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Author Topic: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club  (Read 2629 times)

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bobbyb13

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Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« on: January 09, 2023, 03:13:59 am »
In desperation I posted a craigslist ad for a pinball machine project.

So...
This guy sends me a message that he has something that maybe I'll be interested in but can't recall what machine it is and he'll send me pictures once he gets home from work.
I think it was already 8pm.

If you know pidgin then you would know what I'm talking about but this guy's skill at texting in pidgin was pretty impressive.
He says the family is hoping for $1k but not interested in getting rich.
Sure.
This is December 30th.
Next morning he sends me a message that if I want to have a look I can meet him at some random address in a potentially sketchy neighborhood.
Sure.  Why not.
And why don't I just bring $1k cash too-
I drive the 40 min to meet him and I find two guys who are really nice actually, one of who I can hardly understand because of his mumble, with a cabinet with no legs and no backglass.

Obviously the guy recalled seeing it in some meth den somewhere and figured he could get a few bucks out of it.
Here it is back at my workshop.



Yeah I know I blew it with the image aspect ratio but you get the picture.

They had unsuccessfully tried to get the back box off (the hinges had recently been hacked in half) and gave up.
It had been sitting in the dirt somewhere with no legs for who knows how long and someone tossed a beer at the backglass at some point too but surprisingly the boards (apart from alkaline destruction on the main,) harness, and playfield appear to be quite good.

Easy to see since there was no bottom on it.



I told them I would take it.
That ridiculous show was a favorite of mine and this obviously is a pretty iconic machine that deserves to live again so I gave them $400 (they need it far worse than I do) and said have a happy new year.
I'm afriad to imagine what they spent that money on.

I ordered some stuff from Marco and pulled the main board to clean it and see about replacing the three dead chip sockets (yet the chips look ok!) so we'll see how I do.

What an initiation this is going to be.


And it gets worse, because 4 days later somebody else called me to ask if I wanted a cowboy themed project-

For free.

I need to delete that freakin craigslist ad before the missus kicks me out of the house.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 03:19:45 am by bobbyb13 »
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

pbj

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2023, 02:29:38 pm »
Oh boy, you've got your work cut out for you.  Looks like a reproduction translite is available, so get one of those ordered ASAP.

 :cheers:

Mike A

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2023, 02:40:15 pm »
I hope you know a good divorce attorney.

bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2023, 01:52:53 am »
Oh boy, you've got your work cut out for you.  Looks like a reproduction translite is available, so get one of those ordered ASAP.

 :cheers:

Thanks for chiming in gents.  I will certainly have questions and need some direction.

Plenty to do- and I don't know ---my bottom--- from a hole in the ground when it comes to these things.
Nothing like baptism in fire-

I've got one of those translites on the way.  I actually looked up whether or not I could even find backbox art on my way to pick up the machine.
I cleaned up the bottom and cut and glued in a new piece before I even brought it in the shop that afternoon so it is back to a solid box that can hold a transformer and speaker again.
Thankfully it hadn't sat in inches of water for a long time before it came to me.  We just had a huge rain though,  so probably sat in a 1/2" or less for a week or so.
The whole thing had been drizzled on randomly for a while I imagine based on the outer layer of ply delaminating in various places and the backbox back panel being swollen.

Just painted some legs I got from Marco for it today so I can get it off the dolly and work on it.

I think I have the alkaline destruction to the main board mitigated but I'm new to this part so who knows.
I got replacement sockets for three of the ICs so replacing those without destroying traces is the next hurdle.
The sockets were toast but the chips look ok.
Everything else looks damn good so I figured it was worth a shot at making it whole again, even if I don't know what the hell I'm doing yet.

I hope you know a good divorce attorney.
:lol
And believe it or not Mike, the missus is on board with it!
She only wants to play Ms.Pac and Burgertime for video stuff but she was genuinely excited about a pinball machine.
So much so that she and Tyler just helped me carry it up into the loft.

In fact, she didn't even get pissed off when I told her there was a second one.
Heheh

But that should be in another thread.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

pbj

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2023, 11:05:27 am »
Honestly, if I were you, I'd probably just go ahead and order a replacement MPU/Driver Board.

https://www.thepinballwizard.net/rottendog-circuit-boards/data-east-mpu-board-mpu004/

Luckily you're in a golden era of replacement parts.  Anything I buy dead these days I just plan on another $600ish for boards and displays.



