E-Bikes!

[fallacy]

My friend got me into biking this summer, I never thought I liked biking that much; I always thought it was too hard to get up hills and your ass, wrist and back get sore after a little bit on a bike. I bought a new bike anyway and we would explore different trails and get lost. It was hard at the start but still fun, I have built up my leg muscles to the point now where a 20 mile ride does not phase me anymore and I am getting kind of addicted to where I have to ride everyday.

I want an E-bike now because the tech is so cool but OMG going down this rabbit whole is overwhelming. There are sooo… many brands and sooo…. many different styles and different tec, all trying to combine software hardware and man into the perfect fusion of a biking machine. The worst part is you can not try most of them out. You are lucky if your bike shops in your area decide to carry one brand and actually have that bike built and not sold so you can try it out. I will probably end up with a garage full of different E-bikes. The only thing I know right now is I want a Mid-Drive motor not a rear Hub motor like most of the cheaper E-bikes have. I also want the bike to be light and feel more like a regular bike.

I was looking at this one which meets all my requirements https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-vado-sl-5-0-eq/p/154892?color=263681-154892
Specialized Turbo Vado SL 5.0 EQ
Specialized - is the company brand
Turbo - Stand for Electric bike
Vado - means urban flat bar bike
SL - means super light at 33 pounds not the 60 plus pounds most E-bikes are
5.0 - spec it gives you a headshok, upgraded brakes, 12 speed drivetrain, carbon fork which is less weight
EQ - means Equipped giving you fenders and a rack

The mid drive motor gives you 2x the power, so for any force you put on the pedal it doubles it for you. The result is it does not feel like the bike is pulling you along with its motor, it feels like you were given a strength and agility buff.

No bike store has this bike in stock and it is even sold out online.

[pbj]

I rode around on one last summer in New Mexico and it was fun as hell.  Went up and down steep hills without issue.  Must have been a mid-drive because it mostly gave your pedaling a boost.  Because of the weird weight distribution, and my lack of experience, I did have to hop off a couple times to get up particularly steep hills, but you just engaged the throttle and let it pull itself as I walked alongside it.

I spent a lot of time thinking about buying one.  I used to live three blocks away from a paved bayou trail that would have taken me straight to work.  Unfortunately, there were several bridges and a freeway intersection that would have had you crossing at ground level in Houston rush hour traffic.  My current situation is even worse now but it’s absurd that I sit in traffic surrounded by the same cars every day.

 

[fallacy]

That would be ideal being able to go to work or run errands on your bike. But I don't like to be in the street as little as possible. I am also not quite sure how to secure it in front of a store since all locks can be broken. I just so happen to be next to a lot of paved trails by my house that cut through the city and have a underpass walkway on every street.

[Xiaou2]

If you cant bring your bike into the building you work at...  its likely not a good idea to leave it outside,
unattended, for more than a 15min span.

 I live in a mid sized city.  Its not particularly crime ridden...  Though, there are some really bad spots...
some streets where shooting occur regularly.

 At one time, I was living about a minutes drive, from the center of downtown...  in a tiny apartment on top of
an Asian grocery store.  Rent was dirt cheap, but the intersection traffic noise was unbearably awful.

 Someone had locked their bike up to the parking lot railing... and maybe a night later... the front tire was
missing.  By the end of the week... almost everything except the main frame, was missing.

 For whatever reason, the thief,  of multiple thieves, decided not to break the lock, and just to strip parts off
of it.

 Its one thing to lose a cheap bike... but quite another, to potentially lose an expensive e-bike.


 Not sure how easy it is to make them... or if you can find them pre-made... but Id bet that motor powered
roller blades, would be a better option, in many cases.

 At one point in my youth, I bladed to work a bunch of times.  The effort was similar to a bike, because you
are not trying to move a heavy metal frame around.  I was surprised how fast I was able to get those
things going.  Not all blades are equal though.  You want the highest quality bearings, for the least
amount of friction... as well as need to clean them often, or performance will take a huge nose dive.

 I will say, that I wasnt that fond of how much the blades had to extend outwards.. especially when
having to use the street, rather than a sidewalk.


 Anyway... If you put on a backpack... you could place a good sized battery in the lower part of the bag,
and still have plenty of storage space left over.   And since you are only moving your own body mass...
the battery would likely last a lot longer than an ebike.

 You would also need to make a brake system... because stopping at the speed I imagine you might be
able to travel on motor powered blades, would be quite a challenge.

[Gilrock]

I ride 90+ miles a week but I only get to ride twice a week.  But its a real bike.  The only time I consider an e-bike acceptable is when you have a wife and husband and one of them can't keep up with the other so the slow one rides an e-bike.  The rest of you realize that every time you pass regular cyclists they are laughing inside at you.

[pbj]

I ride 90+ miles a week but I only get to ride twice a week.  But its a real bike.  The only time I consider an e-bike acceptable is when you have a wife and husband and one of them can't keep up with the other so the slow one rides an e-bike. 

Imagine gate keeping a children's toy on a forum dedicated to children's toys.

The rest of you realize that every time you pass regular cyclists they are laughing inside at you.

"Cyclists laughing on the inside" have officially displaced "Europeans" at the top of the "List of Opinions I Do Not Care About."

Thanks for the laugh, though.  I needed it.

 

[fallacy]

Ya I don't really understand the E-bikes should only be for old people type of logic a lot of people have. Has anyone ever said a pure motorcycle should only be for old people ever? I guess it comes from a place of jealousy, maybe you feel they are trying to deceive you into thinking they are a better biker than you. At the end of the day if you are using it as a commuter then maybe you don't want to be dead tired when you reach your destination or maybe it is more fun to touch grass and not look at ever steep hill and saying f**k my life.

[RandyT]

"Cyclists laughing on the inside" have officially displaced "Europeans" at the top of the "List of Opinions I Do Not Care About."

QFT!

Has anyone ever said a pure motorcycle should only be for old people ever?

I'm an "old person".  I ride motorcycles, ATVs and gas-powered scooters.  I bought a fat-tire, full-suspension e-bike last year. 

The first ride out was a 15-mile trek on minimal assist.  I was tired when I returned, but not run through the wringer (or dead) as I might have been otherwise.  E-bikes are basically "electric scooters/mopeds" you can pedal if you wish to, or need to if you run out of juice.  I charge it from solar so it's free to ride as much as I like, unlike my other toys.  It's great to just enjoy nature without the gas fumes and noise, and if I'm just going a mile up the road to a buddy's place, I don't even need to pedal it.  No insurance or registration required either (at least in my state.)

I've even let a few people take mine for a spin and everyone who has wants one.  Any cyclist who objects to e-bikes is probably just upset that they will no longer be the only ones who can tick off car drivers by riding down the middle of the damn road.

[fallacy]

I tried a fat tire bike, I tried the Aventon Aventure because Electric Bike Report gave it the best Fat Tire Bike of 2022. I am not sold on Fat Tire bikes, it does not feel like I am riding a real bike; not as maneuverable or as light as I would want it to be. Might have a different opinion if I took it off pavement. I think peoples opinion will change on E-bikes in the coming years, they have only really come out full circle in the last few years and a lot of people don't like or understand new things.

[RandyT]

Mine will do 30mph with very little effort and all the roads where I live have soft sand on the edge of the pavement.  No way that I'd have anything less than 4" wide tires under me at that speed and with those conditions.  I don't heal as fast as I used to.

But I'd have gone for something more conventional if I was using it for city commuting.

The one you are looking at is definitely a nicely integrated machine, but $5k?   That's what I paid for my like-new low-miles Vulcan 1700!  Mine was an import from Amazon which cost about a third of that.  You have to take the specs with a grain of salt with these, but I fell in love with the style of the bike.  Wasn't sure it would be very good when I ordered it, but honestly, it was way better than expected.  I didn't really need to, but I replaced the seat out-of-the-box with something with more cushion and am now happy with it. 

If I had any advice to give (again, grain of salt) if you are interested in one, don't get a Walmart bike and likewise, don't get more bike than you need or expect to use.  It's very easy to overspend on these right now and the very cheap ones are terrible because most of the cost is the battery.

[fallacy]

Well half the problem is the Mid-Drive motors seem to cost $3000 and up, Rear Hub you can spend $1600- $2000. Mid-Drive are just not being mass produced like that at the moment so you still have to pay a premium.

[Howard_Casto]

I kind of want to get one.   I could use the exercise.   The only problem would be dodging all the meth heads and coal trucks trying to run me off the road.

[RandyT]

Well half the problem is the Mid-Drive motors seem to cost $3000 and up, Rear Hub you can spend $1600- $2000. Mid-Drive are just not being mass produced like that at the moment so you still have to pay a premium.

I get the feeling that mid-drives, as much as they are better, will be high-priced for quite some time.  The gearing in those is more complex and needs to be a lot beefier in order to get any of their advantages.  It's also a luxury feature which the masses won't adopt due to it's cost, so no real economy of scale.

But that's kind of what I was talking about.  I always heard that mid-drive is the way to go, and after the sticker shock I almost gave up on the idea of an e-bike.  As it turns out, the hub drives are just fine for the average person.  If I went for a mid-drive bike, I probably would have severely overspent based on my expected use for the bike.

[fallacy]

It is not so much a power thing between the two motors it is just more of a feeling that you are one with the bike. With a hub motor usually you start pedaling and then you actually feel the thrust of the rear motor engaging and pulling you along. With  a mid drive not only is the weight of the motor right under you balancing out the bike, whatever force you apply to the pedal it will just return double that to the chain giving you the feeling that you are just twice as strong then you really are. If I am buying an E-Bike, being lied to like that is essential. I don't know I could just buy an electric motorcycle if I just wanted to hit the throttle and go. 

[javeryh]

What is an E-bike?  A regular bike with an electric motor?  Do you pedal or ride it or both where you can pedal but then the motor kicks in if you need help?

[fallacy]

Its a regular bike with a chain and gear shifting but then you have a motor with a battery. Usually you have 3 to 5 modes of assistance in your pedaling. The harder mode the less it will assist you and the longer your battery will last. You can turn it off and just use it as a regular bike; a lot of these bikes are like 60 plus pounds so it might not even be a good option to turn it off completely.

What we are discussing is how they go about implementing this in the most effective way. It is like comparing the original iPhone with the iPhone 13 today and saying look they basically do the same things, F**K no they don't.


RandyT you could probably just add your bike to this guys pile because the one you bought just uses all the same parts as the rest. Not saying its bad it is just scratching the surface of E-Bike tec.

