Starting the cabinet all at once. It works! And here's how...

[SirPeale]

My plans to have my ATX power supply come on at all times have been thwarted by the limitations of the motherboard I choose to use.  

Pretty much, the idea was to short pin 14 on the ATX connector to ground, powering the motherboard.

It worked - in part - and only for a second.  I've done some research, and aparently the board doesn't like the timing coming from the PWR_GOOD part of the PS.

So, now I have another nifty idea:  a relay, that triggers a momentary connection, turning the board on.

Likely the power would come from 110V, and *just* activate the connection.  Just brige the gap in the pins.

I, knowing nothing of relays, don't know what to look for.  So I'm asking you saavy people for help.

[rsoandrew]

If I understand correctly, what you're trying to do is rig up a button to turn on your computer.

This shouldn't be a problem and you shouldn't need to hook up a relay. Just connect a momentary contact switch to the spot on your motherboard that the case switch would normally go to. You should have a spot to connect a power switch and a spot for reset.

I'm planning on mounting some arcade buttons high on the side of the cab and using those for the power and reset buttons. You could just go to radio shack and get some cheap momentary contact switches that would work fine.

If I didn't understand your problem, please post again and give a few more details.

[Lilwolf]

My old company buys a little board to do just that... Initially they where going to do a relay, but it wasn't 100% safe (for some reason) so they developed a board that was a little more smart.

Anyway, I think they might be more then how much you want.  I think they have been selling them individual for $25 (which is 10 bucks off getting a smart power switch and then moving your button for your PC to the outside of the cabinet... and having that power your cabinet...

but if your interested, I can get real numbers for you.

[SirPeale]

If I didn't understand your problem, please post again and give a few more details.

You sure didn't.

I'm trying to get everything to power on at once.  I tried rigging a power supply to be 'on' all the time, but the motherboard didn't like the PS being wired that way.  It threw the PWR_GOOD timing all off, and wouldn't boot.

So a relay that simply just bridges the connection of the power pins is what I'm looking for.  When power is applied, it just momentarily bridges the contact between the pins - but doesn't stay on.

The motherboard does not supprt resume after power off, so that's not an option.  And I'm not mounting any additional buttons.

[allroy1975]

I was looking for the same thing when I put a PC in my car for mp3s(cuz who wants to go to the trunk to turn on the PC every time you get in the car).  I know a guy that I work with who's super smart with stuff like that and we found a web page that said how to do it, if this isn't answered by monday, I can get you the answer then.  

Unfortunatly I ended up just running some phone cable to a momentary contact switch on my middle console in my car and I have to push the button after the car is started.  


Allroy

[SirPeale]

I'd appreciate it.

[rsoandrew]

Now I understand.

I think a normally closed timed open (NCTO) relay would work. Of course I looked around on-line and didn't find anything. I guess knowing what you need and finding it are two different things.

So I had two other thoughts. You could build a circuit like this one:
 http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/relaytim.htm

Or buy a few normally closed relays and cascade enough of them to give you the delay you need when the power kicks in before the one that controls the circuit for the momentary contact switch finally opens. With this type of circuit, the cheaper relay is probably better. Now this assumes your PS won't complain about having the "switch" depressed when it gets power. Otherwise, you'll have to build the circuit.

[Stormy151]

I'm not sure if I understand what you want to do- but they DO make time delay relays. IIRC, they are fairly expensive for such a small part.  The ones I've seen are pretty good size- they have a knob on the top for adjusting how long it stays open/closed, all kinds of time intervals are availiable, and you can set some to delay when the relay is triggered, or when it's released.

Here's a link to some I found on Mouser's site: http://www.mouser.com/?handler=data.listcategory&N=388&Ne=300

[_Iz-]

If I didn't understand your problem, please post again and give a few more details.

You sure didn't.

I'm trying to get everything to power on at once.  I tried rigging a power supply to be 'on' all the time, but the motherboard didn't like the PS being wired that way.  It threw the PWR_GOOD timing all off, and wouldn't boot.

So a relay that simply just bridges the connection of the power pins is what I'm looking for.  When power is applied, it just momentarily bridges the contact between the pins - but doesn't stay on.

The motherboard does not supprt resume after power off, so that's not an option.  And I'm not mounting any additional buttons.

I don't get why you don't hook the powerbutton to the motherboard pins, and plug the computer into the control outlet of the "smart" powerstrips and everything else into the switched sockets of the same powerstrip?

[SirPeale]

I don't get why you don't hook the powerbutton to the motherboard pins, and plug the computer into the control outlet of the "smart" powerstrips and everything else into the switched sockets of the same powerstrip?

I'm looking to turn it on via the original cab switch.  I've attached an image how the cabinet is wired.  No, I won't deviate from this wiring.  It simply can not be this hard to get an ATX power supply.



As for a timed relay, especially one that is normally closed, that would turn on the computer, then turn it off again four seconds later.

What I'm looking for is a device to momentarily bridge the gap between the pins when power is applied.  It does this once, and only once, upon application of power.  It will, of course, repeat this when the cab is powered on again for the next time.

[rsoandrew]

OK, I think this time you didn't understand me.

The timed relay or normally closed relay would be hooked into where you want the momentary contact to occur. Since the relay is normally closed when you apply power, the relay would open and stay open until the power shut off. It would not turn off the computer because the circuit would remain open until you powered off the main switch (simulating the normally open switch) The main problem I forsaw is making sure that the circuit remained closed long enough to get the "turn on" signal. That's why I suggested the timing circuit or stacking a few relays to build a "delay" into the circuit.

Relay position when power off

pc momentary wire 1-----|        |---------------relay ground
                                   |        |
                                   |        |
                                   |        |              
pc momentary wire 2-----|         |--------------relay power


Relay position when power on

pc momentary wire 1-----|        |---------------relay ground
                                        /    |
                                       /     |
                                     /       |              
pc momentary wire 2-----|         |--------------relay power


Note that you can use much heavier relays than you'd actually need. You'll just want to get some that are powerd by either ac voltage or stick a transformer in your cabinet to drive the relay.

[SirPeale]

Ah, now I see.

And you're right...it would have to be tripped by 110VAC.

[rsoandrew]

Actually, I just had another idea. Try getting a NC relay that works on one of power leads from the PC Power supply. Then when the power supply comes up, it would energize the relay and the circuit would open. That way, you know the relay would stay closed until the power supply came up.

I think ATX power supplies have +12v in them. If you figure out which wire that is, you could get away with using a cheap automotive relay (but make sure it has a NC position).

Good luck.  

[SirPeale]

Uh...that definitely wouldn't work.  I want the relay (or circuit, or whatever) to turn on the power supply, not for it to turn on other stuff when it itself is powered.

[rsoandrew]

That's what it would do.

When you provide your cabinet power using your master switch, the power supply (suddenly getting electricity) would sense that the power on button is depressed telling it to start up and provide juice to the motherboard. This is because the because the NC relay is simulating the momentary contact switch (power on) being pushed.

Now if you wire the relay to the power supply output side at the correct voltage for the relay, when the power supply supplied voltage to the motherboard, hard drive, cpu (you get the idea) your tap into one of these lines would get power and send it to the relay.  

The relay would then open because it's normally close and opens when it gets power which would simulate that the power on momentary contact switch was released. The relay would stay open until the power was shut off.

Off course this would all happen virtually simultaneously but it should do what you want.

[SirPeale]

Ah, now I see.

Now I just have to *find* that relay.

[rsoandrew]

How about this one (it's toward the bottom of the page. Sorry no direct link).

http://www.meci.com/default.asp?mode=getitems&category=463
______________________________________
SPST, N.C., 5 VDC coil.
MFG: WABASH
Manufacturer Part Number: 1831-5-1 C1
MECI Part Number: 480-0384
________________________________________

This should fit the bill.

[Dak-ak]

I think what you want to do is have a switch that you press, everything turns on... you press it again, everything turns off?

Right now i have my machine configured so that everything is triggered with the pc power button... not what you were initially thinking, but i believe it will get the job done... what i used was:

1 cheap power strip
1 molex power connector (female that accepts pc power connector)
1 relay that is triggerable with 12v and can switch the load we're planning on using.

