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Author Topic: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue  (Read 1328 times)

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grendelrt

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MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« on: May 14, 2024, 03:04:51 pm »
Looking for a starting point before I pull the monitor in my blast city (it sucks and takes 2 people haha). I have this ripple\shiver that vertically works its way down the monitor. I have had this show up in the past and go away on its own before. I also have noticed if I unplug the cabinet and let it discharge over a couple days it goes away. Took a video, you can see it if you look on the right edge. Its worse when running in 640x480 and has some lines that appear like tearing. Also doubt this is settings thing, but that would be nice if its something tweakable to fix. https://youtube.com/shorts/kZX9LtKxdCI?

lilshawn

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2024, 01:38:07 pm »
I'm not one to normally just suggest throwing parts at a monitor... but, this is one of those issues you see where throwing in a capkit IS the thing to do here.. This monitor is getting on 30 years old now... change the capacitors on the chassis.

capacitor lifetimes are measured in HOURS not years, with some of the best electrolytic caps having 10,000 hour lifetimes (just over a year of continuous use) before they drift beyond their specified % amount.

capacitors (especially tantalum capacitors) are used in monitors to filter power primarily... but they are also used to time when to start and stop the deflection circuits to properly start the beam scans and whatnot... if the caps are getting old and are out of their designed spec... their charge up times and discharge times aren't accurate enough and the picture starts wandering all over the place and doing odd things.

find yourself a ready to install "capkit" for your monitor from a reputable company... theres a few arcade oriented companies that have put kits with instructions together for purchase.

grendelrt

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2024, 03:13:13 pm »
I'm not one to normally just suggest throwing parts at a monitor... but, this is one of those issues you see where throwing in a capkit IS the thing to do here.. This monitor is getting on 30 years old now... change the capacitors on the chassis.

capacitor lifetimes are measured in HOURS not years, with some of the best electrolytic caps having 10,000 hour lifetimes (just over a year of continuous use) before they drift beyond their specified % amount.

capacitors (especially tantalum capacitors) are used in monitors to filter power primarily... but they are also used to time when to start and stop the deflection circuits to properly start the beam scans and whatnot... if the caps are getting old and are out of their designed spec... their charge up times and discharge times aren't accurate enough and the picture starts wandering all over the place and doing odd things.

find yourself a ready to install "capkit" for your monitor from a reputable company... theres a few arcade oriented companies that have put kits with instructions together for purchase.
Yup Yup that's my first line of defense, just wanted to make sure it wasn't something specific when I pull i out other than a cap. I have already recapped my spares, I cant remember if I did this one at the time. I do have a kit for it I think sitting around, its my fav chassis to use since it trisync and autosync. Guess I need to set some time aside for a full recap :/

lilshawn

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2024, 02:00:24 pm »
if you decide to go a cap kit, most of the cap kits are pretty decent with regards to quality... just keep an eye out for kits that has a suspiciously good price. they are often made with really inferior caps.... and while they will work just fine, their longevity can be quite short. a good quality $60 kit will contain every capacitor on the chassis and will be by good manufacturers, and will last you another 30 years. a cheap $12 kit will have the bare minimum of the most commonly replaced caps on that chassis, (sometimes only a half dozen caps) and last you till next year before having to replace them again.

if you decide to roll your own kit just ordering online... be sure you purchase high quality, high temperature, (and if applicable, for your SMPS filter caps...) low ESR caps... and order from a reputable company. (panasonic, nichicon, nippon chemicon  etc. basically anything japanese or if you can find them, american companies... Kemet, Vishay, and so on.) from an equally reputable distributor (mouser, digikey etc.) you are gonna want to avoid ebay, amazon...and sometimes... local electronic suppliers. (mainly you have no idea where they sourced them from.) as they often have quality name brand caps...but have been re-sleeved china caps. (i have a post somewhere on this site with a photo example of a re-sleeve)

avoid like the plague brands like G-Luxon, suscon, capxon... and anything that looks like a smattering of letters of a china sounding manufacturer... Fuhjyyu, Ltec, Omiyo, Wangcho.