[BadMouth]

Two E-bikes passed me on the walking/biking path yesterday.  I'm not as annoyed by them as I want to be.  Motorized vehicles are not permitted, but as long as they are quiet and slow there isn't much to complain about.  Neither they or the regular cyclists give any warning before they pass.

[dmckean]

I like the idea of e-bikes especially with my lung problems. I'm probably limited to a range of 10 miles on my regular bike but I could go much farther on an e-bike.

[RandyT]

RandyT you could probably just add your bike to this guys pile because the one you bought just uses all the same parts as the rest. Not saying its bad it is just scratching the surface of E-Bike tec.

My question to you is do you or do you ever expect to ride your bike on treacherous mountain trails?  I have watched videos of some of this and am utterly amazed by the folks who do this and yes, on e-bikes.  I absolutely get why one would want a mid-motor for this kind of activity.  One fraction of a second where it doesn't feel like the bike is exactly linked to the intentions of the rider can have dire consequences.

That said, this isn't that big of a concern to the other 99+% of bike owners who would love to have a bike which would help them up hills, which helps get them to ride longer and more often.  And right now, the reason they aren't more popular than they are, is due to the price.

As for them using the same technology, I'm not sure why you are inferring that this is some kind of problem.  The guy in the video even recommended several of the bikes, which weren't really the same, btw, except in his eyes due to whatever is coloring his opinions of them.  Heck, the one I bought weighs 80lbs, likely heavier than some in his "pile", which I like because weight means stability at speed.  It's also a tall bike.  Granted, I'm of average height, but if it didn't have a throttle control, I'd have some difficulty and I'll walk before I ride a step-through (they used to be called "girl's bikes" .)  But for that, it handles rough surfaces better than any bicycle I've ridden.

But all of that aside, there are reasons why there are so many bikes using similar technology.  The first is that they are obviously selling.  Moreover, like virtually every conventional bike nowadays, they are made in China.  The primary components are made in massive government subsidized factories and smaller brand companies all draw from the same limited pool of parts.  It's also tech which works well for the mass market and can meet a price point once the cost of the battery is considered.   

With the exception of the battery, I can relatively inexpensively upgrade and/or repair just about any of the components on my bike.  Dead display? Burned controller? Burned motor?  Hydraulic brakes? No problem.  The parts are everywhere and for not a lot of money because of that economy of scale.  It's very much like the Chinese scooter market.

Anyway, I've rambled too long on the subject.  I just don't want people to think that they need to spend thousands on an e-bike to have fun with one, any more than one needs a Mercedes just to get groceries. 

[leapinlew]

You guys remember the mechanical doping scandal a few years back? This did a pretty good job explaining it

[fallacy]

lol hacks! They probably have to check every bike now

[fallacy]

My question to you is do you or do you ever expect to ride your bike on treacherous mountain trails?  I have watched videos of some of this and am utterly amazed by the folks who do this and yes, on e-bikes.  I absolutely get why one would want a mid-motor for this kind of activity.  One fraction of a second where it doesn't feel like the bike is exactly linked to the intentions of the rider can have dire consequences.

treacherous mountain trails? No. Packed gravel trails sure. You need a Mountain E-bike if you want to get into that hobby, a lot of the mountain e-bikes seem to go from 7k to 10k. I was looking into the Surface604 Shred because they are using a hub motor keeping the price down to like $2600. They basically dialed the hub motor to respond to the force of your pedal and not just an on and off state.


I watch videos of people going down these mountains and it looks fun as hell but it is kind of like kayaking down a river. All I see is danger around every action.

[fallacy]

Check this crazy bike out. It looks like something Apple would make if they got into making E-Bikes

[RandyT]

Check this crazy bike out. It looks like something Apple would make if they got into making E-Bikes

Crazy is right.  Looks like some conceptual artist designed this thing and when told by the engineering team that it would have to have a tiny motor, very low capacity battery, no suspension and a high price tag he/she said "no problem"

But seriously, it looks like a very good example of form-over-function and seems to be targeting a very niche market.

[fallacy]

It is all science, how light can you make every part while still keeping its strength and power. Does this bike look like it succeeds in some areas but fails in others? Like I think he mentioned they were not even tubeless tires so that's a weak point. How strong and light is that motor I don't know. This bike looks like it could have been in the background of Back to the Future 2. That part in Back to the Future 2 when Marty fell in the lake and came out and he hit a button and his jacket started drying; I wish they had the same computer voice over for when he switched gears on this bike.

[pbj]

seems to be targeting a very niche market.

 

If there’s one thing Randy knows, it’s crazed communities of niche markets.

[RandyT]

Does this bike look like it succeeds in some areas but fails in others?

Well, a belt system (as this seems to have?) to gear for more hill climbing power is fine, but you can't do it without a loss of speed. A lower voltage battery, like the one this uses, already has that as a challenge. Weight reduction is an admirable goal but dropping weight by removing functional and desirable parts of the bike (battery capacity, fenders, racks, motor capacity, suspension components, etc.) isn't that much of a feat.  While the frame design may be strong and light, I have seen no data for it's survivability in a crash.  We tried something similar with cars in the 70's during the "gas crisis".  What we ended up with was lighter, no-frills, no power vehicles which didn't last and killed a lot of people who might have survived in something which preceded them.  But they were better on gas!  This is a little different, but it's your investment that's at stake instead.  The hospital bills are a constant in this equation .     

Your question has me wondering now what it is that is actually being achieved by the offering.  I'm struggling to find anything about it that I would consider a technological "step forward" because it gives up too much for nice looks and low weight.  But if those two things are the most important features for whomever is looking at them, then that's all that matters.  Thus, my view that it's a niche offering.

Maybe the best way to look at any e-bike is to work your way backward from the question "what is an e-bike?"  How an individual answers that question will ultimately vary, but it will invariably start with a bike with an electric motor which assists the rider.  It would make sense that the better and longer the bike can perform the most basic task for which they are meant, the more capable it is.  From that point, it's a matter of what you are willing to give up for some other desired attribute, be it cost-savings, range, speed, comfort, etc.   But at some point, the realities of cost and physics will kick in and you will end up with something which is unaffordable and/or does poorly at delivering the core functionality. 

The enemy of true innovation in e-vehicles of any type is battery technology.  Until safe, inexpensive, lightweight and high-power-density rechargeable batteries are plentiful, there's only so much more you can do.

[Xiaou2]

Battery Longevity,  is an important factor in these devices.

 How long is the Warranty on the Battery?

 How long before a full charge, only gets you 3 blocks away from your doorsetp?

 How many charges before that battery is useless,  and needs to be replaced?

 Is the battery Replaceable?  Or is it Custom + Chipped ?  (only available from the factory.. No 3rd party batteries allowed?)

 What is the cost of Replacing the Battery?


 What are the chances of the Batteries exploding into a massive ball of fire... roasting your Balls into charcoal,
or setting the house on fire?


 If you search, you can find a few vids of Electric cars bursting into flames.  In one video, the car was charging at a
charging station... with like 2 other cars parked next to it... also charging.   The car went up in flames so quickly, that
the car next to it, was not able to fully back away in time... and it caught fire as well.

 In another video,  there were probably 8 busses next to each other.  I believe this one was in China.  One bus burst
into flames... and within mere minutes, all 8 busses were completely toasted.

[RandyT]

One of the better options currently for batteries is LiFePo4 chemistry.  They can charge very quickly, are relatively safe, typically have high discharge rates and have a very high cycle count (usually 2000+).  But everything is a trade-off.   It also has lower power density, and is thus bulkier and heavier.  They also tend to be more costly.

Until they come up with something which ticks all the boxes, even renewable energy as a sole source is a bit of a pipe dream.  The ubiquitous Li-Ion took decades to get us to where we are now.  I can imagine decades more before it is replaced with anything new.

[Zebidee]

It may take less than decades.

Right now, there's a lot of people researching better and safer batteries. Better batteries will not only be great for our e-bikes, but also our cars and power grids and everything else. Save the planet stuff, the future is electric and renewables.

Meanwhile, stock prices for lithium miners keep going up.

There is some particularly exciting research going on into solid electrolyte for lithium ion batteries. This would be, for almost all intents and purposes, 100% safe.

In addition to significantly improving battery, solid state electrolytes means they can use lithium for the anode. This means more energy density, thus more powerful and/or lighter cells.

[RandyT]

It may take less than decades.

Right now, there's a lot of people researching better and safer batteries. Better batteries will not only be great for our e-bikes, but also our cars and power grids and everything else. Save the planet stuff, the future is electric and renewables.

The research phase of the Lithium battery was happening in the mid-70's, or approximately 30 years before they became widely available, reasonably priced and relatively safe (they really still are not that safe...ask Samsung and people who vape )  Even if they come up with something amazing in the lab, it will be many years before it is brought to market and manufacturing is ramped up to supply demand.  Large companies don't jump ship quickly either, when they already have the manufacturing facilities in place and they are still able to make money.  I remember well the transition from NiMh to Li-Ion.  It spanned years and was a very gradual shift due to the higher costs involved.  Many portable tools used NiMh well after portable electronic devices shifted to Li-Ion.  You can't sell a drill with a $300 battery in it, at least not to very many

So will a new technology take the same amount of time?  I guess it depends.  If it's proven, easily produced and dirt cheap to manufacture, they will be falling over themselves to get it to market.  But if it's something which only works on the surface of Mars and requires a container in a lab which mimics those conditions, it'll NEVER see the light of day in consumer goods.  I'm not saying that there aren't some smart people working on the problem and that we don't have better technology now to help it along.  But very bad things can happen with this type of tech when it's rushed to market and even when it's not as in the case of Li-Ion.  It took quite a while just for the average consumer to understand and accept the risks of using them in order to receive their benefits.

[fallacy]

I don't know anything about batteries. Why are double AA still being made the same way from 40 years ago and why do the rechargeable  ones seem to discharge at a much faster rate than the non rechargeable ones? Look how far they have come with LED lights. If you would have told me 20 years ago they were going to come out with lights that hardly use any power, produce no heat and never burn out I would have thought you were smoking crack.

[Zebidee]

I believe it will take less than a decade to get solid electrolyte lithium batteries into things like our cars - because we need it now. Climate change demands it. Companies are making them now, all it needs is for the cost balance to shift.

Also, in a world where people get a new car more than once every decade, it will be easier to transition to the new tech.

I used to work in innovation and industry development/policy, and remember talking to excited researchers who were developing Bluetooth and wireless LANs (different groups of people) in the late 1990's. It all seemed like stuff of fantasy at the time. Now these techs are everyday and all around us, and have been for a long time.