I opened up the power strip, and cut one of the rails (the "hot" rail, if memory serves) so that the first power plug was still "always" hot, but the rest were cut off... I removed enough gunk in the 2nd slot with a big pair of dikes so i can shove the relay into that position, and ran two wires out of one of the power jacks (from the 2nd slot) those went to the molex and to the 12v on the computer.  the rail that i cut and removed was replaced by bridging over the relay.  The computer is plugged into the first plug (always hot) the arcade equipment (the acutall plug that used to go to the wall) goes into one of the plugs that is behind the relay.  the 2nd slot on the power strip was rendered useless.

I hope this description made sense.

The idea being is i turn the computer on, and everything powers up.  I turn the computer off, everything turns off.  works good for me.

[SirPeale]

I'm trying to stick to as close to this diagram as I can.  So hacking a power strip won't work for me.

[Dak-ak]

this relay is both triggerable with AC and can switch AC.  If you used it you could isolate the pc from the powersupply on the cab.

[Popcorrin]

Peale I was looking to do the same thing you are.  I get the jist of what rsoandrew is suggesting but I don't see how you can operate the relay off one of the leads of the power supply.  The way I understand it there is no juice to the leads off of the power supply until you release the power button, not when the button is actually depressed.  

[rsoandrew]

Popcorrin-It's kind of confusing (and I'm still only 98% sure that it would work because of timing issues) but a relay that is normally closed doesn

[Popcorrin]

I understand what you are saying and how a relay works.  The only thing I was questioning and I may be mistaken on this is that the power on the computer doesn't become active when you press the power button but rather after you release it.
You close the circuit and then open it.  Once it opens the power comes on.  If I am correct (which is not a sure thing)  the relay will not open because it needs power and to get power it needs to open.   It won't be hard to test and you may already have.

[SirPeale]

I'll have to consult my EE friend about this.

[rsoandrew]

I understand what you are saying and how a relay works.  The only thing I was questioning and I may be mistaken on this is that the power on the computer doesn't become active when you press the power button but rather after you release it.
You close the circuit and then open it.  Once it opens the power comes on.  If I am correct (which is not a sure thing)  the relay will not open because it needs power and to get power it needs to open.   It won't be hard to test and you may already have.

You are correct. I didn't really consider that possibility.

I just simulated this on my home PC (unplugged it and then held the on button while plugging it back in) The PC did not power up until I RELEASED the button. So in order for this to work the relay would have to be connected to the 110v system and couldn't be connected to the pc power supply.

It still might work with a normally closed relay but you'll have to do some experimenting. I would be afraid that it wouldn't stay closed long enough - but it might.

Of course since I was wrong on my other theory, you may not want to listen to me at all. I sure sounded good though.

[rchadd]

heres a way to turn on monitor/amp etc when PC is booted...

http://home.bendcable.com/werstlein/

[SirPeale]

My best friend is an electrical engineer, so I emailed him a link to this thread.  His response:

I've done this before, I think.  You just put a capactitor in place of the power switch.  A largish cap, say 100uF would work great, but make sure the voltage rating is at least 16v.  This makes it so that when you turn the AC power is applied to the PS, the machine automatically turns on.  
Is this what you wanted?

Can someone give this a shot?  I don't have any caps laying around.

[SirPeale]

I asked exactly how it worked, here was his response:

I've tried it.  It works as I have desribed.  Don't forget that a capacitor starts as a short and eventually becomes an open when it is charged.  This will simulate a short pressing of the switch.  Try looking for the cap in an old power supply, you want one of the large-ish (finger diameter) electrolytics.

[Popcorrin]

If I am not mistaken that setup would be the same as holding in the power button on the pc and releasing it once power is supplied to the power supply.  I have tried this on my pc and it doesn't work.  In essence it's the same as using a relay as had been described earlier in the thread.  What we need is a way to close the circuit momentarily.  Something that would create a short one-time pulse when power is first supplied to it.
Then again I could be wrong.  Let me know if you get it to work Peale.

[whammoed]

Heres a little different idea but it is unfortunately motherboard dependent:
Some motherboards have a feature in the bios that allows it to automatically boot after power failure.
That is how I set up my cab.  I have a main power switch for everything in the cab (much like an original arcade machine)  when I flip the switch the computer boots automatically.

[SirPeale]

If I am not mistaken that setup would be the same as holding in the power button on the pc and releasing it once power is supplied to the power supply.  I have tried this on my pc and it doesn't work.  In essence it's the same as using a relay as had been described earlier in the thread.  What we need is a way to close the circuit momentarily.  Something that would create a short one-time pulse when power is first supplied to it.
Then again I could be wrong.  Let me know if you get it to work Peale.

I'll have to see if I can dig up an old PS or something, I don't have any caps lying around.  The was he describes it, it just might work.

[SirPeale]

Heres a little different idea but it is unfortunately motherboard dependent:
Some motherboards have a feature in the bios that allows it to automatically boot after power failure.

As stated above, this board doesn't support this feature.  Otherwise I'd use it, believe me!

[whammoed]

As stated above, this board doesn't support this feature.  Otherwise I'd use it, believe me!

Sorry, scrolled to fast and missed that thread.  New suggestion: get new motherboard    
Geez, im useless!  

[GadgetGeek]

This thread has intrigued me so I did a google on automatic momentary switch and this was one of the hits.  I know it is for a degaussing coil, but some of the logic seems applicable here.

Link

[Ken Layton]

Try an "Interval On" style time delay relay.

[Popcorrin]

Sounds like Ken has a viable solution.
I got to thinking a person could try using 2 relays wired into the power button circuit with one of them being NO and triggered by the 110V AC cab power supply and the other one being NC and being triggered by a 12V lead off of the computer power supply.  

When the cabinet is switched on it would send 110V to the NO relay thus closing the circuit and simulating pressing the power button which in turn would turn on the computer ( I think).  This in turn would cause the NC relay to open which would simulate released the power button.

[danny_galaga]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,58932.msg1377974.html#msg1377974

1/4 scale space invaders project

[danny_galaga]

I forgot to mention the reason an ordinary relay works here is because of inertia. The power may be  on virtually instantaneously (well, the speed of light anyway) but the contacts have to physically overcome the inertia of being closed. Thus there is power available to use before the contacts open. And voila! the computer switches on!

[rampy]

Peale, may I inquire as to why you are so steadfast in not wanting to deviate from the example arcade power wiring diagram (the bob roberts one) but are willing to wire up all sorts of capacitors/relays elsewhere.

I'm just wondering...

I know you know there's ways of accomplishing this (bit strip/sears strip) but why it HAS to be controlled via the original switch is confusing me... why is that your requirement in this case...

You can pretty much do the same thing with a bit strip (if i understand correctly)... you would wire up the cabinet the saw way, BUT you wouldn't mount the toggle switch to turn on the AC mains... (it could still be there, but inside the cabinet... always "ON")... then run two wires from the power switch header on your mobo to a momentary contact switch (or find a momentary contact toggle switch if you are style concious) and mount it where the original power toggle switch was.... plug the pc's AC cable into the sensing part of whatever smart strip you choose... plug everything else, elsewhere on the strip... Badaboom bada bing... single turn on...

*shrug* there are fancy switching devices like those used to power on car pc/mp3 players as mentioned...  I too will try and dig up a link/info for the sake of completeness...

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your requirements, Peale... but I'm not sure why you are making it harder than it needs to be... *shrug*

Good luck!

rampy

EDIT it's not quite what you need, but it's a similiar idea for car mp3 players as mentioned earlier ebay auction for ITPS LDO Car Power Sequencer --- actually never mind...  apples/oranges

EDIT2 -->  If you *HAD* to go the "automagically short the mobo power switch pins" route (besides a tom and jerry-esque contraption that relies on scaring a chicken into laying an egg and coming down a chute...) I bet your EE friend could make a very simple circuit that when the ATX powersupply kicks on because mains are applied to it... could create some sort of 1 time pulse/latching switch thingie... it's been 10 years since I took electronics... but there's gotta be a simple way  to do what you are asking if you have to go that route...  the capacitor trick seems pretty clever, but i wonder if there's a catch.

[maraxle]

I pulled a motherboard out of an old network appliance and used that in my cabinet.  It was a standard ATX motherboard, and lacked the auto-power-on feature, just like yours.  However, who ever made the appliance put this little board on there that snapped onto the 2 rows of pins where the power button, reset button, power led, reset led, and hd led all plug in.  When I have that board attached, it powers itself on.  When I get home, I can pull that little board out and take some pictures of it.  It might have a manufacturer's name on it, or possibly even be easy for you to duplicate.

