Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Lichtknarre: Unmodified Wii remote as a sight accurate Lightgun using 2/4 LEDs  (Read 35195 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I created this thread to share thoughts and experiences with this software, so as not to rough-up other threads.

It appears there is a piece of software called Lichtknarre that uses 4 IR LED tracking with unmodified Wii remotes.  Looks kinda janky, but I am going to try it.
Hopefully I have some bare IR LEDs somewhere.  Might try it with the dolphin bar first just to see how the software functions.

Thank you for posting about this software.  I went digging for just this type of application,but didn't see it referenced anywhere.

IMHO, this is one of the best ways to approach using the sensor in the Wii remotes for light guns.  Not only are there a number of gun shells commercially available for the controllers, but they are wireless and there are also dedicated guns which may end up working with the software, even if not using the same IR camera module.  Even cheap Knock-off Wii controllers may end up working with it, albeit likely not as well.  Based on my research, the important functions of the WiiMote IR camera module are exposed to the Wii through the remote, including the ability to sense up to 4 "blobs" (IR beacons.)  This means that anything which is possible to do with other solutions using those sensors as a foundation, should also be possible to do in an application like this one.  All without custom PCBs, desoldering components, building circuits, gutting expensive lightguns for their plastic shells, etc.

Definitely post the results of your tests here, if you would.  I will be digging the controllers out of my boxed up and stored Wii over the next few days to play with this and will probably do the same :)

Oof:  Probably should add a link so others won't need to hunt it down: Lichtknarre 2/4 LEDs Lightgun System
And by Badmouth's request, here is a link to the author's Github page for the Plugins, in case the smart folks here want to give it a shot: Lichtknarre Plugin
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 10:26:34 am by RandyT »

ryoken

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
  • Last login:October 15, 2022, 06:43:46 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
 I try it. And I most say. The tracking and accuracy is really good. I also have the gun4ir and compare to that system the latency is almost the same. But it makes everything way more convenient because it can work on the normal wiimote. And is wireless

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I try it. And I most say. The tracking and accuracy is really good. I also have the gun4ir and compare to that system the latency is almost the same. But it makes everything way more convenient because it can work on the normal wiimote. And is wireless

Sounds very promising!  Thanks for the report.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I agree a dedicated thread is needed.  I haven't got around to testing it yet because I am dedicating a lot of time to other projects.  The author has the same guns as me though.   :D  It's good to know that they will work ahead of time.  How well is yet to be determined.


BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I found a bag of LEDs with 940IR scribbled on it.  No idea of the specs and haven't messed with LEDs in a while, but a youtube video says 15mA to be safe, 20mA max.
Hooked up a 5v power supply (probably too much) and swapped out resistors until I got up to 19mA.  Nothing got hot.  They (or maybe the power supply) lasted about 20 minutes.

I made it far enough to verify that the guns connect and see four LEDs, but didn't make it to the point of aiming.  I could redo it using these LEDs with higher value resistors or run them in series, but the beam on them is so tight that they have to be pointed right at the gun. 

Not wanting to wait for AliExpress, I ordered what I could find on Amazon without spending too much:
3w 850nm IR LEDs with 140 degree lens built in
a constant current buck converter

To keep the cost to a minimum until I know it works, I didn't buy the pcb and housing they recommend.
For a heatsink I plan attach them to a short piece of round aluminum stock with thermal glue.
If the aluminum gets too hot I can make it longer or add heatsinks to the other end.

So not much to report yet, but I am working on it.

I did think their way of handling LED placement was kind of neat.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 09:25:02 am by BadMouth »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I finally went digging and found a sack of 100ma 940nm LEDS I picked up ages ago.  Managed to dig up the datasheet for them, but it's the typical Chinese datasheet which gives the MAX without really providing the typical operating current.  They show testing data for 20 and 50ma of forward current and make reference to pulsed operation elsewhere, so I have no idea what they are safe to run at.  But I have a bag of them, so I guess I'll jack one up and let it go for a few hours to see what happens.  Still haven't found the Wii remotes though :)

The calibration instructions are interesting.  I take it to mean that it wants a uniform distance from the screen edge on all sides, and in those linear locations.  Is that the way you read it?  If so, the language for disregarding the instructions and measuring seems a little overcomplicating.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I finally went digging and found a sack of 100ma 940nm LEDS I picked up ages ago.  Managed to dig up the datasheet for them, but it's the typical Chinese datasheet which gives the MAX without really providing the typical operating current.  They show testing data for 20 and 50ma of forward current and make reference to pulsed operation elsewhere, so I have no idea what they are safe to run at.  But I have a bag of them, so I guess I'll jack one up and let it go for a few hours to see what happens.  Still haven't found the Wii remotes though :)

The calibration instructions are interesting.  I take it to mean that it wants a uniform distance from the screen edge on all sides, and in those linear locations.  Is that the way you read it?  If so, the language for disregarding the instructions and measuring seems a little overcomplicating.

I thought the instructions sounded complicated at first, but after a while it sunk in.  All it is really saying is the top and bottom LEDs need to be in the middle horizontally (the line between them splitting the screen 50/50) and then the height of the side LEDs (measured from the bottom LED) should be 26% of the distance between the bottom and top LEDs, not necessarily the screen.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I thought the instructions sounded complicated at first, but after a while it sunk in.  All it is really saying is the top and bottom LEDs need to be in the middle horizontally (the line between them splitting the screen 50/50) and then the height of the side LEDs (measured from the bottom LED) should be 26% of the distance between the bottom and top LEDs, not necessarily the screen.

Any progress?  I did manage to find a Wii Remote, a nunchuk controller and my trusty old Activision/Cabelas "shotgun".   May find a use for that thing yet.

One thing which seems promising, is that on my Win10 machine, I just held the buttons according to the directions and the software linked it right up to my integrated Bluetooth adapter no problem. The buttons seemed responsive, but that's about as far as I got without LEDs set up to test the rest.  If the ones you ordered do a good job, I'll probably follow suit.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I made a wiring harness today for the LEDs and tested how warm they get.  They are 3 watt, but I think I can get away with no heatsink if I run them like 1 watt ones.  The $7 current limiter is definitely the way to go.  Adjustable and no messing with giant resistors getting hot.  I am running the LEDs in series at 6.5 volts and 300mA.  The package says they are rated for 700mA, but I am only giving them enough to get the job done.  Once they are in the cab behind smoked plexi, I may have to turn it up and add heatsinks.  I used fairly thick wire, so that is probably helping wick heat away.

The wide angle lens incorporated into the LED is also definitely the way to go.  The old LEDs were only visible straight on.  These are good from any angle and it's a very small package without the big lens and housing recommended by the author of the software.  I will post links when I get back to a PC.

My ancient bluetooth adapter wouldn't stay connected to both guns just like the old glovepie days, so I bought a new Asus one.  The first gun connects easy, but the second one takes multiple tries.  Once connected they stay connected, but the process has to be repeated every time the software is launched.  I might have just not gone far enough yet, but I don't see how this could be incorporated into a front end.

All I have to do is tape the LEDs to the monitor and I'll be ready for testing.  Might get to it tonight.  If not tonight, tomorrow.

Locke141

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1690
  • Last login:February 03, 2024, 06:00:00 am
  • Never grow up.
I haven't been on in a while but love this post. There's some YouTube videos up

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Hi, this tool can also help you to configure the axis in the emulator.
You can find it for example under P1 > more Settings > Movement execution tool. This tool will than work for p1 as long it stays open. You can use the equivalents for the other players aswell.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Iqqrd5z-YkHZMC3wM-BR5rOcH67aZPtk/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 04:07:03 am by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I could be wrong, but think the author just found us.  Probably due to the new traffic ;D

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I'll repeat a bit of my last post to pack more relevant info into this one.

LEDs are 850nm 3w with built a in 140 degree lens.  When they are powered, there is a bit of red visible to the naked eye.  It is subtle and not distracting, but 940nm ones would probably work just as well and have no visible light.  I like that I can see that they are on.
These are the ones I used: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B08XQDLS8L?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 
I am not saying they are the best for the job.  I primarily bought them because I could get them quickly.

They were ran in series 6.5 volts and 300mA.  This is less than half of the rated current, but it keeps them cool enough to not use heatsinks.
This is the buck converter/current limiter I am using: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07G446KHJ?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
(Not sure if it is a good one or not.  It took a while to get the voltage adjustment working.)

For the sake of completeness, I am using an Asus USBBT500 bluetooth dongle.  I am sure there are cheaper ones that will work.

This video was helpful in my understanding of how to set the LEDs up:


I just wired them in series in a loop (+ in then - to +, - to +, etc ).  (That is a thermocouple taped to the first one to measure temps)


It could just be that I'm inexperienced with it, but I found the calibration screen difficult to do holding the gun by hand so I ended up holding it with a phone mount on a tripod.
With the gun stationary, I could move the LEDs to get the correct numbers on the screen.  The side ones ended up needing to be moved inward closer to the edge of the screen while the top one needed moved off the top of the monitor.  I am sure this will be easier once I wrap my mind around everything, but it felt a bit overhelming trying to get it right at first.  I am sure I will be able to explain it better after doing it again on my cab.



Once the LED locations were calibrated I tested the gun as a mouse.  It was drifting a bit toward the edges.  I played around with the offset calibration to correct this.
I thought the offset calibration wizard was going to be helpful as it has you get close enough to only see two LEDs, but in the end I didn't find it useful and preferred to play around entering my own numbers.  Basically playing the high low game until I found the value where the mouse pointer was dead on with the gun sights near the edges of the screen.

So gun calibrated I launch MAME and learned how much I've forgotten.  No fake mouse input in MAME.  So I switch to the vjoy plugin and it doesn't work because I don't have vjoy installed on this PC.  So after getting vjoy and MAME square away, the first thing I notice is that the on-screen crosshairs in MAME trail pretty bad.  It doesn't cost me to miss any shots, but not ideal I guess.  Luckily there is a setting for this in Lichtknarre.  Under "More Settings" next to each player is a "Step" setting.  I double it and the trailing is pretty much gone.  Not sure at what expense, but the games were perfectly playable without crosshairs at the stock setting.

In mame with vjoy, the offset near the edges still seemed a bit off.  I am pretty sure it could be adjusted or corrected in the games original service menu, but I didn't want to get into that yet.  Using the sights on the gun, the shots were close enough to count as a hit in all the games I tried, but it still felt like it could use some tuning. 

I guess I should be more positive here:  Yes, it works well enough that you can use the gun sights and turn off the on-screen crosshairs..and from a distance I would expect to play light gun games at.  The gun was around 40" from a 27" monitor.   At least that is my experience with these Walther replica Wii guns.   ;D

Vjoy is an extra layer that affects the testing, so I moved on to Demul where I could just use it as a mouse.

I started off with House of the Dead 2's service menu.  After playing some HOTD2 and Maze of Kings, I moved on to Sport Shooting USA.
This is the game to test guns on!  I took my time to dial in the calibration in the game's original service menu.
How well do they work?  Watch the video below.  I am aiming using only the gun's sights from 40 inches away.  You can see that the shot doesn't always correspond to the mouse pointer.  That is the game's original arcade calibration at work.  For the second round of shooting, I managed to get some decent footage from behind the gun.  The next to the last shot misses and you can see that I had the gun turned.  When I straighten it, the shot lands.  EDIT:  I also want to mention that the camera on my phone messed with the wii camera despite having the light disabled.  It would make the crosshairs jump to random places.  I put tape over the LED on the phone and the crosshairs became stable.


So in summary:

It meets my standards for accuracy and distance from the cabinet.
I will be installing this on my cab.
I will have some tuning to do to use the vjoy plugin.
Setup and calibration feels a bit klunky and stressful, but I am sure we can improve it once we understand it better.

Front-end integration is probably not going to happen, but I wouldn't rule it out completely.
It took a while to get both guns connected, but when I relaunched the program and pressed the sync button on them, they both immediately paired.
On these guns, it seems that I only have to press the sync button, not hold it down.  I think holding it down before was actually preventing them from pairing.

If you have wii guns, it is definitely worth it.

EDIT: Randy, please add the author's github to the first post: https://github.com/Geekonarium/LichtknarrePlugin
Maybe one of the talented people at BYOAC will take an interest in helping develop it.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 08:18:15 pm by BadMouth »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Plugin page link added to the original post.

Very nice writeup.  But a couple of comments/questions. 

(Edit: Just re-read your post and it wasn't clear whether the supply was 6.5v or whether that is what you had it adjusted to through the buck converter.  If the latter, you can disregard the next paragraph.  Probably still worth reading, as a 6.5v power supply might be a viable alternate approach and I have no idea what you are feeding the converter.)

The first is: Is the buck converter even necessary with 4 of those LEDs in series and the 6.5v power supply, assuming that is what you are using?  Based on my shoddy calculations (so take them with a grain of salt), if each of the LEDs are being driven at 1.6v (roughly 1/4 of the available voltage) with a draw of 300ma, only 30mw of power would need to be dissipated by a .33ohm resistor, so even a 1/4 watt resistor would be overkill.  I think the difficulties you are having with the buck converter is that it is a step-down converter, and there may not be enough differential between input and output for it to work well. Hell, with a decent 6.5v regulated supply, I'd just hook the 4 of them in series, without a resistor or anything, just to see what happens.  But that's me, so check the numbers and make your own decisions. 

And as usual with the Chinese datasheets, the data they provide seems to be contradictory...at least for the two longer wavelength IR parts.  The graph shows a voltage range of 1.8 to 2.2, while the ratings chart states 1.6 to 2.0.  If I were to guess, they just copied the graphs from the 740nm parts, so they aren't correct for the other IR parts.  The actual curves probably won't differ too much, so you can probably just drop them down a couple of points on the voltage scale to get a ball-park and stick to the 1.6v to 1.8v rating.

About your setup.  Visually, and based on the position of the blobs, I think your LED positioning was at least initially incorrect.  As I stated earlier about the calibration explanation, assuming your monitor image fits perfectly to the frame, my gut feeling is that the LED's need to be an equal distance from the edge on all 4 sides, and at the positions indicated by the positioning calibration lines image you posted earlier.  From your photo, the top and bottom LEDs are outside the frame, and the left and right are inside, with one of them appearing to be closer to the screen edge than the other.  Those lines connecting them should be a nice, straight cross pattern, and I believe that what it may be showing you is the positioning error.  Even though you got it to work, I think the position of the LEDs made it a lot harder than it should have been.  Again, just an observation, I wasn't there.

And one final comment is the speakers.  Maybe it's not a problem, but with the wide angle of the LEDs, I have to believe that at some angles, you are going to get reflections off the sides of the speakers which will impact the accuracy of the system.  Depending on how the code is written, this can affect not only stability of the cursor, but possibly also tracking speed, as some of the jittery values caused by this could be seen to be "out-of-reasonable-range" and discarded as error, causing the system to be waiting for something more reasonable to arrive to be averaged into the position data.  To get a good test, I would think that at minimum, the screen should be brought out past the front of those speakers.

It might also be interesting to try with an OG Wii remote, as the camera in the gun, as nice (and rare) as that gun is, may be inferior to the ones used in the OEM Wii remotes.  If it's the one with the sub-board with a bunch of components around the camera and a couple of black blobs on the back, then it's probably the same as the Chinese "knock-off" Wii remotes, which reportedly aren't very good. :(

Ok, I'm done for now  :lol

Edit:  Ok, one more thing...the reason your phone was interfering was likely due to the auto-focus.  Probably an IR range finder/lidar thing sending out pulses when the camera is on.  If you can turn off auto-focus, it might stop doing that :)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 01:43:05 am by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I am stepping down from 12 volts.  My cab has a 12v power supply in it for the monitor rotation that I plan to tap into.  They will eventually be turned on and off via software.  I also might need to up the current to make them brighter behind the smoked plexi on the cab.

The package the LEDs came in said 1.5-1.8V .700mA (which I assume is 700mA, so who knows if these are correct.)

I started with the LEDs an equal distance from the edge of the screen.  Where they are now is where they ended up through the calibration process.  It's all about their relationship to each other so all four could be moved down, but the sides would still be right on the edge of the screen while the top and bottom aren't.  Getting it this good was not easy.  You will see, lol.  Hopefully the cab will come out better since I have some experience now.

The speakers are behind the front edge of the monitor.  Pretty sure what you are seeing is lens flares.  I was wondering if they were as bad for the Wii camera.

This was just a temporary taped on setup to see if it worked well enough to bother with.  It does.

EDIT:  ahhhh.....the autofocus.  Makes perfect sense.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 03:54:51 am by BadMouth »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I also forgot to mention that with vjoy the games have to be played stretched widescreen.  I think calibrating in the in game service menu on games that allow for it could allow them to be played in 4:3,  but haven't tried it.  Also remember to always decrease MAME's default 30% deadzone and increase saturation to 100% for analog controls.  It just dawned on the that the trailing on screen crosshairs probably could have been improved by cranking up the sensitivity in MAME's in game options.  I wasn't thinking in terms of analog controls, but if it is ran through vjoy and showing up as joysticks, all those settings come into effect.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 08:15:57 am by BadMouth »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Everything sounds good then.  I noted the lens flares, and since the Wii camera has a simple, single focus lens, I don't think it experiences them.  I swear the photo makes it look like the monitor was inset, but photos are funny things when it comes to finding depth.  And there should be no problem stepping down from 12v.  Maybe just a janky multi-turn pot.  Apologies for the back-seat driving, just thinking extremely out-loud :)  At least others reading my ramblings might see some things to avoid.

I was still trying to get my brain to swallow the LED positioning (sorry for being a dingbat).  But I think I get it now.  The horizontal line of the on-screen LED position screen is only useful if you are able to position the top and bottom LEDs at exactly the points to which they intersect with their respective screen edges.  I think what needs to be done to simplify this is to make this a multi-step process with either some extra code or a small external app.  The way I see this working would be:

1: A vertical line is shown on-screen as a reference to center the top and bottom LEDs, maybe with some verbiage to place them as close as possible to the active screen edges to keep the shooting distance reasonable, due to the camera's limited vertical FOV.

2: Put up a couple of input boxes for the user to enter the measured distance from the center of the LED or cluster to the active screen edge for top and bottom respectively.  Then from those two values, calculate a vertical offset to achieve the proper ratio.  I have to think about this more to come up with the formula, but I don't think it's too complicated.

3: Show a horizontal line on the screen at the position calculated in step two, with some verbiage to place the side LEDs in-line with it and to maintain equal spacing from the active screen edge, which should keep them equidistant from center.

Does this sound remotely correct?

And thanks for the link to the LEDs.  Amazon's curated search results must have kept me from seeing those, as they never came up in my attempts to find them.    :angry:
Edit:  FWIW, it kept showing me these, which are cheaper and are probably the same, but probably wouldn't get delivered as fast as not shipped by Amazon.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 01:05:11 pm by RandyT »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Everything sounds good then.  I noted the lens flares, and since the Wii camera has a simple, single focus lens, I don't think it experiences them.  I swear the photo makes it look like the monitor was inset, but photos are funny things when it comes to finding depth.  And there should be no problem stepping down from 12v.  Maybe just a janky multi-turn pot.  Apologies for the back-seat driving, just thinking extremely out-loud :)  At least others reading my ramblings might see some things to avoid.

I was still trying to get my brain to swallow the LED positioning (sorry for being a dingbat).  But I think I get it now.  The horizontal line of the on-screen LED position screen is only useful if you are able to position the top and bottom LEDs at exactly the points to which they intersect with their respective screen edges.  I think what needs to be done to simplify this is to make this a multi-step process with either some extra code or a small external app.  The way I see this working would be:

1: A vertical line is shown on-screen as a reference to center the top and bottom LEDs, maybe with some verbiage to place them as close as possible to the active screen edges to keep the shooting distance reasonable, due to the camera's limited vertical FOV.

2: Put up a couple of input boxes for the user to enter the measured distance from the center of the LED or cluster to the active screen edge for top and bottom respectively.  Then from those two values, calculate a vertical offset to achieve the proper ratio.  I have to think about this more to come up with the formula, but I don't think it's too complicated.

3: Show a horizontal line on the screen at the position calculated in step two, with some verbiage to place the side LEDs in-line with it and to maintain equal spacing from the active screen edge, which should keep them equidistant from center.

Does this sound remotely correct?

And thanks for the link to the LEDs.  Amazon's curated search results must have kept me from seeing those, as they never came up in my attempts to find them.    :angry:
Edit:  FWIW, it kept showing me these, which are cheaper and are probably the same, but probably wouldn't get delivered as fast as not shipped by Amazon.

The white bars and the ratio number display should be the indicator so that the ratio is properly maintained. The problem here is that the program never knows where exactly the screen is. Whether there is more space on the left, right, top or bottom. The Wii simply cannot see this. Therefore, only the imbalance can be shown by the currently white lines.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=164992.0;attach=392263;image

It is also very difficult to calculate that the other way around, as multistep. If there would be a new screen where the program tries to calculate this the other way around, then the program does not know which ratio the screen has, if it would assume that the user has put the LEDs directly to the screen.


Also:

It is possible to have correct aiming also at the edges. Simply start to test at the left and increase/decrease the left offset in small steps and test inbetween. Continue with right offset. I will try to make a video about it in the near future.

https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/

Also:

I heard for normal size screens 980nm IR LEDs works also fine!

Also:

Yes please beware reflections from walls or other objects :) a rim around the LED could help or only on one side.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 02:01:40 pm by Fusselkroete »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
When I add LEDs to my cab, I think I can work out steps for using the current calibration screen that is easier to explain and gets better results than my quick taped on test.
It might be a while before I get to it though.  I have some other things that need done first and I want to design and 3D print some brackets for the LEDs.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Fusselkroete, thank you for providing more information.   :cheers:

Has there been much interest in Lichtknarre?  My reaction was "Why haven't I heard of this before?"
It works great!

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Fusselkroete, thank you for providing more information.   :cheers:

Has there been much interest in Lichtknarre?  My reaction was "Why haven't I heard of this before?"
It works great!

 :)  :cheers:

not sure how many ppl use this tool regular. no tracking.

Downloads seems to be not that bad for this kind of geeky tool :D
https://geekonarium.de/en/download-changelog-lightgun-lichtknarre-wiimote-line-of-sight-pc-windows/

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
The white bars and the ratio number display should be the indicator so that the ratio is properly maintained. The problem here is that the program never knows where exactly the screen is. Whether there is more space on the left, right, top or bottom. The Wii simply cannot see this. Therefore, only the imbalance can be shown by the currently white lines.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=164992.0;attach=392263;image

It is also very difficult to calculate that the other way around, as multistep. If there would be a new screen where the program tries to calculate this the other way around, then the program does not know which ratio the screen has, if it would assume that the user has put the LEDs directly to the screen.

I understand what you are saying, and it has occurred to me that one more piece of information by the user would be required.  I'll regret this (because I'll probably be wrong), but I'll try to better explain how I think this can be accomplished.

If the user supplies the distance between each of the top and bottom LEDs to their respective edge of the active screen, and then also supplies the distance between the top and bottom LEDs, it would actually allow the LEDs to be mapped in relation to the screen as percentages of deviation.  Those percentages could then be applied to the vertical resolution of the calibration screen which shows where to place the side LEDs, creating a "virtual screen" upon which the correct placement ratio and line position can be calculated.  This virtual screen is then laid over the physical screen using the LED-to-edge deviation percentages to find the offset.

The following is an example using arbitrary units:

Edit: Original Example removed.  It was simpler than I thought.

Top LED Distance = 1
Bottom LED Distance = 2
Distance Between LEDS = 24

From this information, we know that the screen is 21 arbitrary units tall.  Therefore, for a 1080p image, the number of screen pixels per unit is 1080/21=51.42857142857143

We also know that there are 3 additional pixel units we need to add to account for the LED spacing, so our virtual vertical screen size becomes 1080+(51.42857142857143 * 3)=1234.285714285714 pixels

From there, we can find the pixel row at 74% with 1234.285714285714 * .74=913.3714285714286th row of pixels on the virtual screen.

And finally, to equate that to a row on the physical screen, we offset the starting point by the Top LED Distance * Pixels Per Unit, or in this case 51.42857142857143, so the line would be drawn at row 913.3714285714286-51.42857142857143=861.9428571428571 or 862 rounded up.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 08:46:15 pm by RandyT »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
The white bars and the ratio number display should be the indicator so that the ratio is properly maintained. The problem here is that the program never knows where exactly the screen is. Whether there is more space on the left, right, top or bottom. The Wii simply cannot see this. Therefore, only the imbalance can be shown by the currently white lines.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=164992.0;attach=392263;image

It is also very difficult to calculate that the other way around, as multistep. If there would be a new screen where the program tries to calculate this the other way around, then the program does not know which ratio the screen has, if it would assume that the user has put the LEDs directly to the screen.

I understand what you are saying, and it has occurred to me that one more piece of information by the user would be required.  I'll regret this (because I'll probably be wrong), but I'll try to better explain how I think this can be accomplished.

If the user supplies the distance between each of the top and bottom LEDs to their respective edge of the active screen, and then also supplies the distance between the top and bottom LEDs, it would actually allow the LEDs to be mapped in relation to the screen as percentages of deviation.  Those percentages could then be applied to the vertical resolution of the calibration screen which shows where to place the side LEDs, creating a "virtual screen" upon which the correct placement ratio and line position can be calculated.  This virtual screen is then laid over the physical screen using the LED-to-edge deviation percentages to find the offset.

The following is an example using arbitrary units:

--------------------
Top LED Distance= 1
Bottom LED Distance= 2
Distance Between LEDs = 24

From this information, we now know that the active screen height is 21 and the upper deviation is 1/24 or 4.1% and the lower deviation is 1/12 or 8.3% of the total distance. 

So if we are using a 1080p resolution screen to show side LED placement, we use the figures above to create a virtual screen which is 4.1% larger at the top and 8.3% larger at the bottom. 

The vertical height of our virtual screen is 1080+((1080*.041)+(1080*.083))=1213.92 pixels

Therefore, the indicator line for the LEDs would be placed at the 1213.92*.74=898.30th row of pixels on our virtual screen.

Then all we need to do is draw the line for LED placement on our physical screen at the 898.30-(1080*.041)=854.02th row of pixels. 
-------------------

Please double check my results.  Even if it's correct, there are probably some shortcuts to get to the same result.  I just wanted to step through it to show the process for getting there.  Obviously, the measurements supplied by the user would need to be accurate for it to be perfect, but if they are close, it could aid in providing a starting point.

The problem with that theory is that you can't work with physical and virtual units. pixels has no reference to real life. A virtual screen with 1024x768 for example could be 4:3 or 16:9. the resolution does not care. But theoretical a screen with all exact physical messured values (width/height of the screen + offsets left/right/top/bottom) could be implemented, but i think it's too much for the user. (the missed point look update)

Whats the problem with the actual screen? Get the ratios right it says :D More exact you do it better it the aiming is :D Try to satisfy the values as best as you can!

Atm user only struggles with IR-Offset.
The offset wizard aims to solve this problems. But it's hard to aim perfect and maybe there is still a little bug in that wizard. Need to think about it to improve it.

The offset wizard knows that the dot which the user is aiming for left offset is for example 25% of the screen. So when you aim the dot and shoot in that moment the app knows where the left IR and the right IR is. assumed that this was 100% and can now see how much percent it has as offset for the left side. I think here a bug could be that it doesn't know the middle point of the screen if i remember right. so if left has different distance to right. will check on that.

Also thinking about to use the mouse as a helper in the offset wizard soon. Because the mouse is the end goal. Than the user can press some buttons on the wii and iterate through the offsets in small steps in this wizard. Maybe that will improve it. To get the offset right is more a problem of the interface atm i think, to make it practical.

Will see how to improve.

Thanks for you'r feedback and the feedback of the others! This forum realy helps to see what users struggles hard with :)

Update:

Sorry i missed the point that you want the user to provide all as distances ir-offsets/ir-width(distance from left IR to right IR)/ir-heights(distance from top-IR to bottom-IR) for example in mm. Was too early in the morning :). ok maybe that will work, but i think an intuitive calibration process without letting the user measure stuff is much better? Aiming and showing whats wrong is much better imop. Will think about the advantages/disadvantages between these methods. Maybe this could be become part of offset wizard or something or an extra ir offset calculator. Thanks 4 feedback again.

Your other point was to have this as initial calibration step. As more do i think about this it could work. But i still think to let the user satisfy values on the fly is much more easy for the user. Because these are real values which comes from the wii remote and not from the ruler. Some ppl make mistakes when doing measurements and are confused the other way around :D. Sounds like both ways have advantages/disadvantages.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 10:15:13 am by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com

Update:

Sorry i missed the point that you want the user to provide all as distances ir-offsets/ir-width(distance from left IR to right IR)/ir-heights(distance from top-IR to bottom-IR) for example in mm. Was too early in the morning :). ok maybe that will work, but i think an intuitive calibration process without letting the user measure stuff is much better? Aiming and showing whats wrong is much better imop. Will think about the advantages/disadvantages between these methods. Maybe this could be become part of offset wizard or something or an extra ir offset calculator. Thanks 4 feedback again.

Your other point was to have this as initial calibration step. As more do i think about this it could work. But i still think to let the user satisfy values on the fly is much more easy for the user. Because these are real values which comes from the wii remote and not from the ruler. Some ppl make mistakes when doing measurements and are confused the other way around :D. Sounds like both ways have advantages/disadvantages.

No problem.  I get "false starts" when I think I understand something all of the time (see earlier) :)

The user is going to need to measure stuff for that initial LED placement regardless.  As the center LED is not in-line with the sides, it's currently very difficult to start out close to the having the side LEDs at the correct locations.  To do this well, the user would need a ruler, something to draw lines on the TV frame, make multiple measurements and reference marks, etc.

My belief is that actual references provided on-screen, like the one you have showing the optimal placements at the screen border intersections, will always be the easiest for the user to follow and negate the need for the extra stuff.  If it works out, it should also be more accurate.

I'm not advocating removal of any fine-tuning screens.  This is just a way to get close right from the start without needing 3 hands and a calculator to get there :).