People can become fast adopters when there is a compelling reason to.

As for AA batteries... they are a standard but they do change, all that stays the same is the package size and voltage.

[dmckean]

I don't know anything about batteries. Why are double AA still being made the same way from 40 years ago and why do the rechargeable  ones seem to discharge at a much faster rate than the non rechargeable ones? Look how far they have come with LED lights. If you would have told me 20 years ago they were going to come out with lights that hardly use any power, produce no heat and never burn out I would have thought you were smoking crack.

Lithium batteries being able to discharge at a faster rate (provide more power) was one of their design goals. Alkaline batteries were designed to be shelf stable for more than a decade. A lot of money went into both of those projects and they will not be easy to best.

[RandyT]

I believe it will take less than a decade to get solid electrolyte lithium batteries into things like our cars - because we need it now. Climate change demands it. Companies are making them now, all it needs is for the cost balance to shift.

Not everyone, not even all climate scientists, support the idea of "climate change".  One little blip on the 9,941°F surface of that ball of fire in the sky and we pay for it no matter what happens on this planet.  So "compelling" is relative.  Probably more compelling is the possibility of running out of other fuel sources as the population increases.  Fortunately, there is still some time with regard to that issue to find a solution.

Also, in a world where people get a new car more than once every decade, it will be easier to transition to the new tech.

Unless there are some drastic changes for the better coming down the pike, that world is gone...at least for a while.

As for AA batteries... they are a standard but they do change, all that stays the same is the package size and voltage.

That's what drives me nuts about lithium batteries.  That 3.7v makes them difficult to wedge into the existing 1.5v battery standard.  By the time circuitry is added into the battery casing to make it compatible, the amount of space for storage ends up making it mostly moot to bother with.  It almost always requires a special design or some other creative solutions to utilize.

[Zebidee]

Wow    I didn't expect you to be a climate change denier Randy.

For the record, there are also people out there that seriously believe the Earth is flat. Seriously 

Whether you believe in climate change or not, it is coming, and we don't have much time to do anything about it. There is a mountain of evidence. This truth is accepted by the vast majority these days.

That means, for the vast majority, it is a "compelling reason" to do things differently.

For the record too, we have plenty of oil and coal and gas reserves. We will not run out before we have trashed the planet.

I predict that, if climate change doesn't kill us anyway, we will run out of food first.

[RandyT]

Wow    I didn't expect you to be a climate change denier Randy.

I'm smart enough to say "I don't know with any certainty" and I honestly can't believe that people can be so dim as to continue to believe others who lie to us seemingly without limit or repercussion.  Remember, you are taking the word of someone who is unable to accurately predict the weather 3 days in advance, yet they unashamedly make predictions regarding it 25 years into the future.  Did I mention that most of their incomes depend on taking an "accepted" stance on the subject?

What I do know is that there are graphs which correlate rising temperatures directly with increased solar activity for the time in question.  Anyone who thinks anything we do can counteract solar deviation either has a grandiose sense of their own abilities, or they should probably limit their interaction with humanity to serving tacos.

[danny_galaga]

 I live in a mid sized city.  Its not particularly crime ridden...  Though, there are some really bad spots...
some streets where shooting occur regularly.
 

And that's not PARTICULARLY crime ridden? 😲

[Zebidee]

Regardless of how you feel about climate change, responding to that, and the general trend/push towards renewables, is driving a revolution in battery technology. It is not just cars.

Better batteries mean renewables become a better option for our power grids, as it is easier to balance the load demands with variable supply (wind doesn't blow all the time, sun doesn't shine at night, etc.).

E-bikes are a part of that too, as they encourage people to travel smarter. They are a great alternative to jumping in a car.

[RandyT]

Regardless of how you feel about climate change, responding to that, and the general trend/push towards renewables, is driving a revolution in battery technology. It is not just cars.

Better batteries mean renewables become a better option for our power grids, as it is easier to balance the load demands with variable supply (wind doesn't blow all the time, sun doesn't shine at night, etc.).

You are preaching to the choir.  I would love to see better and cheaper options for battery technology. I have a self-installed 2.4kw solar bank which is not attached to the grid, so it also has a 600Ah battery.  In fact, I'm typing this on a system using that very same stored energy. I'm all for a "revolution" in storage technology, not due to any manufactured crisis, but because it would fill an existing need in the market and help people to reduce reliance on an increasingly fragile and overloaded main grid.  The problem right now is that renewables still rely on fossil fuels to fill the gaps in production/availability, sometimes comically so.  One of the most humorous examples of this are some remote EV charging stations running purely from giant diesel generators.

Another problem is that what works well on a large scale, might translate poorly to smaller form factors.  I.e., what makes sense for a massive solar/wind farm could end up being utterly useless for EVs, including e-bikes.  So, there are many fronts in this game, all of which will likely require different, possibly unrelated solutions.

My biggest cause for concern is how it's being carried out.  I'll try to illustrate this with an analogy/fictional story.

=> 

On a far-away world, the population is told by its overlords that the world will be coming to an end in 20 of their years (which may or may not be true) so they will all be compelled to pack their belongings, discarding everything but the very essential ones, for the trip to the new world.  The transports to pick them up for the first leg of the journey have arrived.  The people don't have to leave right now, but they are warned that eventually all of the current options for sustaining themselves will rapidly become unavailable, so it's in their best interest to get on the transports.  Many do, believing that it is the best course of action, leaving the existence they spent their lives creating behind them. 

When the transports arrive at the launch site, its passengers are greeted with the sight of a research facility, housing the planets best scientists and a shoddily built encampment, obviously not sufficient for the entire population.  There are some scaffolds and equipment, but there are no ships to take them to the new world.  Life at the camp is difficult.  Resources are scarce there, even though their planet still has plenty to support them.  They are told that the reason for the scarcity is the break-down of the supply chains, because those who worked them now live in the camps.  The only things their overlords (who do not reside in the camps) seem to be able to offer the suffering inhabitants are drip-fed promises that their scientists are on the verge of a break-through, and that ship construction will begin soon.

Meanwhile, the ramifications of this lack of preparedness start to take their toll on the well-being of the inhabitants.  Starvation, crime and illness are starting to become a daily occurrence in the camps.  The once unburdened scientists, happy to go about their day trying to improve the lives of the planet's inhabitants, now find it difficult to think of anything other than the horrors outside the walls of their facility...

<=

I know that whoever reads this story did not write it, because I did.  Can you tell me how it ends?  Are there any possible parallels with the road we are on?  Do you think there was a better way?

E-bikes are a part of that too, as they encourage people to travel smarter. They are a great alternative to jumping in a car.

They are.  But their success is bound to the free-market.   The health benefits alone are reason enough, but when fuel cost savings, convenience in metropolitan areas where gridlock and parking are issues, etc... are factored in, they really start to become a viable fair-weather transportation option.  But if you are thinking of buying one (or any EV at moment) because it will "help save the planet", you could be buying it for the wrong reason and you actually need to use it often to make a difference, be it real or perceived.

[Mike A]

Please bloviate some more.

[RandyT]

Please bloviate some more.

If you insist.  Here's some other bloviations you might enjoy (your definition, not mine.)

[pbj]

You ok, Randy?  That was weird, even for you.

I'm partial to the frog and the scorpion, myself.

[RandyT]

You ok, Randy?  That was weird, even for you.

Which part?     Is "You're weird" really the first thing to enter your mind when you read it?

I'm partial to the frog and the scorpion, myself.

That's a good one.  Even applicable.  But I can't know for sure why you brought it up without context. 

[Zebidee]

Frogs... well, I think we are like those frogs in a pot on the stove. The heat is on and the temperature is rising, while we pretend nothing is happening.

Maybe we need our scorpion "buddies" to help us see the reality.

[RandyT]

Frogs... well, I think we are like those frogs in a pot on the stove. The heat is on and the temperature is rising, while we pretend nothing is happening.

Maybe we need our scorpion "buddies" to help us see the reality.

What if the scorpions are the ones controlling the burner valve?  I mean, if they're capable of crossing into different parables, there's no telling what they can do.  Or are frogs and scorpions intrinsically linked, like good and evil, one unable to exist without the other?  As it was the nature of the frog to be blind to the scorpion's ways, causing their mutual demise, which one is evil? Both?  Neither? Or just the frog for allowing the situation to exist?

And what if it is the nature of the pot itself to heat up and cool and then heat up again, in cycles and forever?  Is it necessary to involve the scorpion at all, knowing it can only frighten the frogs who were in no danger before?  Is it only to mask the pot's true nature so the frogs will jump out and into the frying pan?

Wait, what were we talking about again? 

[Zebidee]

  Muddled mixed metaphors make messy messages?

[danny_galaga]

Wow    I didn't expect you to be a climate change denier Randy.

I'm smart enough to say "I don't know with any certainty" and I honestly can't believe that people can be so dim as to continue to believe others who lie to us seemingly without limit or repercussion.  Remember, you are taking the word of someone who is unable to accurately predict the weather 3 days in advance, yet they unashamedly make predictions regarding it 25 years into the future.  Did I mention that most of their incomes depend on taking an "accepted" stance on the subject?

What I do know is that there are graphs which correlate rising temperatures directly with increased solar activity for the time in question.  Anyone who thinks anything we do can counteract solar deviation either has a grandiose sense of their own abilities, or they should probably limit their interaction with humanity to serving tacos.

Just thought I'd mention that sometimes if people have differing ideas on a subject, then sometimes certain people will assign the same weight to each argument.

Example 1)

Person A - 2+2=4

Person B - 2+2=5

[Xiaou2]

Frogs... well, I think we are like those frogs in a pot on the stove. The heat is on and the temperature is rising, while we pretend nothing is happening.

Maybe we need our scorpion "buddies" to help us see the reality.

 Climate Denier ?!   >_<   We have another  Lemming  that has accepted the Mass Media Drivel,
without any Questioning at all.   You do realize, that Scientists always Question everything... right?

 You do realize... that the Scientists of the past, used to think that it was safe for Children to handle
Lead and Mercury, with their bare hands?   That Asbestos, was a safe and miraculous insulation
material... right?    That BAD Science was questioned... and was proven  Bad / Wrong.


 When I was a little boy in school, they played a film about how dire everything was... and how every house
would have solar panels,  and every house would be growing their own food in their gardens.

 That was in the 70s.

 The Radicals have been screeching about  "Global Warming"  for so long, its not even funny... and guess what?
The average temperatures have been getting colder and colder, every year.  That is why they have to change
the term from  "Global Warming"  into   "Climate Change".