[krick]

I'm kind of interested in the outcome of this thread myself.

I'd like to be able to flip the factory toggle switch on my cabinet and have the following happen...

1) power is applied to the monitor, marquee, and computer
2) a <insert magic device here> senses the mains power and triggers the power on switch on the PC

when I flip the toggle switch to off, I'd like this to happen...

1) a <insert magic device here> shuts windows down, turning off the computer
2) a <insert magic device here> senses the computer going off and turns off the mains power to the monitor, marquee, and computer

Obviously, the shutdown part is MUCH harder if not impossible.

My reason for wanting this is that I'd like it to be as much like a normal arcade machine as possible.  i.e. on/off with a single toggle switch.


Has anybody tried using the sleep/hibernation features of Windows in a cab with one of those automatic power stips?  If putting the computer to sleep triggers the power stip, then you might be able to set it up so just walking up to the machine and tapping any button will wake it up and power up the marquee and monitor.  Then you might be able to assign the keyboard "sleep" button to a shift function on the I-PAC to put it to sleep when you are done playing.


All this talk also makes me wonder how modern arcade games that use computers with hard drives (or CD-ROM drives) handle this?  I imagine that you can't just kill power to the system whenever you like because it might be writing to the hard drive at any time.  There must be some sort of shutdown procedure that happens.

[rampy]

I'm kind of interested in the outcome of this thread myself.

I'd like to be able to flip the factory toggle switch on my cabinet and have the following happen...

on/off with a single toggle switch.

Does it *have* to be a toggle switch?  I have a momentary pushbutton in the same spot as the original switch on my cabinet.  I push it once it powers up the PC and the sears power strip turns on the marquee light, audio amp, and monitor...

I hold down the button for a few seconds and it forces windows to shutdown and powers off everything else... no fuss no muss...

I'm sure if you *had* to have a toggle switch you can find one that does momentary on when switched somewhere...

I think IMHO people are making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

I solved my one button to rule them all issue with 20 dollars and a trip to sears. YMMV.

rampy

[whammoed]

Was there any reason this wouldn't work:

http://www.nteinc.com/relay_web/R30.html

I believe this is what Ken was talking about.
Maybe I just missed something again?

[SirPeale]

Peale, may I inquire as to why you are so steadfast in not wanting to deviate from the example arcade power wiring diagram (the bob roberts one) but are willing to wire up all sorts of capacitors/relays elsewhere.

Well, it's twofold.  

First, if I can get this to work, it'll take me about five minutes to wire up a real JAMMA board, and I can use the PC power supply (IF I decided to.  The whole cabinet is JAMMA ready, with this exception)

Second, this has been a thing that a lot of people have attempted to figure out.  A lot of people use the Bits Limited strip, which is okay for them.  But a simple thing to power on the computer?  Seriously, it just *can't* be that difficult!

Has anyone tried the capacitor shorting out the power pins idea yet?

[danny_galaga]

Peale,
honestly, im telling you it ISNT that difficult!! my relay set-up works perfectly, and is much simpler than any other suggestions ive read. No capacitors, no freaky timed relays. Just a garden-variety relay. I switch mine at the wall but it is exactly the same if you switch it from the toggle on the cab if it switches ALL power devices.
Attached is the pic posted earlier. Below it is the diagram for MY cab. Which would you rather? If you put a plug on the the coil end and plug it into a $5 powerboard with all the other accessories, then it's ALL switched with one switch. Mine is all hard-wired for neatness but is exactly the same principle. Mine switches at the wall, yours by the toggle in your cab. Still has to be shut down like a normal computer but from what I can tell, none of the other solutions addresses that either. (I hit 'fire' and 'player two' to activate a macro on mine. Shuts down in maybe two seconds).
Dan.
P.S NC is normally closed, not north carolina. hehe. dont be wiring the motherboard to them!

[krick]

on/off with a single toggle switch.

Does it *have* to be a toggle switch?  I have a momentary pushbutton in the same spot as the original switch on my cabinet.  I push it once it powers up the PC and the sears power strip turns on the marquee light, audio amp, and monitor...

I hold down the button for a few seconds and it forces windows to shutdown and powers off everything else... no fuss no muss...

You're not shutting down windows by holding down the power button for a few seconds.  By holding the button down (usually for 4 seconds) you're just killing power to the motherboard.   You've been fortunate that windows hasn't been trashed.  You must be running Win2K or WinXP.  They're both a little more resiliant to this sort of thing.  Windows 98 will usually scream bloody murder if you do that.

But regardless, I was just stating what my _ideal_ situation would be.  Obviously it would take a lot more effort, time, and money than I'm willing to commit to make it happen.  I'm probably going to end up using a bit-strip power strip or one of the functionally identical home-made solutions that uses a relay.

[SirPeale]

The good news is I'm not running Windows.  Sounds drivers willing, I never will.

[krick]

Anybody know a source for a NC relay like the one that danny_galaga used except compatible with US household voltage?

I'm thinking about giving his method a try.

[Ken Layton]

Try Radio Shaft # 275-217 (around $8.00) relay. It has both normally closed and normally open contacts.

[danny_galaga]

sorry, forgot to mention that many relays have both normally closed AND normally open contacts. just get the cheapest one that has both from an electronics store (radio shack in the us?). and where ever you buy it from, the most common available will be the local mains voltage so in the us it should be 110v.
 as  i mentioned earlier, this works because a relay isnt as fast as youd think so when you turn the power on the contacts are still closed for a millisecond or so. enough to activate the soft-on

[krick]

Try Radio Shaft # 275-217 (around $8.00) relay. It has both normally closed and normally open contacts.

Would #275-241 ($4.29) work?
Link

From the picture on the site the markings on the side say...   1A  120VAC/24VDC

[Ken Layton]

The 275-241 you mentioned has a 12 volt DC coil whereas the the one I mentioned (275-217) has a 120 volt AC coil.

[danny_galaga]

The 275-241 you mentioned has a 12 volt DC coil whereas the the one I mentioned (275-217) has a 120 volt AC coil.

yes, it looks like that is a 12v coil. the 120vac/24vdc shows what kind of current the CONTACTS can handle. For our purposes that is irrelevant since it probably only has to handle microamps. The 275-217 that ken suggests is suitable. Don't be scared off by all those terminals. You are only using four in total. Most relays have circuit diagrams printed on them and many have translucent cases so you can just literally follow where the terminals go. on the 275-217 it looks like the two terminals that are on their own will be the 120v coil and the others i cant quite make out. when you have it in hand it will be obvious which of the other two to use. this relay is a double pole/ double throw so you will have a choice of either of two pairs. all the others are irrelevant.

[rampy]

I hold down the button for a few seconds and it forces windows to shutdown and powers off everything else... no fuss no muss...

You're not shutting down windows by holding down the power button for a few seconds.  By holding the button down (usually for 4 seconds) you're just killing power to the motherboard.   You've been fortunate that windows hasn't been trashed.  You must be running Win2K or WinXP.  They're both a little more resiliant to this sort of thing.  Windows 98 will usually scream bloody murder if you do that.

But regardless, I was just stating what my _ideal_ situation would be.  Obviously it would take a lot more effort, time, and money than I'm willing to commit to make it happen.  I'm probably going to end up using a bit-strip power strip or one of the functionally identical home-made solutions that uses a relay.

Krik, you must not be familiar with advance power management...  when I hold down the power button for a few seconds, it is NOT a "COLD" power off.  It tells windows to force shutdown programs and power down.  I watch it close programs and power down *shrug*.  It's like  a shortcut to "start menu -> shutdown -->shutdown"

I'm well aware of the potential dangers of abruptly shuttind down a windoze machine uncleanly.  Using Advance Power Management is not one of them =)

rampy

[krick]

Hmm.  this feature might only be available in Windows XP....

http://aumha.org/win5/a/shutcut.php

"Customize Your Computer

[krick]

First off, my apologies to Peale as I seem to have taken over his thread.  However, I hope that my additions to this thread will benefit us all, regardless of our exact cab configuration.


Well, I messed with my MAME cab earlier tonight.  I'm running Windows 2000 and it DOES shut down properly when I hit the power button.  I'll be damned if I don't learn something every day.


