Yet Another Project That Takes Forever (YAPTTF)

[harri]

[edit] Tasklist for the project:
Phase 0 - Back of the cabinet that will house the TV.
Phase 1 - Two Player module, to get the cabinet to actually usable state.
Phase 2 - Four player additional controls.
Phase 3 - StaWa controller.
Phase 4 - Light Guns
Phase 5 - Trackballs
Phase 6 - 360 wheels.
Phase 7 - 270 wheel.
Phase 8 - Track & Field button pads.
Phase 9 - Covering the cabinet.
Phase 10 - Controls for which the need rises.
Probably will not be completed in that order.
[/edit]

I've been planning on an arcade cabinet for a long time and now that I have space for one I should finally do it. Problem is my ambitious plan for a modular cabinet which morphs from Star Wars cabinet to Gauntlet cabinet to Super Sprint cabinet and more. My plans are in my head right now, and I know what you think but it worked well enough when I build my driving rig so I intend to repeat that, I've figured the big lines already but I thought it's best to ask for advice from those who have already made cabinets so that I don't repeat every mistake there is to make. For base I'll use an old PC.

Biggest problem was the screen, there aren't big 4:3 screens available. Biggest I have is 20" LCD and that's too small, an old CRT TV would have been too big and bulky if I could find one so it wasn't an option. First I pondered what hassle it would be if I would install a monitor or TV in pivot so that the cabinet would be about as wide as normal cabinet but when I realized that I need a wide cabinet any way to fit four players for Gauntlet in front of it I decided that I can make the whole cabinet wide enough to fit a TV in it. I start with an old 40" Sony I have which means games with 4:3 aspect ratio will be 33" which is nice. (That old TV has such big bezel that when I need to replace it I can place a 42" or 43" TV to its place which will be 34" or 35" 4:3 screen.) I think that I've got the height of controllers figured out with the TankStick (and StaWa Yoke I've already bought), that showed me that the cabinet will be quite deep also, one of the reasons I wanted a big screen is that I don't have to keep it in my face but I can view it with comfortable distance. And because of that I intend to make the cabinet in two pieces that are bolted together, back part where the TV resides and front part where I connect the control modules. That way it will fit through door if it needs to be moved.

At first I planned on making the base one meter wide and modules 33cm wide which would mean I can fit one, two and three player configurations on it and in four player configuration controls for players three and four would be half way over the edge but after testing two two player gaming with X-Arcade Tankstick that I have I think that I make 36cm wide modules with 110cm base in similar design, three players fit on base and in four player configuration two control modules are half way over the base. I've been thinking of games I want to play and that has led to quite a list of controller modules needed. Gauntlet for four sticks,, box with buttons for Track & Field, Star Wars for yoke, two track balls for Marble Maddness, Super Sprint for three 360 wheels, Ferrari F355 for a 270 wheel (although I don't know if it can be played now Hard and Race Drivin' among others make sure I need the wheel) and a joystick for a flight game that runs on laser disk for which I don't remember the name by now. And if Xybots requires two joystick instead of two sticks that one more.

That's quite lot of modules so I'm thinking how I can minimize the amount. I probably do an two player module with eight buttons each and two modules with four buttons so that when the cabinet is in three player configuration the main module is in left side and module for player three is in right, even if the panel isn't symmetrical since the module for player three will most likely be in such shape that he stands in angle. Trackballs and 360 wheels (and their pedals) are probably best to put to one module each. I also try to get the controls for choosing the game, insert coin and start buttons to plate in front of the modules so that I don't have to put extra buttons in them. In any case, I plan to do each indepentent module so that it will be connected to PC with USB, ports color coded