Edit:  The user shouldn't need to provide measurements for everything.  Just the 3 measurements I noted.  Unless the active screen is not centered, the user should be able to "eyeball" the left to right dimensions of the side LEDs and place them close to where appropriate, so long as there is a line on the screen to follow for the vertical placement.  Also, the actual unit of measure is arbitrary.  It can be mm, inches, soup spoons, etc...  so long as the same unit of measure is used.  It is just used for finding the percentage of deviation with whatever the unit is that is currently being used.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 11:03:37 am by RandyT »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Here an idea how your calibration process could look like:

Step1: User places top LED 50/50 horizontal. An arrow is shown on the screen for the 50/50 top edge.
Step2: User places bottom LED 50/50 horizontal. An arrow is shown on the screen for the 50/50 bottom edge.
Step3: let the user enter top/bottom offsets and distance between the 2 LEDs.

Step4: programm calculates with the offset the screen top position for the left and right IRs. Because it knows the offsets and heights of the screen. it now can calc the percentage for the screen and apply it on the resolution.
Step5: Let the user place Left/Right Leds according to the edge positions which was calculated in step4.
Step6: let user enter Left/right offsets.

Hmmm but to be honest i bet this still do not work. See all the stuff directly over the wii camera is the best because it translate directly to the calculation. Thats why i prefer a more try and error process over the wii cam. Like it is now. Satisfy the values by moving the leds. After this is done adjust the mouse by trying out more and less offset. The offset wizard could be improved alot to this workflow.

Lets call my process the wii camera calibration process and the other one the manual calibration process:

I bet if you only one mm with one thing off with the manual calibration process than it doesn't work.

Also you do not need marks for moving the leds with camera. Maybe glue strips or something. I use magnets to have it a little bit variable.

I should do a tutorial video how to calibrate and show it in front of the calibration process :D Will see maybe i can find a hybrid of both worlds.

To summarize:
- Manual process needs a ruler
- Wii cam process needs to replace the LEDs.

There must be a process from both worlds to eliminate both disadvantages :D

Step1: Like let the wii see the leds the whole time.
Step2: User places top LED 50/50 horizontal. An arrow is shown on the screen for the 50/50 top edge.
Step3: User places bottom LED 50/50 horizontal. An arrow is shown on the screen for the 50/50 bottom edge.
Step4: Let the user shoot two dots on the screen to find the offsets. One 10% top of the screen and one 10% bottom of the screen 50/50 horizontal.

Step5: programm calculates with the offset the screen top position for the left and right IRs. Because it knows the offsets and heights of the screen. it now can calc the percentage for the screen and apply it on the resolution.
Step6: Let the user place Left/Right Leds according to the edge positions which was calculated in step4.
Step7: Let the user shoot another two dots on the screen for left and right offset.

But shooting dots works that well as the actual IR offset wizard works haha. And now its a long process where the user is more irretated. Not so sure.

Even though we are now theoretically thinking about a better calibration process, which is also super nice and helps me a lot, but I will perfect the wii camera try and error process. A better interface for the offset wizard and a tutorial video what is shown before calibrating to make it more practical. sticky tape, how try and error with IR offsets and what it all means. :D

Also this is all one time calibration.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 12:31:50 pm by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Here an idea how your calibration process could look like:

Programatically, yes, for the most part.

I see it like this from a user perspective:

Step1: Vertical center line shown to user for top and bottom placement.  User instructed to place LEDs in-line and as close to screen edge as is practical.

Step2: User is prompted to enter top/bottom offsets and distance between the 2 LEDs, with emphasis on accuracy.  The more accurate the better.  No rounding.

Step3: Program calculates the correct vertical offset for the left and right IR LEDs and places a horizontal line on-screen at that location.  User instructed to place LEDs in-line and as close to screen edge as is practical, keeping the same distance between the LED and the active screen edge on both sides.

From that point on, it should just be fine-tuning by whatever means is most practical.  I haven't gone far enough in the setup process to see exactly what that entails.  But if you already have the ability for the user to enter offsets for the LEDs, and the Wii remote camera has the ability to see them, I can envision using the information from the setup process to place a representation of the physical LED pattern on the screen and then instructing the user to position themselves and the "camera" to try to align the blobs seen by the camera as close as possible with the ones on the screen and pulling the trigger.  At that point, the software could automatically calculate the offsets between each.  If anything still needed tweaking, you would still have the ability to do so.

Maybe that last part wouldn't work for how you are doing things, but it's something I would personally try as an experiment.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
But many ppl had no problem and managed to master the calibration process and have perfect aiming. Its only one time calibration so all is good ;)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 02:21:49 pm by Fusselkroete »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Randy, maybe reserve judgement until you've actually set is up and used the calibration.  It could be that I just didn't wrap my head around it completely and made it out to be harder than it is.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Randy, maybe reserve judgement until you've actually set is up and used the calibration.  It could be that I just didn't wrap my head around it completely and made it out to be harder than it is.

Yeah, I'm a "fixer" by nature and it looked like there were some aspects you encountered which might have benefitted from some input.  But in the end, it's a process which only need be done once.  So as long as the system works well, which it appears to, that's all that's really important.

Just so my comments are not misunderstood, Fusselkroete's work on this is greatly appreciated.  I think it will make good lightgun gaming far more accessible to gamers than possibly anything has in the last decade or so.  IMHO, it deserves more attention than it appears to have received so far.  Hopefully that situation changes as more start using it and the "word-of-mouth" kicks in, which will hopefully encourage him to take the software further.

As a side note, my Nyko "Perfect Shot" gun shells showed up today.  They feel great in the hand, are not bulky at the forward part and the trigger action is excellent.  They even have a port pass-through extension which brings it down below the grip.  I have another style on order as well, but the Nyko's will be tough to beat.  My only complaint with them is the lack of a bead on the clip in front, which you really can't fault them for.  The Wii never really had good line-of-sight aiming, so it wasn't really necessary.  I think a small, well-placed divot, a BB and a drop of superglue will take care of that nicely.  Now just waiting on the LED modules :)   

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I couldn't help myself.  Based on my earlier ramblings, I made this small app for myself to try when the time comes.  It might work, or I might have just wasted my time.   :laugh2:

BadMouth, if you feel like it, go ahead and check this little program out and see if the result points to where your LEDs are stationed.  If not, then we'll know it's useless and I'll delete it.  Otherwise, it may help a bit when it comes time to move your LEDs to your cabinet.  It's resolution agnostic, but should at least be used at the native aspect ratio of the display.  Also, at low resolution some of the screen elements might trample each other.  Outside of that, it's been tested and based on the test measurements, it looks like it does what it should.

*edit* Software used some bad math.  Will update in a later post.  :-[
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 07:28:19 pm by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Installed LEDs on the cab today.  I had all kinds of ideas in my head for holders, brackets, heat sinks etc.  Due to time and space constraints I ended up using black duct tape.  :o
I wanted all of the LEDs at the edge of the screen to get the tightest grouping possible, allowing the guns to work at the shortest distance possible.

So here is what I did this round....
> Placed top and bottom LEDs on the edge of the screen centered by measurement.  This corresponded with the vertical line in "2. default LED calibration"
> Placed left and right LEDs on the ege of the screen based "3. default gun calibration" making sure that they were both the same distance from the bottom of the screen and the line between them was straight.  This resulted in them being a bit below the horizontal line in "2. default LED calibration". 

This is why the top LED ended up high on my previous try.  It had to be raised to get the right ratio.  This time the side LEDs were moved down to get the correct ratio.  This way is more correct because it keeps all the LEDs on the edge of (or same distance from) the screen.



Fusselkroete,
For "3. default gun calibration", I need to hold the gun right of center or turn it to get the circles in the boxes and lines straight.  Both guns are the same way.


Is it better to keep the gun perpendicular to the screen and shift it to the right, or is it better to keep the gun centered with the screen and turn it?  Either way the mouse pointer ends up shifted left of where the gun is pointing.  I was able to get it close with the following offsets:


Am I using the offsets correctly or is there something else incorrect before applying the offsets?
I could shift the top and bottom LEDs, but that seems way incorrect because then they wouldn't be centered.

EDIT: Typed this before/during Randy's post.....




« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 05:04:49 pm by BadMouth »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Installed LEDs on the cab today.  I had all kinds of ideas in my head for holders, brackets, heat sinks etc.  Due to time and space constraints I ended up using black duct tape.  :o
I wanted all of the LEDs at the edge of the screen to get the tightest grouping possible, allowing the guns to work at the shortest distance possible.

...

@BadMouth
Try following: Put all offsets to zero again. Test aiming left side with mouse plugin. Increase/Decrese offset by 1 and aim the screen and test if it becomes better.  If you think you overshooted make smaller steps. Test till you satisfied. Than do the same with the right side. After your done try again on left and right. Use the same procedure for top/bottm. Your setup Looks like it has zero IR-Offset, from what i can see on the images. I dont see bottom IR.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 05:49:22 pm by Fusselkroete »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I couldn't help myself.  Based on my earlier ramblings, I made this small app for myself to try when the time comes.  It might work, or I might have just wasted my time.   :laugh2:

BadMouth, if you feel like it, go ahead and check this little program out and see if the result points to where your LEDs are stationed.  If not, then we'll know it's useless and I'll delete it.  Otherwise, it may help a bit when it comes time to move your LEDs to your cabinet.  It's resolution agnostic, but should at least be used at the native aspect ratio of the display.  Also, at low resolution some of the screen elements might trample each other.  Outside of that, it's been tested and based on the test measurements, it looks like it does what it should.

If anyone else wants to run it, feel free.  But it's not too exciting :)

Randy,
Since the LEDs were already in place I used your program to see if the line would end up where my LEDs are.
It ended up above my LEDs by the amount of the top offset.
Top offset: 11mm, bottom offset: 11mm, distance between LED centers: 346mm

Not sure if it's an error in the program, but I can't move my LEDs very easily at the moment.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
I couldn't help myself.  Based on my earlier ramblings, I made this small app for myself to try when the time comes.  It might work, or I might have just wasted my time.   :laugh2:

BadMouth, if you feel like it, go ahead and check this little program out and see if the result points to where your LEDs are stationed.  If not, then we'll know it's useless and I'll delete it.  Otherwise, it may help a bit when it comes time to move your LEDs to your cabinet.  It's resolution agnostic, but should at least be used at the native aspect ratio of the display.  Also, at low resolution some of the screen elements might trample each other.  Outside of that, it's been tested and based on the test measurements, it looks like it does what it should.

If anyone else wants to run it, feel free.  But it's not too exciting :)

Randy,
Since the LEDs were already in place I used your program to see if the line would end up where my LEDs are.
It ended up above my LEDs by the amount of the top offset.
Top offset: 11mm, bottom offset: 11mm, distance between LED centers: 346mm

Not sure if it's an error in the program, but I can't move my LEDs very easily at the moment.

Look example calculation. From cm to %.
https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/#example1

But i have better results with try and error procedure.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 05:36:06 pm by Fusselkroete »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
LEDs are as close as I could get them to the screen without covering any of it.  That's why I was questioning the fairly high offsets. 

I redid again and ended up with -7 & +9 for left and right and -4 & +5 for top and bottom.  It is working good with those settings.
I just wanted to make sure that the need for the larger offsets wasn't caused by mistakes in the previous steps.

Either way, the gun tracks well after the offsets are applied.  :cheers:


Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
LEDs are as close as I could get them to the screen without covering any of it.  That's why I was questioning the fairly high offsets. 

I redid again and ended up with -7 & +9 for left and right and -4 & +5 for top and bottom.  It is working good with those settings.
I just wanted to make sure that the need for the larger offsets wasn't caused by mistakes in the previous steps.

Either way, the gun tracks well after the offsets are applied.  :cheers:

Looks little bit strange these offsets :D But glad it works for you now. yeah this step is a bit fiddly but its one time setup ^^
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 05:54:23 pm by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Not sure if it's an error in the program, but I can't move my LEDs very easily at the moment.

I'll look at my code to see if I did something dumb.  It should be ok, as the software came up with the same answers as the manual example I went through earlier.  But if that's not correct, it could be a case of "right answer to the wrong question" :)



BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Randy, just noticed my side LEDs are off by about the same amount in your program as the line in "2. default LED calibration" in Lichtknarre.

I used the  "3. default gun calibration" dynamic calibration screen to set the height of my LEDs.  Using the lines in "2. default LED calibration" resulted in the ratio being off and then having to move the top LED up, which I didn't want to do.
 
I don't want to jump to conclusions.  I'll wait to see what you experience when you set up and test.

Plenty of people may have used the program, but how many of them are old codgers who grew up with accurate CRT light guns.  :D  :oldman

At any rate, it works perfectly with the offsets applied.


RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Thanks for bearing with me.  My calculations were bad and I used it for the software without verifying.  Where's the self flagellation emogi?   :angry:

@BadMouth (and whoever else might be following along), please delete that first version and try this one. I think (hope) this is a keeper.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Thanks for bearing with me.  My calculations were bad and I used it for the software without verifying.  Where's the self flagellation emogi?   :angry:

@BadMouth (and whoever else might be following along), please delete that first version and try this one. I think (hope) this is a keeper.
Still a tad above, but since I have the oddness of larger offsets than expected, I wouldn't bother trying to revise it until you set your own up.  Might be something weird on my end. 

I still have to wire the power supply into the cab and transfer my gun gamelist from my old setup.  But as far as test screens and windows mouse control go, the guns are working as expected.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Still a tad above, but since I have the oddness of larger offsets than expected, I wouldn't bother trying to revise it until you set your own up.  Might be something weird on my end. 

Thanks for checking it out.  I'm pretty sure it's good this time.  You can check my updated post for how it's being calculated.

According to the measurements you gave, the blue line should be 272.32mm below the center of your top LED.  Is it pretty close to that?  If so, then the LED positions may be what's accounting for the offset values Fusselkroete thought were a little strange.  Either that, or that particular camera type in the gun may be seeing things a bit differently than the typical Wii remote.  If there is possibly intentional distortion in the lens, or some other optical difference, the optimal positioning may be slightly different.

But I'm happy to hear that you were able to get your guns working!  I ordered a 6.5v supply, so I'm going to attempt a constant voltage approach to the LEDs.  If I have to, I'll add a small resistor, but that's pretty well below what 4 of those LEDs in series can handle (~8v) so as long as the supply doesn't get overtaxed, things should run without damage.  I guess I'll be the guinea pig for that one.  For safety reasons, there should probably be a .5a fuse in-line, but I'll add that later if things work well.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Still a tad above, but since I have the oddness of larger offsets than expected, I wouldn't bother trying to revise it until you set your own up.  Might be something weird on my end. 

Thanks for checking it out.  I'm pretty sure it's good this time.  You can check my updated post for how it's being calculated.

According to the measurements you gave, the blue line should be 272.32mm below the center of your top LED.  Is it pretty close to that?  If so, then the LED positions may be what's accounting for the offset values Fusselkroete thought were a little strange.  Either that, or that particular camera type in the gun may be seeing things a bit differently than the typical Wii remote.  If there is possibly intentional distortion in the lens, or some other optical difference, the optimal positioning may be slightly different.

But I'm happy to hear that you were able to get your guns working!  I ordered a 6.5v supply, so I'm going to attempt a constant voltage approach to the LEDs.  If I have to, I'll add a small resistor, but that's pretty well below what 4 of those LEDs in series can handle (~8v) so as long as the supply doesn't get overtaxed, things should run without damage.  I guess I'll be the guinea pig for that one.  For safety reasons, there should probably be a .5a fuse in-line, but I'll add that later if things work well.

Yep the lens distortion could be a part of this calculation xD. In 4 LED Tracker i ignore the distortion but when you align LEDs over the wii camera, than for sure the lens distortion is a factor when aligning the LEDs.
Will also integrate maybe this kind of calculator/calibration-tool to the 4 LED tracker-plugin.

Lens distortion is also part of the 2 LED Tracker.
 
I hope that i soon find the time to release a guncase with lensholder:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ty1HJIT5EhbennsuP9QQvOKh2KsIYql9/view?usp=sharing

Than will speak more about lensfactor :D
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 11:43:54 am by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I finally got some of these LEDs in today and soldered up 4 of them in series.  My 6.5v supplies haven't arrived yet, but for testing purposes, I just used my bench lab supply set to 6.5v.

You can do all the calculations you want with these things, but at the end of the day, what they draw is what they draw.  According to my supply, 4 in series with no resistor @ 6.5v gets them to about 600ma draw.  If I put them onto some good sized heat sinks, I think that would be fine, but without heatsinks, they get "burn your fingers" hot.  I also don't think the output is considerably better at 600ma, as opposed to about 400-450ma (which is pretty much what the graphs indicate.)  But even at that level of current, they are still pretty hot.  However, this isn't yet a fair test, as they are in series "lug-to-lug" so there's no wire in-between to help sink the heat away.  I fully expect them to run a bit cooler with a decently large gauge wire between.  I'm thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of ~18 gauge at minimum.

So I think I have settled upon using a 6.5v supply and single 1/4w .1 ohm resistor, which seems to make them stable at a 410ma current.  The resistor doesn't even get warm, so I know efficiency is pretty darned good.  I may need put some small heat sinks on the LEDs, but I'm hoping I won't need to.

I also did some testing with the cell phone camera.  Turned off all of the lights and the LEDs were nice, bright white and well defined dots.  However, I removed the filter from both an original and a knock-off Wii remote and placed them in front of the cell camera.  Both filters knocked the brightness of the LEDs right into the proverbial dirt, but the filter from the knock-off was worse.  When I looked at a bright light through both of them, it was clear as to why.  The original filter had a slightly purple shade, while the knock-off was more cyan.  If you want to let a good chunk of the longer red wavelengths through, cyan is about the worst color one could use.



This image from the subtractive color wiki shows pretty well the effect that filters have on color. So while you don't want to let in so much red as to see the red power LED from your TV (you covered that anyway, right?) , you do want to let SOME of it through.  Therefore, the slightly purple filter is definitely better. 

All of that stated, not all filters are created equal.  I also tested a filter from a different light gun system which seemed to work considerably better, at least with the cell camera.  So I guess the take-away is that if the image of the dots is weak, it may not be the LEDs, rather the filter in front of the camera!  FWIW, I have some material on the way for testing which supposedly does very well in the wavelengths we are interested in, reaching close to 90% while blocking everything below the mid 700's.  If I find that it works better, I'll probably make some pre-cut filters available in different shapes and sizes.

Just thought people might find some of this interesting, as it's applicable no matter what type of IR system is being used. :)

Edit:  I just put ~10" of 14 gauge wire between each of the LEDs.  This lowered the temperatures enough to also lower the total current consumption.  It looks like I can do this without heatsinks and still get ~400ma with this size wire.  If I ditch the resistor I see 570ma and module temps around 160f, which would probably still be fine so long as the back of the module was exposed to open air.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 08:48:33 am by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
My guns seem to have no problem seeing them through a tinted bezel at 300ma, but that's from 40 inches away.

Even under the smoked acrylic, my black duct tape job looks like crap.  I'm also worried about heat since I have them flat against the monitor.
So I decided to redo them. When I originally built the cab, I put the acrylic as close to the monitor as possible.  Regretting that now.
Originally the plan was to mount the LEDs on the sides of the monitor, but putting them next to the screen results in a play distance short enough to never be an issue.

The next iteration is some strips of thin (maybe 1/16") aluminum cut from a shop air filter frame with the LED and a small heatsink thermal glued to it.
I'll bend the strips to fit around the sides of the monitor, paint and attach to the sides with vhb tape.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 10:17:09 am by BadMouth »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
tbh i think normal 980nm IR lights which are in the wii sensor bar could also work fine enough for normal size monitors/tvs. The video i made was only my way i did it. :D
Some ppl told me that 980nm works fine. I used high power LEDs because i use this tool in beamer/projector from far distance. But i didn't validated this.

Your choice xD
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 11:37:12 am by Fusselkroete »

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Last login:Today at 04:40:51 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
just my 2 cents regarding the peculiarities of aming/aligning/seeing the appropriate LED's...

your "viewing angle" is really bad...

the led shape has a drastic effect on how much of an angle you are going to be able to see them at. typical "normal" shaped LED's have about a 10 or 20 degree viewing angle.  a shape commonly named "straw hat" LED's have about 90 ish degrees of emission... where a flat topped and even inverse cone shaped LED lenses have a viewing angle gaining on 160 to even 180 degrees or more.

the original wii sensor bars used 5 "regular" LED's on each side ... but arranged in an arc to improve the angle in which the IR "dots" can be seen.

when going with a single source IR emission like this, you should probably look into "straw hat" or flat top LED's to improve the angles in which the sources can be seen by a camera.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
tbh i think normal 980nm IR lights which are in the wii sensor bar could also work fine enough for normal size monitors/tvs. The video i made was only my way i did it. :D
Some ppl told me that 980nm works fine. I used high power LEDs because i use this tool in beamer/projector from far distance. But i didn't validated this.

Your choice xD

You are on a site where people take games which can be played on a cell phone and put them into huge, furniture-sized boxes.  If something can be done to excessive levels, we'll usually take that route. 

Seriously though, the wii lightbar is more powerful than a lot of people probably think it is.  There are a total of 10 LEDs in that thing (4 of which aid in angles of incidence) just to give it two blobs to work with.  There's also no such thing as a perfect filter, so if there's a 15% loss from the one in front of the LEDs and an additional %15 from the one on the controller, there's a 30% reduction of the available IR right off the top.  Then, if you run everything at the longer wavelengths, the camera becomes less sensitive by about half (based on the IR sensitivities of most silicon-based sensors). So, my current belief is that, if people are willing to deal with the dim red dots, performance and range can be enhanced by a decent margin with your kind of setup.

But yeah, unless one has issues while playing, it's probably not necessary to go too crazy for a simple setup where the LEDs are exposed and the screen isn't huge. :)

just my 2 cents regarding the peculiarities of aming/aligning/seeing the appropriate LED's...

your "viewing angle" is really bad...
...
when going with a single source IR emission like this, you should probably look into "straw hat" or flat top LED's to improve the angles in which the sources can be seen by a camera.

I mostly agree.  However, the particular LEDs we've been tinkering with have a stated viewing angle of 140degrees, so at any usable distance from them, they should be good-to-go for this type of application.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 01:03:59 pm by RandyT »

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Last login:Today at 04:40:51 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
I mostly agree.  However, the particular LEDs we've been tinkering with have a stated viewing angle of 140degrees, so at any usable distance from them, they should be good-to-go for this type of application.

yeah 140 degrees... but you can see in the first pic you posted that the top one's emission has become barely "visible". so they probably have in the datasheet that it's 80% in the first 20 degrees of angle... but could be down to 1% by the time you hit 140 degrees. manufacturers are weird like that.

this should be easily doable with four 5mm LED's running at 30ma.... with 3 watt LEDs... your camera should be literally BLINDED by them.

just spitballing here... i wonder if you placed a small square of frosted plexi (about the size of a square of shredded wheat) in front of the LED... if it's detection would be better.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
yeah 140 degrees... but you can see in the first pic you posted that the top one's emission has become barely "visible". so they probably have in the datasheet that it's 80% in the first 20 degrees of angle... but could be down to 1% by the time you hit 140 degrees. manufacturers are weird like that.

this should be easily doable with four 5mm LED's running at 30ma.... with 3 watt LEDs... your camera should be literally BLINDED by them.

just spitballing here... i wonder if you placed a small square of frosted plexi (about the size of a square of shredded wheat) in front of the LED... if it's detection would be better.

If the manufacturer's graph is to be believed, these should be giving 35% at 140 degrees, which isn't bad.  A couple other data points are 50% at 120, 75% at 90 and it goes up from there.  I also don't know where the 3watts comes from, unless that is the maximum they hit before they catch fire.  I've always thought P=VI, which in this case comes out to 1.26w = 1.8v x 700ma, and the goal is not to run them that hot, both to maximize longevity and minimize the need for cooling.  I think the sweet spot is where you start to see diminishing returns.

I just tried some good diffusing material (not saying it's best for this) and wasn't able to achieve anything at any angle which didn't just make a softer, but dimmer spot.  Even at very acute angles, my cell camera with a good IR filter on it picks up the naked LED very well.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 05:05:07 pm by RandyT »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Finally got this set up on a 50" plasma for testing.  Being wireless and sight accurate is great.  After setting up the LEDs with my dumb little program, and with no IR offsets (all left at 0), the cursor sits right in the sights of the gun, pretty much anywhere on the screen.  I'd say it was at least as good as a traditional lightgun for accuracy.  But I am seeing an issue.

Everything which follows was done watching the mouse cursor at the desktop, so no game calibration or influence is at play.

I'm seeing an oddity, possibly related to the angle compensation code.  If I pan the screen quickly and repeatedly to the left and right , I see the blob pattern in the preview window tilting clockwise when moving left and counter-clockwise when moving to the right, even though I am being very careful not to tilt the gun.  This incorrectly perceived tilt by the software seems to trigger the tilt compensation, which then gets confused and seems to place the cursor randomly on the screen as the motion continues and the software seems to become more confused.

The interesting thing is that this does not occur when doing the same thing slowly.  As long as I don't exceed a certain, somewhat slow speed, the pattern stays dead straight and the cursor stays where it should.  I do not expect that this is linked to Bluetooth or system speed issues, as I can crank up the inputs per second cutoff to 120, which makes the cursor move extremely smoothly, but with no change in this odd behavior.  I should also note that distance does not seem to make a difference.

Fusselkroete, is it possible to add an option to disable the tilt compensation code entirely?  While this may not be the root cause of the issue, it seems like the lower speed at which it operates causes error to compound, leading to the cursor ending up momentarily in places it shouldn't.

I'm also seeing an occasional, but also rare, minor offsetting of the cursor.  Usually, just going off the edge of the screen and coming back will correct it, or it will sometimes just manage to fix itself.  No idea as to what might be causing this one.  It almost feels as if the cursor ends up "stuck" in a small offset and then eventually frees itself.

And as long as I'm asking for stuff, I'd also like to see a troubleshooting feature added.  Namely, a basic, full-screen preview.  It would be handy for larger screens to be able to double-click the preview window to bring it to full-screen so it's easier to see what is happening at longer distances from the screen.  The code seems already to be present for this, so I wouldn't expect that it would be too difficult to add and it would be a nice feature.

One final oddity I found.  In the 3. Default Gun calibration mode, I was only able to shoot one of the blue squares.  It would progress to the next screen, but it would no longer register a button press to proceed.  If I used the mouse to exit the mode, the trigger would again function normally.  This seems like a bug, unless I am doing something wrong here.  I did as the screen stated, having only two of the proper color dots on the screen, but could not get past the screen no matter what I did.  The 2. default LED-calibration was no problem at all.

Edit:  Whoops, forgot one.  I also noticed that through some currently unknown combination of events, the blue dots in the preview window disappear, and only re-appear when less than 4 are present.  Whenever there should be 4 dots displayed, it shows only the numbers and no dots.  A re-boot of the software will fix this temporarily, so it appears to be a bug of some sort.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 12:32:31 pm by RandyT »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
I'm seeing an oddity, possibly related to the angle compensation code.  If I pan the screen quickly and repeatedly to the left and right , I see the blob pattern in the preview window tilting clockwise when moving left and counter-clockwise when moving to the right, even though I am being very careful not to tilt the gun.  This incorrectly perceived tilt by the software seems to trigger the tilt compensation, which then gets confused and seems to place the cursor randomly on the screen as the motion continues and the software seems to become more confused.

The interesting thing is that this does not occur when doing the same thing slowly.  As long as I don't exceed a certain, somewhat slow speed, the pattern stays dead straight and the cursor stays where it should.  I do not expect that this is linked to Bluetooth or system speed issues, as I can crank up the inputs per second cutoff to 120, which makes the cursor move extremely smoothly, but with no change in this odd behavior.  I should also note that distance does not seem to make a difference.

Fusselkroete, is it possible to add an option to disable the tilt compensation code entirely?  While this may not be the root cause of the issue, it seems like the lower speed at which it operates causes error to compound, leading to the cursor ending up momentarily in places it shouldn't.

Yes it has an adjust time for 0.6-1s when tilting for the 4 LED Tracker-Plugin. No one realy had a problem with it and it was documented on the instructable website.
https://www.instructables.com/Wii-Remote-As-Lightgun-With-Iron-Sight-Accuracy/ << Look Features :D

The inputs per seconds has nothing todo with the position recognition code at all. Inputs per second cutoff is only the option how much the connector plugin sends data in a second to the apis/vjoy or something else.
Look here : https://geekonarium.de/en/lightgun-lichtknarre-about-the-plugin-system/
Its also labeled, that this dialog is a connector plugin configuration for the vjoy or mouse connector plugin.

So you can say it always recognize with the most speed as possible.

I'm also seeing an occasional, but also rare, minor offsetting of the cursor.  Usually, just going off the edge of the screen and coming back will correct it, or it will sometimes just manage to fix itself.  No idea as to what might be causing this one.  It almost feels as if the cursor ends up "stuck" in a small offset and then eventually frees itself.

This sounds like a reflection problem or some sort. :O maybe play around with the IR sensitivity setting.

And as long as I'm asking for stuff, I'd also like to see a troubleshooting feature added.  Namely, a basic, full-screen preview.  It would be handy for larger screens to be able to double-click the preview window to bring it to full-screen so it's easier to see what is happening at longer distances from the screen.  The code seems already to be present for this, so I wouldn't expect that it would be too difficult to add and it would be a nice feature.

There is a troubleshooting guide on the website. read this first please. https://geekonarium.de/en/lichtknarre-lightgun-wii-4-led-tracker-plugin/#troubleshooting

One final oddity I found.  In the 3. Default Gun calibration mode, I was only able to shoot one of the blue squares.  It would progress to the next screen, but it would no longer register a button press to proceed.  If I used the mouse to exit the mode, the trigger would again function normally.  This seems like a bug, unless I am doing something wrong here.  I did as the screen stated, having only two of the proper color dots on the screen, but could not get past the screen no matter what I did.  The 2. default LED-calibration was no problem at all.

Why you want to shoot the blue squares? Do you speak about 4 LED Tracker or 2 LED Tracker? In the calibration mode you should put the IRs cycles in the squares. But i think they are green. And the describtion explains that on the same screen. Maybe thats why your cursor jumps from time to time without tilting or screen reflections.

Edit:  Whoops, forgot one.  I also noticed that through some currently unknown combination of events, the blue dots in the preview window disappear, and only re-appear when less than 4 are present.  Whenever there should be 4 dots displayed, it shows only the numbers and no dots.  A re-boot of the software will fix this temporarily, so it appears to be a bug of some sort.

Hmm can you make a video of this please? When the software has no focus than there should be no update in the preview.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 03:38:14 pm by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
For the record, I've read everything on the website like 10 times :)

So you can say it always recognize with the most speed as possible.