 - The so called  "Science"   has been littered with fraudulent data,  on purpose.
 - Any Scientists that have disputed the bogus data,  has been attacked, and career destroyed.
 - The Earth regularly released Methane, CO2, and many other gases... in MASS quantities, through natural
seepage.  Often through Volcanic activity... but not limited to it.

 - The Earth is probably releasing more natural Methane, CO2, etc.. into the atmosphere, in 5 yrs time, than
the entire history of man kinds pollution efforts, since the dawn of our existence.

 - Every older Climate Model has Failed to predict the temperature targets.
 - Every older climate model, has completely NEGLECTED solar activity, as a source of changes in global heat.
IE: Solar Flares, Solar Activity, Solar activity Cycles, Radiation, and Magnetic forces

 - Virtually every ECO based solution, has proven to be ineffective, costly, and often doing more damages than
was supposed to repair.

 - The Modern Military probably devours more fuel and energy in a year, than every standard citizens uses
combined.

 - Firing off a SINGLE particle experiment at CERN... probably takes about an entire Cities worth of Energy.
(and they have virtually nothing to show for decades of efforts)

 - Nobody dares calculate the Fuel and energy usage of Nasa, either.

 - The Presidential feet, consisting of countless SUVs of agents, his personal Jet, Helicopter, and the Military
vehicles that also help protected him, and many other govt. officials... does not bother these Hypocrites.

 - Big OBESE Eco-Propaganda figures, are seen with giant mansions... using only a room or two.. and have
no issues heating and cooling them... even if they are not even being occupied for months at a time.
These cats, dont live in tiny-houses.   They dont power their life with Solar Batteries, nor limit their
consumption, at all.

 - The Elite,  want the Lemming Slave class, eating Bugs.  Trust me.. they are NEVER going to be eating
bugs themselves.   It is only for people like yourself... whom are easily brainwashed into accepting it.

 - When changing from standard Lead Based Soldier to Lead-Free soldier... it was discovered that the new
soldier does not flow properly... and creates both bad soldier joints, as well as micro-spikes, that break
off due to temperature changes and or vibrations.  They fall onto the PCBs.. and cause Electrical Shorts.

 As a result... you now have at least a 15% chance of buying a BRAND NEW electronic device, and it being
completely dead, right out of the box.   And if it survives that... you will be lucky if your new device will
survive past the 3 yr marker.   Id guess that about 65% or more electronics, are failing in less than a
3 yr timespan.   Look at all of the LCD TVs that do not have cracked screens... out on the curbs.
Mine had less than 30hrs of use, before it decided to pass away.   No power light.  Completely Deceased.

 Why do you think that all of the electronic warranties switched to a 1yr model?   Because they know it.
They knew it from day 1.   The ECO radicals figured that someone would have figured out a better
working solution by now... but that was over a decade ago... and they have not made Any progress
with the issues.

 Rather than a small trace amount of lead in soldier... in items that used to last over 2 decades
of usage...  we now have literally 1000 times the E-Waste, from these failed devices.  Think of all of the
materials, shipping fuel, manual labor (food energy costs + travel), waste delivery costs (trash trucks),
and material separation, partial recycling, and lot burial costs.  And that multiplication, is for every single
year,  that they choose to stick with the faulty Eco-Solution.

 - Interestingly enough... while they have a problem with lead getting into the environment they
have no problem Directly Injecting the most toxic Heavy Metal into a Humans Veins:  Mercury.
(Thimerosal)

 - In fact, it took ages before the Dental industry to pull Mercury from Dental Fillings... despite being
tone of PROOF that it was leeching into anyone that had them.   It probably took another decade,
before Dental offices finally stopped using Mercury fillings... because they wanted to use all of the
previous stock up... with no concern for the patients long term health issues.

 - Mercury is literally one of the most Toxic substances, for a human being to come in contact with.
It makes lead look like harmless Candy, comparatively.  Look up the Term "Mad Hatter", and why
it exists.


 There is actual "Climate Change".  Its natural, on an all natural cycle.  There are Radically bad periods, noted
throughout History.  Many past civilizations, left in ruins, and or vanished without a trace.  Places that
are Desert today... that used to be a lush green jungles.  The Poles have Flipped before.  And they are in the
process of flipping right now.


 Now... I used to be concerned about many of these things... As I too, bought the propaganda, that was fed to
me.  But over time... seeing evidence of the ECO partys corruption.  Seeing proof of falsified data.  Seeing how
Hypocritical these types actually are... etc..  Ive leaned to be FAR more skeptical about ANYTHING the
corrupted media, has puked out.

 IMO,  there are many things that deserve to be changed... such as,  the careful removal of Asbestos.
Lead Paint, from old houses.  Toxic Chemical spills / dump sites.  The Elimination of toxic chemicals in our
food supply.  Banning of disposable plastic drink containers... and going back to all-natural glass, which
will be cleaned and or recycled, after use.  Penalties for companies that make products that end up failing
within less than a certain window of time/usage.  Better public transport systems.

 The potential of digging down... and building apartments and businesses that are under-ground...
leaving the space above, to be green parks, recreational areas, natural hunting areas, and for food growth.
No more concrete parking lots, eating up space.  No more issues, with having to deal with heavy
snow removal, nor dangerous black-Ice ... as virtually all travel would also be under-ground.


 But the ECO Agenda, is far less about the Environment... and far more about Absolute Global power and
control.


 The Agenda pushers often use Emotion, rather than Logic and non-corrupted data.  Do not allow yourself
to be controlled by Emotional hot-buttons.  Take a deep breath, disconnect emotionally... and use logic,
and rational thought.  Get information from many different non-official sources, to compare against.

 Things are not what they seem.

[danny_galaga]

Frogs... well, I think we are like those frogs in a pot on the stove. The heat is on and the temperature is rising, while we pretend nothing is happening.

Maybe we need our scorpion "buddies" to help us see the reality.

 Climate Denier ?!   >_<   We have another  Lemming  that has accepted the Mass Media Drivel,
without any Questioning at all.   You do realize, that Scientists always Question everything... right?

 You do realize... that the Scientists of the past, used to think that it was safe for Children to handle
Lead and Mercury, with their bare hands?   That Asbestos, was a safe and miraculous insulation
material... right?    That BAD Science was questioned... and was proven  Bad / Wrong.


 When I was a little boy in school, they played a film about how dire everything was... and how every house
would have solar panels,  and every house would be growing their own food in their gardens.

 That was in the 70s.

 The Radicals have been screeching about  "Global Warming"  for so long, its not even funny... and guess what?
The average temperatures have been getting colder and colder, every year.  That is why they have to change
the term from  "Global Warming"  into   "Climate Change".

 - The so called  "Science"   has been littered with fraudulent data,  on purpose.
 - Any Scientists that have disputed the bogus data,  has been attacked, and career destroyed.
 - The Earth regularly released Methane, CO2, and many other gases... in MASS quantities, through natural
seepage.  Often through Volcanic activity... but not limited to it.

 - The Earth is probably releasing more natural Methane, CO2, etc.. into the atmosphere, in 5 yrs time, than
the entire history of man kinds pollution efforts, since the dawn of our existence.

 - Every older Climate Model has Failed to predict the temperature targets.
 - Every older climate model, has completely NEGLECTED solar activity, as a source of changes in global heat.
IE: Solar Flares, Solar Activity, Solar activity Cycles, Radiation, and Magnetic forces

 - Virtually every ECO based solution, has proven to be ineffective, costly, and often doing more damages than
was supposed to repair.

 - The Modern Military probably devours more fuel and energy in a year, than every standard citizens uses
combined.

 - Firing off a SINGLE particle experiment at CERN... probably takes about an entire Cities worth of Energy.
(and they have virtually nothing to show for decades of efforts)

 - Nobody dares calculate the Fuel and energy usage of Nasa, either.

 - The Presidential feet, consisting of countless SUVs of agents, his personal Jet, Helicopter, and the Military
vehicles that also help protected him, and many other govt. officials... does not bother these Hypocrites.

 - Big OBESE Eco-Propaganda figures, are seen with giant mansions... using only a room or two.. and have
no issues heating and cooling them... even if they are not even being occupied for months at a time.
These cats, dont live in tiny-houses.   They dont power their life with Solar Batteries, nor limit their
consumption, at all.

 - The Elite,  want the Lemming Slave class, eating Bugs.  Trust me.. they are NEVER going to be eating
bugs themselves.   It is only for people like yourself... whom are easily brainwashed into accepting it.

 - When changing from standard Lead Based Soldier to Lead-Free soldier... it was discovered that the new
soldier does not flow properly... and creates both bad soldier joints, as well as micro-spikes, that break
off due to temperature changes and or vibrations.  They fall onto the PCBs.. and cause Electrical Shorts.

 As a result... you now have at least a 15% chance of buying a BRAND NEW electronic device, and it being
completely dead, right out of the box.   And if it survives that... you will be lucky if your new device will
survive past the 3 yr marker.   Id guess that about 65% or more electronics, are failing in less than a
3 yr timespan.   Look at all of the LCD TVs that do not have cracked screens... out on the curbs.
Mine had less than 30hrs of use, before it decided to pass away.   No power light.  Completely Deceased.

 Why do you think that all of the electronic warranties switched to a 1yr model?   Because they know it.
They knew it from day 1.   The ECO radicals figured that someone would have figured out a better
working solution by now... but that was over a decade ago... and they have not made Any progress
with the issues.

 Rather than a small trace amount of lead in soldier... in items that used to last over 2 decades
of usage...  we now have literally 1000 times the E-Waste, from these failed devices.  Think of all of the
materials, shipping fuel, manual labor (food energy costs + travel), waste delivery costs (trash trucks),
and material separation, partial recycling, and lot burial costs.  And that multiplication, is for every single
year,  that they choose to stick with the faulty Eco-Solution.

 - Interestingly enough... while they have a problem with lead getting into the environment they
have no problem Directly Injecting the most toxic Heavy Metal into a Humans Veins:  Mercury.
(Thimerosal)

 - In fact, it took ages before the Dental industry to pull Mercury from Dental Fillings... despite being
tone of PROOF that it was leeching into anyone that had them.   It probably took another decade,
before Dental offices finally stopped using Mercury fillings... because they wanted to use all of the
previous stock up... with no concern for the patients long term health issues.

 - Mercury is literally one of the most Toxic substances, for a human being to come in contact with.
It makes lead look like harmless Candy, comparatively.  Look up the Term "Mad Hatter", and why
it exists.