I probably forgot something but I'll add it later. Here are questions (that I remember) for now:
1) There are many brands of buttons and sticks, what do you recommend and why?
2) There are two, four and eight way joysticks. if I add games that in original cabinet have two or four way joysticks do I need those or is eight way precise enough?
3) I have an idea of how to attach the modules but are there examples from those who have actually done this?
4) First I thought that I cover the TV with a frame that leaves the 4:3 are exposed but now I'm thinking that if it's possible I want to show the game in middle and instructions and controls schematic on sides, do you have ideas of how to do this. A launcher that can show a picture around the game and that pictre has the info?
5) In addition to previous, what launcher do you recommend and why? I've tested Launchbox but I'm not yet sure it can do all I want.
6) I want to launch Mame so that it shows only games that can be played with current controls, how do you recommend I do that? Separate Mame installations of which I will start the one matching the controls?

[PL1]

Sounds like you've put a lot of thought into your project so far.   

You might want to look at the FAQ -- especially the "What type of build meets my needs?" section.

Not sure if you'll be the first to succeed at "One Cab to Play Them All"^TM, but you're certainly not the first to try.   
- Swappable panels expand the possibilities, but remember that you'll need to store them when not in use.
- With more games come more compromises on controls.

a joystick for a flight game that runs on laser disk for which I don't remember the name by now. And if Xybots requires two joystick instead of two sticks that one more.

The laser disk flight game is probably Firefox.  It used an analog yoke similar to the one for Star Wars.
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Joysticks#Analog_Joysticks



Xybots used an Atari "Twist-to-Turn" joystick, but you can run it using a normal 8-way stick if you remap the buttons like this:

         1  2  3
Joy
         4  5  6

1 - Turn left
2 - Fire
3 - Turn right
4 - Super-zapper/Start

There are about two dozen games like Ikari Warriors that used a mechanical rotary joystick.
*** Be sure to change the settings for these games as mentioned in the wiki. ***

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Joysticks#Mechanical_Rotary_Joystick_Games_.28LS-30.2C_Happ_Mechanical_Rotary_Sticks.29

There are a number of games that use two sticks like Robotron and Smash TV.

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Joysticks#Games_with_Dual_Joysticks

1) There are many brands of buttons and sticks, what do you recommend and why?

A lot of this is personal preference and can change based on the game you are playing.
- Need rapid fire for Galaga? Leaf-switch buttons are your friend.
- Playing Donkey Kong?  Avoid 8-way sticks so Jumpman doesn't get stuck on the ladder when you accidently hit a diagonal.

If you like Japanese-style sticks, Sanwa and Seimitsu make great sticks.

If you like American-style sticks, Happ/IL makes great sticks like the Competition (Happ)/Eurojoystick (IL) or Super (Happ)/Compact (IL) sticks.

2) There are two, four and eight way joysticks. if I add games that in original cabinet have two or four way joysticks do I need those or is eight way precise enough?

You can use a 4-way or 8-way as a 2-way stick, no problem.

Using a 4-way instead of an 8-way gives you no diagonals.

Using an 8-way instead of a 4-way can cause problems with the game logic in games like DK or Pac Man.

3) I have an idea of how to attach the modules but are there examples from those who have actually done this?

Paul's Modular Control Panel - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,68892.0.html

Doc's Modular MAME - https://beersmith.com/mame/

The Velcro Based Modular Panel http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Velcro_Based_Modular_Panel
was developed for the Ghost in the Machine build http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/The_Ghost_in_the_Machine

4) First I thought that I cover the TV with a frame that leaves the 4:3 are exposed but now I'm thinking that if it's possible I want to show the game in middle and instructions and controls schematic on sides, do you have ideas of how to do this. A launcher that can show a picture around the game and that pictre has the info?

Some people have turned a widescreen TV vertical and used MAME's ability to display bezel and marquee using layout (.LAY) files.

6) I want to launch Mame so that it shows only games that can be played with current controls, how do you recommend I do that? Separate Mame installations of which I will start the one matching the controls?

You should be able to do this using menus in the front end program of your choice.  i.e. menus for "360 degree driving games", "Trackball games", "Flight yoke games", etc.