Ok, that's good to know.  I took this to mean the speed in which it was polling the Wii controller over Bluetooth.  In any event, it doesn't seem to be the cause of the issue I am seeing.

Quote
This sounds like a reflection problem or some sort. :O maybe play around with the IR sensitivity setting.

That was my first thought as well.  However, I would expect reflections to manifest themselves as a constant, as they would always be present.  This doesn't behave that way.  Most of the time, the cursor is where it should be.  Only occasionally do I see this offset and it eventually goes away.  IR sensitivity settings do not seem to affect more than the distance at which I can see the blob pattern in the preview with no flickering.  That's why I requested a full-screen mode for the preview window for testing purposes.  It's difficult to see what information the program is acting upon in that small window when you are 3 meters from the screen :).



Quote
There is a troubleshooting guide on the website. read this first please. https://geekonarium.de/en/lichtknarre-lightgun-wii-4-led-tracker-plugin/#troubleshooting

I've read it a few times.  Nothing on there explains tilting of the blob pattern when moving laterally at fast speeds :).  As I stated, if I slow down movements, everything tracks nearly perfectly without the software thinking the gun is tilting.  But past a certain speed of movement, it does it nearly every time.  Even with all 4 LEDs visible and being tracked by the camera.

Quote
Why you want to shoot the blue squares? Do you speak about 4 LED Tracker or 2 LED Tracker? In the calibration mode you should put the IRs cycles in the squares. But i think they are green. And the describtion explains that on the same screen. Maybe thats why your cursor jumps from time to time without tilting or screen reflections.

My apologies for this one.  I confused the modes (it was a late night.)  I should have written:

"One final oddity I found.  In the Default Offset Calibration Wizard, I was only able to shoot one of the blue squares.  It would progress to the next screen, but it would no longer register a button press to proceed.  If I used the mouse to exit the mode, the trigger would again function normally.  This seems like a bug, unless I am doing something wrong here.  I did as the screen stated, having only two of the proper color dots on the screen, but could not get past the screen no matter what I did.  The 3. default gun-calibration was no problem at all."

That doesn't mean I'm not doing something wrong.  Just trying to follow the instructions as written on the screen.  However, in this case, it instructs to shoot the blue dot, and there are "blue dots" moving all over the screen.  :lol   But, there is a small blue square, so I assume it means that one.  If I shoot at that square, it gives me an offset of about -1.6% and then moves the square to the right.  At this point, the program stops accepting button input from the controller and it does this every time, no exceptions.  The only way to proceed at this point is to use the mouse to click on the "close" button, aborting the wizard.

Quote
When the software has no focus than there should be no update in the preview.

It does it regardless of program focus.  Also, I usually have the box checked for showing the preview even when the program does not have focus.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 08:28:58 pm by RandyT »

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Last login:Today at 04:40:51 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
I also don't know where the 3watts comes from, unless that is the maximum they hit before they catch fire.  I've always thought P=VI, which in this case comes out to 1.26w = 1.8v x 700ma,

sorry, i misunderstood... that led is in a package typically used for 3 watt LED's... luminal power output =/= actual power consumption

https://www.pcboard.ca/3-watt-led-bead-infrared
« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 09:11:06 pm by lilshawn »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I also don't know where the 3watts comes from, unless that is the maximum they hit before they catch fire.  I've always thought P=VI, which in this case comes out to 1.26w = 1.8v x 700ma,

sorry, i misunderstood... that led is in a package typically used for 3 watt LED's... luminal power output =/= actual power consumption

https://www.pcboard.ca/3-watt-led-bead-infrared

The manufacturer actually calls these 3 watt LEDs, but does not provide specs for luminous output.  The 3 watts comes from the maximum amount of power the package can dissipate before damage begins to occur.  Regardless, these ratings are hard to decipher.  Even at the link you provided, the same "3-watt" package shows a red LED producing 80-90 lumens (the measure of visible output) while the white version of the same LED puts out 140-150 lumens.  The catch with IR is humans can't see it, and because those ratings are weighted based on the sensitivity of the human eye to those wavelengths , I assume they fall back to the amount of power actually being used to emit photons at those wavelengths (as opposed to heat).  If that's the case, the IR version are only using a little over 1/10th of that 3-watt rating for IR light.  But I'm not an LED pro, so I could be wrong about that last part :)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 10:21:47 pm by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
"One final oddity I found.  In the Default Offset Calibration Wizard, I was only able to shoot one of the blue squares.  It would progress to the next screen, but it would no longer register a button press to proceed.  If I used the mouse to exit the mode, the trigger would again function normally.  This seems like a bug, unless I am doing something wrong here.  I did as the screen stated, having only two of the proper color dots on the screen, but could not get past the screen no matter what I did.  The 3. default gun-calibration was no problem at all."

That doesn't mean I'm not doing something wrong.  Just trying to follow the instructions as written on the screen.  However, in this case, it instructs to shoot the blue dot, and there are "blue dots" moving all over the screen.  :lol   But, there is a small blue square, so I assume it means that one.  If I shoot at that square, it gives me an offset of about -1.6% and then moves the square to the right.  At this point, the program stops accepting button input from the controller and it does this every time, no exceptions.  The only way to proceed at this point is to use the mouse to click on the "close" button, aborting the wizard.


Same here.  I prefer to manually adjust anyway so forgot to mention it.

Fusselkroete, don't let the criticisms cover up how grateful we are for this program.  I bought these guns a decade ago to add to my arcade cabinet.  Finally they are accurate enough to use them.  Thank you.   :notworthy:

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Last login:Today at 04:40:51 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
If that's the case, the IR version are only using a little over 1/10th of that 3-watt rating for IR light.  But I'm not an LED pro, so I could be wrong about that last part :)

thats kind of a problem with all these mixed and reuse of terms.

luminary watt is different, but related to power watt in the case of incandescency (is that a word?).......but is different to the "watt" led's use to describe the output cause they try and equivalent it. and then try and throw in a meter^2 onto that to make it extra confusing.

lumens are lumens except when talking about lumens and power because when they are, it's not because of power its because of the candella because WHY NOT! :banghead:

don't get me started on "foot candelas" cause it's LUX and screw you guys!.

it all boiled down to light bulb manufacturers trying to create the biggest number scheme to advertise their bulbs because "human brain goes 5 big 1 little he he" and OUR bulb only consumes 35 didgeridoos and outputs 99 schmeckles!

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Fusselkroete, don't let the criticisms cover up how grateful we are for this program.  I bought these guns a decade ago to add to my arcade cabinet.  Finally they are accurate enough to use them.  Thank you.   :notworthy:

QFT!  It's again important to emphasize that the software is extremely usable and with many options for dialing in accuracy, which is a huge accomplishment by Fusselkroete, especially given that the software is beta and free! 

The fact that it works so well even at this stage shows just how much potential it has to become the choice for folks wanting to add a relatively inexpensive, accurate and wireless light gun to their arcade setups, regardless of their technical background.  Any criticisms are meant to be 100% constructive.  They are just us "pointing out minor bumps in an otherwise smooth road" to hopefully help Fusselkroete to improve the user experience in future versions. 

Even the biggest issue I have found (which may or may not be specifically related to my setup) is not game-breaking, as the software recovers quickly enough to not be a major issue in actual use, so I would encourage any "fence-sitters" reading this to give it a try.  You won't be disappointed!

If I didn't see something great here, I wouldn't care enough to take the time.  But I do, I have, and will continue to do so until Fusselkroete tells me he's tired of reading my crap :)

luminary watt is different, but related to power watt in the case of incandescency (is that a word?).......but is different to the "watt" led's use to describe the output cause they try and equivalent it. and then try and throw in a meter^2 onto that to make it extra confusing.

That's why they should never have used the term "watt" with any LED (or other light source, for that matter) to describe it's output.  It's, scientifically speaking, an entirely unrelated unit of measure.  One example I saw stated was that a 50-watt LED automobile headlamp bulb had the equivalent output to that of a 500-watt halogen.  Using watts in this way is like saying that your electric space heater is a 1500-watt ni-chrome IR bulb, which is just stupid.  But it all stems from the invention of the tungsten filament light bulb, which put out a specific amount of light depending on the power it consumed.  It was a frame of reference most consumers of the time could relate to, and it simultaneously told them the relative cost to use them.  So, the reference was stored, seemingly permanently, into our collective DNA.  Now that incandescents really are no longer a thing, manufacturers are starting to try to reverse that damage, but it will be another decade or three before the incorrect usage (mostly) goes away.  The only problem is that consumers will still want to know how much the thing will cost them when they flip the switch, and they pay in watts, so it will always be with us to some extent.

TLDR; Lotsa watts don't always mean hella bright :)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 11:34:51 am by RandyT »

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Last login:Today at 04:40:51 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
i'm coming up with my own measurement....with blackjack....and hookers!

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Fusselkroete, don't let the criticisms cover up how grateful we are for this program.  I bought these guns a decade ago to add to my arcade cabinet.  Finally they are accurate enough to use them.  Thank you.   :notworthy:

QFT!  It's again important to emphasize that the software is extremely usable and with many options for dialing in accuracy, which is a huge accomplishment by Fusselkroete, especially given that the software is beta and free! 

The fact that it works so well even at this stage shows just how much potential it has to become the choice for folks wanting to add a relatively inexpensive, accurate and wireless light gun to their arcade setups, regardless of their technical background.  Any criticisms are meant to be 100% constructive.  They are just us "pointing out minor bumps in an otherwise smooth road" to hopefully help Fusselkroete to improve the user experience in future versions. 

Even the biggest issue I have found (which may or may not be specifically related to my setup) is not game-breaking, as the software recovers quickly enough to not be a major issue in actual use, so I would encourage any "fence-sitters" reading this to give it a try.  You won't be disappointed!

If I didn't see something great here, I wouldn't care enough to take the time.  But I do, I have, and will continue to do so until Fusselkroete tells me he's tired of reading my crap :)

luminary watt is different, but related to power watt in the case of incandescency (is that a word?).......but is different to the "watt" led's use to describe the output cause they try and equivalent it. and then try and throw in a meter^2 onto that to make it extra confusing.

That's why they should never have used the term "watt" with any LED (or other light source, for that matter) to describe it's output.  It's, scientifically speaking, an entirely unrelated unit of measure.  One example I saw stated was that a 50-watt LED automobile headlamp bulb had the equivalent output to that of a 500-watt halogen.  Using watts in this way is like saying that your electric space heater is a 1500-watt ni-chrome IR bulb, which is just stupid.  But it all stems from the invention of the tungsten filament light bulb, which put out a specific amount of light depending on the power it consumed.  It was a frame of reference most consumers of the time could relate to, and it simultaneously told them the relative cost to use them.  So, the reference was stored, seemingly permanently, into our collective DNA.  Now that incandescents really are no longer a thing, manufacturers are starting to try to reverse that damage, but it will be another decade or three before the incorrect usage (mostly) goes away.  The only problem is that consumers will still want to know how much the thing will cost them when they flip the switch, and they pay in watts, so it will always be with us to some extent.

TLDR; Lotsa watts don't always mean hella bright :)

Yeah no problem i see it also as constructive critism. Seems like he realy found a bug. i thought this was fixed already hehe or maybe his wiimote is broken. not sure :D  Thanks for all your feedback :D

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Ok to summarize what we found out:

Seems like the BT dongle is not from the compatibility list from the guide: http://wiibrew.org/wiki/List_of_Working_Bluetooth_Devices
For all users out there better use an good compatible bt dongle like from the list.

I use "TP-Link UB400 Nano USB Bluetooth 4.0". The Problem is i can't test all the BT dongles out there, thats why the list suggestion :D.

But the wiimotes are connecting and the App become feeded with data. So maybe its not compatible, but it maybe can become compatible. So i have now several ideas how to make it more stable and many guesses why it fails:

# the bt dongle sends the data in a too low or too high frequency. too high frequency should not be a problem:
> Will try to interpolate this in future versions with one frame buffer or tell the user that the BT-Dongle is bad. Will do some tests with these two scanarios.

# timer resolution for time stamps could be different on this Operation system.
> Will check on that.

# the accelation sensor has different update timing for each device seperate from the wiimote update frequence. so maybe some accelation values get stucked all 2 frames or something.
> Will try to make a accelation check.


So big thanks to randy for giving me inspirations.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 11:38:41 am by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
After conversing with Fusselkroete, I'm even more stoked about his software.  I never even realized that the gyro was being utilized.  One thing I can say is when I can get it to do it's magic on my setup, it works great. 

RE: Bluetooth. 

Usually when there is a Bluetooth problem, it either A: doesn't connect at all or B: there is a lack of connected device support.  Neither of which seemed to be happening, so I assumed that it shouldn't be the source of the issues, because at times, it worked perfectly.  However, having dealt with similar issues personally with different USB chipsets, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the Bluetooth implementation (in my case, a modern Intel Wireless chipset) has some differences from the implementation used in the vast selection of known working BT USB dongles.  If Fusselkroete can pinpoint that source of contention, then great, but until then I will be picking up the same dongle he uses, to aid in testing.  Either I'll have a perfectly working setup with portability between systems as a result, or I'll be able to remove it as a possibility for what I have been seeing.  Either way is a positive, as the adapters aren't costly :)

But honestly, I am not convinced that BT is the cause of the behaviors I am seeing (I won't refer to them as "issues", because I haven't done any actual gameplay testing yet, and it's unlikely to cause major problems).  As of now, I have tested with 4 different bluetooth adapters.  1 which connected perfectly with the native Windows Bluetooth stack.  I have also tested with 3 other "generic" USB dongle BT adapters through the Toshiba Bluetooth stack.  2 of these connected up right away, while 1 was a little more problematic in getting the Toshiba stack to talk to it.  However, all were tested and showed exactly the same behavior, tested with two different Wii remotes.

Were I to guess, and let me stress that I am :), my guess would be that the algorithm which processes the acceleration values is at the root of the undesirable behavior.  But thankfully, Fusselkroete has been very responsive and is "on the hunt" for a solution.  For that I am grateful, as this setup works nearly perfectly and I am excited to put it to use.

RE: LEDs.

-------------
WARNING:  Do things the way you want and don't think that just because it works for me, it'll work for you.  Parts and installation skills vary, so test everything to make sure it meets your standards for safety and reliability.  The following is not a recommendation!
-------------

With that out of the way, I just thought I would provide an update on my LED install.  The 6.5v supply and the 4 850nm LEDs soldered in series with 18ga wire to act as a de-facto heat sink, terminated to a 1/4w resistor labeled as .1 ohms, seems to be working just fine.  The LEDs are warm, as is about 3" of the connecting wires on each side of the LED, but not approaching anything I would consider hot.  The 2.5amp supply I selected barely gets warm even after many hours of being powered continuously.  On the 50" screen, I am able to be 10' away and still have them visible to the camera.  So, I'm pretty happy with the way this has been working out so far. 

However, with this type of setup, the wire will affect things, so that's important to consider.  A fraction of an ohm of resistance will change how much power the LEDs get, and the wire is sinking heat from them.  Therefore, differences in length and gauge will very likely show different overall results.  Anyone deciding to go this route should at minimum check operating temperatures of everything on occasion, and definitely place an appropriately small fuse in-line in case something were to go wrong. And be sure to turn them off when not actively being used or unattended. If one of the LEDs should happen to stop consuming it's share of the power and passes it on to the others, the rest will get real hot, real fast, so a current limiting device such as the one used by BadMouth is a much safer approach.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2022, 02:50:30 pm by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
For the record my Asus USBBT500 bluetooth dongle has behaved perfectly since installing on the cab.

With Lichtknarre running in the background all I have to do is turn on the guns and press/release the sync button.
Haven't timed it, but after anywhere from a few to ten seconds they both pair and are ready to go.

I tested it by turning off the guns and turning them back on a few hours later as well as shutting the computer down and powering it back on.
I think they'll work out fine on the cab.  The user just has to know to press the sync button and wait for it to pair (indicated by the lights on the gun).

I just measured and from my playing position the tip of the gun is only 25" from the 27" (16:9) screen.  The lens on the guns look flat from the outside, but it must be fisheye.

New wire comes in today.  I will know more when I start configuring games.


RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
For the record my Asus USBBT500 bluetooth dongle has behaved perfectly since installing on the cab.

With Lichtknarre running in the background all I have to do is turn on the guns and press/release the sync button.
Haven't timed it, but after anywhere from a few to ten seconds they both pair and are ready to go.

That describes exactly the simple experience I had with the Intel on-board BT and the standard stack shipped with Win10.  Once paired in the BT devices, Windows knew about the controllers and they just connected with the double button press from that time on.  Very pain-free compared to having to use an external BT stack like the Toshiba one, so having a BT adapter which works with the native Windows stack is definitely a big plus.

Edit:  Just started from scratch again and saw that Lichtknarre didn't even require the (secret?) BT setup step from within Windows.  It just paired it up....amazing as usual :)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 06:18:19 pm by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
LEDs worked fine last night.  This morning they didn't light.  Top center one seems dead.  The same thing happened previously when I had them taped to my desktop, but I wasn't using heatsinks then and was experimenting with the amount of current I was giving them.  In the cab they only receive 300mA and the heatsinks didn't even get warm.  This one was subjected to the soldering iron a couple more times because it was wired backwards to begin with.

Not sure what this means, but let me know if you have any of these LEDs fail Randy.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
LEDs worked fine last night.  This morning they didn't light.  Top center one seems dead.  The same thing happened previously when I had them taped to my desktop, but I wasn't using heatsinks then and was experimenting with the amount of current I was giving them.  In the cab they only receive 300mA and the heatsinks didn't even get warm.  This one was subjected to the soldering iron a couple more times because it was wired backwards to begin with.

Not sure what this means, but let me know if you have any of these LEDs fail Randy.

So far, so good on mine.  I forgot to turn mine off one time and they were on for 24hrs continuous. 

It could very well have been the extra soldering. Usually, this type of LED only sees a trip through a tightly temperature-controlled reflow oven, so the iron shouldn't be hotter than necessary, and one should work quickly with it.

For anyone who might not be sure how to solder these, I've found the best approach is to use a good flux, and place a liberally-sized blob of solder on both the wire end and the wing of the LED.  Then place the wire end onto the wing and heat the wire until the two blobs just melt together and get the iron away from it.  There are tools for heatsinking temperature sensitive parts while soldering, but that's probably overkill for these as long as one works quickly.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
BT Update:

I received the TP-Link UB400 units today...Unfortunately, they are exactly the same units internally as the generic CSR 4.0 dongles I have already tested from my collection.  I assume the TP-Link units are legit, as I have verified through the documentation that they do indeed use the CSR 4.0 chipset.

Unfortunately, I still see the same odd tilting behavior with the new dongles. :'(   But I guess on the bright side, if this does get resolved, I haven't found a BT adapter yet which wouldn't connect up. :)

Fusselkroete:  Does your TP-Link UB400 dongle also show up as a "Generic Bluetooth Radio" with Device ID VID_0A12&PID_0001?  Just want to make sure I've exhausted all possibilities for error.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
BT Update:

I received the TP-Link UB400 units today...Unfortunately, they are exactly the same units internally as the generic CSR 4.0 dongles I have already tested from my collection.  I assume the TP-Link units are legit, as I have verified through the documentation that they do indeed use the CSR 4.0 chipset.

Unfortunately, I still see the same odd tilting behavior with the new dongles. :'(   But I guess on the bright side, if this does get resolved, I haven't found a BT adapter yet which wouldn't connect up. :)

Fusselkroete:  Does your TP-Link UB400 dongle also show up as a "Generic Bluetooth Radio" with Device ID VID_0A12&PID_0001?  Just want to make sure I've exhausted all possibilities for error.

Hi i spoke with some user user who used the same dongle and had this CSR driver installed. Windows tend to use the CSR Driver when another dongle installed it. But when you delete the driver than this dongle will be recognized as generic bluetooth dongle under windows and will work fine. i will add that to the troubleshooting guide. i think maybe you can erease this driver DriverStoreExplorer. But on your own risk.

Update:

ok ask him again. he only deleted the driver over windows manager.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2022, 11:22:25 am by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Hi i spoke with some user user who used the same dongle and had this CSR driver installed. Windows tend to use the CSR Driver when another dongle installed it. But when you delete the driver than this dongle will be recognized as generic bluetooth dongle under windows and will work fine. i will add that to the troubleshooting guide. i think maybe you can erease this driver DriverStoreExplorer. But on your own risk.

Update:

ok ask him again. he only deleted the driver over windows manager.

For older operating systems, The TP-Link dongle wants the "Harmony" CSR stuff.  None of that was installed.  It's just using the standard generic drivers from Microsoft.   I suspect you will see the same hardware IDs on your BT adapter.

Unfortunately, no difference in behavior with the UB400 dongle.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Fusselkroete,

About the offsets for 4:3 vs widescreen games; I planned to bother you after checking to see if there was already a solution people were using for other guns.
There doesn't appear to be.

I know I can manually change the offsets https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/,
but for an arcade cabinet we like to have this change be automatic.

I know this is a future feature that is planned:
Someday there will be a profile-feature for settings available. This feature can also switch profiles when a specific process runs. Than you can load different offsets for different games.

The emulators in our arcade cabinets are launched and controlled via command line.  If I could change offsets via command line (small batch file), that is all I would need to accomplish everything.
No need to track which processes are running.

Most games have original service menu calibrations which make the gun work perfectly, but it would be nice to know they will work for even the old oddball games.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com

Just wanted to give an update.  Fusselkoete has been amazingly responsive to my whining ( :laugh2:), and provided me with a test version which no longer exhibits the odd behavior I outlined in earlier posts.  I am stunned at just how well this works now! Super Fast and accurate, with no weirdness.  It's as close to an actual light gun on a CRT as I have ever experienced on an LCD (plasma in my case) panel, and I have experienced plenty of other attempts to get there.  And this one is even wireless!

So, I didn't really need any different BT adapters, but they won't go to waste.  I did, however, get some experience testing these.  I can say that there's no need to get overly concerned about the adapter type.  But I can also say that one should probably avoid the older Broadcom adapters and stick with the cheapo CSR 4.0 type adapters, at least on Win10.  I'd even go as far as saying that just about any modern BT implementation already working with Win10, will very likely work with Lichtknarre, so if you have one already built into a recent MB, you should at least try that one first!  I tested with an older Broadcom adapter built into my laptop, and while it worked and connected as well as any other, performance was very poor (slow).  But I am a happy camper now and feel quite positive about setting up to actually put all of this to use :).  Well done Fusselkroete!  And thankfully, he's not done with the software.  It looks like more positive features are on the way!

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Fusselkroete,

About the offsets for 4:3 vs widescreen games; I planned to bother you after checking to see if there was already a solution people were using for other guns.
There doesn't appear to be.

I know I can manually change the offsets https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/,
but for an arcade cabinet we like to have this change be automatic.

I know this is a future feature that is planned:
Someday there will be a profile-feature for settings available. This feature can also switch profiles when a specific process runs. Than you can load different offsets for different games.

The emulators in our arcade cabinets are launched and controlled via command line.  If I could change offsets via command line (small batch file), that is all I would need to accomplish everything.
No need to track which processes are running.

Most games have original service menu calibrations which make the gun work perfectly, but it would be nice to know they will work for even the old oddball games.

Hi first of all your cab looks amazing!

will make this profilemanager also manageable over commandline. The commandline forward to already running process is already implemented in new testversion.
4 LED Tracker will get a Game-Offset configuration also. Atm im very busy but all development will continue in january.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 03:41:52 am by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Just wanted to add a note here that I have tried a cheap fish-eye lens held somewhat precariously onto the front of the controller with a drop off hot melt.  Before I knocked it off by accidentally hitting it on the edge of my desk, I was able to confirm that it works surprisingly well.  It easily cut the distance I needed to be from the screen for all blobs to be visible to the camera, to half of what it was prior, with no adverse effect on tracking ability.  But I did notice a vertical offset, perhaps due to the lens not being exactly aligned with the optical axis of the camera.  I will continue to experiment with this and it will most likely become a permanent addition to my gun shell.  I would recommend this to others as well, especially for larger screen sizes in 16:9 formats.

And as a goof, I start looking for non-lightgun titles to play with the lightgun.  For some reason, the original starwars game came immediately to mind. While this might be considered sacrilege, I imagine most aren't playing that game with a yoke, so I don't see a difference.  It worked extremely well, and I was able to get through 3 levels and got a score of 185k on the first serious game.  Most of all, it was actually fun to play that way!

If anyone knows how to force Missile Command to work with a lightgun, please let me know  :lol

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
This is turning into a diary  :lol

I was finally able to spend some time actually trying out some of my old favorites, and even though the emulation in MAME isn't up to par, I had a good time with Virtua Cop, which I haven't played since disconnecting my old Sega consoles and putting them into storage. 

I'm not sure if it's a placebo effect, but I too noticed that crosshair movement seems much quicker when the vJoy module is used and the Analog Sensitivity in MAME is cranked to maximum.  I'm not sure how much it affects things, but I recommend doing this anyway as it there are no negatives.

My personal biggest hurdle when playing without a crosshair of any kind is that I am VERY used to the GunCon2 controller, and I know exactly where it is aiming on-screen without needing to look down the sites.  While the PerfectShot shells feel good in the hand and work pretty smoothly, the angles are slightly different from the GC2, and there is very little visual feedback in VC for where the shots are landing to regain orientation, without using the sites.  A little "creative calibration" seemed to help in this regard, however...

In order for me to transition to this particular gun, it was necessary to have some sort of crosshair visible on the screen as a training aid, but the default MAME crosshair is huge and somewhat silly looking, so I made my own laser-dot crosshair, which is small and unobtrusive.  I have to say, with this crosshair graphic the Lichtknarre software makes it feel like you literally have a laser-pointer on the business end of your controller.   After a few rounds of using it, I turned it off and found that my aim had improved greatly and the laser-crosshair was no longer necessary.  But leaving it on is still great fun, even if it feels a bit like cheating.

I have attached the file for anyone who would like to use it.  It can be unzipped into your MAME working folder with the folder structure intact, in case you don't already have a folder made for these.

I've also tested a number of rounds in PointBlank.  While I haven't yet been able to do as well with this type of title with the new gun and the Lichtknarre software, as I am able to do with the GC2 on my PS2 and 37" CRT, it's much closer than I would have imagined.  So far, I am VERY impressed with the software and I suspect that it will only get better! 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 02:05:26 pm by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
We designed a bunch of crosshair options back in the day for Troubleshooter 2 including different color laser sights.
Couldn't find the thread, but they are in the Troubleshooter 2 download.
http://dragonking.arcadecontrols.com/static.php?page=aboutTS2
(download link is on the right column)

I am good without crosshairs.  ;D

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
We designed a bunch of crosshair options back in the day for Troubleshooter 2 including different color laser sights.
Couldn't find the thread, but they are in the Troubleshooter 2 download.
http://dragonking.arcadecontrols.com/static.php?page=aboutTS2
(download link is on the right column)

I am good without crosshairs.  ;D

That's a good selection!  But honestly, I was looking for one which wasn't so large and dense in the center, rather a bit more "ethereal" as I wanted a reference to see where I was currently aiming before acquiring the next target, but not something so "in your face" as to focus on using it to aim.  The one I posted is truthfully a bit difficult to see at times, especially given MAME's function of pulsing the image (at least it seems to on mine.)  But it does help to get a feel for a different gun than one might be used to, or if one has never used a gun, sans crosshairs, but would eventually like to without relying on the sights.

I think one of the issues I have with this gun setup is the overall balance/weight distribution.  With the entire Wii remote (and batteries) perched atop a hollow plastic shell, it tends to be a little top and forward heavy, which I am really not used to, coming from the GC2.  The trigger pull is also very different from a traditional "built-for-purpose" gun controller with a proper microswitch trigger.  I think that I may be taking this shell apart and adding some weight to the grip area to help balance it a little better.  Eventually, I'll probably do a full-on controller hack with some custom shells, which will provide a proper trigger and place the other buttons where they can be used without an awkward hold.

You don't know how good you have it with the controller you have (j/k I'm sure you do :D)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 11:53:55 am by RandyT »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Note to self:  If MAME says a game is not working, it's really not working, no matter how much it seems to be (duh).

My issues with VC were almost entirely related to testing with incomplete emulation.  Lag, missed shots not showing locations (as it turns out they should have been) and some hits not even registering were making things tougher in MAME than they should have been. A properly working emulator for this title made a massive difference.

If there was a reload button which wasn't on top of the gun, gameplay with this setup would be nearly perfect.  I dare say as good as a CRT lightgun and maybe even better in some aspects.  That's something I never thought I would be typing.  :o

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
If there was a reload button which wasn't on top of the gun, gameplay with this setup would be nearly perfect.  I dare say as good as a CRT lightgun and maybe even better in some aspects.  That's something I never thought I would be typing.  :o

Virtua Cop works fine in Model 2 Emulator.  Using gun as a mouse works by default, but the Troubleshooter 2 program is required to have 2 guns working.
I haven't had time to set up Troubleshooter 2 and Demulshooter for proper 2 player action.  My dishwasher leaked and ruined the subfloor, so now I have to do a kitchen remodel including building the cabinets.  I was looking forward to doing it someday, but not under these circumstances with this low of a budget.

Just in case you don't have it set, there is an option in mame.ini for...

offscreen_reload          1

TimeCrisis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 153
  • Last login:July 22, 2023, 04:32:47 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
anyone got pcsx2 or TC5 working on it yet? geekonarium's video link said he couldn't get it to work.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
I've been quietly following this thread waiting for you guys to figure out the best leds/spacing/ect.   Once you do it's rather trivial to send rumble/led commands to a wiimote, which of course could be hacked to control a solenoid. 

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I've been quietly following this thread waiting for you guys to figure out the best leds/spacing/ect.   Once you do it's rather trivial to send rumble/led commands to a wiimote, which of course could be hacked to control a solenoid.

For the LEDs, the ones BadMouth found are working really well.  I can't imagine a reason for looking further, unless one has a specifically different type of installation in mind (i.e. projector).  But I very much recommend that they be tested with a standard 1.5v battery (or a bench supply set to 1.5v if you have one) prior to soldering.  The third string I put together was dead when I tested it, and I was extremely conscious to the polarity so I knew it wasn't a wiring error on my part.  Turns out that the first LED in the string was completely dead, and either it was that way out of the package, or I put a little too much heat to it, which is possible, but unlikely.  I also noticed that at least one of them I tested from the package had a very different current draw at the same voltage as the others, which is really only observable with a bench supply or a meter.  If possible, it's a good idea to look at this as well before making the string. 

