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Arkanoid Spinner
Xiaou2:
The problem with Arkanoids geared spinner, is that the gears used have very fine teeth...
and when the bearings start to wear... it causes bad alignment on these gears.. which causes
slippage, skipping, breakage of teeth, and or complete seizing... so that you cant even spin it
at all.
Larger Teeth gears, are far less likely to experience this type of failure, because the teeth are
deep enough that... even if they get a MM out of alignment, they still tend to function fine.
(albeit, with a bit more "Slop" when changing directions)
The gearing served a good purpose... To add a higher resolution, much like how modern
mice have high DPI settings, for highly competitive FPS aiming.
The gearing also helped to prevent accidental over-spinning / unwanted movements. Free-spinning
is awesome for games like SuperSprint... but you lose a bunch of control on games like Arkanoid, and
even on Tempest (moving when you dont want it to move).
That said, I believe certain spinners used dual sensors (quad encoding?), to get a higher resolution,
without needing the gearing. They also tended to have a much larger optical disc, with much
smaller holes. (IE: Discs of Tron spinner).
It would be cool to design a geared spinner, when much thicker toothed gears, to see how it would
compare. Not sure how much more friction might be involved.. and not sure how much larger the
assembly would have to be, to replicate Arkanoids arcade resolution.
As for saying Puzzloop is the best spinner game? I personally cant agree.
A list of most of the Non Arkanoid spinner games... all of which Id probably choose above Puzzloop.
- Mad Planets
- Tempest (non geared)
- Tron (non geared)
- Kick (Ratio geared via Rollers)
- Star Trek
- Major Havok (Ratio Geared via Rollers)
- Discs of Tron (non geared)
- Tac Scan
- Zektor
- Omega Race
- Wiz Warz
- Top Secret
- Off the Wall (Sente. Like a side-view Tennis. Not to be confused with the Atari brick game)
- Moon War
- Demolition Derby
- Crater Raider
- Aztarak
360 Degree Optical Wheel games:
- Turbo (Sega - Geared)
- Super Sprint (Non Geared)
- Pole Position I & II (Geared)
- Super Offroad
- Firetruck
- TX-1 (Geared)
- Buggy Boy
- Hot Rod
RandyT:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on September 16, 2022, 07:12:06 pm --- The gearing served a good purpose... To add a higher resolution, much like how modern
mice have high DPI settings, for highly competitive FPS aiming.
The gearing also helped to prevent accidental over-spinning / unwanted movements. Free-spinning
is awesome for games like SuperSprint... but you lose a bunch of control on games like Arkanoid, and
even on Tempest (moving when you dont want it to move).
--- End quote ---
My take on the whole geared-spinner thing is that it was done solely for the sake of resolution. The gearing used was selected to provide a specific number of pulses over an equally specific number of degrees of rotation of the knob. The control uses the standard optical encoder configuration and easily sourced plastic disc for the time. The other thing which points to this is the fact that DOH added yet another 2 gears to increase its resolution further, which also changed the feel of the control.
While the spinner build did have this effect of adding resistance, that moment-of-inertia is also what eventually ended up destroying the gearing. Changing directions after moving it quickly put big stresses on those tiny gear teeth. This is because that encoder wheel, and the shaft it was connected to, were spinning much faster than the knob was being turned which meant that the effects of momentum were amplified. I recall fast movements feeling like they wanted to keep going, but in a more disconnected way than a 1:1 encoder feels.
The short of it is that Arkanoid is a Breakout clone with added elements. Breakout used a potentiometer-based control, which by its nature, has a very small amount of resistance but is extremely smooth. Unfortunately, they suffer from mechanical wear, which leads to inaccuracy over time. Therefore, the ideal control for a game in that genre is one which comes close to the feel of a quality potentiometer, without the negative aspects of that device. The closest one can currently come to perfection is a modern, high-resolution optical spinner, with a light-ish knob and some means to dampen any residual momentum there might be. But there will always be one aspect missing, unless the user wants to hobble the spinner for other titles, and that is the positive stops at the end-of-travel.
Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---that moment-of-inertia is also what eventually ended up destroying the gearing. Changing directions after moving it quickly put big stresses on those tiny gear teeth
--- End quote ---
But that is Not why they failed. Ive owned a few destroyed Arkanoid spinners, that were part of a parts-lot sale.
It was easy to see, that the small shafts had "Play", due to the bearings or "Holes" that the shafts were mounted
into... were bored out of spec.
Since the smallest shaft deflection angles, caused such small gear teeth to be so far off from each other... the gears
quickly shredded themselves, and locked up completely.
If you forced the thing back and forth, sometimes you could keep it from seizing up for part of its rotation.
But it was very clear that there was no way to repair / restore these things.
Its not that different than the Classic Two-Way "Denfender" mini-sticks. Once the bearings started to wear,
the stick developed too much "Play". The parts were too loose, and would go at off-angles.. and create even
worse wear. Eventually, you had a control that was virtually (or completely) unusable.
The first things to wear were typically the bearings... but eventually, the shafts themselves, ended up
wearing to the point of no possible repair. You would simply have to replace everything.