 There is actual "Climate Change".  Its natural, on an all natural cycle.  There are Radically bad periods, noted
throughout History.  Many past civilizations, left in ruins, and or vanished without a trace.  Places that
are Desert today... that used to be a lush green jungles.  The Poles have Flipped before.  And they are in the
process of flipping right now.


 Now... I used to be concerned about many of these things... As I too, bought the propaganda, that was fed to
me.  But over time... seeing evidence of the ECO partys corruption.  Seeing proof of falsified data.  Seeing how
Hypocritical these types actually are... etc..  Ive leaned to be FAR more skeptical about ANYTHING the
corrupted media, has puked out.

 IMO,  there are many things that deserve to be changed... such as,  the careful removal of Asbestos.
Lead Paint, from old houses.  Toxic Chemical spills / dump sites.  The Elimination of toxic chemicals in our
food supply.  Banning of disposable plastic drink containers... and going back to all-natural glass, which
will be cleaned and or recycled, after use.  Penalties for companies that make products that end up failing
within less than a certain window of time/usage.  Better public transport systems.

 The potential of digging down... and building apartments and businesses that are under-ground...
leaving the space above, to be green parks, recreational areas, natural hunting areas, and for food growth.
No more concrete parking lots, eating up space.  No more issues, with having to deal with heavy
snow removal, nor dangerous black-Ice ... as virtually all travel would also be under-ground.


 But the ECO Agenda, is far less about the Environment... and far more about Absolute Global power and
control.


 The Agenda pushers often use Emotion, rather than Logic and non-corrupted data.  Do not allow yourself
to be controlled by Emotional hot-buttons.  Take a deep breath, disconnect emotionally... and use logic,
and rational thought.  Get information from many different non-official sources, to compare against.

 Things are not what they seem.

Example 2

Person A- man first set foot on the moon in 1969

Person B- man has never set foot on the moon

[fallacy]

Lets be real, China is going to kill us all. They pollute more than every country combined, they are killing and fishing the oceans bear. Their country is bigger than the US and they managed to kill every single wild animal to extinction. There are no birds in China? They killed all of them. I hear they are trying to colonize Africa to steal their resources at the moment. They won't stop until nothing is left.

[danny_galaga]

Lets be real, China is going to kill us all. They pollute more than every country combined, they are killing and fishing the oceans bear. Their country is bigger than the US and they managed to kill every single wild animal to extinction. There are no birds in China? They killed all of them. I hear they are trying to colonize Africa to steal their resources at the moment. They won't stop until nothing is left.

Where will your E bike be made?

[fallacy]

Vietnam

[RandyT]

Example 2

Person A- man first set foot on the moon in 1969

Person B- man has never set foot on the moon

Example 3

Person A- Polar bears didn't go extinct due to global warming

Person B- Polar bears are gone.  The grizzly bears all turned white due to climate change

[Zebidee]

Example 4

Person A - Global warming will make the polar ice caps melt and cause oceans to rise, let's make plans

Person B - Glug glug glug

[pbj]

Just a reminder that Xiaou2 was thoroughly convinced that President Obama was personally ordering dissidents rounded up onto trains and taken to death camps strategically located throughout the country.  Millions of Americans were disappearing without a trace.

 

[RandyT]

Just a reminder that Xiaou2 was thoroughly convinced that President Obama was personally ordering dissidents rounded up onto trains and taken to death camps strategically located throughout the country.  Millions of Americans were disappearing without a trace.

One can be wrong about some things and still be right about others.

[Mike A]

When people believe something that incredibly stupid, taking them seriously about anything else is dumb.

This is one of the few internet forums that isn't stuffed with people's dumb ass political beliefs.

Let's keep it that way.

Nobody is going to change their mind.

Just ---smurfing--- stop already.

[RandyT]

When people believe something that incredibly stupid, taking them seriously about anything else is dumb.

Yet some people, albeit far fewer than before, still watch MSNBC and CNN.  I'll even throw in FOX to make you happy.

This is one of the few internet forums that isn't stuffed with people's dumb ass political beliefs.

Let's keep it that way.

Says the guy with a Ukraine flag and a peace symbol as his user pic.  So, do as I say and not as I do?

[Mike A]

I removed it for that reason.

It wasn't a political statement.

But I can see how people like you might construe it that way.

[Mike A]

A peace symbol as a political statement? You are ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- in the head.

[RandyT]

A peace symbol as a political statement? You are ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- in the head.

Why only peace in Ukraine?  Don't you care about other peoples?  (nice try though)

[Mike A]

Not getting dragged into your stupid ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

Ukraine was minding their own business and another country attacked them.

I don't like that. I prefer when people are not killing each other.

If you want to try to tell me what I believe you can go ---fudgesicle--- yourself.

That is all I will say on this matter.

Hopefully the mods wipe out the whole ---smurfing--- thing.

[RandyT]

Ukraine was minding their own business and another country attacked them.

Political belief #1

I don't like that. I prefer when people are not killing each other.

I don't either.  That symbol is even in our logo, but without denoting a people, race or creed. 

[pbj]

That symbol is even in our logo, but without denoting a people, race or creed.

So brave.

 

[RandyT]

Lets be real, China is going to kill us all. They pollute more than every country combined, they are killing and fishing the oceans bear. Their country is bigger than the US and they managed to kill every single wild animal to extinction. There are no birds in China? They killed all of them. I hear they are trying to colonize Africa to steal their resources at the moment. They won't stop until nothing is left.

My take on that situation is China is getting a pass.  Not because anyone particularly likes it, but because they have become the defacto manufacturing hub of the world by their own design.  Slave and low-wage labor, lax-to-non-existent environmental control, iron-fisted government control over production with subsidization to meet their ends even if working at a loss.  Basically, everything we can't or won't do to be able to compete with them.  They are in-it-to-win-it and don't care how long it takes.  At some point, the costs will go higher on their products, and we are already seeing some of that.

But it's not entirely their fault.  Westerners are consumers, first and foremost.  Every time we buy some imported trinket or gadget from a massive Amazon warehouse, it inches them forward.  But it's not all bad for us, at least in the short term.  The low-cost and availability of those items has enriched the lives of millions world-wide.  Even our poorest live better than Kings and Queens of old. 

It's easy to say "buy only American", but quite another to do it.  The decline of western manufacturing brought about mostly by the costs to sustain it, has led to us having few if any other options.  Few will choose to pay more for something for the sake of an ideology, because doing so will have a direct impact on their quality of life.

The folks in power know all of this already.  We've not lost yet, but I'm not sure we have the temerity as a people anymore to take up the fight.  So don't worry about where your e-bike comes from.   

So brave.

I was part of the "war machine" at one time in my life, so it has meaning to me.  It's been there for close to 20 years and it didn't seem to make much of a difference in the world.  But maybe the next time it gets pasted onto an image on the internet it'll be "the time" that it does.

  

[danny_galaga]

Vietnam

Ha, ya got me there 😄

[danny_galaga]

Example 3

Person A- the evidence has been overwhelming for decades that humans are causing climate change.

Person B- the jury is still out on climate change.

Funny how the jury seems most out in countries that have a large fossil fuel industry. Like Australia, Canada USA Russia etc.

A good example of how the 'jury is out' (which is not a thing in science) is the difference between Fox News in Australia and Fox News UK. In Australia, according to Fix News, anything to do with climate change must be a socialist conspiracy. In the UK, not only is Fox News on board with the reality of climate change, they even have a climate change desk!

[RandyT]

A good example of how the 'jury is out' (which is not a thing in science)...

It absolutely is a thing in science.  It's "shorthand" for saying that there is no consensus.  In fact, the "jury is out" on a lot of what we consider scientific endeavors.  Cosmology is a glaring example. Honest cosmologists admit that we know AT THE MOST, about 15% of what makes the Universe "tick." The "Big Bang" is treated as fact by many, even though we cannot, nor will we ever be able to conduct experiments which can accurately test the theory, and occasionally new discoveries and theories pop up to rattle it's foundation.  We can only observe remnants and draw conclusions about a past event we can never re-create or witness first-hand.  Everything we think we know as fact is based on laws of physics and our observation of predictable and reproducible behaviors.   We don't even know if the laws of physics as we understand them today, were even applicable to that event. But that doesn't prevent us from trying to use them to explain it.

But here's a fun fact.  Those who subscribe to "global warming", "climate change", (insert next scary term here) seem to be chalking the cause up to increased greenhouse gasses (co2, methane, etc.) in the atmosphere.  Even though the catastrophic events linked to those in the past have taken between 20,000 and 150,000 years (our best guesses) to manifest, few seem to be concerned that we are basing conclusions on a segment of time 1/866th of that period (averaged) where we have been tracking temperature.  We also have little clue as to the swings in temperatures over the time it took to get there.

But here's the real problem.  Every living creature on this planet is a CO2/methane manufacturing machine.  Me, you, your kids, your dog, even your goldfish.  In the last 200 years, the global human population has gone from 1 Billion people to right around 8 Billion.  You can probably imagine the resulting increased populations of animals as companions or as sources of food in relation to those humans.  Unabated, this number is expected to rise to over 11 billion by the year 2100.   

The planet is in no danger from this or further increases.  It is a self-correcting system and will do what it always does when things get out of balance.  When the time is right, the earth will shed us, as it has done with countless other species, and something different will take our place when conditions allow it to flourish as we have.  And it will do the same to them. 

But make no mistake.  This "climate change" movement is a de-population movement, just by a different name.  That means YOU and your offspring are the problem and have to go.  If you are fine with that, then by all means, rail away.  Just be sure that you understand the ramifications and that a few natural occurrences (volcanic eruptions, oceanic methane releases, increased solar events, etc.) might just undo ten-fold any tiny thing you might accomplish to help stave it off.   In the meantime, you might want to get started on that plants and bugs diet so you can start doing your part.  Maybe eat your pets first to get things kickstarted.

is the difference between Fox News in Australia and Fox News UK. In Australia, according to Fix News, anything to do with climate change must be a socialist conspiracy. In the UK, not only is Fox News on board with the reality of climate change, they even have a climate change desk!

Corporate news media sways in the winds of the hysterical masses.  They follow anything which they believe will feed their bottom lines, and that changes with geographic location and market conditions.  It's the reason you really shouldn't listen to any of them with anything other than an educated and critical ear.