But so far, I have had these running for many hours without issues, which brings me to another point.  BadMouth's observation about the 840nm having an advantage of being slightly visible, to help prevent leaving them on when not in use, is spot on.  They are absolutely not distracting during use (I don't even see them), but serve as a gentle reminder to turn them off, which I have forgotten to do on several occasions.

RE: Positioning.

I've used the little application I made twice, and both times everything just worked after eyeballing positions against the lines on the screen after the measurements were taken.  As the last one was on my 37" CRT, it also helped to adjust the image size and position properly.  Honestly, positioning was the easiest part.  TIP:  if using this on a CRT, set it and forget it (size and position).   If you like to twiddle knobs on your CRT, you will screw up your nice calibration.  In that sense, flat panels are more dimensionally stable.

RE: Rumble.

The software already sends a rumble to the remote on trigger press, so it wouldn't be hard to turn that into a solenoid actuation.  The trick would be to come up with a "driver" for each game to inject it into the control stream, without messing up the core function of the Lichtknarre software.  But I expect that may be possible at some point using the plug-in system he has planned.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
I was kind of hoping we could get it to a point to where off the shelf leds could be used without much fuss.   Right now, with these dead led stories it sounds like they are still fussy.

Mamehooker already supports wiimotes.   Depending upon his communication method they can potentially work independently of each other without interference.  It's a generic HID write if I remember correctly. 

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I was kind of hoping we could get it to a point to where off the shelf leds could be used without much fuss.   Right now, with these dead led stories it sounds like they are still fussy.

Mamehooker already supports wiimotes.   Depending upon his communication method they can potentially work independently of each other without interference.  It's a generic HID write if I remember correctly.

Buying them from Amazon (provided they are also shipped from Amazon) is about as "off the shelf" as it gets nowadays :)  Don't let the LED comments spook you.  It's just the typical Chinese goods saga where shoddy QC is the order of the day.  You can use any IR LEDs you want to, if these give you the jitters.  You can even take the Nintendo route and use little clusters with a lower performance LED and just point them in slightly different directions from one another. These were just a good selection because they are relatively cheap, powerful, have wide viewing angles (which seem to match the datasheet) and are in a small and attractive case.  They also need only a simple wire connection, with no PCB or heatsink if used properly. There are others which are similar, but more money, and which may also have better QC...or they could be exactly the same and you just end up paying more.  It's always a crap shoot with Chinese stuff, but it's not like there's much of a choice :)

If you don't like soldering, you could probably also just buy a pre-made IR LED set with wires intended for a different light gun, so long as the wires are long enough for the screen size and the layout required.  It seems like the same camera module is used in those other guns, so if it works for them, it will work for the Wii remote.

You are probably correct about Mamehooker just working with the remotes.  As long as there's no low-level shenanigans, an HID device should just act on commands from whatever is talking to it.  It deserves a try if you already have something which works to identify the active process and relays recoil or rumble information.  It'll probably just work. 

« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 10:42:19 am by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I was wondering when Howard would show up.   ;D

$3 with heatsink from AliExpress, but you only get one spare: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255800909434686.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US
Step down voltage and current regulator like the one I'm using can be had for about the same price.  Long wait for shipping, but add some 18 gauge wire and a random wall wart and you can play along.
(assuming you already have a wii controller and bluetooth)

There is an official setup on the Lichtnarre website which uses heatsinks and separate lenses, but I wanted something smaller and cheaper.
I thought about using those heatsinks and cutting one side off to get the LED closer to the screen, but have too many other things going on at the moment.
I am happy with the way mine are set up now, but haven't had time to finish setting up the guns or put many hours on the LEDs.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 07:50:46 am by BadMouth »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
I'll throw a couple batches of those leds in my cart, thanks.   In regard to positioning the leds, couldn't we do that with a simple graphics displayed on the screen with guide lines?  I'm sorry I arrived late on this one, but I have several questions.....

Can the leds be powered via USB or do they draw too much current?

What's a good bluetooth adapter to use?  The last one I bought came over on the mayflower so my data on the subject is probably outdated at this point.

What about lenses?  You mentioned the wide-angle lens but I'm wondering how we can improve upon that.   I have a 3d printer, so if we can find a reliable, readily available and inexpensive lens with something to attach with (like some threads) I would be willing to work on adapters.  It seems like one for the standard wiimote, one for the zapper, one for the sega gun shell and one for the capcom gun shell would do it.

I remember at some point a third party was working on wireless nunchucks that piggybacked the I2C data stream and used it to inject their own data.  Did anything become of that?   I reason I ask is instead of hacking up wiimotes to add solenoids/ect.  maybe we could hook a avr to the I2c port and read the led and rumble data and control solenoids/motors/ect. that way.   I'm not sure what the best route is in regard to that, but I'm just throwing ideas out there.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
but I have several questions.....

Hate to be "that guy" but you should probably take a few minutes to read the thread from the beginning.  There's a lot of "back and forth" there, but also the answers to most of your questions, as well as a little app I wrote which seems to work in helping to position LEDs.  I've used it twice so far and haven't had any position issues.  YMMV :)

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
I did but I'm still not following some of it.   

Is the ub400 dongle good or not?   The author seems to think so, but your responses seem to contradict that and then you say he fixed some things and it's working but it is a little unclear if you are referring to your built-in dongle or the suggested one that eventually works without issue.  I mean my new pc doesn't have built in bluetooth so I might as well order the suggested one, but it'd be nice to get a list of "what you need" a little more concrete so others can follow along.

Anything concrete on the wide angle lenses?  Product link?  I just don't know where to start in regard to that.   I'm assuming something similar to those clip on lenses you can get for cell phones but I'm not sure.

In regards to the leds themselves I think I can design something to clip them into that wouldn't add to their footprint.   Perhaps a disc with some lines printed on it to aid in alignment.   

It looks like you seem to think a standard 6.5v power supply is good for the leds but if we can get a system down to 3.3v 300ma (unlikely I know) then it could just be plugged into the usb port in the back of most modern flat screens and make the setup far less complicated, especially for non-permanent setups. Probably not worth the effort, but this seems like the first sub $100 method of getting an ir gun where you don't have to build it from scratch.  The closer we can get it to turn key, the better.   

Regardless, I'll order some stuff tonight.  Going to get those leds on the slow boat from China but I'll catch up eventually. 


Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
I bought the leds badmouth suggested.   I also bought these lenses to play around with:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804461463984.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.4.9b611802HOwesz&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US

The fact that they come with the little clip to screw into means I can just tack them in place until I can determine if they are actually viable.  Now to order a bluetooth adapter.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Is the ub400 dongle good or not?   The author seems to think so, but your responses seem to contradict that and then you say he fixed some things and it's working but it is a little unclear if you are referring to your built-in dongle or the suggested one that eventually works without issue.

After some testing, my conclusion is that the built-in BT in my particular system didn't cause the software to behave any differently than the CSR 4.0 dongles I already had, or the UB400 (same CSR 4.0 tech) I purchased later.  But how well the internal BT works may vary across systems, as there are multiple different chipsets and the tech could be old and not fully compatible.  I tried an old laptop, and while the software worked, the updates were so slow it would be unusable.

Fusselkroete is currently looking at certain aspects of the software to see why it breaks on one of my systems.  He has already sent me a test version which disabled some things and it worked 100% better on that system, so he knows what's causing it and is now trying to figure out why.  On my 37" CRT with a quad-core, the normal release version works fine.

At least in my case, a $5 CSR 4.0 BT dongle works, so there's little reason not to get one.  Many probably already have one laying around nowadays.  But the software is free and available, so I recommend just testing the built-in BT and only try buying a dongle if the software isn't working correctly.

Quote
Anything concrete on the wide angle lenses?

Not at this point.  I bought one like you described, but I have no idea how much they vary across vendors, or whether it's even optimal for this.  One thing I can just about guarantee is that it will not perform as well as it could, if strapped to the front of a controller.  The distance between the camera and first lens should be as small as possible to prevent vignetting of the final image.  Focus could be affected as well, but that's probably not the biggest concern with this type of camera.  Oh, and center alignment is SUPER important.  While the camera MAY be in the exact center of that little window, it doesn't need to be to perform correctly as it's designed.  If it isn't, and this is what the mount is based upon, then it won't be correct so that stuff needs to be verified.

While not certain, I do believe that Fusselkroete will eventually need to add lens compensation to the 4-point tracking in order to make it perfect.  With a cheap "fish-eye" lens, the image will elongate at greater levels the further from center it is.  This would have implications for accuracy, so should be accounted for.

Without one, at least with a 4:3 monitor, I don't find myself needing to stand further back than I would normally with an actual lightgun.  Then again, I'm not a "screen basher" when I play. :)

Quote
In regards to the leds themselves I think I can design something to clip them into that wouldn't add to their footprint.   Perhaps a disc with some lines printed on it to aid in alignment.   

You certainly can, but it would really only be for cosmetics.  Some good, strong double-sticky on the back would be good for mounting as well, with the larger surface area.  Personally, I wasn't concerned with that, as both monitors have dark bezels and are in very poorly lit environments.  The black, cloth gaffers tape I found a long time ago at the dollar store worked perfectly. (I really wish I bought a case of the stuff...makes duct tape look like the junk that it is.)

Quote
It looks like you seem to think a standard 6.5v power supply is good for the leds but if we can get a system down to 3.3v 300ma (unlikely I know) then it could just be plugged into the usb port in the back of most modern flat screens and make the setup far less complicated, especially for non-permanent setups.

Unfortunately, it's not possible without giving up a lot.  The Wii could get away with cheap, low output LEDs because there were only two LEDs (well, clusters, but they were at different angles) and they were positioned a lot closer together.  That means you could be a lot closer to them so the output could be lower.  That said, the Lichtknarre software allows the use of a Wii bar with the correct plug-in, so you may be able to go that route if you are willing to sacrifice accuracy.  But I had no interest in doing that.  If you want the best results, it takes a bit more effort.

And more importantly, if you go with the 6.5v supply, make sure it's a GOOD one (i.e. well-regulated at that voltage and with more than enough current delivery) AND you use an appropriate resistor AND the wire gauge is sufficient to carry away some heat (or use heatsinks for the LEDs).  Otherwise, I wouldn't even attempt it as you'll risk your LEDs and maybe even whatever is around them.  Play safe.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 01:36:34 pm by RandyT »

zeorangr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
  • Last login:Today at 10:48:10 am
    • forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,165836.0.html
Well, this definitely seems promising, and could potentially be a lot better than what I originally came up with for getting working lightguns on the cabinet.

I initially bought a Sinden lightgun to check it out, but it didn't really work well with my cab, because when I tested it the Sinden software didn't play nicely with a rotated screen (I'm using a 50" TV in portrait orientation in my cabinet), and it throws the tracking off by 90 degrees (so moving the gun up and down moves the cursor left and right, and vice versa).

I'm currently using two wii remotes in plastic gun shells as 'lightguns' on my cabinet, which are each connected via bluetooth to their own mayflash dolphinbar adapter on the mode 2 setting ('keyboard and mouse game mode').  For whatever reason, the tracking when trying to use either of the dolphinbar adapters (one at a time) as an IR source was kinda awful, so after testing it and noting that it worked WAY better than the dolphinbars did, I tucked both dolphinbar adapters inside the cabinet, then cut up an old spare original Wii sensor bar that I had laying around and mounted both of the 'LED Clusters' contained therein on my cabinet and wired them up to a little AC Adapter I had laying around so they're powered, and the wiimotes have something to 'see' and track.  I edited some smaller (than the default) crosshairs and played around with the control sensitivity in MAME, and while I still have to rely on the crosshairs more than I'd like this setup works far better than I'd expected it to in MAME.  I can only use a single gun in non-MAME stuff (likely because MAME utilizes RAW input so it can interact with them as distinct devices instead of just 'the mouse'), so for things like the recent House of the Dead Remake that was released on steam - it works ok, but is single-player only (because only one gun works).

So looking for alternatives, I had just about decided to start looking at what it would take to scrounge up all the assorted parts to try and build a couple of Gun4IR guns when I stumbled on this thread.

With the holidays basically here, I doubt I'll have a lot of free time to tinker with things in any meaningful way for at least a few weeks, but if I actually get some free time I may go ahead and try installing and configuring this on the cabinet and just see what all it can do.  Until I can do that though, I have a couple of (possibly dumb) questions.


1. Assuming the game itself supports 2 players, would Lichtknarre provide the ability to use 2 'guns' in non-MAME lightgun games (like HOTD:R)?  If not 'out of the box', then in conjunction with another tool like DEMULShooter or Troubleshooter (of which, the former I'd heard of but not researched, and the latter I'm just learning about in reading through the thread)?  I'm seeing something about a vJoy plugin on the Lichtknarre webpage (and thanks to RandyT for sharing that!), and it looks like there are some instructions there, but I'm not sure how that would work - does it translate the x/y positioning from the wiimote to a virtual gamepad's analog stick and then pass that analog stick position value to the game?

2. What about other non-mame emulators - DEMUL, as an example (for HOTD2 / Sports Shooting / Clay Challenge / Other NAOMI or Atomiswave shooters) or for the few actual PC-based lightgun (or lightgun-esque) games?

3. Conversely, are there any (lightgun) games / emulators that are known that Lichtknarre does NOT work with that I might want to be aware of?

4. While I'm looking for more accuracy and will definitely go with a 4-position LED setup eventually if this works for me, would I be able to start using Lichtknarre with my existing LEDs and add more / reposition them later?  (Based on what I'm reading here, it seems like there's an available plugin to use a standard sensor bar which should work with my current setup, but I wanted to confirm).

5. It's sounding like using Lichtknarre I won't need the dolphinbar adapters, and instead I can just use either the built-in bluetooth on the PC running my cabinet or I can get a cheap BT adapter to link the wiimotes with - just to confirm though, would both wiimotes be able to pair with a single bluetooth adapter and work simultaneously using Lichtknarre, or would I instead need a single BT adapter for each wii remote?

6. Having run into the issue with the Sinden, are there any known issues with using Lichtknarre with a portrait-oriented TV?

 Apologies if these are already answered elsewhere - I'm just really getting started seriously looking at this and it's looking pretty fantastic so far.  I definitely have more reading to do.


(edit - added question 6)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 03:47:51 pm by zeorangr »
-z-

holmes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 39
  • Last login:Today at 05:42:06 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Hi,

I have been trying for a while to build gun4ir guns but I have not been so successfull because of my poor soldering capabilities. My "working" prototype generally freezes after a few minutes.
So I am very interested in this thread and have done some tests. I used the LEDS I had prepared for the gun4irs, the 2 wiimotes I bought when I tried a dolphinbar and the BT device integrated to my motherboard.


Notice the leds are not so powerful.


Notice the quality of precision of the leds positionning

I downloaded all the software. I positionned the leds with the LK_LED_PLACE tool and noticed I passed the Lichtknarrel step 3 without doing any adjustement. I did not try to use the offsets.

I used vjoy and made some tests with the Lost world (Model 3) and Transformers:Human alliance. It worked reasonnably well for 2 players.
I have however 3 questions:
- I have nunchuks and they do not seem to be recognized (buttons not detected). Is it normal?
- if using a gun-shaped wiimote holder, how to reload without having to use one of the top buttons (not convenient)?
- I understood using a wide lens in front of the wiimote to shorten the usable distance should work. Am I correct?

Thanks

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Getting the other inputs/accessories to work should be trivial.  I made a test program a few years back in vb6 and I managed to read all accessory controllers fairly easy... it's just i2c stuff like everything else.   If the author isn't willing, I'd be glad to add it with their permission.  We definitely need more options in terms of defining buttons though.  I would think for most games one would use the vjoy method and since gamepad buttons can be remapped it wouldn't matter much.   

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Getting the other inputs/accessories to work should be trivial.  I made a test program a few years back in vb6 and I managed to read all accessory controllers fairly easy... it's just i2c stuff like everything else.   If the author isn't willing, I'd be glad to add it with their permission.  We definitely need more options in terms of defining buttons though.  I would think for most games one would use the vjoy method and since gamepad buttons can be remapped it wouldn't matter much.

What is really needed is a driver (signed would be nice) which can emulate a hardware USB combo device under Windows for RAW compatibility.  Ideally, it would be able to emulate an Absolute mouse device, keyboard, an analog joystick with the usual compliment of buttons and D-Pad, and the ability to re-assign mapping on-the-fly.  Anything less may be useful, but probably a bit of a "partial-measure".  My research into this shows it to be possible, but I'm not a heavy Windows OS programmer, so outside of my wheelhouse.

Unless you have something like that up your sleeve, it might be wise to hold off a bit to see which direction Fusselkroete is heading with the software.  I think we might be seeing another update at some time in the first part of the new year. 

On a side note, I just did some testing on yet another system comprised of a more recent Gigabyte MB with an i3-10100f and a built in Intel Wireless chipset.  It appears to be working fine with the internal BT, to include the use of all of the buttons.  Fixed mapping (currently) but functional in applications which support the current input methodology.  I'll be checking for any performance differences between the internal BT and an external dongle on this system and will report back if I see any difference worth mentioning.   

greymatr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
  • Last login:Today at 02:45:47 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Just a note about a driver that could do an absolute mouse device. I picked up an Arduino Leonardo board that some projects used (such as the Vive Lighthouse ones) and have used it in some testing.

It very easily emulates an absolute mouse. It can be programmed so that it can receive a X and Y co-ordinate from Serial COM communication which is very easy to do and can position the mouse to those co-ordinates via USB.

It only needs one USB cable to plug into it which gives this bi-directional communication, that also provides it's power.

The board I got was called Arduino Compatible Leonardo R3 ATmega32U4 Development Board on eBay and only cost $16.75 Australian dollars including express postage so was very cheap.

Although this is more hardware I think it would be much easier than a software driver unless it was signed and very easy to use.

I'm hoping Fusselkroete can get the plugin system working soon so that I can write a plugin driver for it.

I'd also like to write a Vive Lighthouse plugin but that's another story ;)

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Just a note about a driver that could do an absolute mouse device. I picked up an Arduino Leonardo board that some projects used (such as the Vive Lighthouse ones) and have used it in some testing.

It very easily emulates an absolute mouse. It can be programmed so that it can receive a X and Y co-ordinate from Serial COM communication which is very easy to do and can position the mouse to those co-ordinates via USB.

I've already considered this approach.  While it would certainly work, the biggest concern, aside from additional cost, user complexity and the occupation of another USB port for an approach like this would be the possible addition of more latency.  The less that the data needs to be repackaged and shuffled around, the better.  A well-written driver would directly inject the pre-formatted data into the same Windows routines responsible for servicing the external hardware, so theoretically, it could happen in a much smaller period of time.

I.e. :

Data path for proposed hardware method=:  ([USB hub] is a possible inclusion)

Lichtknarre-->Virtual COM Port Driver-->USB Chipset-->[USB Hub]-->External USB device-->[USB Hub]-->USB Chipset-->Windows USB Processing-->Application

Whereas a purely software approach =: 

Lichtknarre-->Virtual USB Driver-->Windows USB Processing-->Application

Which one ends up being better with regard to implementation is an unknown at this point.  But I have seen people who try to use a hardware approach like this to implement cheats for online MP games complain that the lag it introduced eventually made it not very useful.  That doesn't mean it can't be done, but it would need to be done in a very efficient manner to be viable.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
It's the signed driver thing that really kills it.   Getting an unsigned driver to install on some versions of windows is annoyingly difficult.   Signed drivers cost a decent amount to purchase a license.  Vjoy is probably the best option.   Yeah, it isn't turnkey, but it is more automatic than unsigned drivers.

I agree with you on the Arduino thing... we don't need to add more lag via more processing of data.  If you are going to use an arduino then the two diy ir-gun projects we have on this forum make much more sense. 

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I used vjoy and made some tests with the Lost world (Model 3) and Transformers:Human alliance. It worked reasonnably well for 2 players.
I have however 3 questions:
- I have nunchuks and they do not seem to be recognized (buttons not detected). Is it normal?
- if using a gun-shaped wiimote holder, how to reload without having to use one of the top buttons (not convenient)?
- I understood using a wide lens in front of the wiimote to shorten the usable distance should work. Am I correct?

Thanks

I do not have nunchuks, but you probably have to configure them in vjoy for them to work.
 Fusselkroete had more axis and buttons in his vjoy configuration than me.  I assume they are for the nunchuck.

Usually games support reloading by shooting offscreen. 

I can't comment on the lens.  I am happy with the normal distance, but am using 3rd party guns that might already have a fisheye lense in them.

EDIT: The option to rotate the controller 90 degrees may be added in the future.  With a custom or 3D printed housing, this would put the buttons on the side where they would be more easily accessible.
I'd love to be tinkering with this, but will be eyeballs deep in home renovations for a couple months.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2022, 10:00:08 am by BadMouth »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Speaking of which.   Can you still buy those?   I've been having trouble finding them even on the ebay.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Speaking of which.   Can you still buy those?   I've been having trouble finding them even on the ebay.
They were never sold in the US.  The back of the package has languages and flags for a bunch of European countries, but the only people I've come across online with them bought them in Germany.

I ordered them from Amazon.de which was the only place I could find them.  I don't recall how much shipping to the US was, but it wasn't bad.
This was something like 8 or 10 years ago.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...

1. Assuming the game itself supports 2 players, would Lichtknarre provide the ability to use 2 'guns' in non-MAME lightgun games (like HOTD:R)?  If not 'out of the box', then in conjunction with another tool like DEMULShooter or Troubleshooter (of which, the former I'd heard of but not researched, and the latter I'm just learning about in reading through the thread)?  I'm seeing something about a vJoy plugin on the Lichtknarre webpage (and thanks to RandyT for sharing that!), and it looks like there are some instructions there, but I'm not sure how that would work - does it translate the x/y positioning from the wiimote to a virtual gamepad's analog stick and then pass that analog stick position value to the game?

I wasn't going to answer since I hadn't had time to actually set things up and verify (and won't have time to for a month or two), but it should work with anything that will accept vjoy input.  Yes it translates xy position to the virtual gamepads sticks.  (separate virtual controller for each player)

Quote

2. What about other non-mame emulators - DEMUL, as an example (for HOTD2 / Sports Shooting / Clay Challenge / Other NAOMI or Atomiswave shooters) or for the few actual PC-based lightgun (or lightgun-esque) games?


Works fine and I have used it in mouse mode for a single player.  Two player will require Troubleshooter 2 for Nebula M2 emulator and Demulshooter for Demul and Teknoparrot games.
Again, I have not set this up yet, but see no reason it wouldn't work.  MAME doesn't accept input from a virtual mouse, so mouse mode does not work for MAME or any other emulator that does not accept input from a virtual mouse.  (I am not aware of any other emulator that won't accept input from a virtual mouse)

Quote

3. Conversely, are there any (lightgun) games / emulators that are known that Lichtknarre does NOT work with that I might want to be aware of?


Anything that works with a virtual controller should work.

Quote
4. While I'm looking for more accuracy and will definitely go with a 4-position LED setup eventually if this works for me, would I be able to start using Lichtknarre with my existing LEDs and add more / reposition them later?  (Based on what I'm reading here, it seems like there's an available plugin to use a standard sensor bar which should work with my current setup, but I wanted to confirm).

Have not used it in 2 LED mode, but yes it will work with a standard LED bar (and be much less accurate).  I remember reading somewhere that it does not work with dolphin bar, but that's probably just as an interface.  If the dolphin bar were not connected to the PC and you only using it for the LEDs using an external power source, it would probably work for that.

Quote

5. It's sounding like using Lichtknarre I won't need the dolphinbar adapters, and instead I can just use either the built-in bluetooth on the PC running my cabinet or I can get a cheap BT adapter to link the wiimotes with - just to confirm though, would both wiimotes be able to pair with a single bluetooth adapter and work simultaneously using Lichtknarre, or would I instead need a single BT adapter for each wii remote?

Only one bluetooth adapter.  The website states that it does not work with dolphin bar.

Quote

6. Having run into the issue with the Sinden, are there any known issues with using Lichtknarre with a portrait-oriented TV?

It doesn't know or care where the screen is, only the LEDs.  But this might require that the top  or bottom LEDs be mounted in front of the screen next to the 4:3 or 16:9 image.  This might be a dealbreaker if you are stretching the vertical games.  The LEDs might end up being on top of the gameplay on vertical games.  If you are only using the extra screen real estate for marquees and artwork, then they could be placed on a divider.

If 90 degree rotation is added later, that might work out better for you.

I don't see why the sinden gun wouldn't work since it relies on a white outline in the overlay template.  As long as the white outline is around the gameplay area (which in your case might require making custom templates) it should have worked.

 

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
It's probably time we talk about the "malformed, human-flesh-eating twin in the attic" of lightgun gaming.  The software-side.  Some things will work so well straight from the start, that if you start with those, they will give you a false sense that getting things to work properly for that game or classic system you've been aching to play again, will simply be a matter of doing some minor configuration and calibration.  When reality kicks in, gird your loins and get ready for the unavoidable rabbit-hole which will consume a good chunk of your free time.

What isn't immediately apparent when diving in, is that joystick emulation, such as vJoy, only works if A: the game accepts it for input (which most if not all do to some extent) and B: the application treats that input as an absolutely positioned cursor for aiming, similar to the little controller test box in Windows.  That last part is the rub, with many an application treating the joystick input as a simple direction and pushing the cursor along at timed intervals based on the extent of the throw, never stopping unless centered.

Games require specific patches for specific controller hardware and/or specific emulators which support specific methods for collecting the data from the controller.  And sometimes, even when you think you've "cracked the code" and everything works great, your actual shots might end up a reliable half-inch to the left of the on-screen cursor you are using to debug, and there's no easy way to calibrate it.  However, in a case like this, the offset adjustment in Lichtknarre could be the stopgap solution.  It's just not (currently) automatically applied.

For me, much to the chagrin of my wallet, HOTD:R has been impossible to make work.  I've tried old versions by rolling it back in Steam, using the available patches, vJoy, and even berating it verbally without success.  The closest I've come to getting that cursor to do anything but stupidly stare back at me without changing its position was with vJoy, and then it felt like pushing a virtual hockey-puck around on a virtual-ice-covered screen.  I guess I should have been happy with that, as some Steam-based games won't work at all.  Maybe just as well, as even the ones which do, aren't all that great and the one really good one I found (Mad Bullets) seems to be maddeningly buggy. 

Unfortunately, I think much of this, aside from authors not supporting other input methods well, is due to the lack of RAW-input compatibility, and some sort of hardware may be the only solution.  With Microsoft's recent acquisition of the COD franchise, where virtual controllers are the primary vector of attack for cheating (which devalues the title considerably), I agree with the conclusions from an author of the only signed, commercially available virtual HID driver I have been able to find, who decided to cease support only a few days after I found them.  He states that MS is jacking the cost to sign these types of drivers, making them more difficult to implement on Windows 11 and beyond, and expects them to eventually go away completely.  So, it looks like COD cheaters have again spoiled the party for everyone, even for those who don't play the game.   

I don't know if it's still the case, but even the drivers for the Sinden required disabling signing in the OS at one time.  Probably not the end-of-the-world for a dedicated machine, but I'm not sure I would want to do that on an everyday gaming/general use system and it does entail a bit of OS hackery on the part of the user.

I hope Fusselkroete (he IS a smart guy) has some tricks up his sleeve, but I'm not super confident that a simple, purely software solution will be found.  All of that stated, there are still a ton of games which can be made to work, with sometimes more than a little effort.  But some will just leave you screaming into the void, and if the one you really want to play is on that list, then you'll need to figure out how to fix it yourself, wait for someone else to do it or use a different controller solution.

That's my take on things as they are currently.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2022, 04:04:20 pm by RandyT »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Yes this in the entire reason troubleshooter 1/2 and demulshooter exist.   For many games, the only way to make them behave is to hack the code and let an external program control the cursor via manual raw positioning.  It happens  on a case by case basis.   The good news is I may be back in the game assuming this new method works so I'll work on it.  ;)

So while I'm patiently waiting on my leds to arrive I've been doing some digging and I'd like to share my thoughts here.   So the guns Badmouth has are virtually unobtanium at this point which is unfortunate as they are ideal.  I feel like the cost and accessibility should be taken into account with any solution as obviously we have other solutions at this point, but they rely on hard-to-find parts or rather expensive guns.  So with the replica guns going for serious bucks what else is there?  Well, the easiest option would be one of the gun shells on the market.   The nyko perfect shot is probably the most popular shell:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165848822309?hash=item269d5c3225%3Ag%3AOBsAAOSwMo5jpb7T&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoJPkbsqyYJPvn7L9zRuJtrnMusK4qx8yLeBlKK6pEAMf0obl6o%2FzieWflxtAqqJk%2FWkle73mIeg8mSbSSOakykKEMio5bq46royiGC8j6PDCSE43RtCoyyI5eH%2BuH29%2F3EVIIn20wyGhfkY0Tg83CkOgd5EUnBjMLhGzW2chDtvke433XXiv%2FR2ZuCyLkk6z4iU1%2FxALyB6Or8Ki0oitR2I%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_T35JaqYQ&LH_ItemCondition=1000

New they are around 35 and used you can usually find a pair for around the same price.  There are problems with it though, most notably the Trigger, which mechanically pulls the B trigger and just feels mushy and bad.  Nyko later released a solution to this, namely the nyko action pak:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115630531933?epid=102416133&hash=item1aec1de55d:g:PjcAAOSwi7Fjj-c-&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoNjra0wSe7EE7eCpFbEFCqHvJtqijUohwMJ3hRuBXn8YxCG65SXgqY41dl3fNETrJDipHGAreysSZ4A3LOjly%2BJWhRUzk9NdYNzRCYApx0ddKgK%2F9Ft6FwYohrhAb%2BQDtkPIezQDzOTWtz0JfufsDO42PJmAIRBYa6phOR0Cf8vf3Bq2fPh6wevzZLtRdLrnfUlMUt6TmaB%2BkszANjGPdcs%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7r--paqYQ

With this improved shell there is a legitimate trigger with a microswitch but you'll immediately notice the problem, namely they are rare these days and fetch a fairly hefty price.  All is not lost though.   The way the press of the A/B button is transferred to the shell is via three contact pins on the back of the "wand" (I'm assuming for ground, a and b).  While the gun shell is expensive, the wand, with those three contacts, is not and can usually be had for around 10 dollars:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175297607865?hash=item28d08d38b9:g:YhsAAOSwzSxikH3y&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4MUIyaMqdCm%2F%2BkJ6tO6a7WGDFoJQw%2FgzNq06et9ZfVufA8DxOxuC0a8UyTwidbGvPWQOh0tjdmzKr%2Bv6MgFW%2BuS%2BygeiUFp5orMccm4rjUbm4fGP1PO0dkWsOfwd8AtI56KD8ihJxkPs2Y4vc0dMjydv7l1Vdn39tOwcFd3cJSdrY9RUY6x6lf%2BVVDhaF4v%2FZ01366NkvnHEkaAgx8o%2BV%2FPXH%2BqRRnoi9RZqNmnxZi7ixIJe5HvWWK8UzkJ381qHrNEktYaNFbI0X8TPYCmsO7uK%2FfVM%2BlOMMt5q%2BtH5ibTp%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5bGrJeqYQ

So buy one of these, solder on three wires (or get fancy and make a pcb with some pogo pins), and you can mount the whole thing in a modified shell with a real trigger.  These seem like a good candidate for modding:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313699774683?hash=item4909f6b0db:g:urIAAOSwsvFhXIQ5&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4FtzKPtGsfEMMEZSDXn5lPvB8fAm6onJEMoA3ni09MmCqdkgikXx6SmZLz7TuF1uhGteY0yW2nfVENUMoK8ilHL4Q6RCcEYdaf4Xv0AG9lTAcJcCc15h6dTKMj5Sx5Jd1aD4rzZOnFloLv%2BHqQ3te6qLoBLHC8FWHBjGzL3p%2FoX2c4iWMxEBTpoq2E%2FSFAzeNhftH2dMeEo2Qa%2Bg3Zpo87UUNRtSJf%2Bg5vCvpGiRNxqoRnwGHUx%2Bnp6icY3CwDtAypRKpla7KPWdNZaG2QjCEOR8H%2BtcP0Y60G7i9IqGVxiO%7Ctkp%3ABFBMwoLHl6ph

You can get them in a variety of colors, and they often come in a two-pack new for 30 dollars.  In addition, they have a sight on the front that the nyko perfect shot lacks.  I say take one of these and create a 3d printed adapter to go inside the gun so it can have a real trigger.   

