Lichtknarre: Unmodified Wii remote as a sight accurate Lightgun using 2/4 LEDs

[RandyT]

Still a tad above, but since I have the oddness of larger offsets than expected, I wouldn't bother trying to revise it until you set your own up.  Might be something weird on my end. 

Thanks for checking it out.  I'm pretty sure it's good this time.  You can check my updated post for how it's being calculated.

According to the measurements you gave, the blue line should be 272.32mm below the center of your top LED.  Is it pretty close to that?  If so, then the LED positions may be what's accounting for the offset values Fusselkroete thought were a little strange.  Either that, or that particular camera type in the gun may be seeing things a bit differently than the typical Wii remote.  If there is possibly intentional distortion in the lens, or some other optical difference, the optimal positioning may be slightly different.

But I'm happy to hear that you were able to get your guns working!  I ordered a 6.5v supply, so I'm going to attempt a constant voltage approach to the LEDs.  If I have to, I'll add a small resistor, but that's pretty well below what 4 of those LEDs in series can handle (~8v) so as long as the supply doesn't get overtaxed, things should run without damage.  I guess I'll be the guinea pig for that one.  For safety reasons, there should probably be a .5a fuse in-line, but I'll add that later if things work well.

[Fusselkroete]

Still a tad above, but since I have the oddness of larger offsets than expected, I wouldn't bother trying to revise it until you set your own up.  Might be something weird on my end. 

Thanks for checking it out.  I'm pretty sure it's good this time.  You can check my updated post for how it's being calculated.

According to the measurements you gave, the blue line should be 272.32mm below the center of your top LED.  Is it pretty close to that?  If so, then the LED positions may be what's accounting for the offset values Fusselkroete thought were a little strange.  Either that, or that particular camera type in the gun may be seeing things a bit differently than the typical Wii remote.  If there is possibly intentional distortion in the lens, or some other optical difference, the optimal positioning may be slightly different.

But I'm happy to hear that you were able to get your guns working!  I ordered a 6.5v supply, so I'm going to attempt a constant voltage approach to the LEDs.  If I have to, I'll add a small resistor, but that's pretty well below what 4 of those LEDs in series can handle (~8v) so as long as the supply doesn't get overtaxed, things should run without damage.  I guess I'll be the guinea pig for that one.  For safety reasons, there should probably be a .5a fuse in-line, but I'll add that later if things work well.

Yep the lens distortion could be a part of this calculation xD. In 4 LED Tracker i ignore the distortion but when you align LEDs over the wii camera, than for sure the lens distortion is a factor when aligning the LEDs.
Will also integrate maybe this kind of calculator/calibration-tool to the 4 LED tracker-plugin.

Lens distortion is also part of the 2 LED Tracker.
 
I hope that i soon find the time to release a guncase with lensholder:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ty1HJIT5EhbennsuP9QQvOKh2KsIYql9/view?usp=sharing

Than will speak more about lensfactor

[RandyT]

I finally got some of these LEDs in today and soldered up 4 of them in series.  My 6.5v supplies haven't arrived yet, but for testing purposes, I just used my bench lab supply set to 6.5v.

You can do all the calculations you want with these things, but at the end of the day, what they draw is what they draw.  According to my supply, 4 in series with no resistor @ 6.5v gets them to about 600ma draw.  If I put them onto some good sized heat sinks, I think that would be fine, but without heatsinks, they get "burn your fingers" hot.  I also don't think the output is considerably better at 600ma, as opposed to about 400-450ma (which is pretty much what the graphs indicate.)  But even at that level of current, they are still pretty hot.  However, this isn't yet a fair test, as they are in series "lug-to-lug" so there's no wire in-between to help sink the heat away.  I fully expect them to run a bit cooler with a decently large gauge wire between.  I'm thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of ~18 gauge at minimum.

So I think I have settled upon using a 6.5v supply and single 1/4w .1 ohm resistor, which seems to make them stable at a 410ma current.  The resistor doesn't even get warm, so I know efficiency is pretty darned good.  I may need put some small heat sinks on the LEDs, but I'm hoping I won't need to.

I also did some testing with the cell phone camera.  Turned off all of the lights and the LEDs were nice, bright white and well defined dots.  However, I removed the filter from both an original and a knock-off Wii remote and placed them in front of the cell camera.  Both filters knocked the brightness of the LEDs right into the proverbial dirt, but the filter from the knock-off was worse.  When I looked at a bright light through both of them, it was clear as to why.  The original filter had a slightly purple shade, while the knock-off was more cyan.  If you want to let a good chunk of the longer red wavelengths through, cyan is about the worst color one could use.



This image from the subtractive color wiki shows pretty well the effect that filters have on color. So while you don't want to let in so much red as to see the red power LED from your TV (you covered that anyway, right?) , you do want to let SOME of it through.  Therefore, the slightly purple filter is definitely better. 

All of that stated, not all filters are created equal.  I also tested a filter from a different light gun system which seemed to work considerably better, at least with the cell camera.  So I guess the take-away is that if the image of the dots is weak, it may not be the LEDs, rather the filter in front of the camera!  FWIW, I have some material on the way for testing which supposedly does very well in the wavelengths we are interested in, reaching close to 90% while blocking everything below the mid 700's.  If I find that it works better, I'll probably make some pre-cut filters available in different shapes and sizes.

Just thought people might find some of this interesting, as it's applicable no matter what type of IR system is being used.

Edit:  I just put ~10" of 14 gauge wire between each of the LEDs.  This lowered the temperatures enough to also lower the total current consumption.  It looks like I can do this without heatsinks and still get ~400ma with this size wire.  If I ditch the resistor I see 570ma and module temps around 160f, which would probably still be fine so long as the back of the module was exposed to open air.

[BadMouth]

My guns seem to have no problem seeing them through a tinted bezel at 300ma, but that's from 40 inches away.

Even under the smoked acrylic, my black duct tape job looks like crap.  I'm also worried about heat since I have them flat against the monitor.
So I decided to redo them. When I originally built the cab, I put the acrylic as close to the monitor as possible.  Regretting that now.
Originally the plan was to mount the LEDs on the sides of the monitor, but putting them next to the screen results in a play distance short enough to never be an issue.