Have you tried plugging it in and see what happens?

bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2023, 02:29:15 pm »
Ooo....
Thanks for the tip pbj.
I hadn't considered that possible for this machine but if I can bulletproof the thing for $500 it is worth it.
I already got the sockets for that thing so I'm going to give fixing it a shot today but if my repair attempt fails I'm ordering one of those boards for sure.

Been so distracted with other stuff that I haven't plugged it in yet.
Too scared to do so without checking the power supply function/voltages first.

I need to dig up a manual and see what I am supposed to find for power and really look at the whole thing to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

pbj

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2023, 02:45:19 pm »
Meh, don't be scared.  Plug it in.


bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2023, 12:01:27 am »
You're right of course, I need to just stop being a sissy.
I got the legs on it this morning before I had to head out for the day.

I'm going to try to put those sockets in tonight and give it a go.
This one might be up and running first actually.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2023, 05:51:55 am »
Well, I got the sockets and chips in the main board (I think ok enough) and put everything back together and plugged it in
Only got lights and a bump out of the speaker.
I poked around with a meter and was getting -0.43v where I should have +5v and found 42v and 16v in other spots on the PS.
I need to look up what is what.
Somebody has been into this before based on soldering I see where I bet they found burnt headers and juat lqnded wires right on the board.

Maybe I need to start with a new power supply AND mpu.

At least it didn't just burst into flames like I expected.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

pbj

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2023, 06:11:36 pm »
"juat lqnded"

 ???

It's always power supply and connector problems with pinball machines.  Only Data East I owned was a Jurassic Park so I'm of little use besides the basics.  Sometimes you won't see the correct voltage on the supplies until there's a load on them, but.... 0.43V is very low.

If you do end up replacing connectors and such, you may need to cut back a couple of inches into the wires to get some decent copper.  There's where I'm at on my World Cup Soccer, but it's more like a foot or two.  I threw in the towel and replaced the lights with LEDs.


bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2023, 09:05:51 pm »
"just landed"
Hadn't noticed that!
Typing faster than my callused thumbs allow.

From what I have stumbled onto for info it seems that even if regular wear/aging on a power supply wasn't enough already that a lot of machines have issue with the load of 70+ incandescent bulbs even when the system is new.
So a swap to leds is probably in my future.

I suppose it is most useful to begin at the output of the transformer and head in until I find failure.

The race is on to see which machine I can get up and running first at this point.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

pbj

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2023, 11:15:25 pm »
Whatís the other machine?

 :pics

bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2023, 05:15:36 am »
I was dumbfounded at the other one to appear.

Started a new thread for that one!
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

lilshawn

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2023, 12:24:47 pm »
wow, i saw the firs pic and i was like, "ouch, that's a little rough! not bad if it was cheap for a first try at pinball "

then i saw the 2nd pic... "oooooooOOOOOOOOOOHH YIKES!"

not impossible to do... but yes, you have your work cut out, that's for sure

bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2023, 12:30:56 pm »
Yeah, as prophesized by pbj, it's going to cost me some $$.

I took a shot at some repair work but I do not get good power out of the supply board to begin with.
There are a few spots that got 'warm' on that thing so that will must get replaced.
Same goes for the main board too I think at this point.

I'll just need to chip away at it as I learn more until it's working.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

lilshawn

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2023, 01:06:53 pm »
warm is okay...hot is not.

bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2023, 06:10:55 pm »
Yeah, a bit charred actually.
There are some diodes that are crispy and a few connector pins that aren't happy either I imagine due to the brown color of things around them.
I just need to bite the bullet and buy boards for this too.

The power supply doesn't send 5V to the main board and I'm guessing that my alakaline damage repair to that one may not yield a functional board either.

It appears that changing to LEDs for these helps with load on the boards too and this is a machine that I think would still look fine with such a mod.