Scott

[harri]

Not sure if you'll be the first to succeed at "One Cab to Play Them All"^TM, but you're certainly not the first to try.   

I count it as a win if I ever get a cabinet that I can play Indy and Gauntlet.

- With more games come more compromises on controls.

And that's why modular, it's the solution. In theory.

The laser disk flight game is probably Firefox.  It used an analog yoke similar to the one for Star Wars.
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Joysticks#Analog_Joysticks

Probably. That is in "couldn't play then so want to play now" department but I thought it can't be that hard to find since there aren't that many LD games. I'm pretty sure cabinet I saw it in didn't have StaWa Yoke but since it's over 30 years ago I can't be certain. I either remember wrong or it was a general cabinet that had Firefox in it but since I already have the yoke this makes it easier to add it to list of games available.

Xybots used an Atari "Twist-to-Turn" joystick, but you can run it using a normal 8-way stick if you remap the buttons like this:

         1  2  3
Joy
         4  5  6

1 - Turn left
2 - Fire
3 - Turn right
4 - Super-zapper/Start

I think I try that configuration, the list of other games didn't ring a bell so it will help to keep the amount of panels down.

Using an 8-way instead of a 4-way can cause problems with the game logic in games like DK or Pac Man.

That's what I was little afraid of. But I think I'll start with 8-way sticks and decide what to do if I notice problems with them. (i.e. if I can blame the controls of my death instead of my poor skills.)

Doc's Modular MAME - https://beersmith.com/mame/

That is actually the reason I started planning on modular cabinet in fist place.

You should be able to do this using menus in the front end program of your choice.  i.e. menus for "360 degree driving games", "Trackball games", "Flight yoke games", etc.

I suspect it will be much easier to configure if general controls (moving in menus etc.) are permanently attached to frame instead of modules. In addition to needing much less buttons.

The main reason for this thread is to motivate me to actually build something instead of just keeping the TV and the X-Arcade on a table. I define this project as a success if I'll ever be able to play Gauntlet with it, rest will be bonus.

[harri]

Hope there pictures work as a motivator so that this project isn't in same state two years from now. (They are direct linksi because I'm blind and couldn't find instruction on how to upload them here to picture thread and link from there.)

[leapinlew]

What do you think of the GRS Yoke? I like it.

Did you adjust the thickness of your lines for vector games?

[PL1]

They are direct linksi because I'm blind and couldn't find instruction on how to upload them here to picture thread and link from there.

G'day whines, I'm posting a 'How to post images in your project' so that your images will look perfect every time.  Direct posting images in any thread is easy yes, but the more pro way to do it is in the instructions.  They will load faster and saint won't have to invest in even more Terabytes of storage too soon.  The 10 steps may look involved but once you get used to it it's really quick.  I open two tabs in my browser to make it even quicker.

Steps to post pictures in your project thread:
1.   Store your original images in a folder on your pc C:\users\user\pictures\MyProject\cab_01.jpg
2.   Resize your images in MSPaint to around 1000 x 562 px
3.   Save the resized image into a folder in your MyProject folder e.g. C:\users\user\pictures\MyProject\low_res\cab_01.jpg
4.   Open the thread for storing images on the forum http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,164992.40.html
5.   Start a new post by clicking the Reply button, you will need to type something in the post for it to work, even just a character will do.
6.   Click ‘Attachments and other options’ at the bottom of the post and browse to the folder on your PC with your re-sized images in it.  You can add up to eight attachments in one post.
7.   When you have added all the images you want click the Post button.
8.   In your new post, right click any image and choose ‘Copy image link’
9.   Go to your project thread on the forum and in your latest post, click the ‘Insert Image’ icon just above the text window.
10.   Paste the link you copied in the middle of the code to look like this:

You could add sizing edits as Gilrock suggests but just re-sizing and saving in MSPaint will remove any weird formatting in the image and fix distortion issues.