The next iteration is some strips of thin (maybe 1/16") aluminum cut from a shop air filter frame with the LED and a small heatsink thermal glued to it.
I'll bend the strips to fit around the sides of the monitor, paint and attach to the sides with vhb tape.

[Fusselkroete]

tbh i think normal 980nm IR lights which are in the wii sensor bar could also work fine enough for normal size monitors/tvs. The video i made was only my way i did it.
Some ppl told me that 980nm works fine. I used high power LEDs because i use this tool in beamer/projector from far distance. But i didn't validated this.

Your choice xD

[lilshawn]

just my 2 cents regarding the peculiarities of aming/aligning/seeing the appropriate LED's...

your "viewing angle" is really bad...

the led shape has a drastic effect on how much of an angle you are going to be able to see them at. typical "normal" shaped LED's have about a 10 or 20 degree viewing angle.  a shape commonly named "straw hat" LED's have about 90 ish degrees of emission... where a flat topped and even inverse cone shaped LED lenses have a viewing angle gaining on 160 to even 180 degrees or more.

the original wii sensor bars used 5 "regular" LED's on each side ... but arranged in an arc to improve the angle in which the IR "dots" can be seen.

when going with a single source IR emission like this, you should probably look into "straw hat" or flat top LED's to improve the angles in which the sources can be seen by a camera.

[RandyT]

tbh i think normal 980nm IR lights which are in the wii sensor bar could also work fine enough for normal size monitors/tvs. The video i made was only my way i did it.
Some ppl told me that 980nm works fine. I used high power LEDs because i use this tool in beamer/projector from far distance. But i didn't validated this.

Your choice xD

You are on a site where people take games which can be played on a cell phone and put them into huge, furniture-sized boxes.  If something can be done to excessive levels, we'll usually take that route. 

Seriously though, the wii lightbar is more powerful than a lot of people probably think it is.  There are a total of 10 LEDs in that thing (4 of which aid in angles of incidence) just to give it two blobs to work with.  There's also no such thing as a perfect filter, so if there's a 15% loss from the one in front of the LEDs and an additional %15 from the one on the controller, there's a 30% reduction of the available IR right off the top.  Then, if you run everything at the longer wavelengths, the camera becomes less sensitive by about half (based on the IR sensitivities of most silicon-based sensors). So, my current belief is that, if people are willing to deal with the dim red dots, performance and range can be enhanced by a decent margin with your kind of setup.

But yeah, unless one has issues while playing, it's probably not necessary to go too crazy for a simple setup where the LEDs are exposed and the screen isn't huge.

just my 2 cents regarding the peculiarities of aming/aligning/seeing the appropriate LED's...

your "viewing angle" is really bad...
...
when going with a single source IR emission like this, you should probably look into "straw hat" or flat top LED's to improve the angles in which the sources can be seen by a camera.

I mostly agree.  However, the particular LEDs we've been tinkering with have a stated viewing angle of 140degrees, so at any usable distance from them, they should be good-to-go for this type of application.

[lilshawn]

I mostly agree.  However, the particular LEDs we've been tinkering with have a stated viewing angle of 140degrees, so at any usable distance from them, they should be good-to-go for this type of application.

yeah 140 degrees... but you can see in the first pic you posted that the top one's emission has become barely "visible". so they probably have in the datasheet that it's 80% in the first 20 degrees of angle... but could be down to 1% by the time you hit 140 degrees. manufacturers are weird like that.

this should be easily doable with four 5mm LED's running at 30ma.... with 3 watt LEDs... your camera should be literally BLINDED by them.

just spitballing here... i wonder if you placed a small square of frosted plexi (about the size of a square of shredded wheat) in front of the LED... if it's detection would be better.

[RandyT]

yeah 140 degrees... but you can see in the first pic you posted that the top one's emission has become barely "visible". so they probably have in the datasheet that it's 80% in the first 20 degrees of angle... but could be down to 1% by the time you hit 140 degrees. manufacturers are weird like that.

this should be easily doable with four 5mm LED's running at 30ma.... with 3 watt LEDs... your camera should be literally BLINDED by them.

just spitballing here... i wonder if you placed a small square of frosted plexi (about the size of a square of shredded wheat) in front of the LED... if it's detection would be better.

If the manufacturer's graph is to be believed, these should be giving 35% at 140 degrees, which isn't bad.  A couple other data points are 50% at 120, 75% at 90 and it goes up from there.  I also don't know where the 3watts comes from, unless that is the maximum they hit before they catch fire.  I've always thought P=VI, which in this case comes out to 1.26w = 1.8v x 700ma, and the goal is not to run them that hot, both to maximize longevity and minimize the need for cooling.  I think the sweet spot is where you start to see diminishing returns.

I just tried some good diffusing material (not saying it's best for this) and wasn't able to achieve anything at any angle which didn't just make a softer, but dimmer spot.  Even at very acute angles, my cell camera with a good IR filter on it picks up the naked LED very well.

[RandyT]

Finally got this set up on a 50" plasma for testing.  Being wireless and sight accurate is great.  After setting up the LEDs with my dumb little program, and with no IR offsets (all left at 0), the cursor sits right in the sights of the gun, pretty much anywhere on the screen.  I'd say it was at least as good as a traditional lightgun for accuracy.  But I am seeing an issue.

Everything which follows was done watching the mouse cursor at the desktop, so no game calibration or influence is at play.

I'm seeing an oddity, possibly related to the angle compensation code.  If I pan the screen quickly and repeatedly to the left and right , I see the blob pattern in the preview window tilting clockwise when moving left and counter-clockwise when moving to the right, even though I am being very careful not to tilt the gun.  This incorrectly perceived tilt by the software seems to trigger the tilt compensation, which then gets confused and seems to place the cursor randomly on the screen as the motion continues and the software seems to become more confused.

The interesting thing is that this does not occur when doing the same thing slowly.  As long as I don't exceed a certain, somewhat slow speed, the pattern stays dead straight and the cursor stays where it should.  I do not expect that this is linked to Bluetooth or system speed issues, as I can crank up the inputs per second cutoff to 120, which makes the cursor move extremely smoothly, but with no change in this odd behavior.  I should also note that distance does not seem to make a difference.

Fusselkroete, is it possible to add an option to disable the tilt compensation code entirely?  While this may not be the root cause of the issue, it seems like the lower speed at which it operates causes error to compound, leading to the cursor ending up momentarily in places it shouldn't.