[danny_galaga]

The problem is you have scientists relevant to the field saying we are changing the climate, and then other experts offered up as an equally viable alternative theory. But those other experts are quite often involved in the industries that stand the most to lose from any action to reduce human created greenhouse gases. My partner is a denier like you and I don't know how many times I've heard a climate 'expert' on the wretched radio station she listens to. They do a lot of 'appeal to authority ' . A lot of the 'experts' are geologists. And when you google their names, surprise surprise they work for, or consult for coal mining companies. You said earlier 'follow the money'. Does that not count for 'researchers' who work for the fossil fuel industry?

I once heard one of these geologists say that volcanoes put out way more CO2 than humans. This is nonsense. The average listener of that station would be thinking "well he's a geologist, he should know'. You know who knows? A VULCANologist. When it comes to knowledge of volcanoes, the opinions of  those two experts does not have equal weight. Interestingly, those radio shows Never have a climate scientist as a guest. That would break down the denial web in one hour.

Many fossil fuel companies  even use the same consultants.

My partner is smarter than me, and I bet you are too, but that didn't make you immune from the crooked reasoning being peddled by those lobbyists. It's the same technique the tobacco lobby used. In fact one of the big ones, the Heartland Institute, was formed to lobby for tobacco AND oil. The constant barrage of side arguments that are not science sows doubt in the public mind. Like tobacco, they frame it as a question of freedom etc. But science isn't a question of freedom. That's another matter. So is what you do with the knowledge that we are making the world warmer.

[Howard_Casto]

Climate change is real, full stop, no need for further explanation.   People that don't "believe" in it don't "believe" in things, like logic, the scientific method, common sense and frikkin observing the planet getting hotter with their own senses and therefore aren't worth arguing with.  It's like trying to explain purple to a blind man.... the concept is so foreign to them that they don't have any frame of reference.   

[Zebidee]

Radny, I am sick of hearing your anti-climate change conspiracy rubbish.

Take it somewhere else. This thread is about e-bikes.

If you can't leave it alone, at least stay on topic.

[pbj]

Lead, schmead, in 100 years we'll all be dead.

[RandyT]

I once heard one of these geologists say that volcanoes put out way more CO2 than humans. This is nonsense. The average listener of that station would be thinking "well he's a geologist, he should know'. You know who knows? A VULCANologist.

Well, first of all, the amount of CO2 expelled by a volcano should be based on empirical data, so it wouldn't matter if it was regurgitated by a geologist or your babysitter.  The numbers should still be the same.  You also assume that there are no monetary/political interests involved by those rooted in academia, which couldn't be farther from the truth.  They have much more to lose from not aligning themselves with certain governmental interests.  In fact, just days ago legislation was adopted which benefited them greatly under the guise of student loan forgiveness.  It's a lot easier to decide to sign up for classes if you think there's a good chance you won't ever be forced to pay back the loan you needed to do so.  If this was done for the auto industry, they'd be selling like hotcakes!  Then of course there are research grants being fought for by all of these institutions. You don't think that they are handed out to an institution likely to come to an opposing conclusion, do you?

Money is involved on both sides, and no matter what your opinion is on the subject, you are personally paying the costs of lobbyists for BOTH sides of the argument.  The difference is that you probably got something you wanted from the free-market capitalist.

Radny, I am sick of hearing your anti-climate change conspiracy rubbish.

You could always place your head back in the sand or not read my posts

If you can't leave it alone, at least stay on topic.

I'm just responding to others, as I am now to both of you.  Since neither of you apparently read what I wrote, I'm not denying that temperatures are increasing, at least based on the measurements taken over the time in question.

I even gave you the main reason.  Climate change is man-made at the lowest of levels.  You two obviously seem ok with living in a devolving world, along with your offspring and their offspring (if they are allowed any by then.)  But there are roughly 100,000,000 in this country alone who aren't, and probably another 1,400,000,000 (China), not to mention the massive populations of underdeveloped countries who just don't care, so enjoy your bugburgers and reduced quality of life in futility.  The people pushing this upon you won't be.

And as a side note, this is in the cricket flour they are starting to sneak into your food so you can get protein from something other than meat:

Chitosan acts by forming gels in the intestinal tract which entrap lipids and other nutrients, including fat soluble vitamins and minerals, thus interfering with their absorption. Dietary chitosan may influence calcium metabolism by accelerating its urinary excretion. The reported undesirable effects are a marked decrease in plasma vitamin E level, reduction in bone mineral content and growth retardation.

And so this post will be slightly on topic, e-bikes will keep you from breathing so hard, thereby reducing your personal CO2 emissions.  But it's going to take a long while before any of those savings are realized, considering that they are not made in a country with strict environmental regulations.  Then again, probably nothing you own is, so do you really care?

[Dawgz Rule]

Thank you Randy.  I hadn't had time to jump in here, but you are absolutely right about academia.  This is coming from somebody whose organizations sole business is managing research grants for a university system.  There are plenty of grant incentives around to promote man-made climate change.   Climate change today is no different then the hysteria about the next ice age was coming back in the 70's.  The reality is that the planet naturally goes through periods of heating and cooling.  It's pretty well documented.

That isn't to say that we shouldn't be good stewards of the gift that we all live upon.  However, we also need to fully understand the upstream and downstream impacts of these decisions.  For example, it doesn't do us much good to move to solar and wind if it requires more coal plants (in China) to deliver the very same.   It doesn't do much good to drive an EV given the significant environmental impact to produce and dispose of the batteries, let alone the need for more coal to power grid to support them.  Last, it doesn't make good sense to reduce oil and gas production in the US, only to purchase it overseas where there are fewer environmental controls in the production process.   

Also, companies take advantage of going green purely for profit.  From a auto manufacturing perspective, EV's equals a steady flow of income.   The average life of an EV battery is well below the average life of a gas engine.  Additionally, the cost of a replacement battery system is so prohibitively expensive that most people will opt to purchase a new vehicle.   At that point you are not only dealing with battery waste, but a whole automobile of waste.

A balanced approach is always the best approach. 

[danny_galaga]

I once heard one of these geologists say that volcanoes put out way more CO2 than humans. This is nonsense. The average listener of that station would be thinking "well he's a geologist, he should know'. You know who knows? A VULCANologist.

Well, first of all, the amount of CO2 expelled by a volcano should be based on empirical data, so it wouldn't matter if it was regurgitated by a geologist or your babysitter.  The numbers should still be the same. 

Yes if the gelogist quoted the same figures that a VULCANologist would quote, then yes it wouldn't matter if he said it, or Jordan Peterson or my barber. But your mentality is blocking you from comprehending what I said. The geologist was touted as an expert, and then he said something about volcanoes which is completely wrong. But the job is done, most people listening would be left with a vague impression of yet another reason all the climate scientists are wrong. Deny, disrupt, divide.

I once worked with a guy, and i kid you not, he didn't believe men had been to the moon. He would quote all these 'alternative facts' to prove his claim. Like I said before just HAVING an alternative doesn't give it the same weight. An alternative to evolution and the age of the world is that God created everything in six days about 6000 years ago. Most people would agree that 'fact' really doesn't have the same weight as that which science now contends.

Oh, that guy? He also believed his stock standard Suzuki Swift could do a 1/4 mile in under 10 seconds. He was also, by any other measures smarter than me. But you couldn't tell him he was wrong.

Howard is right, you can't change people's minds in these cases, but you just hope they aren't in positions of power.

Anyway, enough from me. Apologies to the OP

[danny_galaga]

I'm a postman, and funnily enough I just delivered a parcel to this shop 😃

[Zebidee]

Nice looking scooters!

Phone number 07 means you must be in Queensland. Hope you are enjoying a balmy winter

[Zebidee]

I described this thread's discussion to my teenage/young adult daughters. They asked me to relay a message to all of us. Here is is:

"OK BOOMER"

[pbj]

This is coming from somebody whose organizations sole business is managing research grants for a university system.

So you’re a programmer for Cayuse or a Cayuse knock off?  And this gives you expertise on peer reviewed research funding?  Cmon, bro. 

[Zebidee]

This is coming from somebody whose organizations sole business is managing research grants for a university system.

So you’re a programmer for Cayuse or a Cayuse knock off?  And this gives you expertise on peer reviewed research funding?  Cmon, bro.

As Howard and Danny have already pointed out, it is pointless to reason with such people. The climate change denialists have already made up their minds and will refuse to adapt to new inputs, even when provided with mountains of evidence.

They have invested too much of themselves, in their blinkered views, to change now. All they can do is double-down, dig a deeper hole. Easier than admitting they were wrong.

You see it in the incoherent rambling and presentation of half-thought opinions dressed as facts.

This is the downside of the information age. We have so much information and knowledge literally at our hands, but we also have much more access to misinformation (and people have a monetary incentive to create and spread this misinformation).

This has led to an explosion of misinformation and conspiracy theories, and also extremism. Look hard enough and you can always find people to support your warped views.

As for research funding and grants allocation, that is something I do have a lot of direct experience in, and at high levels as a senior government innovation, research and industry analyst and policy developer/advisor. Let me assure you of one thing:

There is no government (or other agency) conspiracy pushing the idea of man-made climate change.

Governments are, in fact, the laggards here. Now they are running to catch up. Scientists, action groups, schoolkids and even the private sector have been leading the charge with awareness and response to man-made climate change.

As for the "OK BOOMER" comment - I'm making the point that WE are the ones who created the mess that this planet is now in, but we'll be dead before too long, and our kids will be the ones left to pay for/suffer the damage.

There might not be much we can do about it, but we can start by accepting responsibility.

[RandyT]

Yes if the gelogist quoted the same figures that a VULCANologist would quote, then yes it wouldn't matter if he said it, or Jordan Peterson or my barber. But your mentality is blocking you from comprehending what I said. The geologist was touted as an expert, and then he said something about volcanoes which is completely wrong. But the job is done, most people listening would be left with a vague impression of yet another reason all the climate scientists are wrong. Deny, disrupt, divide.

You do realize that scientists on your own side of the argument attribute the past (well before man) catastrophic climate events attributable to CO2 in the atmosphere to volcanic eruptions and oceanic releases of methane, do you not?  I'm not saying that they will be the primary cause should another one of those occur, but with so many and ever-growing numbers of "breathers and farters" and the animals which support them, the effects of these events will certainly get us closer to the tipping point more quickly than they did in the past. 

And honestly, geologists are just as much in the mix as climatologists with regard to this situation.  How exactly do you think the climatologists know the CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere during the Mesozoic era?  BTW, we used to call "climatologists" weathermen when they were on the news.  I always thought the shift to that was similar to how janitors became "sanitation engineers".

