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Author Topic: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?  (Read 654 times)

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matamian

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Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« on: September 30, 2022, 08:38:18 am »
I'm in the process of modding a ridge racer 1up cabinet with a pc. I'm keeping all the stock controls and wiring them to an apac. So far everything is going well.

The ridge racer wheel has a built in rumble motor. There's a red and black wire coming out of the motor. I'm assuming one us ground and the other us 5v? Is there a way to get this hooked up to the apac and have it function with ffb plugin? Not sure if it's possible or not. 

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2022, 11:27:39 am »
The ridge racer wheel has a built in rumble motor. There's a red and black wire coming out of the motor. I'm assuming one us ground and the other us 5v? Is there a way to get this hooked up to the apac and have it function with ffb plugin?
It is not possible using just an A-Pac.
- The A-Pac is an encoder for microswitch and/or potentiometer inputs.

The rumble motor is controlled by a game output via the FFB plugin.
- To translate the FFB plugin output for rumble, you would need something like an LED controller to drive a relay that applies power to the motor.  The relay is needed because the motor almost certainly draws more current than one channel of the LED controller can provide.

Don't assume the voltage or current draw of the motor.


Scott

matamian

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2022, 07:56:41 pm »
Really appreciate the info. Hopefully I can figure it all out. Going to do some digging to see if I can pull it off. I'll post back with an update.

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2022, 08:33:41 pm »
Forgot to mention that you'll need a program like MAMEhooker or LEDBlinky to turn the outputs into LED (or in your case relay) on/off commands.


Scott

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2022, 01:32:41 am »
You are in the need not only for a software sending rumble informations and a driver to deliver current to the motor, but also a hardware capable of receiving those rumble info and actuating the driver

matamian

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2022, 08:33:20 pm »
Ok, I made some progress but I'm in need of help. I have no idea what I'm doing lol.

So I got rumble working. I purchased a solid state relay and a knock off xbox controller. I wired the ground and live wire from each rumble motor to the  + and - on the relay and then the ground and live from the rumble motor to the same terminals on the relay. This was successful and I was able to get the rumble tests in ffb plugin to work. Works in game for teknoparrot as well. My issue is that the rumble is not that strong in many games. I'm trying to get more power to the motor.

I have a 12 volt power supply that I cut but I'm not sure how to wire it to increase the power to the motor. All my attempts have leas to the motor just running at full blast and won't stop until I unplug the power supply.

I attached a diagram showing how it's currently wired. It works but doesn't seem like it's getting enough juice. A lot of rble effects are very faint. In the test menu in ffb plugin the rumble seems to work well but it could definitely use more power. Any tips on what I can do?

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2022, 11:00:57 pm »
To be clear, are you connecting to a PC or an XBox?
- OP mentioned a PC, but the image you posted says XBox.   :dizzy:

I can't help you if you can't clearly communicate what equipment you are working with.
- Is the rumble motor rated for 12v or only 5v?
- What LED controller are you using?

I have no idea what I'm doing lol.
True.  It's time to change that.   ;)

Step 1: Remove power from XBox/PC.

Step 2: Disconnect the wires going to the relay and keep them from shorting together.

Step 3: Pray that you haven't already damaged anything.  If you wire a 12v power supply like your diagram appears to imply, you could have fried your XBox/PC.

Step 4: Learn about how relays and circuit diagrams work.
- I will help you with these topics, but you must learn the basics to do this type of electronic work safely and correctly.
- Your relay is an "SPST-NO".  (Single Pole Single Throw, Normally Open)  The bottom contacts on your relaly are like the coil on the left of the diagram and the top contacts on your relay are like the switch on the right of the diagram.  When you apply power to the coil, the switch closes.


Step 5: After we figure out what you're using and plan how to wire everything, then you can connect everything properly.

Step 6: Enjoy.   ;D

After you answer the three questions above, do steps 1-3, and read the info/links in step 4, I can get started on putting together more detailed and relevant info for step 4.   :cheers:


Scott

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2022, 02:21:00 am »
- Your relay is an "SPST-NO".  (Single Pole Single Throw, Normally Open)  The bottom contacts on your relaly are like the coil on the left of the diagram and the top contacts on your relay are like the switch on the right of the diagram.  When you apply power to the coil, the switch closes.