I'm also seeing an occasional, but also rare, minor offsetting of the cursor.  Usually, just going off the edge of the screen and coming back will correct it, or it will sometimes just manage to fix itself.  No idea as to what might be causing this one.  It almost feels as if the cursor ends up "stuck" in a small offset and then eventually frees itself.

And as long as I'm asking for stuff, I'd also like to see a troubleshooting feature added.  Namely, a basic, full-screen preview.  It would be handy for larger screens to be able to double-click the preview window to bring it to full-screen so it's easier to see what is happening at longer distances from the screen.  The code seems already to be present for this, so I wouldn't expect that it would be too difficult to add and it would be a nice feature.

One final oddity I found.  In the 3. Default Gun calibration mode, I was only able to shoot one of the blue squares.  It would progress to the next screen, but it would no longer register a button press to proceed.  If I used the mouse to exit the mode, the trigger would again function normally.  This seems like a bug, unless I am doing something wrong here.  I did as the screen stated, having only two of the proper color dots on the screen, but could not get past the screen no matter what I did.  The 2. default LED-calibration was no problem at all.

Edit:  Whoops, forgot one.  I also noticed that through some currently unknown combination of events, the blue dots in the preview window disappear, and only re-appear when less than 4 are present.  Whenever there should be 4 dots displayed, it shows only the numbers and no dots.  A re-boot of the software will fix this temporarily, so it appears to be a bug of some sort.

[Fusselkroete]

I'm seeing an oddity, possibly related to the angle compensation code.  If I pan the screen quickly and repeatedly to the left and right , I see the blob pattern in the preview window tilting clockwise when moving left and counter-clockwise when moving to the right, even though I am being very careful not to tilt the gun.  This incorrectly perceived tilt by the software seems to trigger the tilt compensation, which then gets confused and seems to place the cursor randomly on the screen as the motion continues and the software seems to become more confused.

The interesting thing is that this does not occur when doing the same thing slowly.  As long as I don't exceed a certain, somewhat slow speed, the pattern stays dead straight and the cursor stays where it should.  I do not expect that this is linked to Bluetooth or system speed issues, as I can crank up the inputs per second cutoff to 120, which makes the cursor move extremely smoothly, but with no change in this odd behavior.  I should also note that distance does not seem to make a difference.

Fusselkroete, is it possible to add an option to disable the tilt compensation code entirely?  While this may not be the root cause of the issue, it seems like the lower speed at which it operates causes error to compound, leading to the cursor ending up momentarily in places it shouldn't.

Yes it has an adjust time for 0.6-1s when tilting for the 4 LED Tracker-Plugin. No one realy had a problem with it and it was documented on the instructable website.
https://www.instructables.com/Wii-Remote-As-Lightgun-With-Iron-Sight-Accuracy/ << Look Features

The inputs per seconds has nothing todo with the position recognition code at all. Inputs per second cutoff is only the option how much the connector plugin sends data in a second to the apis/vjoy or something else.
Look here : https://geekonarium.de/en/lightgun-lichtknarre-about-the-plugin-system/
Its also labeled, that this dialog is a connector plugin configuration for the vjoy or mouse connector plugin.

So you can say it always recognize with the most speed as possible.

I'm also seeing an occasional, but also rare, minor offsetting of the cursor.  Usually, just going off the edge of the screen and coming back will correct it, or it will sometimes just manage to fix itself.  No idea as to what might be causing this one.  It almost feels as if the cursor ends up "stuck" in a small offset and then eventually frees itself.

This sounds like a reflection problem or some sort. :O maybe play around with the IR sensitivity setting.

And as long as I'm asking for stuff, I'd also like to see a troubleshooting feature added.  Namely, a basic, full-screen preview.  It would be handy for larger screens to be able to double-click the preview window to bring it to full-screen so it's easier to see what is happening at longer distances from the screen.  The code seems already to be present for this, so I wouldn't expect that it would be too difficult to add and it would be a nice feature.

There is a troubleshooting guide on the website. read this first please. https://geekonarium.de/en/lichtknarre-lightgun-wii-4-led-tracker-plugin/#troubleshooting

One final oddity I found.  In the 3. Default Gun calibration mode, I was only able to shoot one of the blue squares.  It would progress to the next screen, but it would no longer register a button press to proceed.  If I used the mouse to exit the mode, the trigger would again function normally.  This seems like a bug, unless I am doing something wrong here.  I did as the screen stated, having only two of the proper color dots on the screen, but could not get past the screen no matter what I did.  The 2. default LED-calibration was no problem at all.

Why you want to shoot the blue squares? Do you speak about 4 LED Tracker or 2 LED Tracker? In the calibration mode you should put the IRs cycles in the squares. But i think they are green. And the describtion explains that on the same screen. Maybe thats why your cursor jumps from time to time without tilting or screen reflections.

Edit:  Whoops, forgot one.  I also noticed that through some currently unknown combination of events, the blue dots in the preview window disappear, and only re-appear when less than 4 are present.  Whenever there should be 4 dots displayed, it shows only the numbers and no dots.  A re-boot of the software will fix this temporarily, so it appears to be a bug of some sort.

Hmm can you make a video of this please? When the software has no focus than there should be no update in the preview.

[RandyT]

For the record, I've read everything on the website like 10 times

So you can say it always recognize with the most speed as possible.

Ok, that's good to know.  I took this to mean the speed in which it was polling the Wii controller over Bluetooth.  In any event, it doesn't seem to be the cause of the issue I am seeing.

This sounds like a reflection problem or some sort. :O maybe play around with the IR sensitivity setting.

That was my first thought as well.  However, I would expect reflections to manifest themselves as a constant, as they would always be present.  This doesn't behave that way.  Most of the time, the cursor is where it should be.  Only occasionally do I see this offset and it eventually goes away.  IR sensitivity settings do not seem to affect more than the distance at which I can see the blob pattern in the preview with no flickering.  That's why I requested a full-screen mode for the preview window for testing purposes.  It's difficult to see what information the program is acting upon in that small window when you are 3 meters from the screen .