Of course, there is a much simpler option to get a better trigger.   There are shells out there that arrange the controller in such a way that a nunchuck is used for the grip and you use the z-trigger as the fire button.   This is much better than the mechanical solutions of course, but the z-trigger is a bit mushy for lightgun action and the weight of the wiimote being so far out (because it has to be ahead of the nunchuck) often makes long gameplay sessions tiring.   So I think the previous solution is best for those wanting to level up the stock options.   


As for force-feedback and such... again, we have options.   Of course getting the wiimote rumble to work is trivial.... this is supported in mamehooker and I might be willing to integrate it into troubleshooter 2 directly since it is so easy.   The only problem with it is if you want a solenoid you are going to have to hack in a relay and bring in external power.   Once you do that, you have a wiimote tethered to your cabinet and at that point it really makes little sense to bother hacking the wiimote for outputs.... just use one of Randy's boards or an arduino attached to the cab and then you just have to run power up your tether to power the solenoid.  The software side would be more complicated, but I think that could be helped via a dedicated layout for hooking up devices. Something like:

Output 1 = P1 recoil
Output 2 = P1 motor (for some positional gun games)
Output 3 = P1 LED 1 (usually for indicating the player has a grenade or bomb to fire in positional games)
Output 4 = P1 LED 2 (Green led in T2 and Rev X)
Output 5 = P1 LED 3 (Red led in T2 and Rev X)
Output 6 = P1 Start LED
Output 7 = P1 Coin LED
Output 8 = P2 recoil
...ect....

The software could assume that the outputs are hooked up in this order and thus eliminate the need for a lot of user configuration.  Or that might make it even more complicated, I'm not sure.


As for the physical solenoid itself, this seems to be a good choice:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273905080548?var=573757180843&_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D777008%26algo%3DPERSONAL.TOPIC%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20220705100511%26meid%3D5b3b4b299ac941a7aa67936f04cf25ee%26pid%3D101524%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26itm%3D573757180843%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26algv%3DRecentlyViewedItemsV2%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2380057.c101524.m146925&_trkparms=pageci%3Af2312632-8592-11ed-a319-fe3aa990576e%7Cparentrq%3A51885cb81850aaecb52df242fff6d678%7Ciid%3A1

It seems to retail for around 10 bucks and has two threaded holes for mounting.   This could be mounted to the underside of a gun shell or potentially be put inside the area where the mechanical plunger is normally housed.   It Comes in 5- and 12-volt varieties, making it pc power friendly.  A metal plate for it to bang into and a wire feeding 12 volts to it from a relay in your cab is all that's really needed. 


Anyway these are just thoughts giving me a rough plan of attack for when my stuff comes in.   I would appreciate any comments or suggestions. 



« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 10:24:57 pm by Howard_Casto »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
If you don't mind a bit of soldering, hotmelt and have a remote which you no longer care is functional in it's original form, the Nyko is very hackable.  I suspect other shells are as well.  There are some pretty nice ones coming out of China, but they may not meet the "toy gun" requirements where you live.  It looks like they are doing their best to make them compliant, as they are now available in solid bright colors for places where that might be a requirement.

The Nyko shells come apart quite easily and there is a fair amount of open space inside for playing.  The only slightly tricky part is popping off the grip panel on the side with the screws, as there are a couple more underneath. 

I'm still working out a few details, but the big picture with the Nyko is that forward portion of the trigger mech can be cut off and the original remote trigger can be removed for a handy wiring exit from the remote body, though a drill may still be necessary.  From there, it's just a matter of using some good hotmelt to put your trigger switch of choice in the correct spot and attaching the wires between the PCB and whichever switches you want to be accessible at locations other than the top of the gun.  In most cases, this will be only the main trigger, a reload button, and a secondary fire button.  Any other buttons which might be mapped are fine where they are for 95% of most use cases.  The spring tension on the trigger is nice and only needs a little silicone/white lithium grease to smooth it out.

It would also be necessary to add a means of getting 3vDC to remote.  I opted to add an inexpensive, enclosed battery compartment to the flat on the underside front area.  Surprisingly, it doesn't look too bad there and it's very accessible.  But one could go crazy and build in a rechargeable battery with a tiny buck converter and charging circuit if they wanted to be fancy.  There are even 3v LiFePo CR123A batteries out there with a micro-USB connection for direct charging.  My only concern with these would be capacity, but they would work.   

Another approach for buttons would be to use one of the newer XBOX controllers (or preferably a tiny, compatible BT controller) paired to the PC and holding it in the off-hand for extra functions, provided the app you are using allows for mapping multiple controllers as one.

Doing things this way keeps everything wireless, which is one of the main reasons I like this approach to the lightgun controller problem.  The only hitch at the moment is the somewhat spotty recognition of the buttons in some applications, which is a bit in limbo if not using vJoy (which I prefer not to use due to the extra lag).  One of the emulators I tested would strangely recognize the A and B buttons and the directional pad, but none of the others, and my preference would be to not mess up the function of the directionals.  So, I'm holding off a bit on other permanent buttons until I have a better idea of what might be coming down the pike from the author.

*Edit*  Fusselkroete is aware of the buttons situation in the mouse plugin and already has plans to address it.  His todo list on this is pretty long, but I expect it will be remedied with some time.  He also gave me some better insight on the sliders than I had before.  The reports per second cap can actually increase performance if adjusted properly.  Even very fast systems may benefit from setting this to a lower value, as it places a cap on the frequency of reports sent to vJoy for processing.  i.e. a fast system may still have limited resources allocated to those functions, so it can still be detrimental to overburden them with unnecessary data.  My takeaway on that is to keep the report frequency only as high as is necessary for smooth gameplay, especially if using vJoy to translate the data.  Anything over 60 reports per second probably isn't necessary anyway.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 01:34:30 pm by RandyT »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Here's the thing though.  You might not like using vJoy, but you are going to use vJoy.  Mame will not accept simulated mouse movements at all, full stop.  It MUST be a simulated joystick.   Also a lot of modern (ish) pc gun games support two joysticks out of the box for two player mode but not two mice. 

Personally, I could care less about a wireless solution.  The novelty of not having a tether wears off pretty quickly once you realize it limits you to the wiimotes puny rumble motor for force feedback and having to constantly worry about battery levels.   My thought was to make the tether removable.... wireless if you want it, but honestly, I can't see a scenario where I would need to go full wireless. 

I don't have any problems with hacking up a wiimote personally, but I'm trying to think of solutions that are going to make this as turnkey as possible.   One thing that hacking might help is a solenoid mount.   If the batteries were removed and re-routed (or external power fed in) that would leave a rather large cavity for mounting the solenoid.  Honestly the bottom of a wiimote's pcb is pretty flat except for the b trigger and the battery terminals so removing the bottom of the housing would free up a lot of space.   

I have the nyko perfect shot and honestly, as good as it is, it has issues.   The main one is the handle is too thick... it just feels wrong.   Another thing is that the orange band that holds the wiimote in place tends to break off.   Honestly though all the shells are pretty ok but I'm trying to figure out which one I'm willing to spend my time making an adapter for so others can easily use it.   The one I linked to is cheap and readily available.  I can still make one for the perfect shot since I already have one though. 

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
So what about larger shells for terminator 2 and the like?

I really don't know what to look for but these can be had for around $20.

https://www.halloweencostumes.com/toy-uzi-9mm-machine-gun.html

With this size you could even add a cordless drill battery and keep it wireless with recoil!

it'd be nice to find something this seize that's more wiimote friendly in terms of mounting.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Here's the thing though.  You might not like using vJoy, but you are going to use vJoy.  Mame will not accept simulated mouse movements at all, full stop.  It MUST be a simulated joystick.   Also a lot of modern (ish) pc gun games support two joysticks out of the box for two player mode but not two mice. 

This is of course, mostly correct.  One will always need to deliver the application, or the combination of emulator+game, the input it is looking for.  While vJoy is common and it works, it may not be the best or only means of getting to that point.  And while I personally don't care if any title or method supports 2-player simultaneous use, I understand how important that is for many.  I'd probably have a different opinion if I actually played alongside a skilled player, but I always felt bad when playing alongside less-skilled players because I would usually be stealing their targets to keep from losing my own lives.  Therefore, I tend to play solo.

Quote
Personally, I could care less about a wireless solution.  The novelty of not having a tether wears off pretty quickly once you realize it limits you to the wiimotes puny rumble motor for force feedback and having to constantly worry about battery levels.   My thought was to make the tether removable.... wireless if you want it, but honestly, I can't see a scenario where I would need to go full wireless. 

Nothing wrong with this either.  But personally, as someone who has shot pistols of much larger caliber than a .22, most if not all motors and solenoids are clicky, noisy gimmicks which don't add much to the experience.  The one exception in my opinion is the motor in a game like LA:MachineGuns, which is so large and heavy that it literally shakes the player when shooting.  Of course, they are also mounted to a cabinet.

My monitor is 5' from where I "shoot" and I do find the cable distracting and annoying to manage and store between sessions.  If one has pets or small kids who like to run around, they can also be problem.  Still, if one needs more power for add-ons, there are few practical alternatives.  I've never had issues with cables connecting things like gamepads.  But on something like a gun controller, where the controller is the physical object being manipulated for interaction, a cable just feels wrong.     

Quote
I don't have any problems with hacking up a wiimote personally, but I'm trying to think of solutions that are going to make this as turnkey as possible.

I'm afraid it will never really be "turn-key" as an integrated, all-in-one unit unless one is happy pushing buttons on top of the gun.  Outside of that, the options for relocation are a foot pedal (or two, again probably with wires) or a tiny add-on gaming controller.  At some point, Fusselkroete will probably add simulated off-screen reload, which will help a lot, but still won't eliminate the need for button re-location entirely.   

Quote
I have the nyko perfect shot and honestly, as good as it is, it has issues.   The main one is the handle is too thick... it just feels wrong.   Another thing is that the orange band that holds the wiimote in place tends to break off.

The grip on the Nyko has roughly the same circumference as the GC1 and GC2.  It's thicker, but less deep and somewhat less contoured.  I don't find it awkward to hold.  What does affect the feel more than anything is the "pull" which occurs as the trigger mechanism bottoms out on the remote.  Unfortunately, all shells will exhibit this behavior if they use this type of mechanism, as it offers no over-travel on the trigger.   Again, this is where adding an actual proper switch to the assembly will make a huge difference.

RE: Orange thing

Heh.  That's one thing I forgot about in the disassembly.  That orange part needs to be separated from one of the halves to split them.  It's actually kind of finicky to pop loose without breaking the nub it pivots on, but it's not too bad. If one is going to dedicate a remote to the gun controller and tether it with a cable, it should be possible to provide power through the appropriate pins on the nunchuk pass-through in the shell. So, no need to ever remove it in that configuration.  In that sense, the Nyko is better than those where the port is located at the top section of the gun.

I'm actually working on something which will accommodate just about any "bell or whistle" one would want to put together.  But it's a WIP and I want to wait until I'm sure it's functional before I show it off. :)

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Well like I said, the nyko wands already have the A and B buttons outputted to a set of three contacts below the accessory port (A ground and B respectively).   Three pogo pins installed at the back of the shell could make it a solderless hack.   Something I'm wondering is if wii motion plus is required.  If so that makes a difference on which wiimotes we need.   
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 01:02:44 am by Howard_Casto »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Well like I said, the nyko wands already have the A and B buttons outputted to a set of three contacts below the accessory port (A ground and B respectively).   Three pogo pins installed at the back of the shell could make it a solderless hack.   Something I'm wondering is if wii motion plus is required.  If so that makes a difference on which wiimotes we need.

Well, something still needs to be connected to those pogo pins somehow.  Maybe we have different definitions for "turn-key" :)

There's also the possibility that the camera in those remotes is similar, or maybe even the same as the cheap aftermarket remotes, which either work poorly in this particular application, or possibly not at all.   And even if the Nykos do work as well, they are far less common.  Quite a few unknowns with these, unless you already have one and have tested it.

RE: Motion plus

If you mean with regard to Lichtknarre, I don't believe it is currently supported.  From what I have been able to gather, the remotes with it built-in are incompatible with pretty much all of these enthusiast applications.  I'm surmising that the reason for this is the difference in firmware on those devices. 

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Drill three holes in the shell and glue/epoxy the crimp style pogo pins into said holes that are crimped to wires leading to switches.... seems a lot easier than hacking up the wiimote.   Nyko wiimotes and all third party wiimotes behave the same.   Did some of the testing on my old software via a 3-dollar knockoff as well as the standard version.   I suppose the quality of the camera could be different, but I didn't notice any difference.   Nyko wands are literally the most abundant third party wiimote besides rock candy.   I posted a link to just one of the myriad of sources on ebay.

Supporting wii motion plus wiimotes isn't difficult..... it just requires a different handshake if I remember correctly, and it'll show up like a wiimote with wii motion plus plugged in... did it with my test software years ago.  I figured most of this stuff out years ago, but I needed help with the math to calculate position... asked for help several times and got crickets.   


RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Nyko wiimotes and all third party wiimotes behave the same.   Did some of the testing on my old software via a 3-dollar knockoff as well as the standard version.   I suppose the quality of the camera could be different, but I didn't notice any difference.   Nyko wands are literally the most abundant third party wiimote besides rock candy.   I posted a link to just one of the myriad of sources on ebay.

Howard, just type "nyko wii remote" into Google and click on the reviews in the right panel.  You'll see that there are many complaints about dropped connections and camera accuracy issues.  The same issues have been reported widespread with other 3rd party brands.  The camera modules in the remotes are "smart", and whatever tech magic is in the originals, isn't in the knock-offs.  It's also been reported that the accelerometers are of lower quality and much less sensitive, which, from my understanding, will likely affect accuracy in a major way.  Also, the German lightgun guy did a review of Lichtknarre recently on YT and immediately got a comment from a viewer complaining about his remote constantly dropping the connection when testing the software.  It was a 3rd party remote.

*edit*  I removed some comments about the + enabled version, as some headway appears to have been made out there, either in the MS BT stack or in some of the libraries.  But unless something has changed, Fusselkroete doesn't have one of those units to test with, according to his site, so support for them might take a long back-seat to more pressing concerns.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 01:47:13 pm by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
I still like the idea of a 3D printed shell with a wiimote pcb mounted on edge, or entire wiimote mounted on edge utilizing the nun-chuck connector for trigger and other buttons.
(making progress on my home repairs/remodeling, but it will still be at least a month until I have time to mess around with any projects.)

A couple guns I hadn't seen before came up while I was searching for a pic of something else.
Both from 10+ years ago and not easy to find, but worth looking at.  Maybe some Chinese company still has the molds or are using them for some other system.

Scorpion VII - One of the posts I came across said the connection would drop when dolphin was launched.


Possibly better quality, the Penguin United Crossfire Remote Pistol




RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I still like the idea of a 3D printed shell with a wiimote pcb mounted on edge, or entire wiimote mounted on edge utilizing the nun-chuck connector for trigger and other buttons.

That would be a good solution, so long as the monitor isn't too large.  The vertical and horizontal FOV of the camera is supposedly different by about 10 degrees, so using it sideways could require greater distance from the monitor to get good accuracy.  Maybe paired with a wide angle lens.

But I don't think I could see myself using the trigger in the off hand.  It's weird enough holding a miniature BT game controller for the reload function (which I do currently) but it's better than the alternative.

*edit*  Maybe I misunderstood the nunchuk comment there.  It may be possible to incorporate one into a grip, so long as Lichtknarre gets the button reporting under control.  Currently, I haven't been able to get pretty much anything other than the test area in Lichtknarre to recognize them, but I haven't tried it with vJoy....maybe they work in there.  This arrangement (with the remote in normal orientation) is used in the Cabelas "shotgun" shell, so it could be an approach to take with some cable management somehow.  That said, I was never thrilled with the "button as a trigger" with that unit, but I'm picky :)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 04:06:26 pm by RandyT »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Yeah, was thinking of the nunchuck connection as an interface for trigger and other buttons incorporated into the grip.  Just as in interface so hacking the wiimote would not be required.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
It's certainly an option.   Nunchucks are far cheaper and are easier to hack up.  I like those guns you linked to but unfortunately you can't buy them anymore.   I've looked so if I'm missing something please tell me.   Shells seem to be the only things that are readily available.   In terms of gutting the wiimote, the pcb would need to be in the original orientation.  I mean all the positional data would be off and it'd be a pain in the ass to correct.   The thought had occurred to me though, so I went on the fleabay looking for arcade shells.   Eh they are a bit pricey.   Not sure why as most are junk, but it'd get things up into the "it's so expensive you might as well try one of the diy solutions" category.   

I've been looking at the aliens extermination guns on aliexpress.   They'd be good shells for a larger gun setup but the shipping on even the shells is insane.   It's a shame as they'd make terrific positional gun controllers.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
In terms of gutting the wiimote, the pcb would need to be in the original orientation.  I mean all the positional data would be off and it'd be a pain in the ass to correct.

I honestly don't believe it would be that difficult to allow alternative orientations. Each frame of beacon data would just need to be normalized (due to the way the camera scans for them) and the appropriate offset direction applied, based on the selected orientation.  The only place it could get tricky is the accelerometer.  If it happens to work better in the normal orientation, then it may not be ideal to use a different one than specified by the manufacturer.  But even this seems unlikely.

If the tracker plugin framework is open-sourced, which it probably will be at some point, this type of change could even be implemented without touching the main code.  Lots of possibilities at that point.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
I'm referring to the accelerometers.   Any math used to take their data and improve position calculations would be off and it'd take a re-write to fix assuming now that the wiimote's resting position would be on it's side.   Or we could just not be jerks and use it in the proper orientation.   

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I'm referring to the accelerometers.   Any math used to take their data and improve position calculations would be off and it'd take a re-write to fix assuming now that the wiimote's resting position would be on it's side.   Or we could just not be jerks and use it in the proper orientation.   

The accelerometer data is most likely translated into degrees and everything is based on offsets and directions from a "normal" reference.  Where complications could arise would be if the remote itself already does orientation corrections internally.  If that's the case, then it may be difficult to predict how it reacts to different usage scenarios.

And as for the "jerk" comment, you'll probably find yourself in that camp once you get beyond the theory phase and start trying to do some actual integration into existing shells.  The camera hangs below the pcb in it's normal orientation, which makes it very unfriendly to mounting in any shell where the barrel is close to top of the gun, as most all of them are.  Not a game-ender for some shells, if you don't mind a little cutting of plastics, but if alternate orientations were possible to implement, it would open up a lot more possibilities for integration.  If not, it is what it is.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Not sure what you aren't getting here.   There are three axis of motion, X, Y and Z.... if you put the pcb on it's side you just swapped X for Y and thus any code as to account for that.   Also each axis on a wiimote has different practical limits..... in theory acceleration is read the same on all three but in practice I believe Y axis has a slightly larger threshold than X.   These are issues that can be eliminated by simply putting the wiimote in the proper orientation.  I mean later on it would be something to look into but at the moment getting a working, accurate solution that others can replicate should be a priority.   

In other news I've started compiling a rather lengthy shopping list for this project.   I'll post it later this evening when I get a chance.   

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
My leds and lenses came in today.   Hopefully I can get a test rig up and running tomorrow.   

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Not sure what you aren't getting here.   There are three axis of motion, X, Y and Z.... if you put the pcb on it's side you just swapped X for Y and thus any code as to account for that.

I assure you that I get it just fine :)  That data needs to be processed, regardless of the "normal" orientation, so the PC can make sense of it.  Changing the orientation is simply changing the manner in which it is processed.  It's really no different than if I were to alter the code in a trackball interface to make the axes work whichever way I please so a trackball can be installed in a non-standard orientation.  It's all relative.

Now, if there are issues with the accelerometer in different orientations, which can't be accounted for with code, then yes, it's a non-starter.  But theoretically, based on how they work, it shouldn't care.

BTW, I actually found a way to get HOTD:Remake (and Big Buck Hunter: Arcade, and probably some other Steam games) to work with the mouse plugin.  But it's more of an odd hardware exploit than a fix, so it's not really useful, other than perhaps to help identify why these aren't working at the moment.  I sent the info to Fusselkroete to see if it means anything to him...


Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Changing the subject gracefully.   Here's a rough list of stuff I want to buy to build some guns.... one set in the more standard pistol style and one in an overkill Operation Wolf/T2/Rev X style.

First off solenoids for the recoil.   Here's what I found for the big guns:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804442738525.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.b2ce38dacAUmqY&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US

These are the replacement solenoids they sell for the Aliens Extermination guns.   They should be a good choice as they are relatively inexpensive and have been proven to work as a rapid-fire recoil in commercial guns.  I actually thought finding one for the bigger guns would be harder.   

This one should be a good choice for the smaller ones:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273905080548?var=573757180845

Not used in any commercial guns but they are small enough to fit into the handle of most wiimote pistol shells with room left over for the trigger switch.   Originally, I thought a 12v version would be the way to go but since the alien coils are 24volts anyway, might as well go with the beefier ones.   

Speaking of 24 volts......

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832731286018.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.b2ce38dacAUmqY&mp=1&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US

I'm thinking a cheap wall wart at 24v 5A should work fine.   Not sure if I should go with this or a more traditional power supply.   Ultimately, I'd like to be able to supply power to the wiimotes so maybe a different approach is in order.   

To trigger the coils I'm thinking something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225300679603?var=524280063022

This is one of those rare instances where I'm willing to pay a little extra for convenance.  Triggers by an avr's working voltage, it'll work active low for avrs and active high, in case you want to tap into the wiimotes outputs directly in a solderless solution, for under 3 bucks.   Yes please.   These are glorious times we live in for tinkerers.   


Now shells are obviously the problem.   For the pistols a wiimote shell will do for now.... I might fancy one up with some 3d-printed add-ons.   The big guns are a bit more challenging.  Seeing as how we need a great big machine gun to handle a bunch of buttons and a solenoid an Uzi seems like the logical choice.   You can find these NOS all over ebay.....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374109263408

I figure it's a big plastic rectangle, so it'd be easy to mount a wiimote inside... just cut off the barrel, make the wiimote stick out a bit and then take some pipe and/or 3d print and over-sized barrel to go around the wiimote (or a decased pcb).   Hell the Operation Wolf series uses a very similar style of Uzi.  The only problem is I don't think these are full-sized.   There's a non-water gun version costume shops sell, but I don't think it's any bigger.   I've found some older toy Uzi's on ebay that seem to be a larger size, but they are hit and miss and it's hard to find a matching set.   Any help on this would greatly be appreciated.   I know gun regulations make it hard to find realistic toy guns these days but I find it hard to believe that here in 'merica somebody doesn't sell a fully accurate toy Uzi in blaze orange or something.   

Anyway, I'm just sharing as I go in case anyone wants to follow along.   As I find good buttons and ect I'll post them.   
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 09:36:32 pm by Howard_Casto »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
In terms of an Uzi shell I did find these things:

https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Blaster-Splatter-Outdoor-Shooting/dp/B09WJ9LDTD/ref=sr_1_293?crid=290R42HZFZF13&keywords=toy+uzi&qid=1672539856&sprefix=toy+uzi%2Caps%2C94&sr=8-293


Slightly more expensive and obviously hideous in color, but they are much sturdier, already have a gigantic barrel and run on what looks like a 2.6v usb rechargable lipo that could be re-purposed to power the wiimote.   The laser pointer and flip out stock are a nice bonus as well.   My only concern is how difficult it'd be to gut.   I'm sure they have more complex innards than a squirt gun.   

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
This one looks similar, so it might give you an idea as to what you'd run into:

 

Nice find on the mongo solenoid.  That one looks formidable enough to give a good kick.  Just a couple of suggestions though.  Don't skimp on the power supply and go bigger than you think you will need, even for the smaller ones.  A lot of those cheap supplies don't even come close to what they are supposed to be rated for, and pop as soon as the current draw goes above about half.

And on the driver, a relay might not be the best choice.  In a gun, it's going to get cycled a lot and if those contacts spark at all, it won't be long before they get carbonized, burn up, or unrelated to that, the mechanical parts give out. 

So long as the solenoid pulls less than 5A and uses less than 24v (according to the specs) and you add a heatsink, this could work and it might even be smaller:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134332298224




BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
My leds and lenses came in today.   Hopefully I can get a test rig up and running tomorrow.
Sweet.


Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Heh, I'm out of wire of all things.   I'll go pick up some cheap speaker wire tomorrow at walmart.   I don't know if I'll get time to rig something up though. 

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
This one looks similar, so it might give you an idea as to what you'd run into:

 

Nice find on the mongo solenoid.  That one looks formidable enough to give a good kick.  Just a couple of suggestions though.  Don't skimp on the power supply and go bigger than you think you will need, even for the smaller ones.  A lot of those cheap supplies don't even come close to what they are supposed to be rated for, and pop as soon as the current draw goes above about half.

And on the driver, a relay might not be the best choice.  In a gun, it's going to get cycled a lot and if those contacts spark at all, it won't be long before they get carbonized, burn up, or unrelated to that, the mechanical parts give out. 

So long as the solenoid pulls less than 5A and uses less than 24v (according to the specs) and you add a heatsink, this could work and it might even be smaller:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134332298224

Picked up some wire this evening but I was dog tired by the time I got home.  Oh well, it'll keep till later.  Actually the inside of that gun looks more ideal than I thought it'd be.   All the splatter parts seem to be housed inside its own inner shell and the cavity it leaves behind looks suspiciously wiimote shaped.  The barrel length it has would be almost perfect with a wide angle lense stuck to the front of the wiimote.  There are actually a lot of these splatter ball guns on Amazon for reasonable prices.... I feel like there are more than a few good options out there.   I've saw a few with an optional secondary handle that bolts where the sight is and that'd be good for some of the later games like aliens extermination which have a rocket/bomb button AND a second trigger on the front handle for a flame thrower.   Yeah a mosfet might be the way to go, I'm just unfamiliar with their usage when it comes to active high vs active low.  I wouldn't think it would make much difference considering what they do.   

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Looks like this one will give you some good info if you decide to go that way:



It looks like they were forward-looking enough to leave space when they designed the module, to allow it to bend forward so a heatsink can be added and not be super tall.  It may not heat up too much with short pulses, but some testing would certainly be necessary to make sure it can handle that momentary bit of high current over and over.  Might also be a good idea to add some holes over where it's mounted to let any heat escape.

That's the only thing about re-purposing shells without good dimensions...you have to decide whether you want to pay that much for a water bead blaster on the chance that it doesn't fit.  I guess you could always use it to chase raccoons out of your garbage cans :)

But I thought exactly the same thing when I saw it.  Nice and modular guts and it looks like a good candidate if it's wide enough.  If it is, then the plastic ribs won't be a big deal to trim out if need be. 

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Eh I'm sure I could find 30 dollars worth of entertainment out of it and if for some reason it arrived and it didn't look like it would work amazon has an excellent return policy.   

Thanks for the link btw, that's helpful. 

Anyway, I think the shell should be wide enough.   



If you skip to around 2:50 it shows a shot of a guy putting the battery pack in there and it fits with about a quarter of an inch on each side.   Since a wiimote is essentially the same width as a pair of AAs that should leave enough room and then some.  7.4 volts btw.... not sure what that would be useful for.   It should be ok length wise as well.   The trigger area is quite low on the build and even if I had to cut away some of the structure, I think there would still be enough room to keep it intact. 

Anyway I need to wire up a test rig this weekend and make sure I can get outputs working while using the software and I'll go from there.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
If you skip to around 2:50 it shows a shot of a guy putting the battery pack in there and it fits with about a quarter of an inch on each side.   Since a wiimote is essentially the same width as a pair of AAs that should leave enough room and then some.

If anything, I think it will either be perfect, or just shy of workable.  If you look about a minute later at the barrel view, you can see that the upper section is narrower than where the batteries sit.  Kinda getting the same vibe for the barrel diameter and the WA lens. :-\
 
Quote
7.4 volts btw.... not sure what that would be useful for.   It should be ok length wise as well.   The trigger area is quite low on the build and even if I had to cut away some of the structure, I think there would still be enough room to keep it intact. 