So here's a summary of the 4 options I have for starting and stopping my MAME cab...


1) factory cabinet toggle switch supplies power to monitor, marquee, and computer.
Additional push-button switch mounted in cabinet starts/stops computer.

2) PC is wired into primary cabinet power feed.  NC relay wired to PC on/off switch and triggered by primary cabinet power.  Switching on cabinet via factory toggle triggers relay to open but this happens slightly after power is supplied to the PC so this turns the PC on.  PC must be shut down via software method, probably  via button shift combination.  Once PC is shut down, cab can be turned off via factory toggle switch.

3) factory cabinet toggle is replaced with push-button wired to PC on/off.  cab power supplied through a Bits Limited SmartStrip.  Computer is plugged into always-on "trigger" outlet.  Cabinet (monitor & marquee) is plugged into switched outlet.  Starting computer with push-button triggers SmartStrip to supply power to other outlets.  Shutting down computer with push button triggers SmartStrip to cut power to other outlets.

4) same as #3 above but using a home made relay setup instead of a Bits Limited SmartStrip.

[SirPeale]

How would this do?

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=500&item=RLY-427&type=store

Or even this?

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=500&item=RLY-2120&type=store

[krick]

Here's an informative link I found about relays...
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/relay.htm


Here's the specs on the two relays in the previous post...


120 VAC DPDT 10 AMP RELAY
Kest # KRLY-2120.
120 Vac, 5000 ohm coil.
D.P.D.T.
10 Amp contacts.
KH "Ice cube" style,clear polycarbonate case.
1.1" x 0.83" x 1.37" high.
Solder or 0.187" qc or solder terminals.
CAT# RLY-2120
Your Price: $2.75 each
 

120 VAC DPDT 35 AMP RELAY
Deltrol Controls # 275P202C120A.
120 Vac, 1500 Ohm coil.
D.P.D.T.
power relay with contacts rated 35 Amps @ 277 Vac.
Clear polycarbonate cover.
1.5" x 1.35" x 2" high.
Can be used with quick-connect terminals (0.25" for contacts, 0.187" for coil), pc mounted.
CAT# RLY-427
Your Price: $4.00 each


The thing that I find confusing about the descriptions of relays is that there should be two sets of ratings.  One for the circuit triggering the switch, another for the circuit being switched.  They make relays that can use a small DC voltage to trigger the switching of a 120V AC circuit.    When they say "120 VAC 35 AMP", how do you know if the ratings are for the triggering circuit or for the triggered circuit?

In my experience with household current, a "20 AMP" circuit in a house was capable of supporting devices consuming up to 20 AMPs at one time without tripping the breaker.  They used heavier 12 gauge wire instead of the 14 gauge wire used in "normal" 15 AMP circuits.   Since a relay isn't really a part that is supporting a load, what does the 35 AMP rating refer to?

As far as I can tell, the main difference between the two relays above is one is 10 AMP with a 5000 ohm coil and the other is 35 AMP with a 1500 Ohm coil.  Why should I choose one over the other?

[danny_galaga]

As far as I can tell, the main difference between the two relays above is one is 10 AMP with a 5000 ohm coil and the other is 35 AMP with a 1500 Ohm coil.  Why should I choose one over the other?

the amperage quoted on a relay is normally the the load the contacts can handle.
normally the coil current isnt as critical. but you have all the info there. ohms law tells us (if put into a pascals triangle):

                                                  V
                                            -----------
                                              I   X   R


that is- voltage equals current times resistance. so the 5000 ohm coil draws 24mA (120v divided by 5000 ohms) and the 1500 ohm coil draws 80. might as well go for the 24ma one. also its a rather unusual situation in that the current the relay is switching is less than the switching current itself!! doesnt matter though. if youre curious about wattage then use this formula:

W= V X I  (I stands for amperage. never knew why. it might have stood for intensity or some other such term). so the first relay uses 2.88 W and the second uses 9.6 W

[Hamselv]

I was wondering, as I read this thread, if you guys have heard of a powerstrip, which is controlled by a USB wire from the PC? This is a fairly new thing here in Denmark, so I don't know if you already have something similar.

Basically, it is a powerstrip w. 4-5 plugs, which is only powered on when it gets a small voltage through an attached USB cable.  So in effect, the PC has to be turned on and the PC's USB plug has to be activated before any of the devices connected to the powerstrip will be turned on.

Here is a link to a Danish site about the thing. http://www.elspareskinnen.dk/ You won't understand a word of it, but the pictures should give you an idea what I am rambling about. These things are awesome for saving power for all the PC peripherals (printers, speaker sets, monitors etc.). You only need power for the printer when the PC is on, right?

Anyway, in a cabinet, now all you will need to do is turn the PC on and off, and then monitor, marquee lights etc. will light up after the PC has booted.

[krick]

I was wondering, as I read this thread, if you guys have heard of a powerstrip, which is controlled by a USB wire from the PC? This is a fairly new thing here in Denmark, so I don't know if you already have something similar.

This performs essentially the same function as the Bits Limited SmartStrip: http://www.smartstrip.net/

The difference is that the SmartStrip senses the current draw on the "trigger" outlet to turn the other outlets on and off.

The USB link method looks like it would probably be cheaper to implement than the load sensing circuitry in the SmartStrip.  There's no data activity on the USB cable.  They're just using the 5v supplied by the USB cable to trigger a relay that switches on the other outlets.

Of course, this device will only work with a computer and it must have a USB port.

[SirPeale]

Well, I'm off to Radio Shaft now.  I'll test it when I get back, and post with the results.

[SirPeale]

Well, I just tried the relay that Ken mentioned in this post.  It didn't work.  It triggers so fast that it doesn't have time to power up correctly.

I'll have to get a timed delay relay.

I'll play with it a little more first.

[danny_galaga]

damn. it works perfectly on mine. i started to draw a diagram of how to introduce a capacitor into the circuit but realised its not quite as simple as i thought. i will have a bit of a think at work today. there will be an elegant solution though. leave it with me. if you do use a capacitor make sure its rated for for at least 110V. and use this formula to calculate time:

time (in seconds) = C X R. time equals capacitance times resistance. easy! write it as a decimal. for instance 1 microfarad times 5000 ohms is 0.000001 x 5000= 0.005 seconds. the example assumes the coil as the resistance but im not sure thats how it will go. as you can see it is probably faster than the relay anyway! like i say let me have a think...

[SirPeale]

It might be the motherboard.  I'll try a couple more and see what the result is.

[danny_galaga]

It might be the motherboard.  I'll try a couple more and see what the result is.

could be. Also, when I started drawing a circuit with a capacitor it became obvious it wouldn

[wj2k3]

How about a double pole toggle switch such as:

OFF-ON-(ON)
OFF-OFF-(ON)

The top pole can activate a relay that powers up the power supply to everything.
The bottom pole can be your momentary on switch for your computer.

NKKswitches.com makes a SP3T-A27 switch that can do this.
Its a A-series 'washable subminiature' toggle switch.

-wj2k3

[krick]

Ugh.  I like a challenge as much as the next guy but I'm starting to think that I might just bite the bullet and...

1) get a SmartStrip
2) replace the toggle switch on my cab with a N.O. pushbutton.

- press the button, it turns on the computer and triggers the rest of the cab to power on

- press the button again, windows shuts down, the computer shuts off and triggers the rest of the cab to power off.

Now if I could only find a really cool looking industrial metal button that will easily swap with my factory cab toggle switch.

[danny_galaga]

How about a double pole toggle switch such as:

OFF-ON-(ON)
OFF-OFF-(ON)

The top pole can activate a relay that powers up the power supply to everything.
The bottom pole can be your momentary on switch for your computer.

this will work. for me im just glad that the relay alone does the trick on my cab because i dont like toggles! i used to be an auto-electrician and i have too many bad memories of wrecking otherwise nice looking dashboards by being asked to install toggles in them! (shudder)
as it is i have a minuture on-on toggle hidden away for the rotating monitor but if i could make the operating system do that id get rid of it...

[danny_galaga]

peale,
did you do anything more with this?

[SirPeale]

I haven't had the time.  I'll try to do something with it this afternoon.

[SirPeale]

Finally tried the capacitor trick my EE friend recommended.  AFAIK this capacitor is of the specs he recommended (the rating has worn off, unfortunately)

It did indeed power the system up - for four seconds.  Since the connection was still intact, it powered it down again.