There is a troubleshooting guide on the website. read this first please. https://geekonarium.de/en/lichtknarre-lightgun-wii-4-led-tracker-plugin/#troubleshooting

I've read it a few times.  Nothing on there explains tilting of the blob pattern when moving laterally at fast speeds .  As I stated, if I slow down movements, everything tracks nearly perfectly without the software thinking the gun is tilting.  But past a certain speed of movement, it does it nearly every time.  Even with all 4 LEDs visible and being tracked by the camera.

Why you want to shoot the blue squares? Do you speak about 4 LED Tracker or 2 LED Tracker? In the calibration mode you should put the IRs cycles in the squares. But i think they are green. And the describtion explains that on the same screen. Maybe thats why your cursor jumps from time to time without tilting or screen reflections.

My apologies for this one.  I confused the modes (it was a late night.)  I should have written:

"One final oddity I found.  In the Default Offset Calibration Wizard, I was only able to shoot one of the blue squares.  It would progress to the next screen, but it would no longer register a button press to proceed.  If I used the mouse to exit the mode, the trigger would again function normally.  This seems like a bug, unless I am doing something wrong here.  I did as the screen stated, having only two of the proper color dots on the screen, but could not get past the screen no matter what I did.  The 3. default gun-calibration was no problem at all."

That doesn't mean I'm not doing something wrong.  Just trying to follow the instructions as written on the screen.  However, in this case, it instructs to shoot the blue dot, and there are "blue dots" moving all over the screen.     But, there is a small blue square, so I assume it means that one.  If I shoot at that square, it gives me an offset of about -1.6% and then moves the square to the right.  At this point, the program stops accepting button input from the controller and it does this every time, no exceptions.  The only way to proceed at this point is to use the mouse to click on the "close" button, aborting the wizard.

When the software has no focus than there should be no update in the preview.

It does it regardless of program focus.  Also, I usually have the box checked for showing the preview even when the program does not have focus.

[lilshawn]

I also don't know where the 3watts comes from, unless that is the maximum they hit before they catch fire.  I've always thought P=VI, which in this case comes out to 1.26w = 1.8v x 700ma,

sorry, i misunderstood... that led is in a package typically used for 3 watt LED's... luminal power output =/= actual power consumption

https://www.pcboard.ca/3-watt-led-bead-infrared

[RandyT]

I also don't know where the 3watts comes from, unless that is the maximum they hit before they catch fire.  I've always thought P=VI, which in this case comes out to 1.26w = 1.8v x 700ma,

sorry, i misunderstood... that led is in a package typically used for 3 watt LED's... luminal power output =/= actual power consumption

https://www.pcboard.ca/3-watt-led-bead-infrared

The manufacturer actually calls these 3 watt LEDs, but does not provide specs for luminous output.  The 3 watts comes from the maximum amount of power the package can dissipate before damage begins to occur.  Regardless, these ratings are hard to decipher.  Even at the link you provided, the same "3-watt" package shows a red LED producing 80-90 lumens (the measure of visible output) while the white version of the same LED puts out 140-150 lumens.  The catch with IR is humans can't see it, and because those ratings are weighted based on the sensitivity of the human eye to those wavelengths , I assume they fall back to the amount of power actually being used to emit photons at those wavelengths (as opposed to heat).  If that's the case, the IR version are only using a little over 1/10th of that 3-watt rating for IR light.  But I'm not an LED pro, so I could be wrong about that last part

[BadMouth]

"One final oddity I found.  In the Default Offset Calibration Wizard, I was only able to shoot one of the blue squares.  It would progress to the next screen, but it would no longer register a button press to proceed.  If I used the mouse to exit the mode, the trigger would again function normally.  This seems like a bug, unless I am doing something wrong here.  I did as the screen stated, having only two of the proper color dots on the screen, but could not get past the screen no matter what I did.  The 3. default gun-calibration was no problem at all."

That doesn't mean I'm not doing something wrong.  Just trying to follow the instructions as written on the screen.  However, in this case, it instructs to shoot the blue dot, and there are "blue dots" moving all over the screen.     But, there is a small blue square, so I assume it means that one.  If I shoot at that square, it gives me an offset of about -1.6% and then moves the square to the right.  At this point, the program stops accepting button input from the controller and it does this every time, no exceptions.  The only way to proceed at this point is to use the mouse to click on the "close" button, aborting the wizard.

Same here.  I prefer to manually adjust anyway so forgot to mention it.

Fusselkroete, don't let the criticisms cover up how grateful we are for this program.  I bought these guns a decade ago to add to my arcade cabinet.  Finally they are accurate enough to use them.  Thank you.   

[lilshawn]

If that's the case, the IR version are only using a little over 1/10th of that 3-watt rating for IR light.  But I'm not an LED pro, so I could be wrong about that last part

thats kind of a problem with all these mixed and reuse of terms.

luminary watt is different, but related to power watt in the case of incandescency (is that a word?).......but is different to the "watt" led's use to describe the output cause they try and equivalent it. and then try and throw in a meter^2 onto that to make it extra confusing.

lumens are lumens except when talking about lumens and power because when they are, it's not because of power its because of the candella because WHY NOT!

don't get me started on "foot candelas" cause it's LUX and screw you guys!.

it all boiled down to light bulb manufacturers trying to create the biggest number scheme to advertise their bulbs because "human brain goes 5 big 1 little he he" and OUR bulb only consumes 35 didgeridoos and outputs 99 schmeckles!

[RandyT]

Fusselkroete, don't let the criticisms cover up how grateful we are for this program.  I bought these guns a decade ago to add to my arcade cabinet.  Finally they are accurate enough to use them.  Thank you.   

QFT!  It's again important to emphasize that the software is extremely usable and with many options for dialing in accuracy, which is a huge accomplishment by Fusselkroete, especially given that the software is beta and free! 

The fact that it works so well even at this stage shows just how much potential it has to become the choice for folks wanting to add a relatively inexpensive, accurate and wireless light gun to their arcade setups, regardless of their technical background.  Any criticisms are meant to be 100% constructive.  They are just us "pointing out minor bumps in an otherwise smooth road" to hopefully help Fusselkroete to improve the user experience in future versions. 

Even the biggest issue I have found (which may or may not be specifically related to my setup) is not game-breaking, as the software recovers quickly enough to not be a major issue in actual use, so I would encourage any "fence-sitters" reading this to give it a try.  You won't be disappointed!