I described this thread's discussion to my teenage/young adult daughters. They asked me to relay a message to all of us. Here is is:

"OK BOOMER"

When I program my computer to tell me that, it does the same thing.  Funny how that works    But your kids benefitted the same way we and all all of ours did.  Namely every single thing petroleum provided them.  Food, transportation, heat, plastic products, you name it.  It's smeared with the stuff (metaphorically speaking, of course.)  I notice that you like to label people "climate change denier".  You seem to be a "petroleum benefits denier".  Without it, people freeze and go hungry.  Until there is a suitable replacement for the energy it provides, the future you are wishing upon our children is one none of us would want to experience.  To support this world we created (our kids are part of that) we need massive amounts of affordable energy, and particularly as it relates to transportation, efficient and non-destructive ways to store large amounts of it.  When that's a reality, no convincing of others will be necessary and it will be a thing of the past.  But doing things in the wrong order, as we are now, is a recipe for chaos.  Hopefully this isn't being done intentionally to solve that pesky population problem I mentioned earlier, but it will certainly take care of a good part of it.

[fallacy]

Been watching some of this guys' videos on bikes. He is one of those guys you just want to listen to his rambling closely because it is chalk full of useful information.

[Zebidee]

@fallacy, thanks for the video link. Am watching/listening while typing

Cargo bikes look like a really great option.

I like that the guy talks a bit about the issues, like need for regulation and battery safety and such.

@Randy, I actually understand much of your anger regarding these issues.

We are all made to feel like it is our fault. If we didn't burn all those fossil fuels etc etc then we wouldn't be in this situation. Comments like "OK BOOMER" are like rubbing salt into the wounds and deny what we have built for the next generations. I only relayed it to highlight their perspective (I also had a separate conversation with my kids about why they should not really say it to people, IRL).

We are made to feel responsible for everything as individuals, yet we have very little power to make change as individuals.

What makes me angry is that there are things we could be doing, could have been doing, to radically adjust our economies away from fossil fuels to renewables, but there just isn't the political will to do it, or to do it fast enough.

For the future, consider investing in quality companies leveraged to renewables, batteries tech, and/or associated miners (lithium, nickel, copper, tantalum, for example, although these are often the same companies benefiting from fossil fuels so we can't win!).

I wouldn't bother investing any money behind e-bikes companies yet, but is an interesting space to watch.

[Dawgz Rule]

This is coming from somebody whose organizations sole business is managing research grants for a university system.

So you’re a programmer for Cayuse or a Cayuse knock off?  And this gives you expertise on peer reviewed research funding?  Cmon, bro.

No, I work for a Research Foundation for the largest university system in the country.  In particular, I am responsible for all of the business systems that manage $1.4 billion in grants.  I am very familiar with both the pre-award and post award grants management processes and funding.  I deal directly with grants and grants administration all day long.   And yes, there are plenty of research grants associated with climate change.

Try again.

[Dawgz Rule]

As Howard and Danny have already pointed out, it is pointless to reason with such people. The climate change denialists have already made up their minds and will refuse to adapt to new inputs, even when provided with mountains of evidence.

What evidence?   Do you realize that despite the "overwhelming evidence" that there hasn't been a single instance of the climate alarmists being right?   If you believe otherwise, please share.   Perhaps the reason why is that most of these "predictions" are based on faulty IPCC CO2 climate models. 

It is very easy to slap a label on others as "climate deniers" because it puts it in a nice container where you can't discuss facts.   I don't deny climate change is happening.   I deny that the principal driver in climate change is man.  I also deny that there is anything of substance that is going to change that trajectory as compared to the influence of the sun on our climate.   

Agreed, the average planet temperature has risen 0.8 degrees celsius since 1850.  Along with that, CO2 emissions have increased.   However, to say one is the cause of the other is a hypothesis that has yet to be rooted in scientific fact.   This is especially so if you consider that a mere change in the sun's energy of 0.01% would have a much greater impact on CO2 levels on our planet. 

That aside, if you really want to do something about our planet, the focus needs to be on China and India.   Emissions in the US have been steadily declining since 2010 or 2011.   Again, it does us no good to purchase wind turbines and solar panels from China, which are being produced via coal.

[Zebidee]

What evidence?   Do you realize that despite the "overwhelming evidence" that there hasn't been a single instance of the climate alarmists being right?   If you believe otherwise, please share.   Perhaps the reason why is that most of these "predictions" are based on faulty IPCC CO2 climate models. 

First, you should convincingly prove your theory about the Sun causing all the issues. If the evidence is so obvious to convince you, surely it can't be that hard.

When I was still in denial, or at least feeling agnostic, I wanted to believe that it was about sun cycles, or maybe some other cycle. But the evidence just didn't stack up.

On the other hand, the case for it being a man-made crisis is overwhelming. You just need to open your eyes to see it.

Some people have talked about "follow-the-money". Well, the big money has been in the fossil industry. These are the people behind the real conspiracy theory, that man-made climate change is a lie, that something else like sun cycles is the culprit.

Just like tobacco industry, they will do anything to remain in business.

Instead of boring you with an essay that you will simply deny and refute with no basis in fact, I'll give you a video to help stimulate your thought processes about how scientists can analyse the same data and come to conclusions. It may also stimulate something else in you - she is pretty hot, at least IMO. So worth watching for that as well.

[Zebidee]

Indulging you here, as I am not in the business of turning skeptics around (mostly fruitless due to blinkered views, as noted above)

I found this infographic article very convincing about a) the very real man-made contributions to carbon in our atmosphere, and b) how little time we have left.

Summary is: we have squandered our carbon "budget", time has run out.

It is somewhat Australia focused, but what do you expect.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-15/acting-now-can-buy-us-time-on-climate-change/100020944

[Dawgz Rule]

I don't doubt that there are man-made contributions to carbon dioxide emissions.   However, you fail to recognize that it is widely accepted that the earth also goes through natural climate cycles that are well documented.  By cycles, that means periods of heating and cooling.  These cycles are both long and short-term in nature, and include:

- Milankovitch Cycles (Millenial)
- Century Scale Climate Cycles
- Interannual and Decadal Climate Cycles

Other contributors include:

 - Solar Cycles (the sun's magnetic field flips every 11 years causing this)
 - Volcanic Sulfur
 - Orbital Wobble
 - Short-term climate fluctuations such as circulation changes in the Pacific and the Atlantic Ocean

In my humble opinion, I can't help but believe that these have significantly more impact than man-made influences.  Again though, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be good stewards of our planet.

At the end of the day, climate activists fail to provide a solution beyond "renewables" and fail to recognize the impact the creation of those renewables is having on the very environment they are fighting to protect.

[Zebidee]

Dawgz, I am aware of all those factors. None of that adds up.

The cycles you mention don't add up to what we are seeing now.

Sun activity cycles (as you noted, over 11 years) do not match the rest of the data.

Orbital wobble? You mean like the 26000 years one? Where is the connection to the long term climate change data.

Short-term cycles in the oceans? Sure, they bring short-term climate condition disasters like droughts and floods. I am Australian - we get drought, bushfire, floods, drought, drought, bushfire, drought, bushfire, floods floods, then drought drought and more bushfire.

They are getting worse. A lot worse. Australian skeptics are starting to believe in climate change because they see it in their backyards.

Cycles come and go. What you need to measure is average ocean temperatures, which are rising. High ocean temperatures drive more cyclical activity.

Volcanic sulphur? There has been no special "recent" volcanic activity, beyond the norm over millions of years, to account for any of the climate change data.

Which brings me to high and rising CO2 levels, which some seem to think is due to volcanos. It isn't. There is no connection at all between the normal levels of volcanic activity seen over past centuries, and the CO2 levels.

Nothing else on your list accounts for the CO2 levels. Sun cycles and orbital wobbles or whatever won't have the same impact on measurable CO2 levels in our atmosphere, which have been steadily rising since long before the industrial revolution - when they started taking off.

Now, if you take 5 minutes to follow the article I linked earlier, you can see how we are pumping CO2 into the atmosphere like never before. It didn't come from nowhere, sun spots, ocean cycles or even volcanos. It is there because we put it there, and the climate models are correctly predicting the temperature rises that we are experiencing already.

[Mike A]

You guys are just going to run around in circles.

That is why we don't do politics and religion here.

You could do 2000 posts here and you will not have made any progress at all.

[RandyT]

Been watching some of this guys' videos on bikes. He is one of those guys you just want to listen to his rambling closely because it is chalk full of useful information.

It might just be confirmation bias talking, but the guy seems on point.  I flirted with the idea of getting a cargo bike, because who doesn't like the option of carrying extra stuff.  The issue with them is that you are always carrying extra stuff, even when it's empty.  Reduced curb appeal and dexterity also factored into my decision against one.  They have their place, but for most it would probably be good as a second vehicle.  One for the everyday commute, and one for hauling stuff.  I've found that this covers most of my cargo needs   If that's not enough, a good lightweight bike trailer is an option.

A major benefit of bikes with cargo capacity is the ability to hack in an absolutely massive battery, and still have room for your stuff.  This greatly enhances their appeal to the practical minded. 

While on the subject of batteries, I'll say that this is a major requirement for extreme care.  If you have it as an option, always charge them outside and if possible, in a fire-proof vessel.  Outside of accidental impact, charging is the most dangerous time to be around them.  If I lived in an urban setting, I would run an extension cord out the window and charge it on the fire escape.  Could still be a problem for anyone below it if it went thermal, but the chance for containment will be better than if it's on your nightstand.  Oh, and a good fire extinguisher which can douse a lithium fire is another good accessory item.

I'll say something else about cargo e-bikes which many will not like.  They aren't really that practical.  It's hard to match the practicality of a small, gas-powered scooter.  I know it uses evil petroleum, but it literally sips the stuff.  If you want to see to what effect they can haul things, just do an image search on Google for "overloaded scooter".  If nothing more it's good for a chuckle.   

Now, if you take 5 minutes to follow the article I linked earlier, you can see how we are pumping CO2 into the atmosphere like never before. It didn't come from nowhere, sun spots, ocean cycles or even volcanos. It is there because we put it there, and the climate models are correctly predicting the temperature rises that we are experiencing already.

CO2=Life.  Extinguish life=Problem solved.  So, which people will you offer up to be the first on the sacrificial altar?  You might think that is an extreme question, but that is precisely what it currently boils down to.  We are so dependent on the energy provided by petroleum, the lack of it means death to many.  Germany is terrified right now, because "Winter is coming".  They aren't the only ones.