I've just been using and learning a lot about these solid state relays lately (in some cases, the hard way). There is a lot more to think about than a simple switch.

The bottom terminals (3 & 4) control the switching - when voltage and sufficient current is applied, a switch is closed between top terminals (1 & 2). Live wire for the rumble motor must be switched via the top terminals, 1 & 2. You seem to have just connected everything to the control terminals 1 & 2.

Because you are running motors, even small ones, be aware that inductors (motors have them) store a significant amount of current in their coils, which has nowhere to go once you turn them off. Therefore this current can "slosh" (my word) back and forth over the inductor many times, temporarily (for up to tens of milliseconds) increasing voltage on the wires to scary high levels. This can happen at both the switching/motor side and on the control side (as there is an inductor coil there too, as Scott has pointed out).

Fortunately your SSR unit has snubbers built in to protect the relay. However, they are not there to protect your rumble motors, which may have less tolerance than the SSR.

Therefore it may be a good idea to fit snubbers across the inputs to your rumble motors to protect them from damage.

For about $1 or less each, you can buy a pre-assembled generic snubbers (a varistor, capacitor and resistor) that you can connect across the +'ve and -'ve terminals to your motor. Any high voltage peaks get redirected across the snubber, breaking the high-voltage looping across the inductor.

For a very simple snubber, you can attach a simple fast-switching diode, like a IN4148 or IN914 across the terminals (in reverse direction), which again bleeds off any high voltages generated.

Finally, SSRs have a relatively high residual or leakage current of 2-10 mA or so, which can sometimes create issues.

I'm not Scott and not really an expert, just this stuff is all front of mind for me at the moment. This video by Dave of EEVblog fame explains it better than I can.




Check out my completed projects!


baritonomarchetto

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2022, 02:24:44 am »
That diagram is definiteely wrong. You are juicing your motor directly from the xbox controller rumble out, which is rated for very small motors. It's incredible you have not fried it at first run (maybe the motor you are trying to drive is very small?)
This is how it should be wired

https://upload.forumfree.net/i/ff12355843/SSR40DD_wiring.png

On the arduino side you have the xbox gamepad rumble out, but the principle is the same.

How big is the motor? What are the nominal ratings?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 02:28:11 am by baritonomarchetto »

PL1

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2022, 12:38:53 pm »
There is a lot more to think about than a simple switch.
True, but one needs to know the fundamentals before they can even begin to consider more advanced applications.

To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, "Gentlemen, this is a relay!"   :lol

it may be a good idea to fit snubbers across the inputs to your rumble motors to protect them from damage.
Good point.   :cheers:


Scott

matamian

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2022, 07:45:51 pm »
To be clear, are you connecting to a PC or an XBox?
- OP mentioned a PC, but the image you posted says XBox.   :dizzy:

I can't help you if you can't clearly communicate what equipment you are working with.
- Is the rumble motor rated for 12v or only 5v?
- What LED controller are you using?

I have no idea what I'm doing lol.
True.  It's time to change that.   ;)

Step 1: Remove power from XBox/PC.

Step 2: Disconnect the wires going to the relay and keep them from shorting together.

Step 3: Pray that you haven't already damaged anything.  If you wire a 12v power supply like your diagram appears to imply, you could have fried your XBox/PC.

Step 4: Learn about how relays and circuit diagrams work.
- I will help you with these topics, but you must learn the basics to do this type of electronic work safely and correctly.
- Your relay is an "SPST-NO".  (Single Pole Single Throw, Normally Open)  The bottom contacts on your relaly are like the coil on the left of the diagram and the top contacts on your relay are like the switch on the right of the diagram.  When you apply power to the coil, the switch closes.


Step 5: After we figure out what you're using and plan how to wire everything, then you can connect everything properly.