If I didn't see something great here, I wouldn't care enough to take the time.  But I do, I have, and will continue to do so until Fusselkroete tells me he's tired of reading my crap

luminary watt is different, but related to power watt in the case of incandescency (is that a word?).......but is different to the "watt" led's use to describe the output cause they try and equivalent it. and then try and throw in a meter^2 onto that to make it extra confusing.

That's why they should never have used the term "watt" with any LED (or other light source, for that matter) to describe it's output.  It's, scientifically speaking, an entirely unrelated unit of measure.  One example I saw stated was that a 50-watt LED automobile headlamp bulb had the equivalent output to that of a 500-watt halogen.  Using watts in this way is like saying that your electric space heater is a 1500-watt ni-chrome IR bulb, which is just stupid.  But it all stems from the invention of the tungsten filament light bulb, which put out a specific amount of light depending on the power it consumed.  It was a frame of reference most consumers of the time could relate to, and it simultaneously told them the relative cost to use them.  So, the reference was stored, seemingly permanently, into our collective DNA.  Now that incandescents really are no longer a thing, manufacturers are starting to try to reverse that damage, but it will be another decade or three before the incorrect usage (mostly) goes away.  The only problem is that consumers will still want to know how much the thing will cost them when they flip the switch, and they pay in watts, so it will always be with us to some extent.

TLDR; Lotsa watts don't always mean hella bright

[lilshawn]

i'm coming up with my own measurement....with blackjack....and hookers!

[Fusselkroete]

Fusselkroete, don't let the criticisms cover up how grateful we are for this program.  I bought these guns a decade ago to add to my arcade cabinet.  Finally they are accurate enough to use them.  Thank you.   

QFT!  It's again important to emphasize that the software is extremely usable and with many options for dialing in accuracy, which is a huge accomplishment by Fusselkroete, especially given that the software is beta and free! 

The fact that it works so well even at this stage shows just how much potential it has to become the choice for folks wanting to add a relatively inexpensive, accurate and wireless light gun to their arcade setups, regardless of their technical background.  Any criticisms are meant to be 100% constructive.  They are just us "pointing out minor bumps in an otherwise smooth road" to hopefully help Fusselkroete to improve the user experience in future versions. 

Even the biggest issue I have found (which may or may not be specifically related to my setup) is not game-breaking, as the software recovers quickly enough to not be a major issue in actual use, so I would encourage any "fence-sitters" reading this to give it a try.  You won't be disappointed!

If I didn't see something great here, I wouldn't care enough to take the time.  But I do, I have, and will continue to do so until Fusselkroete tells me he's tired of reading my crap

luminary watt is different, but related to power watt in the case of incandescency (is that a word?).......but is different to the "watt" led's use to describe the output cause they try and equivalent it. and then try and throw in a meter^2 onto that to make it extra confusing.

That's why they should never have used the term "watt" with any LED (or other light source, for that matter) to describe it's output.  It's, scientifically speaking, an entirely unrelated unit of measure.  One example I saw stated was that a 50-watt LED automobile headlamp bulb had the equivalent output to that of a 500-watt halogen.  Using watts in this way is like saying that your electric space heater is a 1500-watt ni-chrome IR bulb, which is just stupid.  But it all stems from the invention of the tungsten filament light bulb, which put out a specific amount of light depending on the power it consumed.  It was a frame of reference most consumers of the time could relate to, and it simultaneously told them the relative cost to use them.  So, the reference was stored, seemingly permanently, into our collective DNA.  Now that incandescents really are no longer a thing, manufacturers are starting to try to reverse that damage, but it will be another decade or three before the incorrect usage (mostly) goes away.  The only problem is that consumers will still want to know how much the thing will cost them when they flip the switch, and they pay in watts, so it will always be with us to some extent.

TLDR; Lotsa watts don't always mean hella bright

Yeah no problem i see it also as constructive critism. Seems like he realy found a bug. i thought this was fixed already hehe or maybe his wiimote is broken. not sure   Thanks for all your feedback

[Fusselkroete]

Ok to summarize what we found out:

Seems like the BT dongle is not from the compatibility list from the guide: http://wiibrew.org/wiki/List_of_Working_Bluetooth_Devices
For all users out there better use an good compatible bt dongle like from the list.

I use "TP-Link UB400 Nano USB Bluetooth 4.0". The Problem is i can't test all the BT dongles out there, thats why the list suggestion .

But the wiimotes are connecting and the App become feeded with data. So maybe its not compatible, but it maybe can become compatible. So i have now several ideas how to make it more stable and many guesses why it fails:

# the bt dongle sends the data in a too low or too high frequency. too high frequency should not be a problem:
> Will try to interpolate this in future versions with one frame buffer or tell the user that the BT-Dongle is bad. Will do some tests with these two scanarios.

# timer resolution for time stamps could be different on this Operation system.
> Will check on that.

# the accelation sensor has different update timing for each device seperate from the wiimote update frequence. so maybe some accelation values get stucked all 2 frames or something.
> Will try to make a accelation check.


So big thanks to randy for giving me inspirations.

[RandyT]

After conversing with Fusselkroete, I'm even more stoked about his software.  I never even realized that the gyro was being utilized.  One thing I can say is when I can get it to do it's magic on my setup, it works great. 

RE: Bluetooth. 

Usually when there is a Bluetooth problem, it either A: doesn't connect at all or B: there is a lack of connected device support.  Neither of which seemed to be happening, so I assumed that it shouldn't be the source of the issues, because at times, it worked perfectly.  However, having dealt with similar issues personally with different USB chipsets, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the Bluetooth implementation (in my case, a modern Intel Wireless chipset) has some differences from the implementation used in the vast selection of known working BT USB dongles.  If Fusselkroete can pinpoint that source of contention, then great, but until then I will be picking up the same dongle he uses, to aid in testing.  Either I'll have a perfectly working setup with portability between systems as a result, or I'll be able to remove it as a possibility for what I have been seeing.  Either way is a positive, as the adapters aren't costly

But honestly, I am not convinced that BT is the cause of the behaviors I am seeing (I won't refer to them as "issues", because I haven't done any actual gameplay testing yet, and it's unlikely to cause major problems).  As of now, I have tested with 4 different bluetooth adapters.  1 which connected perfectly with the native Windows Bluetooth stack.  I have also tested with 3 other "generic" USB dongle BT adapters through the Toshiba Bluetooth stack.  2 of these connected up right away, while 1 was a little more problematic in getting the Toshiba stack to talk to it.  However, all were tested and showed exactly the same behavior, tested with two different Wii remotes.