Anything with small gears, needs the utmost precision with alignment. As said, larger toothed gears
have the ability to deal with some deflection issues, without too much issue, if at all.
--- Quote --- Breakout used a potentiometer-based control, which by its nature, has a very small amount of resistance but is extremely smooth. Unfortunately, they suffer from mechanical wear, which leads to inaccuracy over time.
--- End quote ---
Pots are Analog, and by their very nature, have virtually Infinite values between their two ends.
And since there is no gear backlashing (gear slop / play), you are always getting a direct One-To-One, control input.
Where as Optical, is Digital.. and its resolution, is based on taking "samples per time unit". The higher the sample rate,
the higher the Resolution. Digital will always be inferior to the original analog values. But at a certain level, you are
taking so many samples per time unit... that the human senses, might never be able to tell the difference.
(Though... Id argue, that your subconscious mind, might be able to pick up the differences in Audio from a non-compressed Record,
vs a high resolution digital recording)
Pots are not merely used for certain games like Pong... but were far more often used in Arcade driving games,
with Gas, and Brake, pedals... as well as Analog Joysticks. They tend to last a good 5 to 9 yrs of Daily Arcade
abuses... before they eventually fail. And being that Arcades were opened 7 days a week, 15 hrs a day... thats
more than enough use to justify their wear issues.
That said... a game like Pong, where you are constantly moving the Pot in most of its travel, at aggressive speeds,
all day long... is very different from a gas pedal, where you often leave it fully depressed. Even when used for
steering wheels... you tend to move left to right... far less frantically, than what would occur in a game of Pong.
Hence, the combination of lower quality Pots that may have been used for Pong... combined with much
greater use per game, and more use of the Pots full length of travel... and you got much faster wear issues.
Very rarely do you ever see someone tossing out their Flight stick, due to a bad pot. Even mini-pots in
Thumb-Stick gamepads, rarely go bad, to the typical household gamer.
As a former manager at an Arcade, I have replaced bad pots in these machines. But many of these machines
were between 10 to 20 yrs old... and once you replaced one, you didnt have to worry about doing that again,
for another decade or so (unless you got a defective pot).
As a Note, I will add... that a lot of the pot based controllers, used Gearing with these pots. They were rarely
direct-drive... such was likely was the case, with the Pot for Pong. The gearing allowed more of the Pots
values to be utilized, thus, upping the resolution/values possible.
--- Quote ---Therefore, the ideal control for a game in that genre is one which comes close to the feel of a quality potentiometer, without the negative aspects of that device.
--- End quote ---
This is sort of a dishonest take. You see... any "Resistance" that you add to an Optical spinner... is still going to
wear down. And in fact, depending on what you use for the resistance friction (and how much friction that you choose to apply)...
it might wear down far faster than any Pot ever would.
Furthermore, both the Pot and the Optical spinners... would likely have far less resistance than a Geared spinner.
But all of that is besides the point... Because the only Breakout games that use Pots, are mostly the older
1970s or earlier... black and white, arcade games.
One of the main reasons for not using Pots on games like Arkanoid, was due to the fact that the player might
over-crank the POT, and damage it. Sure, it might take a dude with insane grip to do this... or, some idiot
that used a pair of Pliers / adjustable wrench... but it probably happened to Arcade owners games... far more
times than people realize.
Also.. if anyone wants to make an actual Paddle controller for certain games that actually used one...
its simple as Pie. Just hack a standard PC joystick... and use a $10 pot, and place a knob on top.
Personally, I was always awful at Arkanoid... and I have not felt a PRIME working example, since I was
a little kid... to know the comparison in feel, and precision control.
I do know how geared 360 degree steering wheels feel and control, such as Sega's Turbo...
which worked smooth as butter... and were very high in control resolution. But these are a bit different,
in that you have much larger gearing, and much greater leverage forces, via the large wheel.
But IMO... sometimes its not merely about what works Universally "acceptable". Its about what matches
the original experience. If you can, for example... replicate the exact Resolution... so that the game
controls and plays 100% the same as the Original Arcade machine.
(or as close as possible, with potential improvements to certain failure points... such as upgraded materials
that do not wear as easily, superior rigid housing that doesnt flex / distort, any possible, in this case,
use of larger gears altogether)
There are in fact certain controllers that... while you can replace with generic controllers... will NEVER
come close to the feel and control of the real deal.
One of these is the sit down version of Race Drivin. That powerful FFB Dryer motor that is directly
attached to a large steering wheel with a full 3.5 rotations. That brake which used a Strain-Gauge
for precision FAR beyond a POT. That dual-pot based 6-Gear shifter, with perfect snap locking...
all create an experience that your generic PC wheel equipment, cant replicate.
Even Spy Hunter's wheel... is designed for you to Bump the baddies with Full human Strength force..
which would quickly destroy a modern plastic gaming wheel. At very least, it wont feel good doing it,
as you hear the thing creak and flex under those stresses.
brandon:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on September 17, 2022, 06:48:29 pm --- Digital will always be inferior to the original analog values.