Scott

[harri]

What do you think of the GRS Yoke? I like it.

Did you adjust the thickness of your lines for vector games?

I have barely used it with the very temporary attaching method. I've just made sure it works and I have still little problem with calibrating, it should auto calibrate and it's much closer to center than at first but it still draws to the left. Initial feeling is positive and I do think it will provide many good moments.

I have not made any visual adjustments to any games and  Star Wars doesn't look to me like it needs adjusting.

[harri]

The laser disk flight game is probably Firefox.  It used an analog yoke similar to the one for Star Wars.
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Joysticks#Analog_Joysticks

After little research I think it may have been M.A.C.H. 3, my memory claims that there was a plane visible all the time but since I only saw it from side I don't know/remember if there was a fighter/bomber choice at the beginning (as little testing revealed).

Is there a thread where you can ask if people can identify a game? I've played an Galaga-style arcade game in late 80's (or very early 90s) that I've tried to find. At this point I'm starting to think that my memories of it get mixed up with some computer game since I'm remembering that you could move on whole screen instead of just bottom like in Galaga games and there seems to no arcade games like that.

[Edit] And thanks for the instructions for pictures, I know I saw them somewhere when I browsed this site before registering but couldn't find when it was time to post pictures.

[PL1]

After little research I think it may have been M.A.C.H. 3, my memory claims that there was a plane visible all the time but since I only saw it from side I don't know/remember if there was a fighter/bomber choice at the beginning (as little testing revealed).

OK.  M.A.C.H. 3 used a 2-thumb-button 8-way triggerstick. (looks like a Happ Heavy Duty 8-Way with different thumb buttons)
- It also had ambidexterous buttons on the panel that you could use in place of the trigger and thumb buttons.
- The way that you know that it used an 8-way instead of an analog stick like this one is the schematic in the lower left corner of page 56 of the manual here shows switches for up/down/left/right instead of X- and Y-axis potentiometers.

I've played an Galaga-style arcade game in late 80's (or very early 90s) that I've tried to find. At this point I'm starting to think that my memories of it get mixed up with some computer game since I'm remembering that you could move on whole screen instead of just bottom like in Galaga games and there seems to no arcade games like that.

Sounds like Gaplus. (a.k.a. Galaga 3)



If that's not it, post a thread in Main with all the details you can remember and ask for help identifying it.   


Scott

[harri]

OK.  M.A.C.H. 3 used a 2-thumb-button 8-way triggerstick. (looks like a Happ Heavy Duty 8-Way with different thumb buttons)

Hmm, the quick test went well with the StaWa yoke... But that means that it should be playable with the basic controls. I'll have to test it when I'll get to phase 1 (I edited steps for this project to OP) and decide if I want to make an extra set of controls just for the looks. Most probably not.

[harri]

I have not yet got any timber so building hasn't started. While waiting I was thinking a solution for the problem of showing only the games that can be played with controls in hand. I tried it with GameEx and custom lists, I put multiple installations of Mame on disk and on each I added roms for specific controllers. Then I added them to custom list as additional emulators but GameEx didn't find the roms, only on first one that was Mame on GameEx setup.

What I currently have is multiple installations of GameEx Arcade with multiple installations of Mame. Since I have a TankStick and Yoke I'm testing this with them, I made a simple powershell script that checks if controller is plugged in and if it is then launches the GameEx with Mame configured for games for that controller. The caveat is that when I get several identical boards to connect the buttons of each controller they need to look as different devices to Windows. Then I can put the PC to run the script at boot and it opens the right version of GameEx.

If I get this to work the downside will be that I pretty much decided to not make 2, 3 and 4 player modules but only one module because only benefit of separate modules would have been ability to put the one player module on middle of the screen while playing alone instead of playing on left side of the cabinet. I'll have to think of this since the big module would probably be sturdier because 3 and 4 player modules go over the base.