Were I to guess, and let me stress that I am , my guess would be that the algorithm which processes the acceleration values is at the root of the undesirable behavior.  But thankfully, Fusselkroete has been very responsive and is "on the hunt" for a solution.  For that I am grateful, as this setup works nearly perfectly and I am excited to put it to use.

RE: LEDs.

-------------
WARNING:  Do things the way you want and don't think that just because it works for me, it'll work for you.  Parts and installation skills vary, so test everything to make sure it meets your standards for safety and reliability.  The following is not a recommendation!
-------------

With that out of the way, I just thought I would provide an update on my LED install.  The 6.5v supply and the 4 850nm LEDs soldered in series with 18ga wire to act as a de-facto heat sink, terminated to a 1/4w resistor labeled as .1 ohms, seems to be working just fine.  The LEDs are warm, as is about 3" of the connecting wires on each side of the LED, but not approaching anything I would consider hot.  The 2.5amp supply I selected barely gets warm even after many hours of being powered continuously.  On the 50" screen, I am able to be 10' away and still have them visible to the camera.  So, I'm pretty happy with the way this has been working out so far. 

However, with this type of setup, the wire will affect things, so that's important to consider.  A fraction of an ohm of resistance will change how much power the LEDs get, and the wire is sinking heat from them.  Therefore, differences in length and gauge will very likely show different overall results.  Anyone deciding to go this route should at minimum check operating temperatures of everything on occasion, and definitely place an appropriately small fuse in-line in case something were to go wrong. And be sure to turn them off when not actively being used or unattended. If one of the LEDs should happen to stop consuming it's share of the power and passes it on to the others, the rest will get real hot, real fast, so a current limiting device such as the one used by BadMouth is a much safer approach.

[BadMouth]

For the record my Asus USBBT500 bluetooth dongle has behaved perfectly since installing on the cab.

With Lichtknarre running in the background all I have to do is turn on the guns and press/release the sync button.
Haven't timed it, but after anywhere from a few to ten seconds they both pair and are ready to go.

I tested it by turning off the guns and turning them back on a few hours later as well as shutting the computer down and powering it back on.
I think they'll work out fine on the cab.  The user just has to know to press the sync button and wait for it to pair (indicated by the lights on the gun).

I just measured and from my playing position the tip of the gun is only 25" from the 27" (16:9) screen.  The lens on the guns look flat from the outside, but it must be fisheye.

New wire comes in today.  I will know more when I start configuring games.

[RandyT]

For the record my Asus USBBT500 bluetooth dongle has behaved perfectly since installing on the cab.

With Lichtknarre running in the background all I have to do is turn on the guns and press/release the sync button.
Haven't timed it, but after anywhere from a few to ten seconds they both pair and are ready to go.

That describes exactly the simple experience I had with the Intel on-board BT and the standard stack shipped with Win10.  Once paired in the BT devices, Windows knew about the controllers and they just connected with the double button press from that time on.  Very pain-free compared to having to use an external BT stack like the Toshiba one, so having a BT adapter which works with the native Windows stack is definitely a big plus.

Edit:  Just started from scratch again and saw that Lichtknarre didn't even require the (secret?) BT setup step from within Windows.  It just paired it up....amazing as usual

[BadMouth]

LEDs worked fine last night.  This morning they didn't light.  Top center one seems dead.  The same thing happened previously when I had them taped to my desktop, but I wasn't using heatsinks then and was experimenting with the amount of current I was giving them.  In the cab they only receive 300mA and the heatsinks didn't even get warm.  This one was subjected to the soldering iron a couple more times because it was wired backwards to begin with.

Not sure what this means, but let me know if you have any of these LEDs fail Randy.

[RandyT]

LEDs worked fine last night.  This morning they didn't light.  Top center one seems dead.  The same thing happened previously when I had them taped to my desktop, but I wasn't using heatsinks then and was experimenting with the amount of current I was giving them.  In the cab they only receive 300mA and the heatsinks didn't even get warm.  This one was subjected to the soldering iron a couple more times because it was wired backwards to begin with.

Not sure what this means, but let me know if you have any of these LEDs fail Randy.

So far, so good on mine.  I forgot to turn mine off one time and they were on for 24hrs continuous. 

It could very well have been the extra soldering. Usually, this type of LED only sees a trip through a tightly temperature-controlled reflow oven, so the iron shouldn't be hotter than necessary, and one should work quickly with it.

For anyone who might not be sure how to solder these, I've found the best approach is to use a good flux, and place a liberally-sized blob of solder on both the wire end and the wing of the LED.  Then place the wire end onto the wing and heat the wire until the two blobs just melt together and get the iron away from it.  There are tools for heatsinking temperature sensitive parts while soldering, but that's probably overkill for these as long as one works quickly.

[RandyT]

BT Update:

I received the TP-Link UB400 units today...Unfortunately, they are exactly the same units internally as the generic CSR 4.0 dongles I have already tested from my collection.  I assume the TP-Link units are legit, as I have verified through the documentation that they do indeed use the CSR 4.0 chipset.

Unfortunately, I still see the same odd tilting behavior with the new dongles.    But I guess on the bright side, if this does get resolved, I haven't found a BT adapter yet which wouldn't connect up.

Fusselkroete:  Does your TP-Link UB400 dongle also show up as a "Generic Bluetooth Radio" with Device ID VID_0A12&PID_0001?  Just want to make sure I've exhausted all possibilities for error.

[Fusselkroete]

BT Update:

I received the TP-Link UB400 units today...Unfortunately, they are exactly the same units internally as the generic CSR 4.0 dongles I have already tested from my collection.  I assume the TP-Link units are legit, as I have verified through the documentation that they do indeed use the CSR 4.0 chipset.

Unfortunately, I still see the same odd tilting behavior with the new dongles.    But I guess on the bright side, if this does get resolved, I haven't found a BT adapter yet which wouldn't connect up.