I had a feeling they were AA type Li-Ions.  When fully charged, they will be as high as 8.2v.  I actually have some Li-Ions in that form-factor which are regulated down internally to the normal 1.5v per.  They last a nice long time, even with the internal circuitry taking up space.  Might be a good candidate for an internal (to the gun, not the battery :) ) regulator, if there's enough room for one.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2023, 12:36:35 pm by RandyT »

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Last login:Today at 04:40:51 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes

I had a feeling they were AA type Li-Ions.  When fully charged, they will be as high as 8.2v.  I actually have some Li-Ions in that form-factor which are regulated down internally to the normal 1.5v per.  They last a nice long time, even with the internal circuitry taking up space.  Might be a good candidate for an internal regulator, if there's enough room for one.

that would be a 14500 battery. essentially a small version of an 18650. i have some small garden lights that use one of those instead of 2x AA batts.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
that would be a 14500 battery. essentially a small version of an 18650. i have some small garden lights that use one of those instead of 2x AA batts.

They have their place in very specific circumstances like those, where the device was designed specifically with them in mind.  But I've always wondered how many devices ended up in the landfill due to those things.  Even using one to replace two normal AA's stuffs about 40% more voltage into a device than it would be expecting when fully charged, which usually means opening the gates for magic smoke and tears to escape. 

I've heard tales that a standard silicon diode, in series with a schottky diode can be enough to bring the voltage of a standard 3.7v Li-Ion down into usable range.  This is based on a .6-.7v voltage drop of the silicon diode and the .3-.4 drop of the schottky.  But it's not the best way to do it, as there are some possibilities for it to not work as expected and cook what you are powering.  It also doesn't make a lot of sense now that very cheap and surprisingly decent regulators are easy to find.

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Last login:Today at 04:40:51 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
I've heard tales that a standard silicon diode, in series with a schottky diode can be enough to bring the voltage of a standard 3.7v Li-Ion down into usable range.  This is based on a .6-.7v voltage drop of the silicon diode and the .3-.4 drop of the schottky.  But it's not the best way to do it, as there are some possibilities for it to not work as expected and cook what you are powering.  It also doesn't make a lot of sense now that very cheap and surprisingly decent regulators are easy to find.

ahh, the ol' dirty sanchez voltage regulation.

Dirty Sanchez: i want 12 volts
Car: here's 14 volts
Dirty Sanchez: here's diodes used improperly to drop that down to 12
Car: But, what about when i'm not running?!
Dirty Sanchez: not my problem.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
So I did a bit more research on the nyko wand and it's "trans-port technology" tonight after I saw an article where they mentioned that rumble could also be passed along to a nyko nunchuck.   Turns out, nope it's just exposed pins like I originally thought.  Three contact areas are exposed below the standard wii expansion port for A, B and ground respectively.   So what about rumble?   Well, nyko got sneaky.

Observe this pic of their kama controller:




See those two contacts on what would normally be part of the ground plane on the connector?  Yeah that's rumble out.   

Honestly, I'm not sure how useful any of this info is.   The exposed A and B pins might, but to access the rumble you'd really need a nyko kama controller cable, and at that point you might as well just hack the wiimote since you'll be hacking the kama anyway.  It needs documented though as all the data on these controllers that used to be one the web seems to have disappeared.  I'm sure glad I've already wrote a test program that can read every wii accessory I could get my hands on so I'm not guessing on the protocols.   These wands are cheap enough so I'll probably pick up at least one to see what I can find out. 

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I was finally able to spend some time doing a proper test of the "fish-eye" lens.  And as long as I was making an adapter for the lens, I figured I might as well make the "Perfect Shot" more perfect for sight accurate use as well.  It's quite a bit better now than stock ;)

Near as I can tell, the alignment of the lens is right on.  After calibration, things track nice and straight in the center of the screen and show similar curvature distortion on both the top and bottom, so that's a good sign.

So, does it work?  Well, it does...but not without a few caveats. The first one is the obvious distortion issue.  The lens will completely screw up the calibration and might make it difficult to use the wizards.  This is to be expected, as the lens will make the ratios look a little off.  Manual calibration isn't too difficult if that's what needs to be done.  If enough people use this kind of lens (and the author happens to be one of those people :) ) we may see some built-in correction at some point.

Toward the central area of the screen, I didn't notice much of an issue, if any.  The cursor seemed a bit jumpy, but I'll cover that later in. As far as accuracy goes, there really isn't much drift until you get toward the edges of the screen.  It's not huge, but it's likely enough to adversely affect performance for a really demanding title like Point Blank.  But VC and HOTD:R seemed to play perfectly fine. 

In fact, in the first scene of VC, I was able to hit 95% accuracy on the first test and where I missed I knew it was something I did.  And that brings me to a serious benefit of using the lens: Distance.  This add-on allowed me to be closer than half of the distance I would otherwise need to be at.  If I didn't know that these games were meant to have players this close to the screen, I'd have felt like I was cheating.  It makes that much of a difference.  My CRT is 37" diagonal, but there is a wide, angled bezel around the tube, so it's more like 43" based on where the LEDs needed to be.  Even with a screen that large, 24 to 30" seemed to be the sweet spot.  I haven't tested with anything smaller, but what I have seen leads me to believe that just over a foot would be doable on a typically sized 4:3 arcade monitor.

Now for what could be the biggest issue for some, at least those who have larger screens.  LED beacon brightness.  There's no such thing as 100% transmissive lens, and as the size gets smaller, and the lens system gets cheaper, the more that transmission gets reduced.  This means that there is a smaller zone the gun must be in to work, as too far away means not enough energy from the LEDs, but too close, and the pattern gets lost.  At first, I thought it was something which might be addressed by angling the LEDs, but even positioning the muzzle directly on-axis with one of them seemed to have no effect on the ability of the system to pick it up, past a certain distance, even with the sensitivity cranked to maximum.  I also noticed a bit more jitter from the cursor, likely due to the reduced brightness.  I was able to effectively make use of the "bad LED" and smoothing modes to minimize a lot of this, which normally isn't necessary without the lens.  I may completely remove the IR filter to see if this has any positive effect, but probably not right away.

At the end, it's a bit of a mixed bag.  If absolute accuracy is important to you, you may want to skip the lens, wait for the curvature corrections in the software or maybe try an intermediate power to see if it has less distortion.  But if you tend to play the standard fare and want more of a "real light gun" experience where distance is concerned, I would give it try.  I didn't find it so bad that I immediately removed it, so that probably says something.

*Edit*

Did a little more testing with a cell cam and the fish-eye.  I think the FE may have some even larger issues.  With a regular camera, there seems to be quite a bit of internal reflection and loss of focus at the edges, both of which could be causing some major problems.  I think I'm going to downshift and try out the less extreme wide-angle lens.  Some simple testing has showed that this has the potential to be nearly as as good distance-wise, but with less negatives.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2023, 01:49:10 pm by RandyT »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Part 2:

The standard wide-angle lens is much better.  Still gets closer by an arm's length, not jittery, better accuracy than the fish-eye and no apparent issues with the ability of the system to pick up the LEDs at greater distance.  It's also smaller, so that could help in some build-related situations.

There is still some curvature distortion at the corners, which will mean an occasional miss in those areas, but really not bad.  With it, I was able to get through the intermediate (yellow) ladder of Point Blank with one continue and still had 3 lives left at the end.  So definitely a decent option to get closer to the screen. 

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
This is just an idea off the top of my head but wouldn't the easiest way to implement a fix for the distortion be a distortion lookup table?  I think the wiimote uses a 1024 by 1024 "image", so have a 1024 by 1024 array and with each ir coordinate look up that array coordinate to get a pre-calculated correction of where that point really is sans-distortion.   I'm sure the distortion amount is documented for various lens specs and if not, it'd be possible to take two pictures on a tripod, one with an unmolested image (proboably of a grid) and then one using the clip-on lens to determine where each point in the grid lines end up after the lens.   

I'm not sure how viable that method is but, in my mind, it would require the least amount of processing time, so it'd reduce lag as opposed to correcting on the fly.   

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
This is just an idea off the top of my head but wouldn't the easiest way to implement a fix for the distortion be a distortion lookup table?  I think the wiimote uses a 1024 by 1024 "image", so have a 1024 by 1024 array and with each ir coordinate look up that array coordinate to get a pre-calculated correction of where that point really is sans-distortion.   I'm sure the distortion amount is documented for various lens specs and if not, it'd be possible to take two pictures on a tripod, one with an unmolested image (proboably of a grid) and then one using the clip-on lens to determine where each point in the grid lines end up after the lens.

This is sort of how lens correction works for VR.  The lens distortion is profiled, and an inverse shape is created upon which the image is mapped.  This neutralizes the curve, but the lower resolution where there is image compression from the distortion, is not changed. 

A good graphics card is required to do this for VR, but in this case, we're just looking at up to 4 data points.  So yes, I think that is a viable approach.   A lower resolution data table of X and Y offsets within a zone may be able to get it close enough, without needing to map every pixel.  I can almost see imaginary concentric circles, getting tighter as they reach the edge, to create the zones.

*Edit*  Better yet, just profile the lens and feed that information to OpenCV and let it figure it out with the "undistort" function :)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 09:52:10 pm by RandyT »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
So I had a few minutes and I played around with the software and mamehooker to see how well they get along.  Everything seems to work ok!   Obviously, you'll have to turn off the rumble feature in lichtknarre but rumble and leds can be controlled fully by mamehooker which means any external program should be able to control them as well.  I can't do a full test yet (haven't built my led harness) but I fired up both terminator 2 and rev x, the two games that pulse gun recoil faster than any other, and the humble wiimote seems to keep up just fine.   So with that confirmed, a totally wireless pistol at least, seem feasible. 

Keeping that in mind I might be willing to experiment with the hardware side of things a little.   So in terms of a battery and step-down solution, what do you guys think would work to keep... let's say a 5 volt solenoid and wiimote powered for a reasonably long gameplay session?   I'm just looking for ideas.  I think a pistol with recoil that you can turn off or switch back to the rumble motor to save power might be a pretty nice bit of hardware.

In other news I couldn't resist, and the price started to go up, so I bought one of those uzis.   It's supposed to come in thursday.  I still need to buy the sacrificial wiimotes, mosfets, power supply and solenoids but one thing at a time.   

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Good news on the Mamehooker stuff working!

On the battery pack, you'll probably need to do some testing with a meter or a bench supply and do some math. 

Basically, the formula (I think...double check my work):

(3600 / [Solenoid Pulse Time in Seconds]) / (Voltage x [Average Solenoid Current Over Pulse Duration])

will give you a rough idea as to number of actuations to expect per Watt-Hour.  For example;

If the solenoid operates from 5v and consumes 2 amps on average when actuated, and the pulse duration is .5 seconds, the formula would look like this:

(3600 /.5) / (5 x 2) =720 actuations per Watt-Hour

So, you would need to decide how many times you want to be able to fire per session, and plug in accurate numbers for the power used by your solenoid.  Of course, it would be less than that as heat starts to kick in, so you probably would want to go a little larger than the answer you come up with.  Then do the same with the remote and add that to the equation, accounting for losses from whatever regulation method you decide on.

*Edit* 

Also make sure that whatever battery you choose is able to deliver the instantaneous current levels you require on a repeated basis.  Some Li-Ions will heat up and can do bad things if you try pulling more than what they are rated to deliver.  And I would also be sure to correctly install a snubbing diode on the solenoid to deal with the collapsing magnetic field, otherwise any electronics on the same supply as the solenoid could be short-lived.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 11:56:56 pm by RandyT »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Sounds like I've got homework this weekend.   I'm wondering if it'd be more efficient if the wiimote used a separate battery pack from the solenoid to eliminate the need for power regulation.   I've got to think stepping it down would wear on the power reserves a little.   

My uzi came in.  For only 30 bucks I'm rather amazed at how nice it is.   The plastic isn't arcade quality or anything, but it is very sturdy.  The trigger is a nice microswitch and it feels really smooth.   It's a little on the small side compared to a T2 gun or anything like that, but I think for something you'll be holding up your hand it's about right as anything else would get heavy.  There are rails on the top and bottom of the gun and I plan to make use of the bottom one for a removable grip for those rare games like aliens extermination that have three fire buttons.  The size is about perfect to house a wiimote with the upper chamber having just barely enough room width and height wise. There might be enough space for some foam to hold it snuggly or perhaps some 3d printed rails like the ones inside the nyko perfect shot.   I'll most likely have to remove the barrel though and replace it with something shorter.  Not by much though.  The thing came with like 50,000 balls so I'm going to try and go through them all before I tear it apart.   

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Ugh... never start a project around Chinese new year.   All the solenoids on fleabay and aliexpress won't arrive until mid-February.   I managed to find a decent 6v one at harfington.com.

https://www.harfington.com/products/p-1002575

Since I'm using the gel blasters as shells anyway, the plan is to take the 7.5v battery pack from those and use it to power these solenoids in the pistols.  7.5v should be within the tolerances of the solenoids, especially since they'll never be on for more than a split second at a time. The wiimote itself will power from a separate power pack.  I really don't have a clue how many times one would fire in the typical non-machine gun, light gun game so I guess this is a try it and find out deal.   

As for the machine gun solenoids, I'm looking for an alternative that I can actually get delivered before the month is out.   I'll have to scour through some arcade manuals to figure out the values.  It'd be nice to find 12v alternatives as well.  24v would make it difficult to find a cheap battery pack but 12v should be doable. 

The beauty of those values is that they can both be powered with an old pc power supply.   12v obviously but if I recall 7v can be accessed via a combination of the 12, 5, and gnd lines of a pc power connector.  Can't remember the wiring but I can look it up.   

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I really don't have a clue how many times one would fire in the typical non-machine gun, light gun game so I guess this is a try it and find out deal.   

Based on a typical playthrough of VC2, it wouldn't be difficult to fire off a couple thousand shots or more during the course of the entire game.  The faster, "splatter shooters" like HOTD, I imagine could be even higher.  For a ball-park reference, a couple of 18650 Li-Ions rated at a real 2500ma, wired in series for ~8v when fully charged, would get you around 20whrs.

The 14500 types, however, are reported to have a MAXIMUM real capacity of around 750ma for the best of them, which means the ones in your gun are probably around 500ma.  So, a rough guess would put those at about 4whrs, or most likely, not enough to get through even one play-through of VC2.

To get the juice you need for a decent solenoid, I would probably consider a hybrid "wireless" approach.  i.e. something like a fanny-pack battery, with a short plug-in wire to supply the power to the gun.  That way, the battery could be pretty large, and you would still be untethered to any fixed appliances.

Other than that, I think a couple of good 18650's would be the bare minimum useful configuration, with 4 in a 2S2P configuration being much better.   But this would require a pretty good-sized gun shell to accommodate.

*edit* This would be awesome, but expensive... and heavy (4.5lbs), considering it uses a Lead-Acid battery :)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 01:51:16 pm by RandyT »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Yeah if I've gotta wear some idiotic backpack I might as well just go back to a tether.  I don't think the solenoid needs to be particularly powerful on pistol guns.... the ones in the arcade aren't very strong.   

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Last login:Today at 04:40:51 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
3d print yourself some "magazines" with lithium batteries in them. chop a hole in the handle of your gun and BAM! RELOAD!

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Yeah I'm not worried about it.   Wireless would be great but I'm not opposed to wired.   I'm just playing around with what we can do to kind of help others if they want to go this route.   I'm in a holding pattern atm.   My mosfet boards came in but I'm still waiting on the solenoids.  Probably need to go ahead and order the big boys from aliexpress as well since I couldn't find a comparable alternative.   

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
So I opened up the uzi today just to see what I'd be working with.  I compared it to a generic wiimote I had lying around with the black plastic removed from the front so I could see exactly where the sensor lands.  There are some vertical slats in the area where the wiimote would go but they are thin, and you can probably remove them with a hobby knife without much effort.   The cavity itself is exactly as wide as a wiimote, I mean exactly.  Like if you closed it it'd keep the wiimote from moving but wouldn't bulge the plastic exactly.   The height of that upper cavity is almost exactly as high as a wiimote as well with maybe an 1/8th of an inch or so wiggle room.   The length of the wiimote goes from the front of the shell to just past the upper middle screw.  I think that screw post could be kept in place by nipping away at the wiimote shell, but I think the one in front towards the barrel would have to be removed.   The shell has 7 screws holding it together as well as the barrel, so I think it'd still close well without it.  So all in all everything looks good. 

The only problem is the barrel.    If installed as described, I don't think the sensor lines up with the barrel perfectly in the vertical orientation.   Regardless of that the barrel is too long even with lenses in place so it'll have to be shortened.  So, either I de-case the wiimote to get more vertical wiggle room, or I cut the barrel off the front and reposition it.   Neither of which seems particularly difficult. The strap holder behind the barrel tip would cover up any ugliness from moving the barrel or if I go the decase route I could cut a slit in those vertical slats, and it'd hold the wiimote pcb in place.  All of this is going by the knock-offs position though.   I have a nyko wand and the real deal coming in this weekend.  I'll remove the front plastic from them to make sure they all have the same vertical alignment.   

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
I pulled out one of the mosfet modules to test it via 4 AAs (6 volts).   It fired the gearbox that came with the gun via the 7.5v battery pack just fine, which makes sense of course.   I guess I'm just waiting on parts.   :angry:

I'll probably wire up my led harness this weekend.  At least I can test my stock wiimotes to get an idea of distance and how the lenses are going to help in that regard.   

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...


I'll probably wire up my led harness this weekend.  At least I can test my stock wiimotes to get an idea of distance and how the lenses are going to help in that regard.

Woohoo!

Getting the placement and offsets perfected is a PITA, but you only need to do it once.

I hope you are as impressed with the accuracy and distance as I am.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
So my test wiimotes came in.   The nintendo branded one naturally works just fine.   I can't get the nyko one to sync.   I think the issue lies in the length of time it takes a wiimote to sync on the pc.   With a real wiimote you can continue to hold down 1 and 2 and the wiimote will keep trying to sync (it usually repeats the cycle at least once) but with the nyko wand you only get one sync attempt.   If anyone knows a solution let me know.  It's a same since these are usually cheaper and the exposed pins make them easier to hack

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Try right clicking on the little Bluetooth icon in your taskbar area to get the sub-menu, and then select "Join a Personal Area Network".   Then add the device from the screen which opens up.  It might work better and it won't ask for a passcode.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
So my test wiimotes came in.   The nintendo branded one naturally works just fine.   I can't get the nyko one to sync.   I think the issue lies in the length of time it takes a wiimote to sync on the pc.   With a real wiimote you can continue to hold down 1 and 2 and the wiimote will keep trying to sync (it usually repeats the cycle at least once) but with the nyko wand you only get one sync attempt.   If anyone knows a solution let me know.  It's a same since these are usually cheaper and the exposed pins make them easier to hack

Pressing and releasing the buttons on my third party guns seemed to work a lot better than holding them down.
Not sure if it's relevant, but worth a try.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Yeah tried both suggestions and they didn't work.   I'm already on to the next problem.  It turns out the wiimote doesn't use the full 3 volts to power the rumble motor.   Since the mosfet modules need at least 3v to work (actually 3.3v but 3v should be within tolerances) it'll light up but the signal isn't strong enough to trigger the higher voltage.   Other than using an external avr to trigger the module I can't think of a way to make this work.   I'm open to suggestions. 

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
So on a more positive note:

The uzi shell is about perfect.  As you can see from the pics the wiimote fits with minimal cutting.  The black thing in the front is actually the lens, so yeah that is about perfect as well.  The plan is to hack the barrel off and just have the wide-angle lens as the barrel since they are so similar in length and width.   The only hiccup is that little rectangular indent on the side of the shell without the wiimote in it.   The Shell still closes but it throws the left and right alignment of the wiimote off a bit.   I'll just remove some plastic from the shell.   The hole from the barrel is just the least bit too large to screw the lens into so what I might do is epoxy a piece of plastic on the inside and drill a new, smaller hole so it'll screw in.   

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Btw open the images in a new tab.   The forum is screwing the aspect ratio up again.

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I'll be the guinea pig and test 4 point on a 65" from 7 feet away using a set of 4-3 cluster lower power LED strip sold from some gun4ir vendor.  Chinese new year and lots of 10 qty for the high power solution would cost the same and will take until March on snail mail.  Gun4IR vendor promotes it as high power and high angle but they look like regular ol' bread board LEDs.

Best case scenario, they work fine without using Lichtknarre's "bad LED mode" (too high of latency imo) and folks without much DIY can easily get into the light gun space.  Worst case, I sell the strip at half on ebay and wire the LEDs later on.

Side note: the LED strip has a clone on Aliexpress $20 bucks cheaper which makes it even more appealing for prebuilt materials.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 11:41:55 am by ZTylerDurden717 »

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Separately--a ---smurfing--- tripod to calibrate a light gun? You gen-Xer's already getting the shakes?  :laugh2:

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Separately--a ---smurfing--- tripod to calibrate a light gun? You gen-Xer's already getting the shakes?  :laugh2:

You don't know the half of it.....but you will :)

I won't speak for BadMouth, but I think the issue may have been that the Walther gun perhaps has a different lens, probably with a bit of wide angle enhancement.  I can tell you from experience that the wide-angle lenses can make using the built-in calibration wizard more challenging, sometimes allowing only a tiny window with the gun at a specific angle where the software is satisfied and will allow the user to continue.  The software was designed with the simple stock remote in mind, so anything extra/different is outside of what it is expecting.  I also found that the numbers weren't really close with an add-on lens, so hand tweaking is probably easier and more accurate in that case.

I was curious about those LED assemblies as well.  But I think it's going to be tough to beat the modules BadMouth dug up, especially for large displays.  A pre-wired solution using these would be the ideal solution.  They seem to be usable at 10' or better (without an add-on lens) and we aren't even using them at full output.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Separately--a ---smurfing--- tripod to calibrate a light gun? You gen-Xer's already getting the shakes?  :laugh2:

Not yet, but I'm heading downhill pretty fast.
I wanted them calibrated as good as possible to remove that as a factor when judging the accuracy.
They were indeed a PITA to keep aligned. 
I also wanted it calibrated as close as possible to the monitor which meant both side LEDs are right on the edge of both being viewable.


I am glad another person is giving it a try.   :cheers:
I'd really like to see someone get it all set up with 2 players, Troubleshooter/Demulshooter, & integrated into a front end to show that it works.
I was on that path, but am currently sidetracked by an emergency kitchen remodel.
(If I don't dedicate 100%  of my free time to it, it will drag on forever.)

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Well that's the plan for me, I wanted to start a thread once I get the hardware sorted and just post configs as I go.   Like yourself I'm having a hard time finding free time.   I never did get my sensor bar soldered last weekend.  Btw you are soldering that up in a series right?  That'd make it roughly four AAs.  I think I'll use battery power until I get my power supply situation mapped out.  The mini solenoids for the pistols came in.   They are kind of puny but I'll still give them a shot.  As for those mosfets, apparently the most popular module on ebay doesn't actually do what it claims.  I finally found a reddit article where it states that while 3.3v will trigger the high side it only does so at about 25% and it takes a full 10 volts to get it fully open.   So I'll order new kit this weekend along with my 24v solenoids for the uzis and a power supply beefy enough to run all this mess.   

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Ok so I'm about to order another round of parts so I got the old multi-meter out to confirm some things.   The rumble motor on the wiimote indeed puts out 3.3 volts, and since that's logic level most mosfets should work with it, just not the crappy one I bought.   The leds, while still on the board seem to draw around 2.7 volts.   My guess is there's a resistor somewhere stepping that down, but honestly, I can't think of what you'd want to use it for besides powering leds.   I intend to use the led outputs on the uzi's to light up the bomb/rocket button, the flame thrower button, and the red and green leds found on terminator 2 guns for target lock and civilian lock respectively.  I actually just tested some random leds I had in my parts drawer and they light up just fine without any voltage adjustment.  I'll take some readings of those crappy mosfets tomorrow to see how much power they are turning on just for curiosities' sake.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Yes, LEDs wired in series.  Basically just made a one conductor loop around the monitor.  Even at that low power, I'd be leary of running them without a resistor or current limiting device.

While I am satisfied with how well Lichtknarre worked in my testing, I do wish you'd get it up and running to experience it for yourself before ordering more gun parts.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Well I figure that even if this doesn't pan out the way I want it I can always convert them to jaybee/gun4ir guns cheaply.   I'm bound and determined to finally get a nice lightgun solution even if I have to code it myself.  I'm making my harness tonight and yeah I can throw a resistor on there just for good measure.   

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
What's your step by step to calibrate offset?  I feel like I'm going in a loop changing values and not understanding the precision movements.  I just know the aim isn't perfect and I'm assuming offset fine tuning is the solution.

My bezels are all exactly the same size.  Does that mean all offset values should theoretically be the same? I need some kind of method to follow.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 01:26:50 pm by ZTylerDurden717 »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
What's your step by step to calibrate offset?  I feel like I'm going in a loop changing values and not understanding the precision movements.  I just know the aim isn't perfect and I'm assuming offset fine tuning is the solution.

My bezels are all exactly the same size.  Does that mean all offset values should theoretically be the same? I need some kind of method to follow.

Left and right are usually pretty close to the same, but top and bottom may vary a bit.  The way I did it was to use the mouse plugin and cursor as a reference, get into the rough area where you will be using the gun and aim at the edges of the screen, one axis at a time.  Then note the difference between your aim and the mouse cursor point.  From there, it's just a matter of adjusting the IR offsets until all sides line up at the edges when you aim at them.  You will likely need to "shift" your offsets one way or another to balance the differences.  I.e. if the difference between each side is roughly the same and in the same direction, add or subtract the same amount from each side to get things centered and tweak some more after this if necessary.

It's a little fiddly in the beginning, but so long as nothing moves (LED, screen positions) you will only need to do it once.  So it pays to get it as close as possible in the beginning, before you start to calibrate within  individual games/apps.  Consider the LED offsets to be the foundation upon which everything you do thereafter is built.  Sadly, there will be some titles for which it seems impossible to get good linearity, and this is most likely due to the difference in resolution and/or aspect ratio.  Currently, there is no automated way to deal with that situation, so to play those games well, it will require fiddling with the IR offsets, as this appears to define your linearity.  So it's a good idea to write down the values before tweaking them for a specific title you want to play.  For others, with little to no decent calibration routines built-in, you can use the plug-in offset sliders,  These work well for vJoy and MAME, where the linearity is usually acceptable, but the cursor doesn't line up perfectly with your aim.

At some point, Fusselkroete will likely have some app sensing and automatic profile selection built-into the software to automate a lot of this.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
I mean I was working on this prior to my current job and the 4:3/16:9 issue should be solvable with simple math.   If you have a 16:9 screen and have calibrated it then a 4:3 game would be the same bounds with a shorter x axis.   If you have a 4:3 monitor and want to play 16:9 (I guess it could happen.) it'd be the same deal only with a shorter y axis instead of x.   I had planned to have the 4:3/16:9 modes switchable via the d-pad.   

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!

Left and right are usually pretty close to the same, but top and bottom may vary a bit.  The way I did it was to use the mouse plugin and cursor as a reference, get into the rough area where you will be using the gun and aim at the edges of the screen, one axis at a time.  Then note the difference between your aim and the mouse cursor point.  From there, it's just a matter of adjusting the IR offsets until all sides line up at the edges when you aim at them.  You will likely need to "shift" your offsets one way or another to balance the differences.  I.e. if the difference between each side is roughly the same and in the same direction, add or subtract the same amount from each side to get things centered and tweak some more after this if necessary.


Thanks! So let's say I'm aiming at the top of my monitor edge and my mouse is incorrectly appearing under my sights.  Am I adjusting the "top" offset in lichtknarre to -2 or 2 (assuming 2/-2 is the magic number).

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Thanks! So let's say I'm aiming at the top of my monitor edge and my mouse is incorrectly appearing under my sights.  Am I adjusting the "top" offset in lichtknarre to -2 or 2 (assuming 2/-2 is the magic number).

I guess the best way to put it is "don't overthink it too much."  When clicking on the up or down buttons next to the input fields, the cursor will move slightly.  If it moves in the direction you want, keep clicking it.  But yes, if you are looking at the top edge through your sights, then you want to be adjusting the "top" offset.   

This isn't necessary info for setting things up, but I've tried to analyze what each part of the software does.  I've come to the conclusion that the IR offsets are basically giving the software the start and end points for each axis.  It then should follow that it divides the total distance into equidistant chunks of space which are subsequently considered, taking the screen resolution into account, when mapping the cursor position.  This provides information for proper linearity and position extrapolation.  Assuming that this is true, it's important to make sure that the offset is correct to the edge of the screens addressable space (i.e. the real estate upon which things are actually being displayed and not, say, an overscan border on a CRT, as this is non-addressable space which is not part of the screens resolution.)  If this step is done poorly, there will be not only deviation from the sights, but that deviation will be non-linear as the cursor is moved across the screen.  Ideally, and it may not be 100% possible if your LEDs are positioned badly, you want that mouse cursor point to stay relatively consistent across the screen.  Without the smoothing mode active, some very minor jitter and deviation is to be expected and won't affect your gameplay to any great extent, as the hit boxes are usually large enough not to require perfection.

The other sliders next to the input plugin space are straight-up linear offsets for dealing with games which don't have decent calibration functions.  But they can't fix a poorly set-up IR arrangement or calibration thereof.

It should also be noted that in-game calibration sometimes needs to be "fooled" into lining things up correctly.  This is usually accomplished by not aiming directly at the calibration targets, but offset in the direction needed to compensate. It can take a few tries to get things good enough, but again, it only needs to be done once for each game as this data is saved so that the next run works just like you had it set up previously.

I've only run into a couple of instances (so far) which would benefit from being able to tweak those IR offsets on a per-game basis.  But YMMV, based on the type of monitor and the titles you want to play.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
What's your step by step to calibrate offset?  I feel like I'm going in a loop changing values and not understanding the precision movements.  I just know the aim isn't perfect and I'm assuming offset fine tuning is the solution.

My bezels are all exactly the same size.  Does that mean all offset values should theoretically be the same? I need some kind of method to follow.

The instructions for the software do state that games need to be ran fullscreen.  It should work, but the bezels are throwing a wrench in the works.
Also be sure to familiarize yourself with MAME's analog options unless you are running a hacked version of MAME to use them as mice instead of joysticks.  Minimize the deadzone (default is 30%!), increase saturation to 1 (100%), increase sensitivity until the crosshairs don't lag, & calibrate in the game's original service menu.  The service menu calibration can correct for a lot and is available on all but the very old (mostly Exidy) games.

Technically, offset should be how far (in mm) the center of the LEDs are from the edge of the screen.  In theory, that should be your starting point.

In practice though, at least in my case, it is correcting for some oddball behavior in my guns.  They both read centered when they are slightly right of center.