So I powered it off and powered it on again.  Nothing!  Until I reversed the polarity on the cap, that is.  Did the same thing - booted for four seconds, then shut down.

Rinse, repeat, recycle.  I'll email him again and ask his thoughts.

[SirPeale]

Okay, here's his response:

First things first, don't ever hook up an electrolytic cap backwards!!!!  
Ever!!!!

K, now on to things that won't cause cancer.

The cap you used was too big, as it shut the computer back off again.  
That means that it was still a "short" after the requisite amount of time.  
Try a smaller value (this usually means smaller size too).  Maybe 22uF or
10uF or even smaller.  Make sure that you know the voltage rating before
you try it though (it will say 10V 16V, 35V etc)

Also, with this method, you have to leave the power off for about a minute
for the cap to discharge before you can turn it back on again.  Nature of
the beast, I am afraid.  

[SirPeale]

Got it!  It works flawlessly!

Pulled a 50v 10uf cap out of an old power supply and stuck it into a motherboard accessory connector.  Boots right up!  This is flippin' awesome!  We now have an answer to the ATX power supply problem that has plagued millions for centuries!!!!!!!


Edit: here you go.

[krick]

Got it!  It works flawlessly!

Great.  Can you summarize your exact cabinet setup so we can all duplicate it?  Maybe a pretty diagram might be in order.

Any relays used?
How is the computer wired into the cabinet?
Are there "power strips" involved?
etc...

Tell us all, oh great one.

[SirPeale]

I'm trying to add a picture, but my USB does not appear to be working.  I'm trying to install Service Pack One now, which might clear that up.

But pretty much, that do-dad I spoke of in my last post?  Slip it on the motherboard power on button connector.  

The wiring diagram is actually already in this thread.  On the first page, I believe.

[Witchboard]

Cool.  Glad you figured it out.  I'll have to give it a try when I reach that part of my project.  Don't forget to add this thread to the "links of interest" sticky.  

[SirPeale]

Cool.  Glad you figured it out.  I'll have to give it a try when I reach that part of my project.  Don't forget to add this thread to the "links of interest" sticky.  

Way ahead of you.  Already did it as soon as I figured it out.

You can try it now; it should work on any ATX motherboard.

[SirPeale]

One last thing.  This setup won't do anything about shutting the cabinet, or Window, down.  It just brings the machine up on powerup.

[danny_galaga]

Got it!  It works flawlessly!

Pulled a 50v 10uf cap out of an old power supply and stuck it into a motherboard accessory connector.  Boots right up!  This is flippin' awesome!  We now have an answer to the ATX power supply problem that has plagued millions for centuries!!!!!!!

and even more simply than my relay! Good one. My next cab I

[crashwg]

What happens when you shut down the cab?

I've never taken any electronics classes or anything, but it seem to me that you wouldn't be able to shut down for more than a couple seconds...

What I mean by that is:
When power is applied to the PC, the power button is already being pressed by the cap.  When the cap reaches full capacity it stops pushing the button.

Therefore, when you shut down, the cap would cycle the whole thing over again.  Am I right?  Excuse my ignorance when it comes to electonic components, I can't even correctly solder a modchip to a playstation.  

[danny_galaga]

you

[SirPeale]

When you shut down the cabinet (by turning main power off) the capacitor will discharge.  Since it's such a small cap, it doesn't take very long (less than a minute)

That way, next time you're ready to run the cab again, it all comes on @ once.

[krick]

What happens when you shut down the cab?
<SNIP>
Therefore, when you shut down, the cap would cycle the whole thing over again.  Am I right?

I think what you're asking is (correct me if I'm wrong)...

If you shut down the computer (by clicking shutdown via the start menu), will the capacitor cause the computer start right up again before you get a chance to shut off the main power?

I initially thought this myself at first but I think that what happens is once the capacitor is fully charged, it always acts as an open circuit.  It will not discharge until the mains power is cut off for a significant amount of time.

[SirPeale]

I initially thought this myself at first but I think that what happens is once the capacitor is fully charged, it always acts as an open circuit.  It will not discharge until the mains power is cut off for a significant amount of time.

Less than a minute.  This setup isn't idea for those who are running Windows.

[krick]

Peale,

If you're setting up your cabinet so you can swap in a JAMMA board easily, how are you handling the speaker issues?

I was thinking of something like this...



If you want, you can wire it using stereo plugs and jacks like this...



On the jack connecting to the JAMMA connector, just don't wire the "ring" connection to anything.

I'm pretty sure you can also wire the JAMMA mono signal to both left and right speakers (connect the signal to both tip and ring).  The only caveat is that some JAMMA board amplifiers might not be able to drive two speakers wired in parallel this way.

If you have other boards that have custom stereo output that bypasses the JAMMA connector, you just have to make an adapter cable with a 1/8 inch stereo jack.


Oh, and another speaker related thought.  If you want to avoid having to wire up a power source for the speaker amplifier, you can get a set of USB powered speakers like I'm using.  They tap 5V off of a PC USB port and automatically turn on and off with the computer.  No power brick needed.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16381

Just look on ebay for "usb powered speakers".  I bought 10 pairs of Benwin SP691 speakers for $28.97 (shipping included).  I used one pair in my cabinet and sold 6 pairs on eBay.  I have 3 pairs left for future projects.

...
Krick

[SirPeale]

Since the cab uses the original speakers, I didn't have to do anything; I just wired the speaker out jack to the speaker input on the J-PAC.

[krick]

Since the cab uses the original speakers, I didn't have to do anything; I just wired the speaker out jack to the speaker input on the J-PAC.

I'm using the original cabinet speakers too.

There are two problems to handle....

1) sound coming from computer is stereo and un-amplified
2) JAMMA (J-PAC) expects mono and amplified

[SirPeale]

Ah, now I see.  My soundcard has a built-in amp, so I didn't have to do anything.

What you could do is use the amp from a pair of powered speakers, and wire it in that way.  

[krick]

Ah, now I see.  My soundcard has a built-in amp, so I didn't have to do anything.

What you could do is use the amp from a pair of powered speakers, and wire it in that way.  

That's what I'm doing.  My amp is USB powered as well so I don't have a power brick to worry about.

However I'm still curious about how you deal with the mono vs stereo issue.

[SoundDoc]

Just reading over this thread got me thinking, you want to turn the computer on when the power switch is flipped, off when its flipped off, but it would be advisable to also have the computer instead of just powering straight off (for those running windows) to start shutting down instead.

about $10 in components should do it. a 555 timer, a couple caps, resistors, and a relay. Basically, you need a rising & falling edge trigger, with a delayed pulse one shot.

you'd plug the computer into constant power, and the "device" into the switched mains, and a small cable from the "device" to the power on header on the MB.

When you turn on the cabinet, the relay  picks up, triggering the "device", after a second, it would pulse the power on header for a second, starting the computer.
Same thing on power off of the cab, the drop of the relay would trigger the "device", pulsing the power on header, initiating a shutdown, or hibernation, or whatever you've got it programmed to do. No hard crash of the computer.

I agree that the way Peale has it set up must work, and if your not concerned about crashing the machine, its a easy way to go.

I've seen too many times though a machine just getting its plug pulled killing the HD, or the CPU, as it doesn't get a chance to shut down gracefully. When you just pull the plug on the PSU, the 12v and 5v lines surge momentarily, and can kill components (HD's usually die first).

If anyones interested, I'll draw it up quick. Everything for it would be availiable at radio shack, and for probably less than $10. You'd need to be able to solder though.

SD

[krick]

I agree that the way Peale has it set up must work, and if your not concerned about crashing the machine, its a easy way to go.

Peale is using DOS so there's not likely to be a problem with just "pulling the plug".  If I was building a cabinet for a family member, I've probably use DOS and do it the way he does.  Less stuff to go wrong.  


On the other hand for those of us who need to use Windows....

If anyones interested, I'll draw it up quick. Everything for it would be availiable at radio shack, and for probably less than $10. You'd need to be able to solder though.

YES PLEASE!  If this works, you'll be famous....  Well, with me anyway.

[SoundDoc]

Ok, give me a day here to draw it up.
I still hate just pulling the plug on a machine. When the PSU just looses power, the voltages go all out of whack, and components can take damage. when the control signal from the computer shuts down the psu, it "turns off" the power supply. Lets call it a soft off, vs a hard off.