Fusselkroete:  Does your TP-Link UB400 dongle also show up as a "Generic Bluetooth Radio" with Device ID VID_0A12&PID_0001?  Just want to make sure I've exhausted all possibilities for error.

Hi i spoke with some user user who used the same dongle and had this CSR driver installed. Windows tend to use the CSR Driver when another dongle installed it. But when you delete the driver than this dongle will be recognized as generic bluetooth dongle under windows and will work fine. i will add that to the troubleshooting guide. i think maybe you can erease this driver DriverStoreExplorer. But on your own risk.

Update:

ok ask him again. he only deleted the driver over windows manager.

[RandyT]

Hi i spoke with some user user who used the same dongle and had this CSR driver installed. Windows tend to use the CSR Driver when another dongle installed it. But when you delete the driver than this dongle will be recognized as generic bluetooth dongle under windows and will work fine. i will add that to the troubleshooting guide. i think maybe you can erease this driver DriverStoreExplorer. But on your own risk.

Update:

ok ask him again. he only deleted the driver over windows manager.

For older operating systems, The TP-Link dongle wants the "Harmony" CSR stuff.  None of that was installed.  It's just using the standard generic drivers from Microsoft.   I suspect you will see the same hardware IDs on your BT adapter.

Unfortunately, no difference in behavior with the UB400 dongle.

[BadMouth]

Fusselkroete,

About the offsets for 4:3 vs widescreen games; I planned to bother you after checking to see if there was already a solution people were using for other guns.
There doesn't appear to be.

I know I can manually change the offsets https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/,
but for an arcade cabinet we like to have this change be automatic.

I know this is a future feature that is planned:

Someday there will be a profile-feature for settings available. This feature can also switch profiles when a specific process runs. Than you can load different offsets for different games.

The emulators in our arcade cabinets are launched and controlled via command line.  If I could change offsets via command line (small batch file), that is all I would need to accomplish everything.
No need to track which processes are running.

Most games have original service menu calibrations which make the gun work perfectly, but it would be nice to know they will work for even the old oddball games.

[RandyT]

Just wanted to give an update.  Fusselkoete has been amazingly responsive to my whining ( ), and provided me with a test version which no longer exhibits the odd behavior I outlined in earlier posts.  I am stunned at just how well this works now! Super Fast and accurate, with no weirdness.  It's as close to an actual light gun on a CRT as I have ever experienced on an LCD (plasma in my case) panel, and I have experienced plenty of other attempts to get there.  And this one is even wireless!

So, I didn't really need any different BT adapters, but they won't go to waste.  I did, however, get some experience testing these.  I can say that there's no need to get overly concerned about the adapter type.  But I can also say that one should probably avoid the older Broadcom adapters and stick with the cheapo CSR 4.0 type adapters, at least on Win10.  I'd even go as far as saying that just about any modern BT implementation already working with Win10, will very likely work with Lichtknarre, so if you have one already built into a recent MB, you should at least try that one first!  I tested with an older Broadcom adapter built into my laptop, and while it worked and connected as well as any other, performance was very poor (slow).  But I am a happy camper now and feel quite positive about setting up to actually put all of this to use .  Well done Fusselkroete!  And thankfully, he's not done with the software.  It looks like more positive features are on the way!

[Fusselkroete]

Fusselkroete,

About the offsets for 4:3 vs widescreen games; I planned to bother you after checking to see if there was already a solution people were using for other guns.
There doesn't appear to be.

I know I can manually change the offsets https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/,
but for an arcade cabinet we like to have this change be automatic.

I know this is a future feature that is planned:

Someday there will be a profile-feature for settings available. This feature can also switch profiles when a specific process runs. Than you can load different offsets for different games.

The emulators in our arcade cabinets are launched and controlled via command line.  If I could change offsets via command line (small batch file), that is all I would need to accomplish everything.
No need to track which processes are running.

Most games have original service menu calibrations which make the gun work perfectly, but it would be nice to know they will work for even the old oddball games.

Hi first of all your cab looks amazing!

will make this profilemanager also manageable over commandline. The commandline forward to already running process is already implemented in new testversion.
4 LED Tracker will get a Game-Offset configuration also. Atm im very busy but all development will continue in january.

[RandyT]

Just wanted to add a note here that I have tried a cheap fish-eye lens held somewhat precariously onto the front of the controller with a drop off hot melt.  Before I knocked it off by accidentally hitting it on the edge of my desk, I was able to confirm that it works surprisingly well.  It easily cut the distance I needed to be from the screen for all blobs to be visible to the camera, to half of what it was prior, with no adverse effect on tracking ability.  But I did notice a vertical offset, perhaps due to the lens not being exactly aligned with the optical axis of the camera.  I will continue to experiment with this and it will most likely become a permanent addition to my gun shell.  I would recommend this to others as well, especially for larger screen sizes in 16:9 formats.

And as a goof, I start looking for non-lightgun titles to play with the lightgun.  For some reason, the original starwars game came immediately to mind. While this might be considered sacrilege, I imagine most aren't playing that game with a yoke, so I don't see a difference.  It worked extremely well, and I was able to get through 3 levels and got a score of 185k on the first serious game.  Most of all, it was actually fun to play that way!

If anyone knows how to force Missile Command to work with a lightgun, please let me know 

[RandyT]

This is turning into a diary 

I was finally able to spend some time actually trying out some of my old favorites, and even though the emulation in MAME isn't up to par, I had a good time with Virtua Cop, which I haven't played since disconnecting my old Sega consoles and putting them into storage. 

I'm not sure if it's a placebo effect, but I too noticed that crosshair movement seems much quicker when the vJoy module is used and the Analog Sensitivity in MAME is cranked to maximum.  I'm not sure how much it affects things, but I recommend doing this anyway as it there are no negatives.

My personal biggest hurdle when playing without a crosshair of any kind is that I am VERY used to the GunCon2 controller, and I know exactly where it is aiming on-screen without needing to look down the sites.  While the PerfectShot shells feel good in the hand and work pretty smoothly, the angles are slightly different from the GC2, and there is very little visual feedback in VC for where the shots are landing to regain orientation, without using the sites.  A little "creative calibration" seemed to help in this regard, however...