I have seen a few kits in places but if anyone has a recommended source for LED bulbs for this I'm all ears.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

lilshawn

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2023, 08:58:36 pm »
PBJ mentioned not that long ago that even the cheapy Ebay LED's for pinballs are pretty decent these days. i'm inclined to agree.

pbj

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2023, 11:13:55 pm »
No, I bought them direct from the OEM in China.


https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256801781288828.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.4dfc4c4cyOfCJJ&algo_pvid=f624baec-3dcd-446f-945e-c8e15994d757&algo_exp_id=f624baec-3dcd-446f-945e-c8e15994d757-3&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000018261911410%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21%2122.12%21%21%21%21%21%402103255b16586359020443785e872c%2112000018261911410%21sea&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US


I had some problems with LED flashers causing some very weird behavior on my World Cup 94.  Iím told it may be partially failing diodes on the driver board.  Whatever, I just switched some back to incandescent.

 :cheers:

bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2023, 12:31:30 pm »
Awesome.
Thanks for the link!
I'll need to order a batch for these machines.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

lilshawn

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2023, 04:14:55 pm »
i think bought about 600 white and about 200 various colors in #44's and #555's from china on ebay. i've used most of them on various pins over the last 8 months or so and had an issue with maybe 1 or 2 so far, and both were just dead out of the package. (probably a solder joint or something.) all the pins are on routes and ive had no issues with them dying or anything.

LED's really are getting better and better and cheaper and cheaper.

back in the day, you'd buy an LED and it would work for a few days then start twiching out cause the wire bond would break on them.

bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2023, 01:52:10 am »
All good to hear, especially from both of you gents.

Only hiccup I can see at this point is the driver boards not being happy with LEDs on the receiving end, but we'll see what things look like once I try the bulbs.

I ordered a batch of 44/47s and 55s from the vendor pbj linked so hopefully they get here sooner than some other things I have bought recently.

Holy crap do I have abunch of open projects.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

lilshawn

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2023, 01:40:11 pm »
your best bet is to make sure you buy AC/DC capable bulbs. they increase the cost a little bit, as they have a tiny little FULL WAVE RECTIFIER inside , but smooth out the flicker you might see.

if you have issues with SCR controlled lights (i don't think you will here...only a few of the early systems do) adding a 490 ohm resistor across the socket will eliminate it and provide a proper loading and unloading of the SCR switch. there are ready made clip in boards available from places like SIEGECRAFT as well if you don't want to solder. you just unplug the lamps plug from the board, plug the resistor board onto the pins and plug the lamps plug onto the resistor board.

also be sure, if your system supports dimming of the lighting, set it at 100% dimming just introduces flicker.

bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2023, 12:52:39 am »
I'm as stunned as anyone could be, but I have a functional Simpsons pinball machine.

The power supply had some really burned connectors and one that was so obviously bad that someone had just yanked the header and soldered directly to the board.
It was a mess that took a while to clean up and it still didn't put out good voltage.

The mpu was so alkaline scorched that by the time I figured I had all that neutralized there was no mask in various spots anymore and the chips it drooled through were not happy either.

The battery waterfall was so bad for so long that it made it into the playfield power board too.

So...
After a box with some Rottendog pcbs arrived and I repaired a bunch or wiring harness I was greeted with the themesong from a favorite cartoon show.

Totally ridiculous.
Really fun.

I'm still waiting on those new led bulbs but I swapped out all the rubber anyway and got some shiny new balls and it is a fun machine.

I'll need to stop playing it long enough to swap in new drop targets (even broke one playing today) and there is somebody on pinside trying to recreate playfield art so who knows how sexy this one could get before I'm done.

Doh!
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

lilshawn

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2023, 02:29:28 am »
The power supply had some really burned connectors and one that was so obviously bad that someone had just yanked the header and soldered directly to the board.


this is normal pinhack repair. the pins and connector burn up and instead of spending 10 bucks and replacing them, people just solder the wires to the board...nothing really wrong with it per se, but it make it a pain in the butt to repair since now your stuff is attached together.

It was a mess that took a while to clean up and it still didn't put out good voltage.

yeah the voltages aren't real critical. as long as the +5v is good and making it to the CPU board processors at 5.something volts... the others can be out by quite a bit before you notice.

The mpu was so alkaline scorched that by the time I figured I had all that neutralized there was no mask in various spots anymore and the chips it drooled through were not happy either.

The battery waterfall was so bad for so long that it made it into the playfield power board too.

i don't know why anyone thought putting batteries that leak onto a board and not in a holder away from everything was a good idea.

So...
After a box with some Rottendog pcbs arrived and I repaired a bunch or wiring harness I was greeted with the themesong from a favorite cartoon show.

ahh the easy, stress reduced way of gettin' 'er done

LTC

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2023, 08:29:12 pm »
Congrats on making this pin playable. Sure looked like a basket case when you picked it up, although I had no doubt having seen some of your other projects.