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2024, 12:13:23 pm »
Looking for a starting point before I pull the monitor in my blast city (it sucks and takes 2 people haha). I have this ripple\shiver that vertically works its way down the monitor. I have had this show up in the past and go away on its own before. I also have noticed if I unplug the cabinet and let it discharge over a couple days it goes away. Took a video, you can see it if you look on the right edge. Its worse when running in 640x480 and has some lines that appear like tearing. Also doubt this is settings thing, but that would be nice if its something tweakable to fix. https://youtube.com/shorts/kZX9LtKxdCI?

If you don't care about your monitor I can buy the chassis from you :)

grendelrt

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2024, 11:50:59 am »
if you decide to go a cap kit, most of the cap kits are pretty decent with regards to quality... just keep an eye out for kits that has a suspiciously good price. they are often made with really inferior caps.... and while they will work just fine, their longevity can be quite short. a good quality $60 kit will contain every capacitor on the chassis and will be by good manufacturers, and will last you another 30 years. a cheap $12 kit will have the bare minimum of the most commonly replaced caps on that chassis, (sometimes only a half dozen caps) and last you till next year before having to replace them again.

if you decide to roll your own kit just ordering online... be sure you purchase high quality, high temperature, (and if applicable, for your SMPS filter caps...) low ESR caps... and order from a reputable company. (panasonic, nichicon, nippon chemicon  etc. basically anything japanese or if you can find them, american companies... Kemet, Vishay, and so on.) from an equally reputable distributor (mouser, digikey etc.) you are gonna want to avoid ebay, amazon...and sometimes... local electronic suppliers. (mainly you have no idea where they sourced them from.) as they often have quality name brand caps...but have been re-sleeved china caps. (i have a post somewhere on this site with a photo example of a re-sleeve)

avoid like the plague brands like G-Luxon, suscon, capxon... and anything that looks like a smattering of letters of a china sounding manufacturer... Fuhjyyu, Ltec, Omiyo, Wangcho.

I had already bought a kit from Syracuse Semiconductors when I bought the 2933 chassis, they are labeled 105C, think these are legit? They are about 6 years old and I need to order some of the larger caps it looks like. Might start with these while I wait until I get the others.


lilshawn

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2024, 03:12:40 pm »
they look okay. at least they are 105c caps and not a bag of 85c caps (105c and 85c are the max temperature the caps are designed to withstand)

it's hard to tell without measuring the value of the caps with a LCR meter (or it's equivalent) if they are actually "good" or not. their tolerance SHOULD be within 20% which is really lousy... This means that an aluminum electrolytic capacitor with a nominal capacitance of 470uF is expected to have a measured value of anywhere between 376uF and 564uF if my maffs are to be trusted... but I typically like it as close as I can be if i can help it.

grendelrt

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2024, 03:16:42 pm »
they look okay. at least they are 105c caps and not a bag of 85c caps (105c and 85c are the max temperature the caps are designed to withstand)

it's hard to tell without measuring the value of the caps with a LCR meter (or it's equivalent) if they are actually "good" or not. their tolerance SHOULD be within 20% which is really lousy... This means that an aluminum electrolytic capacitor with a nominal capacitance of 470uF is expected to have a measured value of anywhere between 376uF and 564uF if my maffs are to be trusted... but I typically like it as close as I can be if i can help it.
I have an esr meter i was going to use before putting each one and also take a reading of the one I am removing for future knowledge :) I have to order it looks like 4 caps that werent in the kit and 3 caps are slightly higher voltage, checking digikey it looks like those caps arent really made in the older voltages.

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2024, 03:39:52 pm »
higher voltage is absolutely fine. the volt rating is the max voltage it can take before the insulation that separates the plates in the cap fail and allows an electrical short to happen.

usually when we design circuits, we double the voltage the rail that the capacitor is on then bump it up to the next highest rating to provide lots of overhead in case of power surges... for instance for a 24v rail, i would spec a 50v cap (24+24=48 and 50 volts is the next value.) or for an 15v rail i would spec a 35v capacitor (15+15=30 and 35 volts is the next value) but for simplicities sake, i may just use the same 50v cap so i only have to buy one type opposed to 2 different ones. but if all i had was 63 volt capacitors i could absolutely use those too.