--- End quote ---
This might be true in theory due to analog having "infinite" values but in practice the DAC on an arcade board is going to convert that into discreet digital values with a set resolution. At that point any advantage a pot would have is lost.
RandyT:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on September 17, 2022, 06:48:29 pm --- It was easy to see, that the small shafts had "Play", due to the bearings or "Holes" that the shafts were mounted
into... were bored out of spec.
--- End quote ---
It's easy to come to that conclusion, but the fact of the matter is that the gears were a soft plastic, and all that force and friction will deform them over time. Enough deformation and the gears start to skip and the wear increases 10-fold. Some small slop is necessary to keep the control from feeling too tight, so it's a trade-off.
--- Quote --- Pots are Analog, and by their very nature, have virtually Infinite values between their two ends.
--- End quote ---
As brandon stated, this is pure theory. In practice, it is a very different situation. Ever see an analog stick without jitter reduction and smoothing algorithms? You can leave the stick without touching it and the cursor bounces all over the place. This is because the analog values are sloppy and don't remain constant. They also change with temperature.
--- Quote --- Where as Optical, is Digital.. and its resolution, is based on taking "samples per time unit". The higher the sample rate,
the higher the Resolution. Digital will always be inferior to the original analog values. But at a certain level, you are
taking so many samples per time unit... that the human senses, might never be able to tell the difference.
--- End quote ---
This comment turned my brain inside out. This is NOT AT ALL how optical works. It is a dead 1:1 reckoning with the angular position of the control knob. The higher the CPR of the optical encoder, the more discrete angles of rotation the device can convey to the system. This translates DIRECTLY to the number of linear positions which may be accurately represented over any given portion of the knobs rotation. There is absolutely no time base involved. The only sampling is done by the interface (which can be initiated by an interrupt, so it's instant the moment the value changes). If an interface is too slow, or poorly coded, it results in lost or missed steps. That's why a dedicated, modern interface is important and why old mouse controller IC's used in certain HAPP trackballs show issues.
I'll also add that Analog, by it's very nature, requires the same amount of sampling and far more processing time to get anything close to being accurate.
--- Quote ---Even mini-pots in Thumb-Stick gamepads, rarely go bad, to the typical household gamer.
--- End quote ---
It's literally the biggest killer of controllers. Replacements are sold everywhere for specifically that reason.
--- Quote --- As a former manager at an Arcade, I have replaced bad pots in these machines. But many of these machines
were between 10 to 20 yrs old... and once you replaced one, you didnt have to worry about doing that again,
for another decade or so (unless you got a defective pot).
--- End quote ---
I don't know how long you were at that gig, but there's no way that a pot in a popular game lasted that long. Maybe in a pedal controller, but not one in a game like Circus, Avalanch or Breakout. I used to play those and often ran into poorly maintained machines with flaky pots. All it takes is one dead or "noisy" spot for things to go haywire and make them unplayable, resulting in lost quarters and pissed-off players. Why do you think Arkanoid went to the optical control in the first place? It's because those pots were a costly maintenance PITA for operators and it was a selling point.
--- Quote --- As a Note, I will add... that a lot of the pot based controllers, used Gearing with these pots. They were rarely
direct-drive... such was likely was the case, with the Pot for Pong. The gearing allowed more of the Pots
values to be utilized, thus, upping the resolution/values possible.
--- End quote ---
Maybe in a pedal or joystick controller, but never in a knob controller. And, you just contradicted your own statement that the pot's values are "infinite". If they were, one would be able to get any range of values on any portion of the rotation without gearing.
--- Quote ---This is sort of a dishonest take. You see... any "Resistance" that you add to an Optical spinner... is still going to
wear down. And in fact, depending on what you use for the resistance friction (and how much friction that you choose to apply)...
it might wear down far faster than any Pot ever would.
--- End quote ---
This is a "strawman". First of all, the correct materials will likely out-last the bearings in the unit and can easily be replaced even if it didn't. Secondly, the resistance aspect has nothing to do with the operation of the device as a functional control. Pots turn to useless junk once they begin to cease working perfectly. Why do you think every potentiometer manufacturer gives a rating for the number of turns? Some very expensive ones have huge ratings, while cheaper ones are much less. But they all have a fixed lifespan due to the mechanical contact of the wiper, which grinds away and leaves that conductive debris inside.
--- Quote ---Furthermore, both the Pot and the Optical spinners... would likely have far less resistance than a Geared spinner.
--- End quote ---
Balderdash. It all depends on the mechanism one adds to said spinner to achieve whatever resistance one is seeking. It can be made so tight that you can barely even move it by hand, not that you would want to do that.
--- Quote --- But all of that is besides the point... Because the only Breakout games that use Pots, are mostly the older
1970s or earlier... black and white, arcade games.
--- End quote ---
Because the control cares about color :dizzy:
I will always agree that original controls are the best at replicating what was used, because that was what was used. But we live in reality and no-one is going to put a 40-year old geared Arkanoid spinner on anything but an original (or dedicated replica) Arkanoid machine. Why? Because it will suck on any other game you try to play with it. Full stop.