On a side note, I had no idea this pin existed, and will be adding it to my virtual pin cab ASAP.

pbj

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2023, 10:53:33 pm »
Thatís awesome you got it working.  Playfield looks good to me in your potato pic.  Iím not a fan of overlays unless the playfield is bare wood.

Drop target can probably be repaired with jb weld and a piece of metal on the back.  Then relocate it to a position it gets hit fewer times.  Iíve repaired dozens like that over the years.  If you replace it, keep the broken one as the repro may be total junk and youíll be wishing you had jb welded the old one.

 :lol

Whenís the translite arrive?  A missing backglass is an albatross.




bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2023, 03:51:08 am »
It IS awesome.
And surprising.

I have given up on trying to get this file to save and post properly since I forgot and took the stupid picture portrait.

(in an angelic manner-)
Ahhhhh......
The Simpsons....



I'm with you on the playfield thing.
There is a mylar skin covering most of it actually, and apart from a few spots where you can tell the ball was bouncing off something and the paint is worn off where there is no mylar it is really not bad at all.
Most of the inserts for the bulbs are raised above the board itself enough that I can see it but it is hard to see it affecting the ball travel.

I have a stack of replacement drop targets but I will save the originals because I can see what you are talking about as a real possibility.
The three bowling pin ones (the set directly above the flippers which take the most abuse) are actually sagging/bent a little.  I can see they get hung up on the playfield sometimes when the coil is trying to reset them so I will try replacing those and see what happens.
They are missing their bowling pin stickers anyway so deserve a little attention.

It will be fun to get this thing dialed in.
I already sorted out where one vertical kickout was having trouble lifting the ball into the return/roll cage because it wasn't aligned properly so I can see that there are certain parts of these machines that need to be finessed a bit to get them to work as designed.
Funny also to see where random little posts have been added to try to prevent a ball from getting stuck in weird spots.

Cool stuff.
Another rabbit-hole.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

pbj

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2023, 12:13:44 pm »
The inserts that aren't covered by mylar - push them up from underneath, clean the edges, touch up the black outline on the playfield with a paint marker, put some woodglue on them, and glue them back in level.  It's a ton of back irritating work but it's worth it.  This is so damn cheap, but to push them up, I find a socket that's slightly narrower diameter, stuff a wad of papertowel in it, cover with masking tape (trying to get a level surface), put an extension in it, hold the playfield upright with one hand, and push slow but firm with the other.  I've had exactly one insert crack on me and I've done hundreds like this.

The ones under the mylar you may be able to use a wood block or something to push them down flat.  Maybe heat underneath with a hair dryer for a bit.

Mylar is probably best left alone.  If the paint is cracked underneath you will lift it right off when you remove the mylar.  People like doing the "freeze spray" method.  I just leave mylar alone unless it's curling and messing with the ball.

Anyway, awesome work on this.  I similarly brought a Firepower back from the dead and that beater is still in my gameroom.

 :cheers:




bobbyb13

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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2023, 11:49:32 pm »
I figured that touching the mylar meant destroying the playfield (or at least the art) so a bad idea.
It would be cool to do a little insert work though so I need to have another look at the playfield with levelling off the inserts in mind.
Certainly sounds like worth doing to me.
Thanks for the tips pbj.

At some point I may take a shot at "repainting" in the art that is worn off outside the mylar too.
I've used Posca paint pens on surfboard foam pretty successfully so I imagine it would work for this too.
That and a bit of clear coat may do the trick and seal the wood back up too.
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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2023, 01:45:04 am »
Nice work so far Bobby  :cheers:
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Re: Careful what you wish for- I finally got to join the club
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2023, 09:47:02 pm »
When I bought a dirt cheap Black Knight 2000 on Ebay... I took a 13 ish hour drive to pick it up... only to see that the playfield was
completely ATE up.   The photos he used, were deceptively backed away and slightly blurry.  I should have known better.. but I was
younger, and this was the first Pin that I was about to own... And probably the only one that I could possibly afford.

 Anyways... I ended up buying another entire Playfield set... that was in much better shape.  Still, I wanted to touch a lot of it up,
but the Mylar was covering things.