Anyway, I'll draw it out tomorrow, and calculate out the values.  Should have something by the evening.

SD

[krick]

I found this.  You might find it helpful...

http://www.schematica.com/555_Timer_design/555.htm

[danny_galaga]

going slightly back, i just happened to notice that very occasionally maybe one time in fifty that my cab doesnt power up when i turn it on. you might recall that i am using a relay on its lonesome. i suspect this is because it must be just on the edge of not working (or working i guess). in time it will either get better or worse i imagine as the relay physically wears out. ill keep you posted.
still, when it doesnt power on, i just turn it off and on again and its away!

[krick]

More interesting stuff that someone might find useful:

I found a thread where a guy mentions using a 4.7uf capacitor across the power switch.  Then he mentions that some motherboards don't work with a capacitor and then goes on to  describe a circuit that will work by tapping 5V off of the "wake on lan" header that is present on most modern motherboards.  Later in the thread, he discusses other solutions involving relays, zener diodes, and/or 555 timers:
http://lists.exploits.org/ups/Feb2003/00018.html
http://french.moren.ca/~kenm/cct/index.html
http://lists.exploits.org/ups/Feb2003/00019.html

I've quoted the complete text below for your convenience...

Hi All...

I'm new to the list.  I've been a Linux/Unix sysadmin for several years,
but my main background has been electronics/hardware.

recently I installed NUT for a client and ran into a problem with his
hardware, namely, his ATX motherboard had no provision to auto-startup
after a power failure: no jumper; no BIOS setting.  Experimenting on a
few of  the machines I had sitting around, I found that connecting a
4.7uf. capacitor across the power switch connector on the motherboard
did a fine job of simulating a momentary switch closure.  It would be
best to use a non-polar capacitor (hi-K ceramic or mylar) to save having
to discover what the polarity of the switch connector is and avoid a
polarity mismatch.

However, in this case it did not work on my client's system, whose
motherboard was one of the small percentage which require a short delay
before applying the switch closure :-(

So I developed this circuit:

http://french.moren.ca/~kenm/cct/index.html

Hope it works for you if you need it...

Regards,
Ken


Charles Lepple wrote:

>Out of curiosity, did you look at feeding the wakeup signal back through
>the WOL port? At first glance, I'd say that you could get by with just a
>555 timer and 3 or 4 passive components, but I'll readily admit that I
>haven't taken a look at this in any great detail.
>
>  


I had not thought of trying to use that at the time, however I expect I
would run into the same issue, that of needing a delay after powerup.  
Not knowing the specifics of the WOL interface standard, I didn't go
there...

 For most motherboards, the simple capacitor suffices.

My circuit was based on what I had at hand. Certainly with a little
ingenuity, one could probably build a working device around a single
555... I didn't have one handy.  With the 4528, which I did have, it was
relatively easy: the first one-shot to set the delay; the second to set
the output pulse length. I used the little relay because I had it, and
to eliminate any polarity issues at the motherboard power-on connector.

If one used the relay with a 555 to provide the delay, they could use it
to switch in a capacitor to the motherboard connector as in the simple
solution... in that case you could eliminate many of the components of
my circuit as the 555 could drive the relay directly without the
buffering transistor that I used. A 555 used as a one-shot uses one more
capacitor than its 4528 equivalent. It may not have the problem that the
4528 has of delivering an immediate power-on output pulse in addition to
the delayed pulse, which I devoted two capacitors and a resistor to solving.

Thinking about it now, I can visualize a circuit using a resistor, two
capacitors, a zener diode and the relay that would do the job, if we
wanna talk "minimum component"  ;-)

[SirPeale]

On the other hand for those of us who need to use Windows....

The only reason to use Windows that I can think of (unless you're using another emulator that is Windows only) would be sound driver issues.  There aren't many DOS sound drivers for current stuff.  Unless they hide really well.

[SoundDoc]

Haven't built it up to test yet.  Just did it on a coffee break, so its pretty rough, but this should do the job. Decided to steal power from the WOL header instead of a wire from the PS connector, just makes it a bit neater. And I was just going to use a transistor to switch the power connector, but this way its fully isolated from the pc and can't hurt anything if you build it wrong. (well, it could hurt you   )
Some MB's also have the 5v standby power availiable on a pin on the MB header, so you could get it from there as well.
If I get a chance tonight, I'll throw one together and test it out. I've got to do something while I wait for the paint on my cab to dry.....  

SD
*edit* deleted the pic as it REALLY messed up the thread.....  
look futher down for the updated circuits......

[krick]

Haven't built it up to test yet.  Just did it on a coffee break, so its pretty rough, but this should do the job. Decided to steal power from the WOL header instead of a wire from the PS connector, just makes it a bit neater. And I was just going to use a transistor to switch the power connector, but this way its fully isolated from the pc and can't hurt anything if you build it wrong. (well, it could hurt you   )
Some MB's also have the 5v standby power availiable on a pin on the MB header, so you could get it from there as well.

You are the man.  I can't wait to get some parts together and give it a try.

I hadn't thought about the need for 5V of standby power.  Do all current motherboards have WOL connectors?    Do PS/2 keyboard connectors supply 5v standby?   I think some USB ports do.

If you can get this design polished and it works well, you might want to talk to someone about getting some boards made.  I'm sure you could sell them.

[SoundDoc]

Lots of new motherboards do have the WOL connection, as do most atx style older ones. If the MB has onboard Lan though, they usually leave it off. its hit or miss otherwise.
Some have it on the main button header, others if they have power on KB always power the ps/2 keyboard port, and some do provide it on the USB connectors, usually with a jumper But you can always find it on the MB power conector.
Some people though I don't think are confident/savy enough to solder/splice into their motherboard, so I threw the WOL connector possibility out there so you wouldn't have to modify the MB or PSU.
What MB are you using? I'll take a look and find the best place to get it from.

SD

[krick]

What MB are you using? I'll take a look and find the best place to get it from.

I'm not really worried about me.  I'll find standby power somewhere.   Even if I have to dive into the power supply to find it.  

I'm just concerned about other people who might not be a technically savvy.

I have 3 Pentium4 motherboards in my house.  All have integrated LAN.  Most new boards do as well.   So the WOL header might be a problem.

My MAME cab is currently running on an ASUS P4S533 (the original version) but I may be swapping it with an ABIT IS7-E (original version) in the future.

UPDATE:

I found this diagram...

...on this page...
http://www.duxcw.com/faq/ps/ps1.htm
...that shows which wire (#9) on the ATX connector is the 5V standby.  If all else fails and I can't find a convenient spot on the motherboard, I'll tap off of that wire.

I had a thought.  It would be pretty cool to implement this circuit on a card that can be plugged into a PCI slot (without making any electrical connections).  

[krick]

Haven't built it up to test yet.  Just did it on a coffee break, so its pretty rough, but this should do the job.

What's the deal with the 3 diodes in the circuit?
They're not listed in the parts list.

[SoundDoc]

I'll have to fix that...  
The three diodes make up part of the trigger circuit. 2 isolate the two "triggers" and the third clamps the trigger signal from flying too high above vcc.

I'm changing it a bit as I go as well, adding here and there to make it more user friendly.

sd

[SoundDoc]

I just wired it up, and it works just fine.  
Actually, heres a question on how you want it to operate.

1) It can trigger on every flick of the switch, no matter how fast you flick the switch.
2) it can trigger on every flick, but takes about 15 seconds for each "direction" of the switch to recycle before triggering again. This may come in handy if the computer on/off got out of sync with the cab on/off. (for in a case like Peales)

Actually, out of curiosity, because I've seen a couple other posts of yours, do you want the cab to turn on the pc, or the pc to turn on the cab?

This circuit will work great in a case where you don't want to mod the cabinet, and when it powers up the computer will, and when it turns off it will cycle the power button again, shutting down the computer. (I can also adjust it so a power on "presses" the power button for .5 seconds, and a power off "presses" the button for 4 or 5 seconds (hard power off).

But if your going to Mod the cabinet, to have the pc power also turn on the monitor, and marquee, wouldn't it be easier to just put in a momentary button, or if you wanted a toggle switch, use a STDP switch and wire the two ons to this circuit? You'd save 120vac wiring, and a 120vac relay.

Just curious what your frankensteining.....

sd

[krick]

Just curious what your frankensteining.....