In order for me to transition to this particular gun, it was necessary to have some sort of crosshair visible on the screen as a training aid, but the default MAME crosshair is huge and somewhat silly looking, so I made my own laser-dot crosshair, which is small and unobtrusive.  I have to say, with this crosshair graphic the Lichtknarre software makes it feel like you literally have a laser-pointer on the business end of your controller.   After a few rounds of using it, I turned it off and found that my aim had improved greatly and the laser-crosshair was no longer necessary.  But leaving it on is still great fun, even if it feels a bit like cheating.

I have attached the file for anyone who would like to use it.  It can be unzipped into your MAME working folder with the folder structure intact, in case you don't already have a folder made for these.

I've also tested a number of rounds in PointBlank.  While I haven't yet been able to do as well with this type of title with the new gun and the Lichtknarre software, as I am able to do with the GC2 on my PS2 and 37" CRT, it's much closer than I would have imagined.  So far, I am VERY impressed with the software and I suspect that it will only get better! 

[BadMouth]

We designed a bunch of crosshair options back in the day for Troubleshooter 2 including different color laser sights.
Couldn't find the thread, but they are in the Troubleshooter 2 download.
http://dragonking.arcadecontrols.com/static.php?page=aboutTS2
(download link is on the right column)

I am good without crosshairs. 

[RandyT]

We designed a bunch of crosshair options back in the day for Troubleshooter 2 including different color laser sights.
Couldn't find the thread, but they are in the Troubleshooter 2 download.
http://dragonking.arcadecontrols.com/static.php?page=aboutTS2
(download link is on the right column)

I am good without crosshairs. 

That's a good selection!  But honestly, I was looking for one which wasn't so large and dense in the center, rather a bit more "ethereal" as I wanted a reference to see where I was currently aiming before acquiring the next target, but not something so "in your face" as to focus on using it to aim.  The one I posted is truthfully a bit difficult to see at times, especially given MAME's function of pulsing the image (at least it seems to on mine.)  But it does help to get a feel for a different gun than one might be used to, or if one has never used a gun, sans crosshairs, but would eventually like to without relying on the sights.

I think one of the issues I have with this gun setup is the overall balance/weight distribution.  With the entire Wii remote (and batteries) perched atop a hollow plastic shell, it tends to be a little top and forward heavy, which I am really not used to, coming from the GC2.  The trigger pull is also very different from a traditional "built-for-purpose" gun controller with a proper microswitch trigger.  I think that I may be taking this shell apart and adding some weight to the grip area to help balance it a little better.  Eventually, I'll probably do a full-on controller hack with some custom shells, which will provide a proper trigger and place the other buttons where they can be used without an awkward hold.

You don't know how good you have it with the controller you have (j/k I'm sure you do )

[RandyT]

Note to self:  If MAME says a game is not working, it's really not working, no matter how much it seems to be (duh).

My issues with VC were almost entirely related to testing with incomplete emulation.  Lag, missed shots not showing locations (as it turns out they should have been) and some hits not even registering were making things tougher in MAME than they should have been. A properly working emulator for this title made a massive difference.

If there was a reload button which wasn't on top of the gun, gameplay with this setup would be nearly perfect.  I dare say as good as a CRT lightgun and maybe even better in some aspects.  That's something I never thought I would be typing. 

[BadMouth]

If there was a reload button which wasn't on top of the gun, gameplay with this setup would be nearly perfect.  I dare say as good as a CRT lightgun and maybe even better in some aspects.  That's something I never thought I would be typing. 

Virtua Cop works fine in Model 2 Emulator.  Using gun as a mouse works by default, but the Troubleshooter 2 program is required to have 2 guns working.
I haven't had time to set up Troubleshooter 2 and Demulshooter for proper 2 player action.  My dishwasher leaked and ruined the subfloor, so now I have to do a kitchen remodel including building the cabinets.  I was looking forward to doing it someday, but not under these circumstances with this low of a budget.

Just in case you don't have it set, there is an option in mame.ini for...

offscreen_reload          1

[TimeCrisis]

anyone got pcsx2 or TC5 working on it yet? geekonarium's video link said he couldn't get it to work.

[Howard_Casto]

I've been quietly following this thread waiting for you guys to figure out the best leds/spacing/ect.   Once you do it's rather trivial to send rumble/led commands to a wiimote, which of course could be hacked to control a solenoid. 

[RandyT]

I've been quietly following this thread waiting for you guys to figure out the best leds/spacing/ect.   Once you do it's rather trivial to send rumble/led commands to a wiimote, which of course could be hacked to control a solenoid.

For the LEDs, the ones BadMouth found are working really well.  I can't imagine a reason for looking further, unless one has a specifically different type of installation in mind (i.e. projector).  But I very much recommend that they be tested with a standard 1.5v battery (or a bench supply set to 1.5v if you have one) prior to soldering.  The third string I put together was dead when I tested it, and I was extremely conscious to the polarity so I knew it wasn't a wiring error on my part.  Turns out that the first LED in the string was completely dead, and either it was that way out of the package, or I put a little too much heat to it, which is possible, but unlikely.  I also noticed that at least one of them I tested from the package had a very different current draw at the same voltage as the others, which is really only observable with a bench supply or a meter.  If possible, it's a good idea to look at this as well before making the string. 

But so far, I have had these running for many hours without issues, which brings me to another point.  BadMouth's observation about the 840nm having an advantage of being slightly visible, to help prevent leaving them on when not in use, is spot on.  They are absolutely not distracting during use (I don't even see them), but serve as a gentle reminder to turn them off, which I have forgotten to do on several occasions.

RE: Positioning.

I've used the little application I made twice, and both times everything just worked after eyeballing positions against the lines on the screen after the measurements were taken.  As the last one was on my 37" CRT, it also helped to adjust the image size and position properly.  Honestly, positioning was the easiest part.  TIP:  if using this on a CRT, set it and forget it (size and position).   If you like to twiddle knobs on your CRT, you will screw up your nice calibration.  In that sense, flat panels are more dimensionally stable.

RE: Rumble.

The software already sends a rumble to the remote on trigger press, so it wouldn't be hard to turn that into a solenoid actuation.  The trick would be to come up with a "driver" for each game to inject it into the control stream, without messing up the core function of the Lichtknarre software.  But I expect that may be possible at some point using the plug-in system he has planned.