I could be wrong, but here is how I believe it works....
Everything is based on ratios (as it has to be to work on various size monitors).  The software assumes 74% of of the distance between the top and bottom LEDs is above the side LEDs and 26% is below the side LEDs.  When you change the offset of the top LED (changing the location of the top LED as far as the software is concerned), the distance between the top and bottom LEDs have increased.  26% of this larger distance results in the bottom LED shifting a bit as well.  Hence the back and forth until it is dialed in.

I just spent a long time going back and forth, but I always ended up with pretty much the same number on each direction only one was negative and the opposite was positive.
If doing it again, I'd change both simultaneously increasing one and decreasing the other instead of stepping back and forth.
That's what would work for my guns anyway. 

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Thanks!

It ended up being Top: 0 Right: 3.0 Bottom: 8.0 Left: 2.0

No negatives? Whatever, it works.  Haven't tested on the big screen yet but so far on my 24" monitor it's great.

Just doing Wii emulator for now because of its ease with 2 player.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Technically, offset should be how far (in mm) the center of the LEDs are from the edge of the screen.  In theory, that should be your starting point.

In practice though, at least in my case, it is correcting for some oddball behavior in my guns.  They both read centered when they are slightly right of center.

I'm not convinced that's the case.   Mine are a good 2 inches away, and the numbers don't reflect this distance in mm.  To me, it seems more like a percentage of the total which is "dead space".  This would make sense, as the software has no idea what the actual physical size of the screen might be.  So, it makes sense that it would need to use relative units, or percentages, for everything.

Also, at least in MAME with vJoy, I think I am seeing the same thing as you, with the cursor being offset a bit to the left of the sights for some reason.  I use the sliders for the vJoy plugin to correct for this.  It sounds like this might be some sort of issue with the interactions of MAME and/or vJoy, as I don't see this with the mouse plugin.


ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
If a Mame game doesn't have in-game calibration, as long as Vjoy/Mouse plugin offset and axis is dialed in, should that mean the Mame game should play as if calibrated?  That would also mean in-game calibration is "extra" but not necessary?  These weren't showstoppers for me previously when M2/M3/Naomi emulators had solid in-game tuning.  Lethal Enforcers, to my surprise, just has a gun test but not a calibration mode.  Time Crisis 1 same thing.

Also: Carnevil is amazing.  Holy crap this game didn't make it to the States cause I don't remember it from back in the day.  Solid in-game calibration too.


edit:
Consider the LED offsets to be the foundation upon which everything you do thereafter is built.  Sadly, there will be some titles for which it seems impossible to get good linearity, and this is most likely due to the difference in resolution and/or aspect ratio.  Currently, there is no automated way to deal with that situation, so to play those games well, it will require fiddling with the IR offsets, as this appears to define your linearity.  So it's a good idea to write down the values before tweaking them for a specific title you want to play.  For others, with little to no decent calibration routines built-in, you can use the plug-in offset sliders,  These work well for vJoy and MAME, where the linearity is usually acceptable, but the cursor doesn't line up perfectly with your aim.


Re-read this part today and realized you answered this already.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 11:14:29 pm by ZTylerDurden717 »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
If a Mame game doesn't have in-game calibration, as long as Vjoy/Mouse plugin offset and axis is dialed in, should that mean the Mame game should play as if calibrated? 

It will need to be played stretched widescreen.  You could also not stretch and set the offsets for the 4:3 image, but then widescreen games won't work.
This is the reason for the discussion earlier about changing offsets on the fly.  It is planned for a future update. (might already be an update, I haven't checked.)

I thought you had to be wrong about Lethal Enforcers not having calibration, but hell if I can find it.
Some of the older games have a DIP switch that needs turned on in MAME's in-game menu.
I thought it was just going to be the old Exidy games that lacked calibration.

As far as whether in-game calibration is necessary:

At the very least the "positional gun" games where the gun was mounted to the cab and used potentiometers (Terminator for example) will have to be calibrated.
There were no industry standards for analog controls, so different games had different pots, ranges of motion, digital steps, etc.
Trackball and spinner games need the sensitivity individually set for the same reason.  Different cabs had different step counts and gearing on the encoder wheels as does whatever device you are using with MAME.

For the true light gun games, it depends on how the input is handled in MAME.  Using a hacked version of MAME that allows fake mouse input should work fine for 1 player.  Using virtual joysticks will probably work fine on most games out of the box, but there could be outliers.  It is probably "good enough" while individually calibrating would be best practice.

Last time I had two guns fully integrated, it was a CRT screen and both guns (Act Labs) showed up as individual mice.
I've got a lot to learn setting them up as joysticks and using troubleshooter/demulshooter.

CarnEvil rocks!

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!

Last time I had two guns fully integrated, it was a CRT screen and both guns (Act Labs) showed up as individual mice.



I had an act labs gun as well.  It worked really dang well.  I thought I would keep it, but CRT's are way too burdensome when I've got LCD's everywhere around the house.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Btw guys I'm very much still in the mix on this one but I was in a car wreck last week and I'm still recovering.  No major injuries, but I cracked my sternum and the doc won't let me bend over or leift anything heavy.    Guess who has a 50" tv they want to use on this project in the floor of their living room.... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Regardless I'm still working on the stuff I can work on.   I ordered another nyko perfect shot shell and I think I've got a plan of attack to convert those into using micro switches.  I'll probably do that tomorrow.   I'll also solder up my led harness, although I won't be able to really test until I can get that tv where it needs to go.  New mofsets and all the misc junk I'll need to build my guns are incoming.   Once I get the hardware built, I'll start a new thread and I'll start posting config files for each game as I add them.   I'll add quickie lightgun support to checkered flag/pac-fe.   I know most people won't want to use something so basic, but it'll give a proof-of-concept example.   

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Btw guys I'm very much still in the mix on this one but I was in a car wreck last week and I'm still recovering.  No major injuries, but I cracked my sternum and the doc won't let me bend over or leift anything heavy.

Dang dude that's wild.  Glad you pulled through.

Looks like 3 of us have nyko perfect shots. 


I tested 2 player Lichtknarre on a 65 inch using the gun4ir vendor's IR LED wire harness.  They push enough light and work great from 8 feet away, and probably more.  I'm gonna assume the aliexpress ones will do the job too, especially their 15 light cluster variant.


Only thing is the distance of the Wiimote's IR blaster view.  You gotta use a wide angle or fish eye lens to play closer to the TV.  Otherwise, expect about 8 feet back for the tracking to remain stable for a display that size when hitting the corners.  From what I understand, wide angle and fish eye lenses are still being programmed for better precision to adjust for lens distortion.  My experience was still pretty solid, and best played when centered with the TV while the software gets optimized to play from other parts of where you may be sitting.

Dolphin, MAME and M3 played like champs after some initial setup.  PCSX2 (Time Crisis II) 2 player  is a no go at the moment since vjoy doesn't work with the nuvee plugin's mouse tracking.  Just a matter of time though before more plugins are added.

So cost breakdown for someone starting:
$20 - 2 Wiimotes
$10 - IR Harness
$20 - 2 Nyko Perfect Shots

$50 USD. For a 4 point light gun system. Hell of a party trick.

I lent it to my buddy and he hasn't stopped playing the past 2-3 days. 

« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 06:25:30 pm by ZTylerDurden717 »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
If anyone is looking for an awesome light gun front end, I highly encourage checking into SimpleTouchFE.

I played with it a bit many years ago, and it sprang to mind as being a perfect FE for this type of application.  I wasn't wrong.  There's even a light gun skin for 1080p displays available on the site now.  The only thing which gave me pause is that my virus checker kept flagging the download for malware. I assume this has something to do with the keyboard and mouse hooking features and it's a false positive, but that's for you to decide.  I fed it into VirusTotal and it was only flagged by a few of the checkers.  I'm also running it on an isolated and dedicated system, so I took the chance.  The latest version w/o Flash support seems to be working fine under Win10 and doesn't seem to interfere with the Lichtknarre software at all.

*edit* I should have given the caveat here that if the gun is using the vJoy plugin, you'll need a mouse to select the game.  While this doesn't bother me, as my favorites are happy to use the gun with the mouse plugin, you can get around this issue with some creative batch files/scripts, INI swapping, etc.  The FE has the ability to run setup code before launching the main executable in order to facilitate such things.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 05:32:01 pm by RandyT »

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Randy,

What's the verdict on your V2 offset tool?  It looks useful.  Did it work for you too?  Values accepted in millimeters?  If I can leave offsets at 0 that'll make this more streamlined when I demo at friends places.

PS full screening everything.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
What's the verdict on your V2 offset tool?  It looks useful.  Did it work for you too?  Values accepted in millimeters?  If I can leave offsets at 0 that'll make this more streamlined when I demo at friends places.

PS full screening everything.

It's not really an "offset" tool.  It's more of a "IR LED Positioning" tool, made in the hopes of providing a visual reference for getting the LEDs positioned at the correct ratios, when the LEDs aren't able to be positioned at the exact screen edges.  My "verdict" is that it is useful in that circumstance.  I can't say much beyond that.  I used it on two different monitors, and both of them resulted in the calibration wizard requirements being easy to satisfy.  I've also not found the need to move the LEDs to a location different from where I placed them as a result of using the tool as a guide.

I think you will always need to tweak the IR offset numbers, as these numbers represent the distance between the edges of the addressable screen area and the center of the IR LED/cluster.  The only time this would theoretically not be necessary is if those centers are directly on that edge, and in that case, you wouldn't need to use any guides not already provided by the Lichtknarre software.

But to answer your question, yes, you can take your measurements using mm's, or any unit of measure, so long as you use the same unit for all measurements :)

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Understood.  Thanks a lot.

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Has anyone gotten Model 2 emulator's coin and start mapped to the wiimote using the vjoy plugin?  Trigger fire and reload work fine when mapped in demulshooter so it's totally playable.  However, the model 2 GUI controls config won't recognize my button presses when trying to map coin and start to my wiimote.

Input looks like this.  It's copied from some guy who demo'ed lichtknarre working with vjoy on youtube:

XInput=1         ;Enable support for Xbox360 compatible devices
EnableFF=0         ;Enable Force Feedback Effects
HoldGears=0         ;Set to 1 to return to Neutral in driving games when the gear shift key is released
UseRawInput=0         ;Read mouse through Rawinput, allowing 2 mice
RawDevP1=0         ;Assign specific RawInput devices to players. If you have more than 2 mice
RawDevP2=1         ;set which one is assigned to each player (0-based)



BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Try disabling xinput.  Pretty sure vjoy uses dinput.

I'm using a keyboard encoder for coin and start, so didn't try using the buttons on the gun.

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
Also make sure you've enabled the buttons in vjoy.

Edit: This is also where Howard's Troubleshooter 2 or Demulshooter software comes in, but I haven't messed with it in a long, long time.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 05:00:06 pm by BadMouth »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Just posting this in hopes of saving someone else some headaches.

I'm not sure how many already know this, but the latest dev builds of PCSX2 have native GunCon2 support built-in and mouse emulation (single player only.)  Unfortunately, it doesn't work with Lichtknarre "out-of-the-box."  In it's default configuration, just running it will stomp all over Lichtknarre, even going as far as making the connected remote no longer visible in the test tab of the Lichtknarre software.

After a couple of hours messing with it, I realized that the SDL input driver, which is enabled by default, seems to have some built-in BT functionality to support DS3 controllers.  This creates a conflict with Lictknarre. But at least on my system, trying to disable SDL through the menus causes a hard crash, requiring task manager and/or a reboot to recover. 

Solution: Before running PCSX2, go into the configuration file (I believe it's located in a folder called "inis") and do a search for "SDL" in the inputs section.  It's set to "True" by default.  Change this to "False" and make sure directinput is set to "True".  Then save the file.  After doing this, it no longer walks over Lichtknarre.  The emulator also has great support for the current output methods used by Lichtknarre, so all of the remotes buttons even work properly in mouse mode.

This emulator works so well that I finally feel like I can stop beating on my old PS2 and it's optical drive, which I'm sure must be on the edge of collapse. :)
 

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Just posting this in hopes of saving someone else some headaches.

I'm not sure how many already know this, but the latest dev builds of PCSX2 have native GunCon2 support built-in and mouse emulation (single player only.)  Unfortunately, it doesn't work with Lichtknarre "out-of-the-box."  In it's default configuration, just running it will stomp all over Lichtknarre, even going as far as making the connected remote no longer visible in the test tab of the Lichtknarre software.

After a couple of hours messing with it, I realized that the SDL input driver, which is enabled by default, seems to have some built-in BT functionality to support DS3 controllers.  This creates a conflict with Lictknarre. But at least on my system, trying to disable SDL through the menus causes a hard crash, requiring task manager and/or a reboot to recover. 

Solution: Before running PCSX2, go into the configuration file (I believe it's located in a folder called "inis") and do a search for "SDL" in the inputs section.  It's set to "True" by default.  Change this to "False" and make sure directinput is set to "True".  Then save the file.  After doing this, it no longer walks over Lichtknarre.  The emulator also has great support for the current output methods used by Lichtknarre, so all of the remotes buttons even work properly in mouse mode.

This emulator works so well that I finally feel like I can stop beating on my old PS2 and it's optical drive, which I'm sure must be on the edge of collapse. :)

Excellent, that'll probably save me time when I get around to it.  Have you played Resident Evil: Dead Aim?  It's an absolute gem for light guns

By the sounds of it, I don't have to use the nuvee plugin anymore with native guncon2 support included in the latest builds.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 12:52:59 pm by ZTylerDurden717 »

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
[Deleting comment]
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 01:49:55 pm by ZTylerDurden717 »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
So I'm finally back to near 100% and lots of parts came in from Chinese ebay, so I'm resuming work this weekend.   My new mosfet modules came in and they appear to work just fine.   Also the 7.5v power pack I have left over from the uzi shell seems to power the solenoid I picked out for the pistols just fine.  I'll wire one up this weekend, charge the cell and do some testing to see how they fair with the average game.   My guess is the charge will be adequate for pistol games but not so much for analog stick gun games where the recoil is constantly firing.   I bought a cheap buck converter to put in one of the guns to see how viable running the wiimote off the same 7.5v pack will be.

The solenoids for the machine guns came in and damn I hope I can hold these things.  They are almost as big as a wiimote and fairly heavy.  It'll be a challenge getting them in there along with a wiimote pcb.  I ordered black wiimotes as I'll be painting the nkyo pistols black and one of the sellers sent me a wiimote clone instead of the real deal.   It's one of those clones that look 100% identical except for the lack of a "wii" logo at the bottom.   The good news is, unlike the nyko wands they connect and work just like the real deal.  Black wiimotes are getting surprisingly hard to find at a good price, so that might save you some money.

Once I get what I feel is an easy to build hardware prototype built I'll start a new thread to keep from cluttering this one.   

One thing of note.  I was having problems getting the wiimotes to reconnect once powered off and assumed it was lichtknarre but apparently it was due to an interaction between it and mamehooker.   I hook the hid handles of the wiimotes to send them rumble data and while that works just fine if lichtknarre hooks the wiimotes first, it'll block lichtknarre from re-establishing a connection to a wiimote if those handles are still hooked.   The solution is fairly easy, I just close the handles after a game shuts down, but it will require a new version of mamehooker to be released to fix.   Of course a workaround right now would be to close mamehooker via a command line call prior to re-connecting and then launch it again afterwards.   

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Went over my buddies to test out some shooting on his 65".  Used the nunchuck for reload and threw some random mp3 to drown out the banter.   Don't mind the 60% accuracy I wasn't focusing before he hit record  ;D

Can't get over this damn software.


RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Can't get over this damn software.

Now that I have things tuned in, I'm still amazed.  I think the highest I achieved for accuracy on the first part of VC1 was 99%.  Then I figured out that just hit accuracy isn't the best way to get points.   But still, it's a great test of the system.

If you really want a grueling test, fire up some "Sport Shooting USA".  I think I'm addicted.  :lol

I think my biggest problem right now isn't related to the software.  The trigger-pull on the stock Nyko "Perfect Shot" is killing me, but I'll have that sorted shortly ;).

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Go to lowes/walmart/where ever and get some 6/32 x 1" machine screws. (Maybe 1/32 smaller but I like it nice and tight to avoid slop).  Using one of the nuts as a spacer you can get a standard arcade switch centered behind the blue pull rod.  Take off the grips and just drill holes and mount the switch with the screws. Then either remove the b trigger on the wiimote or cut off the little fin shaped tab at the end of the pull rod to keep the rod from catching on the wiimote so it only stops when hitting the switch.   A little soldering and you are done.  You may have to cut one of the supports but half of those are redundant anyway.

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Go to lowes/walmart/where ever and get some 6/32 x 1" machine screws. (Maybe 1/32 smaller but I like it nice and tight to avoid slop).  Using one of the nuts as a spacer you can get a standard arcade switch centered behind the blue pull rod.  Take off the grips and just drill holes and mount the switch with the screws. Then either remove the b trigger on the wiimote or cut off the little fin shaped tab at the end of the pull rod to keep the rod from catching on the wiimote so it only stops when hitting the switch.   A little soldering and you are done.  You may have to cut one of the supports but half of those are redundant anyway.

Practical. Definitely wanna see this in action.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
I appreciate the tips, but I've already done the problem-solving steps.  What works great is a mini-microswitch with a long-ish lever.  If you bend the lever at a hard 90 a little less than halfway along the length of the switch body and then bend the end of the lever downward with a bit of a rounded profile, it places the switch in the open area in the top rear of the shell and the curved end of the lever contacts the back part of the bar.  At that point, the screws and nuts for spacers to mount is a good approach, or even a pile of hot melt if one is lazy.

I also think the best way to handle the trigger bar is to just cut off any part of it which isn't necessary.  Silicone grease helps a LOT in that channel, but just getting rid of anything which can add friction solves it permanently.  The goal, for those who haven't guessed it, is to actuate the switch well before the trigger bottoms out, to prevent the actuation from pulling the front of the gun off-target....which is what happens too often with these types of shells.

The reason I haven't completed the mods on this one, is because I am working on 2 other shell candidates at the same time, one of which may end up being a better general-purpose solution.  So that one is getting the attention at the moment, while I playtest with the other Nyko I haven't torn apart yet :).

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Hi new version is now available with following features:

version: 0.9.10.15
download: https://geekonarium.de/en/lichtknarre-lightgun/

- commandline with interprocess communication: https://geekonarium.de/en/common-informations-about-lichtknarre/
- show scrollbars+fullscreen : for small monitor resolutions the user is now able to resize the window and have scrollbars. (not on this screenshot)
- Hold home button for 5 sek to switch connector plugin. its configurable:



No one had time to test so i put it online blind :D Please call me back if someone find a bug or something. I will add bug reporting possibility somewhere soon.

Here a list of actual commands:

Code: [Select]
Lichtknarre - help
##################

You can use Lichtknarre.exe even if it is already running and executed.
Thanks to the IPC communication the commands are always sent to the main
process. But only 1 command can be executed every 5 seconds.

 Keep the numerical limits of the commands otherwise this could lead to crashes.
If you have misconfigured reinstall the application or delete all ini files from
the folder.
# List of all commands from the Lichtknarre main program:

set connectorplugin {player index} {connector plug identifier}
  Explaination: set connector plugin for player
  Example: Lichtknarre.exe --set connectorplugin 1 mouseConnector
  Possible connector plugin identifiers: vJoy2Connector, mouseConnector
  playerindex begins at 1
  You can only edit players which are available in the tool.

# List of all commands from all Connector Plugins:

mouseConnector adjustAxisForPlayer {playerIndex} {adjustX} {adjustY}
     Explaination: Set adjust X,Y for player.
     Example: Lichtknarre.exe --mouseConnector adjustAxisForPlayer 1 -1.3 2.5
     playerindex begins at 1
     You can only edit players which are available in the tool.
     Floating values are with dot format. Maximal value:200 Minimal value:200

vjoyConnector adjustAxisForPlayer {playerIndex} {adjustX} {adjustY}
     Explaination: Set adjust X,Y for player.
     Example: Lichtknarre.exe --vjoyConnector adjustAxisForPlayer 1 -1.3 2.5
     playerindex begins at 1
     You can only edit players which are available in the tool.
     Floating values are with dot format. Maximal value:200 Minimal value:200

# List of all commands from all Tracker Plugins:

wii4LEDTracker set defaultIrGameOffset {Left Offset} {Right Offset} {Top Offset} {Bottom Offset}
     Explaination: set default IR game offset for Wii 4 LED tracking system
     Example: Lichtknarre.exe --wii4LEDTracker set defaultIrGameOffset 1.2 1.5 2.3 1.2
     Floating values are with dot format. Maximal value:40 Minimal value:-40

wii2LEDTracker set defaultIrGameOffset {Left Offset} {Right Offset} {Top Offset} {Bottom Offset}
     Explaination: set default IR game offset for Wii 2 LED tracking system
     Example: Lichtknarre.exe --wii2LEDTracker set defaultIrGameOffset 1.2 1.5 2.3 1.2
     Floating values are with dot format. Maximal value:120 Minimal value:-20

this will grow in future.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2023, 04:45:00 am by Fusselkroete »

BadMouth

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9226
  • Last login:March 25, 2024, 08:10:48 pm
  • ...
 :applaud:

I was afraid you had stopped working on it.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Does someone know a good tool/script to run a programm as admin without UAC admin prompt? nirsoft tool or something? I want suggest this for cab users on the website :) Maybe someone has cool technique already.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2023, 05:12:37 am by Fusselkroete »

lilshawn

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Last login:Today at 04:40:51 pm
  • I break stuff...then fix it...sometimes
dude, just disable UAC. it's dumb and pointless on a game machine. just slide that mother all the way to the bottom and forget about it.

right click the program and go in to the properties, and then the compatibility tab...click run as administrator.

FUGGEDABOUTIT

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
It seems that Dolphin 5 has problems to work together with Lichtknarre. Both tools try to get the handle from the wiiremote, when connecting by holding 1 and 2. Someone would have to tell Dolphin as an issue on github that they should turn off the BT functionality completely when all functionalities to record real Wiiremote are turned off. Otherwise this leads to incompatibilities.
Another idea I would have is to write a tool with C# that hooks into the target program and blocks blutooth.

Or maybe someone can recommend a tool for this job? To block BT for certain tools?

But Dolphin 4 works very well.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2023, 03:47:14 am by Fusselkroete »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Since your program uses vjoy to make a virtual joystick anyway, the obvious choice would be to just disable wiimotes in dolphin completely and then map the virtual joystick manually.   I can confirm that it's possible to write (NOT READ) to the wiimote from other programs while yours has the wiimotes hooked so rumble and led control would still be doable.  I can post some samples of code if you guys think it'd be helpful.   

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Since your program uses vjoy to make a virtual joystick anyway, the obvious choice would be to just disable wiimotes in dolphin completely and then map the virtual joystick manually.   I can confirm that it's possible to write (NOT READ) to the wiimote from other programs while yours has the wiimotes hooked so rumble and led control would still be doable.  I can post some samples of code if you guys think it'd be helpful.

That's exactly what I did. Everything disabled for real wii remotes. No scanning etc. Still I could not connect the wiimote to Lichtknarre by holding the 1 and 2 buttons, as long as Dolphin was still open. Maybe very rarely it worked. When I closed dolphin it worked wonderfully again. Closing Dolphin is no solution. For example, if someone needs to replace the battery in the middle of the game, then they have to restart Dolphin.

But I think this BT blocker tool could help. This needs to be developed. With other emulators that support real WiiRemotes the same could happen. The tool is then hooked into the running emulator in the case Dolphin and the functions for BT are overwritten. I hope that Dolphin then no longer tries to connect to the Wii, because Dolphin is not informed about the devices. hope it works.

What code do you have there?

« Last Edit: April 01, 2023, 04:56:35 am by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Thanks for hanging in there with the updates!  Especially the scrollable windows interface for those of us with lower res CRTs :)

Closing Dolphin is no solution. For example, if someone needs to replace the battery in the middle of the game, then they have to restart Dolphin.

While it would be nice for the authors to fix it, or find a workaround, I don't think it's a huge issue so long as the user is aware of it happening with that one version.  I'm not sure if it can do it, but most emulators allow for a game progress snapshot, so if batteries need to be changed, it's just a matter of saving the game and rebooting with the fresh batteries. If one is using a gun with an internal battery, they'd be done playing for a few hours anyway :).

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Does anyone know if PCSX2's latest SDL RAW Input would allow for 2 players via vjoy with lichtknarre?  I don't think so, but looking for confirmation.

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
One thing I wanted to mention that I find fascinating is that Lichtknarre is probably the only solution for line-of-sight 2 player for Wii games that don't support in-game calibration.  These games don't natively feature in-game calibration so you're s*** out of luck aiming without crosshairs unless you mess around with the emulator's ini on a per-game basis.  Fortunately, the good folks working on the Sinden LG wiki provide the calibration ini for those games that Lichtknarre can leverage for 2 player.  Sinden can utilize them too obviously--but limited to one player!  An indirect gift, no doubt.

I highly recommend Resident Evil Darkside Chronicles as an example.  It's an awful light gun game at stock settings but with crosshairs removed and a rapid fire hack enabled, it's a ---smurfing--- blast.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2023, 08:47:12 pm by ZTylerDurden717 »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Does anyone know if PCSX2's latest SDL RAW Input would allow for 2 players via vjoy with lichtknarre?  I don't think so, but looking for confirmation.

Didn't test it, so i dont know. Just want to mention that other connector plugins are still under development: xinput/rawinput hook. But im not sure when this will be ready to release. could take longer time. i hope this works in the end. But if it works this will maybe help to connect to more emulators and make it compatible.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_hO48IkGl4tYwfkDmiX3Pz3olSzyAhgVJpxdv0QwmsE/edit# << xinput had a test already. :) (screenshots at bottom)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 07:29:04 am by Fusselkroete »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
One thing I wanted to mention that I find fascinating is that Lichtknarre is probably the only solution for line-of-sight 2 player for Wii games that don't support in-game calibration.

Possibly just as effective, with the author's latest version, and as I understand it, you are able to tweak some calibration offsets from the command line while the program is already running.  Unless the calibration is way off, you should be able to correct some or maybe all of this with a well-crafted command line and an FE which allows for running something before the game launches.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 02:36:45 pm by RandyT »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
I hate to be "that guy" but I would like to point out that the two resident evil games on the wii are NOT meant to be line of sight lightgun games.   The gun is verry much used as a cursor in these games which is why when you sweep towards the edges of the screen the camera pans.   So one to one reticule placement isn't really how they are supposed to behave. 

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
which is why when you sweep towards the edges of the screen the camera pans. 

If what you're saying is true, shouldn't I be able to pan the camera with my cursor hitting the edges?

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
which is why when you sweep towards the edges of the screen the camera pans. 

If what you're saying is true, shouldn't I be able to pan the camera with my cursor hitting the edges?


You should do lets plays xD

a5608498

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
  • Last login:March 12, 2024, 12:13:43 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
You can use hidhide to hide wiimotes from dolphin.

Remember to whitelist lichtknarre on hidhide list.

Still hidhide is not able to properly hide Wiimote in all cases. After a resync they may come back (ask author for some possible fixes). But will be the proper solution.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 06:18:37 am by a5608498 »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
You can use hidhide to hide wiimotes from dolphin.

Remember to whitelist lichtknarre on hidhide list.

Still hidhide is not able to properly hide Wiimote in all cases. After a resync they may come back (ask author for some possible fixes). But will be the proper solution.

sounds great!

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
You can use hidhide to hide wiimotes from dolphin.

While this may work, it should be mentioned that applications like hidhide should never be installed on a daily driver gaming system which is used for online multiplayer games.  Many anti-cheat programs look specifically for this type of software, and just having it present on the system can result in account/IP/system bans and/or loss of your games, despite the legitimate reasons for using such software.

The cheating problem for online games has become so bad, the game companies don't care how many babies are tossed with the bath water.  So keep this in mind when installing any system-level device software on systems used for this purpose. 

But for dedicated/off-line systems, go wild. :)

a5608498

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
  • Last login:March 12, 2024, 12:13:43 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Hidhide is almost mandatory when using DS4Windows to avoid the double input problem. Been hiding sony controllers since some years ago.

Not sure how bad can this be for online gaming, but never had problems. But I guess it depends on the game, anticheat system, etc.

Doesnt Windows 11 has some permissions settings for BT, webcam, etc for every app?

https://www.digitalcitizen.life/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/app_permissions-7.png

Maybe BT is not on the list.

RetroRon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Last login:October 25, 2023, 10:51:50 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Just learned about the Lichtknarre project so please excuse my ignorance on the topic. It's nice to see that this project will allow people to use existing Wiimotes as a lightgun. I have a few questions:
1. Does the 2 IR LED option support using a single Wii sensor bar?
2. Does the 4 IR LED option support using 2 Wii sensor bars, one on top and one on bottom?
3. Why does the 4 IR LED configuration use the 50/50 top/bottom placement but the sides use a 74/26 placement instead of a 50/50 diamond pattern? Is it to distinguish the lower part of the screen from the top?
With so many lightgun projects popping up lately, each with different IR LED placements, it seems that my monitor is slowly turning into a tanning bed! (I know, wrong end of the light spectrum, maybe I should have said heating pad)

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Hi new version is now available with following features:

version: 0.9.10.20
download: https://geekonarium.de/en/lichtknarre-lightgun/

This version is now compatible with Dolphin 5.
Lookup tutorial for Dolphin 5: https://geekonarium.de/en/vjoy-lightgun-emulator-configuration/#configureDolphin5
This injects a hook into Dolphin 5 and filters out real wii remotes. Many thanks to LuftWaffle aka ZTylerDurden717 and trihy aka a5608498 for all their help with testing. Please give me feedback if something is not working well with the current version.

This version also includes the following fixes: Adjust x,y can now always reach the edges correctly and the windows 10 scaling problem has been fixed again.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 03:20:03 pm by Fusselkroete »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Just learned about the Lichtknarre project so please excuse my ignorance on the topic. It's nice to see that this project will allow people to use existing Wiimotes as a lightgun. I have a few questions:
1. Does the 2 IR LED option support using a single Wii sensor bar?
2. Does the 4 IR LED option support using 2 Wii sensor bars, one on top and one on bottom?
3. Why does the 4 IR LED configuration use the 50/50 top/bottom placement but the sides use a 74/26 placement instead of a 50/50 diamond pattern? Is it to distinguish the lower part of the screen from the top?
With so many lightgun projects popping up lately, each with different IR LED placements, it seems that my monitor is slowly turning into a tanning bed! (I know, wrong end of the light spectrum, maybe I should have said heating pad)


1. yes
2. technically you can use 4 sensor strips with only 1 LED sticking out behind the TV, which respects the placement that is wanted in the calibration. But more advance way is to buy/build your own leds.
3. the exact placement of the LEDs with these ratios helps the software to find out exactly which LED is which in order to always calculate the exact position.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Howard, did you give up?  I keep wondering how you are making out with your conversion.  :)

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19399
  • Last login:Today at 05:29:33 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
No I've just been busy.   Haven't really started yet to be honest.   