I, like Peale, want to keep the cabinet as close to stock as possible so that I can easily change it back to a dedicated single JAMMA game in the future.  So I'd really like to have the cabinet control the PC via the stock toggle switch.

However, if that is too difficult to implement, I know that having the PC turn on the cabinet is far easier.  Essentially, it requires a momentary pushbutton switch and a relay with a 12V coil that can be triggered off an ATX power connector and is capable of switching 120V AC.

My latest brainstorm is using an ATX power supply that has an auxillary AC outlet on the back.  Vantec makes one that I *believe* is switched on and off with the PC.  I think they just integrated a relay into the PS.

So, yes, as you've seen in some of my other posts, I'm exploring all avenues and will probably try them all see which one I like best.

As for your circuit and how it triggers...  I don't think that triggering on every flick is a good idea for the reasons you mention.  Basically, what happens when the PC on/off gets out of sync with the cab on/off?  Like you say, there needs to be some sort of cycle time.

The idea about using the STDP toggle to trigger your circuit a good one too.  In that case, since it's not connected to the mains power, you could use a transistor instead of a relay to make it cheaper.


Maybe I'll start a web page to document all these different methods so other people don't have to keep re-inventing the wheel.

[SoundDoc]

I'm actually working on a website for it right now...

Its working great, sitting on the table in front of me. It isn't turning the computer on and off, but the relays closing and opening like its supposed to, I also added a supervisory led to show when its active, and a small pot to adjust the pulse length. Gimmie a min and I'll have the pic posted.
I just looked through my "junk" and I've got maybe 8 or 10 power supplies with the switched output plug. Their all bad though, and for parts.  

sounds like your looking at plugging the rest of the cab into the power supply to switch it. In that case it couldn't get out of sync.

You could also use a scr, or small 12V relay powered off a HD connector to switch the cab as well.

SD

[SoundDoc]

heres a quick pic.
lets see, top left - simulated poles of the 120vac switched relay, bottom left 5A reed relay for power switch, and lit supervisiory led, right - adjustable pulse, .01 sec to 1 second. forget the top right, just other parts.

Have to go put another coat of paint on the cab, I'll throw together a version after that has seperately adjustable on and off pulse lengths.

sd

[SoundDoc]

Still havent gotten the cab painted....

Here we go:
- individually adjustable on and off pulse lengths, 0-10 seconds.
- selectable recycle incase the computer gets out of sync.
- supervisory led to see if the things actually working.

I should have a webpage for it later tonight, or tomorrow morning with schematics and parts info. I'll post it when its up. If anyone really wants one pre-built, let me know and I'll see what it would cost to do.

sd

[SoundDoc]

Still haven't gotten that coat of paint on the cab.....
Maybe tomorrow night.....

*edit*
as for the pci card..... ummm... no, I'm not going to go there. It would be nice to build it that way, but this is just a quick circuit I threw together, and don't want to get into trying to extend it that way. I think its best to keep it as a completly isolated device to the system. You could always build it onto a board that takes up a rear slot location, but the signals can't easily be fed into the MB that way. (plus the support nightmare that would result would kill me... )
/*edit*

I've thrown the designs I did up on my cabs page:
http://daCab.DatPlace.com

the link straight to the circuits is:
http://dacab.datplace.com/Design.htm
(about half way down)

*edit*
play with it at your own risk, I take no resposibility if you kill yourself... )
/*edit*

I've tested them both now, both on pc's, and they work great.   no problems after around 20 cycles with it getting out of sync. (asus p4c800-e-dx MB). System hibernated on power off, resumed on power on each time.

If you use them on your cab, please throw up a credit on your website for me, and enjoy!

If your not that tech. savy, I can supply them on a limited basis.  Contact me if your interested: DaCab@datplaceREMOVEME.com

sd

[krick]

You ARE the man.  When I get a chance, I'll swing by Radio $hack and pick up some parts and give it a go.

as for the pci card..... ummm... no, I'm not going to go there. It would be nice to build it that way, but this is just a quick circuit I threw together, and don't want to get into trying to extend it that way. I think its best to keep it as a completly isolated device to the system. You could always build it onto a board that takes up a rear slot location, but the signals can't easily be fed into the MB that way. (plus the support nightmare that would result would kill me... )

I was never suggesting using the PCI signaling.  I was just saying that it could hang off a bracket and just plug into part of the PCI slot for vertical stability but with NO electrical connections.  I've seen some OEM USB brackets designed that way.

I've tested them both now, both on pc's, and they work great.   no problems after around 20 cycles with it getting out of sync. (asus p4c800-e-dx MB). System hibernated on power off, resumed on power on each time.

I was just thinking about the potential "out of sync problem".  Couldn't the device monitor one of the 5V leads off the power supply (not the 5V standby).  If there is 120V power but not 5V power, it could trigger the switch to turn the computer on, and if there is 5V but not 120V, trigger the switch to turn the computer off.  I'm just throwing stuff out there and seeing what sticks.  I have no idea if this is even possible.

[SoundDoc]

It could do that as well I suppose.... Just thinking here.
(It'd be a lot easier to do all this with a micro at this point  )

Trying to do it with discrete components, you

[krick]

I was looking around on the web and I saw an interesting way to tap into the ATX wires without actually modifying the power supply.

The trick is to use a short ATX extension cable.  You can solder additional wires into that cable where necessary and then insert it between the ATX connector on your PS and the ATX connector on your motherboard.

[SoundDoc]

Okey, I put a couple more ideas into it, and I've got something that should work as I think you want...  

Its not 100% polished, or tested, but they should both work and do the same thing. I just got my order from Bob Roberts (YAY!!) and I think I'm going to be busy for a while building my CP and finishing my cab, so I'm not going to have much time to tweak these out.

Anyway, basically it ties into 5Vcc, 5Vsb, and 120Vac, compares the cab status On/off with the computer status On/Off.
If the turns on, and the computers off, it sends a adjustable 0-2 second "ON" pulse, every 0-20 seconds (adjustable) until it gets 5vcc from the computer then it stops. Same the other way as well, if the Cab switches off, and the computers on, it sends a 0-10 second (adjustable) pulse every 0-60 seconds (adjustable until 5vcc drops, showing the computer as off.  That last delay may need to be adjusted longer, depends on how long your machine would normally take to shut down. Each of the pulse legths, and repeat delays are individually adjustable for your pleasure.

The jpg is almost unreadable, but the PDF is up on my site:
http://dacab.datplace.com/Design.htm about 2/3 the way down.

Theres 2 circuits that do the same thing, one uses TTL logic for the comparitor, and 555 timers for the pulse control. The other uses discrete transistors for the comparitor (easier to find and cheper) and uses only 2 556 timers for the pulse control. Mix and match, and enjoy!

If anyone really wants one, I could be pursuaded/bribed to build it up and test, I just don't have the timeto work on this anymore if theres no interest, I've got some funky circuits to build for my cab.....

I GOTTA GO BUILD A CAB!!! (ok still 3 hours of work, but then I'm going to... Three people have allready walked by and "fondled" my new trackball. I might try to sneak out of here early)

sd

[danny_galaga]

holy...! i think ill stick to my lonesome, works 98% of the time, relay!

[Lilwolf]

btw, the 3rd post was stating that my old emplorers had to get a way to do this.  And they had an expert build something... they couldn't use a relay for some reasons...

And that they had a solution for about $25..

After doing all this... Do you think that was a realistic price?  (seriously... I've considered trying to get them to sell a few here or at least mention it... just didn't know if it was worth it)

[SoundDoc]

$25 to build, or to sell for $25?
It would me MUCH easier to do this with a small Micro. a pic with a reed relay, and maybe 3 or 4 other components would do it, and be fully programmable. parts would probably run around $10-20  if you were making just one, mass production woud be much less expensive.

If you've just got the parts kicking around, I know theres a cost, but I've got  easily 5000+ IC's and all the other components around to experiment with. So for proto'ing something up for a one off "different" app, this is probably easier. (don't have to code anything etc...)

This started off fairly simple, with a single 556 and a couple of components, and if I ever needed to build this up, thats probably how I'd go.

Just got the first coat of color on my cab! YAY! Another coat tonight, and build up the CP and I should be Rockin' by wednesday!

sd

[Lilwolf]

I think it was 20 - 25 out the door.  Small board so a few bucks more for shipping.