 I tried to Freeze method.  Froze the thing with the spray can... and then I believe I used a razor blade and went to peel up a corner.
POP!   The whole thing instantly came up INSTANTLY.   There was no slow and cautious "Peeling".   It just "Let Go".

 Now.. heres the thing... the MYLAR comes off... but what stays behind, was the Glue.   That glue took several Hours worth of work
to remove from the playfield.

 I think there was a few tiny spots of paint that lifted.. but it was only some of the black outlines around the edged of a few Inserts.
Nothing serious.

 Many of the Plastic Inserts, had wear on the decals.. and a few were not "Level" with the field.   I decided to try the Heat-Gun method
to remove them.   I was very worried about potentially bubbling the paint... or even damaging the plastics.  But, I heated them from
the rear... and with a little bit of pushing... I was eventually able to pop them all out, without any issue.

 The inserts looked "Cracked"... but it turned out that the plastic was fine.  The cracks were actually the Clear-Coat or Lacquer that they
originally used.

 So... I sanded all of them Flat, and ran every Insert under a Buffer.

 I had won a Sticker Sheet for the Decals on Ebay... but when they arrived.. the Quality of the lettering was total GARBAGE!  But that wasnt
even the worst part.  The Colored center sticker... was completely Off in its colors and details.  Completely unusable.  The good thing is,
I had left my original one as-is... and the damages to it, wasnt "That Bad".

 I was able to Touch up the entire field, and admittedly did an excellent job in matching the colors.

 But the Seller of the Prints, wouldnt Update the Clear Sheets... and I had never got around to trying to make & print my own... and then
my health started to take a nose dive... and everything Sat untouched.

 Also... when I asked my buddy about the possibility of Clear Coating the field.. he stated that he would have to do a light sanding on
the field for the clearcoat to "Stick".  Maybe my work would have held up to the sanding... but maybe not.  It was just sort of Soul Crushing,
because I probably had a week worth of work into the painting / touchups.

 The other thing that I learned much later on... while watching some Art channel content..  was that if you watered down Acrylics too much,
that it would cause the acrylics to eventually Crack...  as you need the Binder to be strong enough to hold the paint together effectively.

 I had needed to water down the paint a LOT, to make it flow well enough for very fine detailed lines.  I would often have to go over the same
spots / lines... about 3 times, to layer it up thick enough.  Its Probably OK.. but I have no idea.


 Anyway... heres the takeaway:

 If your Insert details are worn..  dont expect to buy an acceptable replacement sheet... unless you dont mind really bad work.  And if there are
any colors on the inserts... dont do anything to them, because the sheets wont match at all.  These companies have No quality control... and the
person behind them, is partially color blind (cant see enough shades to know that there even is a huge matching issue).

 If your inserts are Decent.. then fine.  They are not too difficult to remove.   However... be aware.. plastics get quite Brittle from the years of
Heat from the Bulbs that were under them.  They could easily end up cracking into pieces when trying to remove them.

 If you can print your own quality Insert Sheets... or maybe make Friscut Spray Masks (laser cutter would probably be the best option for this),
then IMO... buy all new plastic Inserts, rather than trying to sand and buff all of those inserts.  Especially since its so easy to have the buffer
catch one... and fling it across the room at Mach 5.

 If you are repainting, try not to water down the paint too much.  Use acrylics if you plan on Clear-Coating, as Ive heard that enamals will melt/run.
Use a good magnifier visor, so that you can see the details very clearly, when doing the painting.   If you are not good at color matching.. hire
a good artist.. and have them prove their matching abilities on one section, before going  All-the-way.

 If you remove the Mylar... and have repainted, you have to either Clear-Coat the field (several coats),  or to Re-Mylar the field.
Otherwise.. any of that touchup paint will be quickly removed from the field.

 Even IF you do not Touchup.. but have removed the mylar.. you should replace the mylar as soon as possible.  Mylar protects the field from
a massive amount of damages from the ball.  My original BK2K play field.. was an early version, that didnt have the Mylar installed on it.
As a result... there is wear right down to the Wood.  Also, there are tons of tiny Cracks in the paint.  I believe the mylar + glue... prevents the
wood from expanding / contracting  and causing cracks in the paint.


 Now... all of this was from over a decade ago... so MAYBE there are sellers out there that have Upped their game.  I just wouldnt count on it.