the only thing you don't really want to do is go down. so even though the 24v line only has 24v...and I can get a 25v capacitor... it doesn't leave much room for overhead before the capacitor insulation degrades and it shorts out inside... and you really don't want to put a 16 volt cap on a 24volt line.

grendelrt

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2024, 10:19:26 am »
higher voltage is absolutely fine. the volt rating is the max voltage it can take before the insulation that separates the plates in the cap fail and allows an electrical short to happen.

usually when we design circuits, we double the voltage the rail that the capacitor is on then bump it up to the next highest rating to provide lots of overhead in case of power surges... for instance for a 24v rail, i would spec a 50v cap (24+24=48 and 50 volts is the next value.) or for an 15v rail i would spec a 35v capacitor (15+15=30 and 35 volts is the next value) but for simplicities sake, i may just use the same 50v cap so i only have to buy one type opposed to 2 different ones. but if all i had was 63 volt capacitors i could absolutely use those too.

the only thing you don't really want to do is go down. so even though the 24v line only has 24v...and I can get a 25v capacitor... it doesn't leave much room for overhead before the capacitor insulation degrades and it shorts out inside... and you really don't want to put a 16 volt cap on a 24volt line.
Only missing one cap now, the big orange one. I found some 6.8uf 250v on digikey but I am not sure what the full range of specs I would need to appropriately replace it. Has anyone replaced this cap and have a good replacement?

6.8uf 250V (found one post where they used the following , but its 10uf instead of 6.8uf?  https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/nichicon/UPM2E100MHD1TO/3130324)
 

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2024, 10:49:12 am »

grendelrt

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2024, 11:21:42 am »
Hello... I think this is your cap.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/nichicon/ULD2E6R8MPD1TD/4695240
Thanks, I think the lead spacing is too small on those. The cap its replacing is also much larger and wasn't sure how to know what ripple current to look for or if it mattered.

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2024, 02:10:07 pm »
typically these large low value caps are used to tune the horizontal sizing a bit. (without seeing the schematic i'm not 100% on that tho)

but, 10uf is close enough to 6.8 that your width will still be adjustable enough to compensate for the difference. Don't forget that electrolytic caps have a rather wide range (20%) of acceptable value for it to be, to be considered "in specification"

as far as caps go... i honestly don't know the difference between a tiny fart can sized 4.7 uf 50v Bi-polar cap that I usually see at the parts places and online and the huge 4.7uf 50v bi-polar cap that (other) monitor chassis use for width sizing. I got a fair stock of the proper big ones, so i'm not really worried about it...yet... but i'll be damned if i know what the actual difference is or if the little bi-polar caps can be used in exchange.


grendelrt

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2024, 03:04:29 pm »
typically these large low value caps are used to tune the horizontal sizing a bit. (without seeing the schematic i'm not 100% on that tho)

but, 10uf is close enough to 6.8 that your width will still be adjustable enough to compensate for the difference. Don't forget that electrolytic caps have a rather wide range (20%) of acceptable value for it to be, to be considered "in specification"

as far as caps go... i honestly don't know the difference between a tiny fart can sized 4.7 uf 50v Bi-polar cap that I usually see at the parts places and online and the huge 4.7uf 50v bi-polar cap that (other) monitor chassis use for width sizing. I got a fair stock of the proper big ones, so i'm not really worried about it...yet... but i'll be damned if i know what the actual difference is or if the little bi-polar caps can be used in exchange.
yeah i am out of my depth with spec'ing this last cap and it seems to be pretty important so I was trying to find a replacement someone had used prior. So far no luck. May go with the 10uf if I don't find anything.

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Re: MS-2933 Monitor Shiver issue
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2024, 03:15:23 pm »
So I started testing some of the caps I am going to be putting in and am wondering if they are good. Below is a picture of a 100uf 25v cap hooked up. The table says it needs to be less than .32 but the screen says its good as long as its lower than 200uf. Not sure what to trust....

EDIT: I am not trusting the caps, so I just rebuilt a full list on digikey for the chassis and ordered all 56....if it all works fine I will publish my digikey list.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 05:59:27 pm by grendelrt »