The trouble is the ones my old company are selling had to be certified something (don't remember what) because they are used in manufacturing floors and needed to be OSA? certified.

And they are run on slightly smaller runs.  I think 100 at a time or so.  

But I really haven't dealt with them because my old boss started using them right before I left.  So I heard some of the troubles.  I know why they are being used.  But I never used them.

[independentthread]

I am by no means an electronics expert, but I have a question about the whole thread in general...
The final solution looks extremely comlicated for someone who only has soldering skills and no electronics knowledge.  Is the simple solution of a capacitor strapped to the back of a plug going to hurt the motherboard, or is the cap simply going to wear out after time?

That seems like a bigger question in my book.  Is it worth trying (and probably failing) to make something like the circuit board from the end, or is it more ideal to replace something that I can probaly pull from something old and unworking.

[danny_galaga]

it should be that the cap will last as long as any other cap in the motherboard. so it should go for years!

[SirPeale]

The only thing the cap does is act as a bridge.

By nature, caps start out shorted, and open up as current is applied.  

Since it's such a small cap, and the voltage is tiny (5V) the cap will likely outlast the cab.

[danny_galaga]

i should just point out here for any who arent familiar with electronic parts is that a capacitor wants to absorb energy instantly. its like a battery that instantly charges or discharges. so when its not charged it behaves like a short. once it has charged up to the applied voltage its voltage potential is the same as the applied voltage and so it behaves as if its open circuit. its not often desirable to have it charge or discharge instantly (for instance, my watch is a seiko kinetic. its powered by a capacitor which is charged up by a swinging weight). luckily adding resistance to the circuit slows it down proportional to the resistance.
just mentioning this in case anyone wondered how it works. there are no moving parts.

[independentthread]

its not often desirable to have it charge or discharge instantly

This once again begs the question, is it not disrable for for JUST the capacitor, or will it harm the motherboard in time?  I live in an apartment complex where people consistently buy replacement electronics and have the decency to leave the old ones NEXT to the dumpster.  I have an endless supply of junk television sets and broken radios and the like.  If the capcitor is the the only thing that is going to be damged, the only tears I might cry will be from sweat dripping in my eye as I rip apart a 30 year old TV cabinet.

[SirPeale]

No damage will come to the motherboard.  It's just releasing the current (which is miniscule) which was built up in it.  Really, the cap is so tiny.  Just make sure you use a cap that's rated small (like 10uF)

[independentthread]

Awesome, I'm taking mine that route then.

[danny_galaga]

i guess this is why im not a college lecturer!! Im always forgetting things in my explanations. The two reasons its not desirable is that you usually want to have a timed charge or discharge, and yes in some cases the second reason is that it might cause damage somewhere else. Its safe  in the situation on the motherboard because 1) there is already a high effective resistance in that circuit and 2) as Peale said you are using a fairly small capacitance. The time is effected by capacitance x resistance. Capacitors have very small ratings. This keeps the formula simple since it is ohms x farads = time in seconds. The measurements for resistance and time (ohms and seconds) already existed when capacitance was first measured, so that means a farad is quite large. I think a 1 Farad cap would be roughly the size of a filing cabinet and would probably discharge through a brick wall!!

edit: i've since found i was way off on the cap size. it seems a 1 farad cap is about the size of two cans of beer end to end (low voltage rating for stereos).

[Nefesis]

if i was using one of these switches from happs, does anyone know which i would use? they're under Amusement-Accessories-On/Off Switch (sorry, but i'm not sure how to put a link to happ's pages   )

[General Zod]

PEALE :  


Following the diagram you made, and trying also to keep everything simple and authentic ... How do I make sure everything is grounded properly?

I mean, do I run the EarthGround wire throughout my cab? Same applies to the E.ground wire from the PC cord, and the little piece hanging off the ISO ( in the diagram )... Where does all that go to?

Also, shouldn't something attach to the monitor frame for grounding?


Any help you could/would provide will be taken like scripture. Thank you in advance.

Mike

[SirPeale]

Following the diagram you made, and trying also to keep everything simple and authentic ... How do I make sure everything is grounded properly?

I mean, do I run the EarthGround wire throughout my cab? Same applies to the E.ground wire from the PC cord, and the little piece hanging off the ISO ( in the diagram )... Where does all that go to?

Also, shouldn't something attach to the monitor frame for grounding?

Yes, all the metal pieces should be connected to earth ground.  Not a *gospel* requirement, but it's a good way to prevent equipment damage in the event of a static buildup.

I just checked the diagram, and surely the monitor and other items are connected to earth ground.  See the little connector with the green thing hanging off?  That's the earth ground.  Should likely redraw the diagram, but this was just a quicky using Bob Roberts diagram as a template.

[General Zod]

Very Good !!    

Thank you Peale. I appreciate your help.


mike

[General Zod]

One more dilemma ...  

In the picture, the main AC cord is fused before going into the filter ..... what amp fuse is acceptable for that block?

Also ... is it safe to run additional fuses for the monitor and PC? If so, same amps? Would the fuse for monitor go to the top wires or the bottom?

Thanks in advance for your help...

Michael

[SirPeale]

I asked that same question once, and never got an answer.

[General Zod]

I asked that same question once, and never got an answer.

I see .... and since there are only a select few who even choose to power their cab by this method instead of the SmartStrip .... chances are, nobody knows!  

Perhaps a 2amp might work, as does in a normal game.  

Thanks anyway...

Mike

[SirPeale]

Quite likely that would work.  I wouldn't fuse the computer, but everything else should be.  It's those components that I was concerned about fusing, that no one knew what rating fuse to use.

[marcus.]

Ive only just seen this thread tonight and have to add to peales comment on grounding.  
It is important that all of the cabs metal parts that have some sort of continuity into the inside if the cab (via screws/fixtures or wiring etc) are grounded. not ony for peales static reasons, but also for your safety.
If a live wire were to come off you monitor or PSU or wiring and touch an ungrouded control panel bolt(for instance), that CP would be live when you touch it...human fuse. Dont count on paint as a good insulator.
A general rule as peale says, IMO a necessay one.

[General Zod]

Okay ....  

Here's my progess thus far, but I think I've run into a situation. My wiring is almost finished with the exception of one problem....(if in fact this is a problem)

Wiring everything to the DistributionBlock as shown in the diagram , I am down to three simple connections ... but only two available on the block.

I'd like to save the IsolationTransformer for one connection, but that still leaves the marquee ( home depot special ), and my hacked speakers to connect.

Is it safe to wire those together and connect them to the last position on the PowerBlock? This is where I'm probably also going to need a fuse ... do ya think?  

Again .... thank you in advance for your help.


Michael

[SirPeale]

I don't see why not.  That's what I did.

[General Zod]

I don't see why not.  That's what I did.

Whooohooo!!  

I just wanted to say a quick word of thanks to you Peale !! Without your help I don't think I could have wired this cabinet the way I truly wanted. Hats off to ya , my friend !!

I've helped a few people with their MAMEcabs, but I was always doing the pc-side of it .... definitely a little different  when it comes to doing the entire haul.

I tried making the wire job as neat as possible, or at least in order. I learned you can never have enough clamps & tie-wraps.  

Anyhow ... I don't have a website to host any pictures, but I at least wanted to show you this one .

Thank you again for your help.

Michael

[SirPeale]

Looks good!  Just about what mine looks like, but yours is nicer.  I haven't had the time to get it 'sparkly' yet.

[Mameotron]

Well, good job on getting the problem solved!  If I need to do any of this, I know right where to go.

Just as an afterthought, I realized recently that the mobo in my cab DOES power on when the power switch is pressed, not when it is released.  It is a Dell Optiplex GX100, rescued from the trash at work.  This tidbit may come in handy to someone someday.

[danny_galaga]

just an update on my set up. no one will probably remember but i used a relay on my system. i had noted that once in a while the system just wouldnt start up and i promised id give an update on whether it became more or less frequent. well it seems to start every time now. i suspect that as the relay 'wears' in (or out) the speed it takes to switch off has decreased (i think, it's been so long since i set it up i cant remember!)

[SirPeale]

My cap trick is still working great as well.  I do need to make a slightly better solution, as sometimes the legs from  the cap pull out just a little bit, and it doesn't boot.  Not a technical problem, but an assembly issue.