Posad

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
  • Last login:March 08, 2024, 08:56:26 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I first came across this a few days ago and ordered the bits and pieces to make the led harness.  While I wait for it, I am working on integrating the wii remote permanently into a gun shell with proper trigger action.  I have two questions:

1. Does Lichtknarre take advantage of Wii Motion Plus?  That is, do I need Motion Plus or can I use an earlier model without loosing accuracy, response time or any other benefit?  Not sure if there is any other relevant difference between wii remote revisions.
2. Possibly related to the first question, does Lichtknarre rely on the camera only, or does it also read other wii remote sensors? Testing my work in progress gun with the Wii, it seems the camera orientation has to match the remote pcb.  I tried to have the pcb sideways for easier button access while keeping the camera in the normal position as if the buttons were facing up (think TV remote control) and it did not work.  The Wii was confused and the cursor moved erratically.

Thank you for all your work. I cannot wait to set it up and play.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2023, 08:43:36 am by Posad »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
I first came across this a few days ago and ordered the bits and pieces to make the led harness.  While I wait for it, I am working on integrating the wii remote permanently into a gun shell with proper trigger action.  I have two questions:

1. Does Lichtknarre take advantage of Wii Motion Plus?  That is, do I need Motion Plus or can I use an earlier model without loosing accuracy, response time or any other benefit?  Not sure if there is any other relevant difference between wii remote revisions.
2. Possibly related to the first question, does Lichtknarre rely on the camera only, or does it also read other wii remote sensors? Testing my work in progress gun with the Wii, it seems the camera orientation has to match the remote pcb.  I tried to have the pcb sideways for easier button access while keeping the camera in the normal position as if the buttons were facing up (think TV remote control) and it did not work.  The Wii was confused and the cursor moved erratically.

Thank you for all your work. I cannot wait to set it up and play.


Hi :D

Lk does not use motion plus but uses the motion sensor. It makes no difference if you use motion plus or not. With the 4 LED tracker it takes about 0.8 seconds to adjust when you tilt the wii with the 4 LED tracker. Not for the 2 LED tracker. So in summary, LK is camera and motion sensor dependent.

LK is currently still in beta status as described in the tutorials and may therefore be incompatible with some emulators. However, other connector plugins are being worked on.

Regarding the side buttons, hopefully a guncradle will be released soon as a 3d print which will hopefully eliminate this problem.

I can't give any timeframe for this, because this is only a hobby project.

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Can someone show me a screenshot of what it is supposed to look like in retroarch input config when you have set it up correctly?
I managed to get it to work with MAME, but it does not work with Retroarch.

I tried to do:
Analog to Digital Type: Left Analog Forced
Left Analog Y- (Up)    Axis -1
Left Analog Y+ (Up)   Axis +1
Left Analog X- (Up)    Axis -0
Left Analog X+ (Up)   Axis +0

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Can someone show me a screenshot of what it is supposed to look like in retroarch input config when you have set it up correctly?
I managed to get it to work with MAME, but it does not work with Retroarch.

I tried to do:
Analog to Digital Type: Left Analog Forced
Left Analog Y- (Up)    Axis -1
Left Analog Y+ (Up)   Axis +1
Left Analog X- (Up)    Axis -0
Left Analog X+ (Up)   Axis +0

Hello, I think it is not compatible yet. Can you explain what is going wrong with the setup? Do you see vjoy gamepads in retroArch? This will be fixed in future versions for sure. Many things are currently in the works.

I bet it's not compatible because retroarch itself implemented a Wii client and it steals the handle from Lichtknarre. There is a hook in the current version of LK that takes over the Dolphin 5 process and blocks all Bluetooth capabilities so LK can keep the handle. I'll have to try this out on retroArch if retroarch has implemented a Wiiremote client. Steam should have the same problem since it is wiiremote compatible. If the program has implemented the functionality properly and provides an option to disable wiiremote functionality, then it should work with LK, but that was not the case with Dolphin. LK also unhooks the Dolphin 5 process when it is closed. it is just a process hook.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2023, 01:26:24 pm by Fusselkroete »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
It was a nightmare to setup. Every time I was assigning an axis retroarch controls would stop responding, then I had to quit retroarch and come back to do the next Axis. The Y-Up axis was almost impossible to do, but somehow I managed to do it at the end.
When I started I could see the target moving at the bottom of the screen. It appeared that I was kind of affecting it's movement, but I couldn't see any pattern for the movement.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
There is a utility for the axes to calibrate the emulators:

https://geekonarium.de/forumPics/axiscalibrationhelper.png

sry this is still missing in the tutorials.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2023, 01:45:17 pm by Fusselkroete »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Has anyone managed to play Model 2 and Naomi (Demul) with 2 players? I only managed to play one player, using with mouse plugin.

Also, for supermodel, I could get Ocean Hunt and Lost World to work with 2 players, but LA Machine Guns is not working. Any ideas?
I tried both:
<inputs>
    <input type="common" />
    <input type="gun1" />
    <input type="gun2" />
</inputs>

<inputs>
    <input type="common" />
    <input type="analog_gun1" />
    <input type="analog_gun2" />
</inputs>
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 05:32:07 pm by karoloydi »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Has anyone managed to play Model 2 and Naomi (Demul) with 2 players? I only managed to play one player, using with mouse plugin.

Also, for supermodel, I could get Ocean Hunt and Lost World to work with 2 players, but LA Machine Guns is not working. Any ideas?
I tried both:
<inputs>
    <input type="common" />
    <input type="gun1" />
    <input type="gun2" />
</inputs>

<inputs>
    <input type="common" />
    <input type="analog_gun1" />
    <input type="analog_gun2" />
</inputs>

sry i have no clue but if you find the answere please share here :)

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Has anyone managed to play Model 2 and Naomi (Demul) with 2 players? I only managed to play one player, using with mouse plugin.

Also, for supermodel, I could get Ocean Hunt and Lost World to work with 2 players, but LA Machine Guns is not working. Any ideas?
I tried both:
<inputs>
    <input type="common" />
    <input type="gun1" />
    <input type="gun2" />
</inputs>

<inputs>
    <input type="common" />
    <input type="analog_gun1" />
    <input type="analog_gun2" />
</inputs>

sry i have no clue but if you find the answere please share here :)

For the LA Machinegun I figured it out. There was something wrong with my NVRAM file. Even when I deleted it, it wouldn't create a proper one. I downloaded another one from Launchbox forums and that fixed the issue:
https://forums.launchbox-app.com/files/file/3857-sega-model-3-supermodel-git-everything-pre-configured-inc-controls-for-pc-controller-mouse-light-guns-test-menus-configured-free-play-all-games-in-english-2-player-mouse-support-audio-adjusted-layout-imagesthe-whole-9-yards/?do=download

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I got M2 Emulator work with 2 players too, with DemulShooter.
Only Demul left now. I am positive DemulShooter will work with Demul.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
I got M2 Emulator work with 2 players too, with DemulShooter.
Only Demul left now. I am positive DemulShooter will work with Demul.

Maybe you can do tutorial for the ppl here and it can be added on the website if you like. Also other ppl who are interested in doing such things can post here and I put it on the site :)

https://geekonarium.de/en/vjoy-lightgun-emulator-configuration/#emulatorConfigurations
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 06:00:04 am by Fusselkroete »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Hi,

If anyone is intrerested how to set up M2 EMulator with 2 players, you can follow this tutorial. Thats' what I used. I think the only difference is that he's using a Dolphin Bar instead of lichtknarre.


« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 12:27:38 pm by karoloydi »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I can confirm that Demul works with the exact same method I posted above!
The only difference is the script on the bat file.

It looks like this for demul:
Demulshooter.exe -target=demul07a -rom=confmiss

It looks like this for M2 EMulator:
Demulshooter.exe -target=model2 -rom=hotd

target is the emulator. Rom is the name of the rom zip file.

You will need to go in the service/test menu and calibrate the guns, but they very accurate after that.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 02:24:35 pm by karoloydi »

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I can confirm that Demul works with the exact same method I posted above!
The only difference is the script on the bat file.

It looks like this for demul:
Demulshooter.exe -target=demul07a -rom=confmiss

It looks like this for M2 EMulator:
Demulshooter.exe -target=model2 -rom=hotd

target is the emulator. Rom is the name of the rom zip file.

You will need to go in the service/test menu and calibrate the guns, but they very accurate after that.

Also good news is that PS2 emu PCSX2 latest 1.7 versions support two player with lichtknarre using vjoy  :cheers:

Time Crisis 2 split-screen doesn't work yet however that's due to emulator support rather than the light gun system.

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I can confirm that Demul works with the exact same method I posted above!
The only difference is the script on the bat file.

It looks like this for demul:
Demulshooter.exe -target=demul07a -rom=confmiss

It looks like this for M2 EMulator:
Demulshooter.exe -target=model2 -rom=hotd

target is the emulator. Rom is the name of the rom zip file.

You will need to go in the service/test menu and calibrate the guns, but they very accurate after that.

Also good news is that PS2 emu PCSX2 latest 1.7 versions support two player with lichtknarre using vjoy  :cheers:

Time Crisis 2 split-screen doesn't work yet however that's due to emulator support rather than the light gun system.

Cool! Any good PS2 games to try, that I can't find in Arcade emulators?

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
By the way, if someone wants to do a 4 IR LED setup cheaply, and is not good at electrical stuff, there's a USB IR LED you can buy from Ali Express:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004523162882.html
It's about £14 including delivery
It says up to 42", but it fit my 46". I think more than that you'll struggle.
The IR LEDs are more or less as strong as the wii sensorbar.

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I set up PCSX2 with 2 players too! Time crisis split screen works too.

There are a few things to keep in mind:
In the Controller settings, you need to go to the Global settings and tick "Enable Dinput Input Source"
I also had issues with wiimotes disconnecting. Deselect "Enable SDL Input Source". That will stop PCSX2 trying to take over the wiimotes.
I did a separate instance of PCSX2 for the lightguns, to not mess up with the settings for my other games. (you can just copy and paste the whole installation folder)

Then you need to go and edit the ini file:
If you don't have any custom profiles, then you edit the PCSX2.ini file inside the "inis" folder of PCSX2 installation folder
If you are using custom profiles, I believe that would be inside the "inputprofiles" folder of your PCSX2 installation folder
You will need to copy this to the [USB1] section of the ini file (or overwrite if it already exists):
guncon2_RelativeUp = DInput-0/-Axis1
guncon2_RelativeLeft = DInput-0/-Axis0
guncon2_RelativeRight = DInput-0/+Axis0
guncon2_RelativeDown = DInput-0/+Axis1

and this to your [USB2] section:
guncon2_RelativeUp = DInput-1/-Axis1
guncon2_RelativeLeft = DInput-1/-Axis0
guncon2_RelativeRight = DInput-1/+Axis0
guncon2_RelativeDown = DInput-1/+Axis1

(it's likely it won't allow you to save the file directly. Just save it on your desktop , then copy and paste and overwrite)
There's a chance that It's DInput-2 or DInput-3. (You can try and map some of the buttons and see what it will show you.)

Then map all the buttons.
Make sure to map the "calibration shot" button. You will need that for the first step of calibrating the guns.
The first time it asks you to aim, I press the "calibration shot" button and aim at the target at the same time. Not sure if you have aim at the same time, but I think you do.

I have only one issue. Sometimes after calibration, the aim cursor only goes about 85% down, and the more I calibrate the worse it becomes. Not sure why. But it's not really an issue, cause I'm never aiming that low anyway. I think if you are more or less happy with your first calibration, do't try to calibrate again.
Edit: All you have to do is aim a bit higher or lower than you are supposed to, and it will bring the upper or lower borders up or down
« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 11:06:46 am by karoloydi »

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I set up PCSX2 with 2 players too! Time crisis split screen works too.

There are a few things to keep in mind:
In the Controller settings, you need to go to the Global settings and tick "Enable Dinput Input Source"
I also had issues with wiimotes disconnecting. Deselect "Enable SDL Input Source". That will stop PCSX2 trying to take over the wiimotes.
I did a separate instance of PCSX2 for the lightguns, to not mess up with the settings for my other games. (you can just copy and paste the whole installation folder)

Then you need to go and edit the ini file:
If you don't have any custom profiles, then you edit the PCSX2.ini file inside the "inis" folder of PCSX2 installation folder
If you are using custom profiles, I believe that would be inside the "inputprofiles" folder of your PCSX2 installation folder
You will need to copy this to the [USB1] section of the ini file (or overwrite if it already exists):
guncon2_RelativeUp = DInput-0/-Axis1
guncon2_RelativeLeft = DInput-0/-Axis0
guncon2_RelativeRight = DInput-0/+Axis0
guncon2_RelativeDown = DInput-0/+Axis1

and this to your [USB2] section:
guncon2_RelativeUp = DInput-1/-Axis1
guncon2_RelativeLeft = DInput-1/-Axis0
guncon2_RelativeRight = DInput-1/+Axis0
guncon2_RelativeDown = DInput-1/+Axis1

(it's likely it won't allow you to save the file directly. Just save it on your desktop , then copy and paste and overwrite)
There's a chance that It's DInput-2 or DInput-3. (You can try and map some of the buttons and see what it will show you.)

Then map all the buttons.
Make sure to map the "calibration shot" button. You will need that for the first step of calibrating the guns.
The first time it asks you to aim, I press the "calibration shot" button and aim at the target at the same time. Not sure if you have aim at the same time, but I think you do.

I have only one issue. Sometimes after calibration, the aim cursor only goes about 85% down, and the more I calibrate the worse it becomes. Not sure why. But it's not really an issue, cause I'm never aiming that low anyway. I think if you are more or less happy with your first calibration, do't try to calibrate again.
Edit: All you have to do is aim a bit higher or lower than you are supposed to, and it will bring the upper or lower borders up or down


I have it set up that way too in pcsx2.  You'll notice in split-screen if you aim down the sights for player 1 or player 2 it won't be accurate.  It's a bug with the emulator itself.

Also about the aim cursor being 85% down.  Sounds like offset adjustments needed in lichtknarre if you haven't done that yet.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
I set up PCSX2 with 2 players too! Time crisis split screen works too.

There are a few things to keep in mind:
In the Controller settings, you need to go to the Global settings and tick "Enable Dinput Input Source"
I also had issues with wiimotes disconnecting. Deselect "Enable SDL Input Source". That will stop PCSX2 trying to take over the wiimotes.
I did a separate instance of PCSX2 for the lightguns, to not mess up with the settings for my other games. (you can just copy and paste the whole installation folder)

Then you need to go and edit the ini file:
If you don't have any custom profiles, then you edit the PCSX2.ini file inside the "inis" folder of PCSX2 installation folder
If you are using custom profiles, I believe that would be inside the "inputprofiles" folder of your PCSX2 installation folder
You will need to copy this to the [USB1] section of the ini file (or overwrite if it already exists):
guncon2_RelativeUp = DInput-0/-Axis1
guncon2_RelativeLeft = DInput-0/-Axis0
guncon2_RelativeRight = DInput-0/+Axis0
guncon2_RelativeDown = DInput-0/+Axis1

and this to your [USB2] section:
guncon2_RelativeUp = DInput-1/-Axis1
guncon2_RelativeLeft = DInput-1/-Axis0
guncon2_RelativeRight = DInput-1/+Axis0
guncon2_RelativeDown = DInput-1/+Axis1

(it's likely it won't allow you to save the file directly. Just save it on your desktop , then copy and paste and overwrite)
There's a chance that It's DInput-2 or DInput-3. (You can try and map some of the buttons and see what it will show you.)

Then map all the buttons.
Make sure to map the "calibration shot" button. You will need that for the first step of calibrating the guns.
The first time it asks you to aim, I press the "calibration shot" button and aim at the target at the same time. Not sure if you have aim at the same time, but I think you do.

I have only one issue. Sometimes after calibration, the aim cursor only goes about 85% down, and the more I calibrate the worse it becomes. Not sure why. But it's not really an issue, cause I'm never aiming that low anyway. I think if you are more or less happy with your first calibration, do't try to calibrate again.
Edit: All you have to do is aim a bit higher or lower than you are supposed to, and it will bring the upper or lower borders up or down


I have it set up that way too in pcsx2.  You'll notice in split-screen if you aim down the sights for player 1 or player 2 it won't be accurate.  It's a bug with the emulator itself.

Also about the aim cursor being 85% down.  Sounds like offset adjustments needed in lichtknarre if you haven't done that yet.

No its not about IR Offset. Only use adjust axis x,y for this.

You only need IR Offset to tell the programm that there is a gab between the display and the IRs.
You only need Game offset to tell the programm that there is a matte in the game and the curcor only works in these boundarys. ( i hope matte is the right word: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_matte)

https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/
« Last Edit: November 06, 2023, 02:47:33 pm by Fusselkroete »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Yeah, I fixed it without offset.
Just aim a bit higher or lower than the centre, and it will bring the lower or upper border up or down.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Yeah, I fixed it without offset.
Just aim a bit higher or lower than the centre, and it will bring the lower or upper border up or down.

nooo do normal calibration. dont use extra offset. Use Adjust Axis x,y. In your case adjust Axis y. this feature is exactly made for this purpose in "selected connector plugin setting".

https://geekonarium.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/multiplayer.png

I use it in mame for lucky and wild. Because the second player was moved to the right with the crosshair in mame.

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I just got Dark Escape 4D, Deadstorm Pirates and Sailor Zombie working as well, with 2 players!
It's quite fun  :)

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
I just got Dark Escape 4D, Deadstorm Pirates and Sailor Zombie working as well, with 2 players!
It's quite fun  :)

i dont know these games but glad you like the software :D

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I just got Dark Escape 4D, Deadstorm Pirates and Sailor Zombie working as well, with 2 players!
It's quite fun  :)

i dont know these games but glad you like the software :D

Deadstorm pirate is like Transformers Human Alliance with pirate zombies
Dark Escape 4D is like House of the Dead
Sailor Zombie is like House of the Dead with Japanese pop-star zombies
« Last Edit: November 16, 2023, 01:34:37 am by karoloydi »

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I had assumed non button-pressed off-screen reload would only work with dolphin emulator. Turns out i can do it perfectly well with latest pcsx2.  Does anyone have off-screen reload working for them in other emulators? Which ones and how did you do it?

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I had assumed non button-pressed off-screen reload would only work with dolphin emulator. Turns out i can do it perfectly well with latest pcsx2.  Does anyone have off-screen reload working for them in other emulators? Which ones and how did you do it?
Demul and Technoparrot also suppport this
« Last Edit: November 17, 2023, 02:07:09 am by karoloydi »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Just received my Overshot (buckshot) gun! Got it for only £5, cause the nunchuch part does not work.
I think I can still fix it. The nunchuck attachment broke off and fell inside.
The trigger and reload still work well.
I just mapped the start button to the trigger and set the games to freeplay for now.
Playing house of the dead was very good :)


ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I had assumed non button-pressed off-screen reload would only work with dolphin emulator. Turns out i can do it perfectly well with latest pcsx2.  Does anyone have off-screen reload working for them in other emulators? Which ones and how did you do it?
Demul and Technoparrot also suppport this

Awesome thanks for the info.

I'd be interested in Demul.  So all you had to do was calibrate in the test menu for whichever game and it allowed off-screen reloading? Vjoy mode using demulshooter?

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!

Awesome thanks for the info.

I'd be interested in Demul.  So all you had to do was calibrate in the test menu for whichever game and it allowed off-screen reloading? Vjoy mode using demulshooter?

Yes, vjoy mode and demulshooter. I don't remember about the test menu. You might not need to do that.

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!

Yes, vjoy mode and demulshooter. I don't remember about the test menu. You might not need to do that.

Confirmed this works with HotD2 demul!  But not possible with Confidential Mission.  Still pretty cool.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2023, 06:39:53 pm by ZTylerDurden717 »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I tried to use Lichtnarre with Guitar Hero Arcade, with my guitar hero wii guitar, but the buttons are not recognised.
Does anyone know why?
I thought they worked as a nunchuck.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
No this is an extra peripheral. what are the benefits to use this in LK? Sounds like out of scope?

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Yes, vjoy mode and demulshooter. I don't remember about the test menu. You might not need to do that.

Would you mind testing Time Crisis 2 on PCSX2 and see if you can reproduce the issue with this emulator?  I can calibrate perfectly but after that calibration screen I can't hit the edges of the screen (like there's an invisible wall) and the aiming is off like this:
« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 09:28:08 am by ZTylerDurden717 »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
No this is an extra peripheral. what are the benefits to use this in LK? Sounds like out of scope?

I found another software, but every time I would use that separate software I would have to turn off lichtnarre and disable vjoy.
It's too many steps to just play one game.

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Yes, vjoy mode and demulshooter. I don't remember about the test menu. You might not need to do that.

Would you mind testing Time Crisis 2 on PCSX2 and see if you can reproduce the issue with this emulator?  I can calibrate perfectly but after that calibration screen I can't hit the edges of the screen (like there's an invisible wall) and the aiming is off like this:


Mine is slightly off on top. It goes about 95%. Left right and down is fine.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
No this is an extra peripheral. what are the benefits to use this in LK? Sounds like out of scope?

I found another software, but every time I would use that separate software I would have to turn off lichtnarre and disable vjoy.
It's too many steps to just play one game.

ok maybe in future i find the time to add support for this.

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!

Mine is slightly off on top. It goes about 95%. Left right and down is fine.

I made a better video.  You don't have this issue on the sides AFTER calibration screen?


EDIT: Non-issue.  Widescreen patch was on and caused the alignment issue.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 09:50:44 am by ZTylerDurden717 »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!

Mine is slightly off on top. It goes about 95%. Left right and down is fine.

I made a better video.  You don't have this issue on the sides AFTER calibration screen?


EDIT: Non-issue.  Widescreen patch was on and caused the alignment issue.

No, it works fine for me.

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!

No, it works fine for me.

Works now for me too.

I believe it's a known issue with pcsx2, but if you figure out accurate 2 player split-screen time crisis 2 let us know.

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Sometiems I have to turn off and on Lichtnarre a couple of times until it picks up my controllers.
Or sometimes it picks up the first controller and have to turn off and on to pick up the second.
Does anyone else have this?

ZTylerDurden717

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 188
  • Last login:January 07, 2024, 12:52:28 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Sometiems I have to turn off and on Lichtnarre a couple of times until it picks up my controllers.
Or sometimes it picks up the first controller and have to turn off and on to pick up the second.
Does anyone else have this?

Only if Dolphin emu is open while synchronizing LK to wiimotes, I may randomly have something similar.  I usually solve this by not having Dolphin open during the process.

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Can you play Dolphin with lichtnarre?
I haven't tried it yet.
It should be more accurate with 4 LEDs.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
Sometiems I have to turn off and on Lichtnarre a couple of times until it picks up my controllers.
Or sometimes it picks up the first controller and have to turn off and on to pick up the second.
Does anyone else have this?

connection problems mostly appears on low battery.

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Has anyone managed to get sega clay challenge to work?
I keep getting wrong rom size error.

Edit: I downloaded the latest 0.261 version of mame and it works.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 12:51:31 pm by karoloydi »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I noticed that Sinden light Gun has a 16:9 to 4:3 switch.
That would be very useful to implement for Lichtnarre, and I don't think it would be too hard.
Maybe do a long press shortcut as well? Like we have at the moment for switching between mouse and vjoy?
That would be pretty cool I think.

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
I noticed that Sinden light Gun has a 16:9 to 4:3 switch.
That would be very useful to implement for Lichtnarre, and I don't think it would be too hard.
Maybe do a long press shortcut as well? Like we have at the moment for switching between mouse and vjoy?
That would be pretty cool I think.

That will not happen. Sinden has no IR offsets/game offsets. It works a little differently here (https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/). But! There will be profiles for games so that this is then automatically reconfigured when you switch to another gaming/working-process(emulators or something). Also manual switching is possible. Alot of todos already in the queue for LK. Currently you can also just copy and paste the whole installation folder from LK and then configure it for a new game.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 09:20:27 pm by Fusselkroete »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I noticed that Sinden light Gun has a 16:9 to 4:3 switch.
That would be very useful to implement for Lichtnarre, and I don't think it would be too hard.
Maybe do a long press shortcut as well? Like we have at the moment for switching between mouse and vjoy?
That would be pretty cool I think.

That will not happen. Sinden has no IR offsets/game offsets. It works a little differently here (https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/). But! There will be profiles for games so that this is then automatically reconfigured when you switch to another gaming/working-process(emulators or something). Also manual switching is possible. Alot of todos already in the queue for LK. Currently you can also just copy and paste the whole installation folder from LK and then configure it for a new game.

That sounds good to me!

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Woohoo!

I managed to get ps3 move lighgun games to work.
I have played Time Crisis Razing Storm and Time Crisis 4 so far. They play great.
I'm downloading some more to try.
It's 1 player only, cause it works with mouse plugin.
If anyone is interested in a tutorial, please let me know.

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
I noticed that Sinden light Gun has a 16:9 to 4:3 switch.
That would be very useful to implement for Lichtnarre, and I don't think it would be too hard.
Maybe do a long press shortcut as well? Like we have at the moment for switching between mouse and vjoy?
That would be pretty cool I think.

That will not happen. Sinden has no IR offsets/game offsets. It works a little differently here (https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/). But! There will be profiles for games so that this is then automatically reconfigured when you switch to another gaming/working-process(emulators or something). Also manual switching is possible. Alot of todos already in the queue for LK. Currently you can also just copy and paste the whole installation folder from LK and then configure it for a new game.

Another useful feature would be to be able to map the mouse buttons to whichever wiimote button you want. Most of the times the reload button is button A and it's hard to reach. it would be better ot be able to map it to button Z. Also to have a middle mouse button, that would be useful. Some games use the middle button for grenade.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2024, 06:05:36 am by karoloydi »

Fusselkroete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Last login:March 07, 2024, 10:26:15 am
  • sup dudes?
I noticed that Sinden light Gun has a 16:9 to 4:3 switch.
That would be very useful to implement for Lichtnarre, and I don't think it would be too hard.
Maybe do a long press shortcut as well? Like we have at the moment for switching between mouse and vjoy?
That would be pretty cool I think.

That will not happen. Sinden has no IR offsets/game offsets. It works a little differently here (https://geekonarium.de/en/what-is-ir-offset-and-why-do-i-need-it/). But! There will be profiles for games so that this is then automatically reconfigured when you switch to another gaming/working-process(emulators or something). Also manual switching is possible. Alot of todos already in the queue for LK. Currently you can also just copy and paste the whole installation folder from LK and then configure it for a new game.

Another useful feature would be to be able to map the mouse buttons to whichever wiimote button you want. Most of the times the reload button is button A and it's hard to reach. it would be better ot be able to map it to button Z. Also to have a middle mouse button, that would be useful. Some games use the middle button for grenade.

Yes, this is already planned :)

It will be called somehow like this: Tracker to Connector Plugin Assignment System
Tracker Plugins can publish all kind of types. Axis, Buttons, Gyros, 3D positions etc.
This can be assigned to Connector plugin inputs. this hopefully should look like blender shader editor in future. Also Modifiers would be cool to assign inbetween :D.

Coding is pain and slow. so im not 100% sure if this feature will come like this. We will see. :-) But this would be the optimal solution.

Atm i try to publish this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hr5rhfJXKckCDkUgpZxucUXRTshW1757/view?usp=drive_link
« Last Edit: January 02, 2024, 01:42:37 am by Fusselkroete »

karoloydi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
  • Last login:March 02, 2024, 02:24:14 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Wow,

I can't wait to try it. :D

smallgamer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Last login:March 19, 2024, 05:07:39 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Been trying out this software recently and its truly something incredible! Unfortunately I've run into an issue. I was able to pair my wiimote to my computer via BT, and am able to have it recognized in Lichtknarre. I have successfully used the Wii controller in the past through software like Wiitar thing or on Dolphin using the sensor bar so I know there is not an issue in detecting the bluetooth pairing. Once paired to Lichtnarre, I am able to do the calibration and then use the wiimote as a mouse on my desktop. However, as soon as I actually launch a game, regardless of the emulator I am launching it with, the Wiimote is no longer detected by Lichtknarre but is still connected to my PC via bluetooth. I have seen others mention that sometimes having Dolphin open can cause a fight between the programs on who detects it but I have turned off any pairing of a real wiimote to Dolphin and Dolphin has never been opened throughout my testing of Lichtknarre. Any reason why this might be happening?

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6882
  • Last login:March 26, 2024, 03:33:28 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Once paired to Lichtnarre, I am able to do the calibration and then use the wiimote as a mouse on my desktop.

This probably isn't all that helpful, but once you have reached that point, anything which happens after that is not specifically related to Lichtknarre.   Something on the system is interrupting the relationship between the controller and the LK software, be it a third party utility which might be waiting in the background to launch with whatever app you are starting, or the app itself.  Basically, anything which hooks controllers to read them directly, even if it is not specifically geared toward BT devices, could interfere with LK's communications.

You stated that you have used other similar drivers/apps on the system prior, so my question is how much of the code from those is continuing to linger on the system, possibly even after an uninstall?  By their nature, some of these kinds of drivers use code which digs deep into the lower rings of the operating system, like at the kernal level, and might be difficult or even impossible to remove without a special piece of software specifically designed for that task, which would need to be provided by the developer.

Or, it might just be a silly configuration error for whichever application might be causing the issue :)  It's hard to know, but if fiddling with app configs yields no success, it's likely going to be something much more difficult to figure out, given the other software you had running previously on the system. 

smallgamer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Last login:March 19, 2024, 05:07:39 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Very interesting! I  thought it was strange that it worked perfectly fine until actually launching a game using an emulator regardless of which one it was. I wonder if it could be something like a frontend software such as Launchbox causing the issue. I will have to do some testing because it seems like the trigger is simply launching a game even through standalone emulators. Has anyone had experience using Lichtknarre and Launchbox?