Step 6: Enjoy.   ;D

After you answer the three questions above, do steps 1-3, and read the info/links in step 4, I can get started on putting together more detailed and relevant info for step 4.   :cheers:


Scott

Thank you for your reply!

I'm using a pc as my platform. I'm wiring from a knock off xbox 360 controller to the relay and from the relay to the rumble motor.

I'm trying to figure out what the voltage is on this motor but I don't know how. I figured it may have been on the motor but it's not. It's not much bigger than the motors that were in the 360 controller so I thought it might have enough power. Obviously I was wrong and am going about this the wrong way.

What can I do to find out the voltage on this motor?




PL1

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2022, 09:25:07 pm »
I'm wiring from a knock off xbox 360 controller to the relay and from the relay to the rumble motor.
OK . . . I thought you were trying to use the motor that was in the A1UP Ridge Racer wheel.   :dunno
The ridge racer wheel has a built in rumble motor.
That motor is probably larger than the ones in an XBox360 controller and mounted in the best position for you to feel the rumble.

What can I do to find out the voltage on this motor?
According to a question on this listing for XBox360 replacement rumble motors, they are rated for 12v.
---------------
- What LED controller are you using?
The question remains: What hardware are you using with the MAMEhooker/LEDBlinky software to turn the software game outputs into hardware LED (or rumble in your case) on/off control voltages that can drive the relay.
- No controller hardware = no LED/rumble control voltages = no way to turn the rumble motor on and off.


Scott
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 09:27:56 pm by PL1 »

matamian

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2022, 10:03:57 pm »
I'm actually not using an led controller. I have a USB y splitter with the apac and 360 controller connected to it. This seems to work well with ffb plugin. The 360 controller receives the rumble info and send it out to the wheel motor. I actually am using the rumble motor in the wheel btw. It felt pretty good in some games but I could tell it was very faint in others.

I'm waiting on a ffb wheel to come in, eventually just going to swap out the stock wheel for that. I really wanted to get this working fully, though. I think I have more fun trying to figure this stuff out than I do playing the games nowadays lol.

I appreciate all the help you guys are giving me.

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2022, 01:18:21 am »
What can I do to find out the voltage on this motor?
According to a question on this listing for XBox360 replacement rumble motors, they are rated for 12v.
---------------

I think that seller might be wrong. 360 controllers run on 2xAA 1.5v cells, so up 3.3v max essentially. If USB, then USB only supplies 5v and 500mA.

These seem to be the right motors, and specs say 4-8v. I guess they work on 2.5-3v too.

https://www.vybronics.com/?s=vjq24

Note the rated max current 150mA! Somewhere I read they can draw up to 260mA on startup. So 2 motors means you've already taken everything USB can give. So you wouldn't want to add an APAC and 360 on top of that.

SSR-25 DD probably won't work so well for switching with such low control voltages.

Low voltage "arduino" 5A or 10A relays maybe better, and maybe an arduino too to control the relays for you.

Alternatively, because it is low power, you could use some transistors to control the switching like this:
https://www.electronicshub.org/transistor-as-a-switch/.

Would suggest powering the rumble motors with separate and dedicated 5v power supply for stronger and more consistent operation (not same power supply as 360, APAC, switching). Don't forget the snubber diodes (in reverse, across each motor/inductive load).

Probably all moot if you are going to sub in the ffb wheel. But I've written it anyway, so here it is :D
Check out my completed projects!


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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2022, 03:07:44 am »
Here's what I had in mind.

I agree that a 25A relay is massive overkill, but it might work.
- Control current (5-25mA) shouldn't be an issue, but if the 360's motor is running off 3.3v, that could be a problem with this relay. (3-32v control voltage)

I also agree that you don't want to use USB for the power supply.
- Better to tap into one of the PC's Molex cables or use a "wall-wart".


Scott

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Re: Is it possible to wire a rumble motor to an ultimarc apac?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2022, 07:14:28 am »
Definitely not moot! This is all valuable info to me. I'm doing a ffb wheel in this project but I'm not throwing out my old parts. I'll keep you guys updated on my progress.  I appreciate the help.