[dmckean]

Indulging you here

Don't bother, you can't argue with mental illness. We're dealing with delusion in the clinical sense here.

[RandyT]

Don't bother, you can't argue with mental illness.

We know, but we won't give up on you.

[pbj]

This is coming from somebody whose organizations sole business is managing research grants for a university system.

So you’re a programmer for Cayuse or a Cayuse knock off?  And this gives you expertise on peer reviewed research funding?  Cmon, bro.

No, I work for a Research Foundation for the largest university system in the country.  In particular, I am responsible for all of the business systems that manage $1.4 billion in grants.  I am very familiar with both the pre-award and post award grants management processes and funding.  I deal directly with grants and grants administration all day long.   And yes, there are plenty of research grants associated with climate change.

Try again.

You hiring?   

[Xiaou2]

Do you know why the Science, has not included Solar activity into their Climate models?
Because it would reveal things, that people are not prepared to hear, nor accept.

 All of your Radical Eco savings methods, will never stop the massive changes that are coming
in the near future.   And NONE of if,  will be due to Mankinds pollution.

 The Sun goes through different phases.  It also changes its magnetic poles... which is why the Earths
poles have been drastically moving, and are soon to flip.

 There was a book labeled something like  Adam and Eve,  which spoke about the coming cataclysmic
event... and It was discovered that the  "See eye Ay"   removed and censored several pages of that
book.


 My theory, based on what I recall of the video that I watched on the subject... is that its a compound
problem.  The Earth experiences a certain wobble change, which makes it further away from the sun.
I believe it might have stated a slightly longer Orbit, too,  due to some other factor.

 Then you have the solar strength periods.  When the solar goes through its "Grand solar minimum",
you have a weakened protective magnetic field surrounding the earth.  This thus, may allow more
Meteors, to crash into the ground, rather than burning up.

 I believe the earths magnetic core, which is likely the root means of producing its strong gravity...
will start to slow in rotational speed.  This will reduce the overall gravitational strength.. as well as
simple magnetic strength...  and its quite possible, that this will cause a LOT of catastrophic effects.

 For one... the plates that the Continents are seated on... may start to slide around.  For another...
pressure and forces that used to keep Lava deep within the earth... will relax.. allowing for massive
volcanic activity, unlike anything ever seen before.   Masses of land, may end up rising miles into
the sky... and or falling thousands of feet deep into the ocean floors.

 There is another Huge Issue...

 I believe, its been said that the earth isnt actually a perfect "Ball".   Its more like an ovular shape...
possibly due to the rotation speed and gravitational pull along the equator... where the water is actually
"higher".     Thus... if the Earths gravity weakens enough... all of that water will be dropped flat...
and you will get the famous Biblical "Noah Flood".


 I cant recall the order of these events.  I believe we are supposedly headed for a mini ice age, soon.
The rest, is shortly to follow.


 A lot of the evidence has been ignored, and swept under the rug.  There are sea fossils found high up
in mountainous areas.  There are entire Ancient Cities, deep at the bottom of the ocean floors.
Areas of the Dessert, that long ago.. used to be full of plants, water., and a river.. are now seeing
water, snow, and flowers blooming in them.. very recently.


 I believe Ive heard, that there are times when the earth had Ice-Free poles.  That these ice
build ups, are remnants of a previous Ice Age, that we are still coming out of.

 I can also tell you, that there are a lot of other "Warning Signs",  of what is to come.

 - The US created a Doomsday Seed bank, not too long ago.
 - The US started creating these Emergency Fema Camps, all over the place.  Many are capable of keeping
over 30,000 people within them.   According to many, these sites were not active, until more recently.
 - The media has been Promoting "Survival" shows, for the past few decades.
 - The stores, have been stocking and selling high quantities of survival gear
 - The Boy Scouts were Camping in the winter (I have friends that do this.  Not sure if / when that practice started).
 - Robin Willams, before passing... Said that a horrible event was about to take place.  That people would freeze to deth...
and that nobody was going to be doing anything about it, to warn the masses.
 - Certain Telescope observatories, were being raided by the FB-Eye, for some strange reason, recently.
 - Many weather, and space weather data collectors, have been temporarily turned off at times, and the data Wiped.
 - Many have notices that the suns trajectory in the sky, has moved, from where they remember it to be.
 - Some have noted that the suns light used to be more "Yellow", where as now its more "White", in color.
 - A climate expert, has been Railing the fake-science articles recently..  and revealing dirty false attacks, trying to
dispute his data on Solar Activity effects on the climate... and the data to prove it.  Surprisingly, they have not
"Disappeared" him Yet.
 - IMO, the clot-shots, are an intended population control mechanism.  Some got the quick ending, some got the
longer term ending.  And some might have gotten the placebo.
 - Very strange things have been spotted, at the White House... including a lot of odd unmarked busses pulling in,
and erections of large fencing with barbed wire topping.
 - Large underground tunnels were said to be dug, connecting various walmarts together.  One walmart was
supposedly shut down for plumbing issues... and never reopened.  It then had barbed fencing on it, and I believe
it was being guarded by men with rifles.
 - Food processing plants have been catching on fire recently.  Not sure of the significance of this, at the moment.
 - The IRS, was recently upped in staff, to hire like 80k more workers, that are equipped with firearms...
and stated that their line of work will be "Dangerous".

 Further Speculations:

 - The recent radical push for removal of Gas and Oil,  is likely to prevent further destruction when the
Cataclysmic events start unfurling.  You dont want such pipes bursting open.
 - Lockdowns, the shut down of the Economy, the destruction of small businesses... likely related to the coming
communistic / one-world-govt.
 - Open Borders, to get people of various countries, into safer zones, for when the SHTF.
 - Large number of Cattle were seen deceased, all at once.  The media blamed the heat... but it was not that hot,
where the cattle were grazing.  Certainly not hot enough to end thousands of cows lives.  My guess, is that these
went into the stockpiles of the privileged Elite.
 - Intentional Racism and Division is being propagated in the mass media, intentionally... to try to start
civil wars, and help reduce the overall population.  Possibly to speed up rollout of martial law, and or the
acceptance of it.
 - Gun control psyops, have been going on often... and often being called out for their mistakes.  Its clear,
that they are planning to remove all rights to firearms, for civilian protection.  This will help speed the
coming commie takeover.
 - Criminals are intentionally being released back into the general population... rather than staying locked up.
 - Commiefornia, has made a law that prevents any arrest for shoplifting under $1000.. so now, shops
are being completely looted, and forced out of business, by individuals, and or gangs of thugs.

 - Tesla's  Vacuum Tube Train, IMO, is actually an Elitists quick-escape mechanism.  Its not robust enough, for mass people
transport.  Its not even realistic, in its stated design functionality.
 - Tesla's  CyberTruck... looks like an Apocalyptic transport mechanism.  Bullet proof glass, and sloped angles,
to allow it to roll through debris and or crowds of people.
 - Its possible that China's empty cities, were not in fact merely made out of corruption.. but instead, to help
house people when the SHTF.  These might have been made to take foreigners in.
 - SpaceX, and its plans to go to Mars, is likely an attempt to try to establish a temporary safety zone for the
Elite, until the conditions stabilize, on Earth.   They are likely working with Nasa, to first install a well stocked
jump-base, on the moon... making it feasible to get all of the needed supplies, ready for shipment.  As if they
tried to go directly there from Earth... the weight of the cargo would probably eat too much of the fuel reserves.


 Have fun mocking my Speculations and Theories.  I dont care at this point.  Its more for fun, than anything else.
All I have to say, is to enjoy the Present times and days, as much as you can.  You never know, if and when
something catastrophic, might cause all of your plans, to change radically.

 Yeah, the Deth train was disinfo BS.  It did its job, of throwing off a lot of people, and their perceived
credibility.  It didnt take away from the knowledge of the Fema camps, for what purpose, they were
built, and recently staffed.   Nor have my perspectives on Govt. spying, been dampened.  Things have
only gotten more and more Orwellian, since then.  Especially in China... where you can no longer
purchase anything without facial recognition and or your phone.

 Censorship has reached an insane level, with platforms shadow banning peoples words, videos, and
or outright banning anything that goes against the corrupted narratives from the Hypocritical
and Illogical Radicals.

 IMO, Judgement day is coming.  And you will have to prove your worth as a person, and usefulness...
to get a ticket to the underground bunkers.  They know everything that you do, say, etc... as they
have been collecting "social credit" data, for a very long time.

[yotsuya]

MAGA Steve is the worst Steve.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike A]

Holy ---smurfing--- ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

[Xiaou2]

BTW - there has been talks of Ukraine having US funded Bio-Labs all over it.
(Bitchute, is one of the few sites that is not heavily censored... yet)

  Originally, this factoid was disputed.  Then, evidence came in, to prove their existence... and they had
to backtrack, and admit to them.

 Supposedly, Putin was trying to find these BioLabs, due to then being used to develop Bio-Weapons.

 IMO, this translates to the CooF.  An Engineered Virus, designed to take out specific genetic traits.
This was attempted a few times in the past,  such as with "Swine Flu".   It was largely aimed at
the Chinese, at the time.

 According to various sources... the  World Health Organization  was intentionally feeding them bad
information, and so the Chinese stopped listening to them, and created their own solution, to stop
that version of the virus.

 These days, Bio-Targetting is not mere Fantasy.  Its a very real possibility.  Though, due to biology being
so complex... a lot of these attempts, end up failing.

 Of course, they put these things into modern movies, such as the new James Bond film,  to try to
make anyone that presents these things, look like an unhinged lunatic.


 Ive seen some clips of these Ukraine events.  There are many Ukrainian soldiers, that have swastika tattoos on them.
 And many interviewers, being told that the worst of their corruption, is coming from the Ukraine leadership.


 Of course, without actual proof, how can one make an accurate judgement?
All you can go by, is what the corrupted media channels "Feed" or "Program" you with.
And they weaponize this Programming, by connecting it to ones EMOTIONS.

 Rather than thinking with logical and factual data... you simply make snap judgements, based on
your Emotional State.  A state, that they whipped up, using deception, and psychologically manipulative
methods.

[Xiaou2]

MAGA Steve is the worst Steve.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 I dont subscribe to any Political Party.   But, I expect and savor that small minded Diversionist type of thinking... and the
ultimate Hypocrisy of it all.

[dmckean]

I wish the mods would clean up all this horseshit so that we could go back to talking about Ebikes since they seem really cool.

[yotsuya]

Mod? We have mods? Is the Scottbot down for repairs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Xiaou2]

Back on Topic

[Dawgz Rule]

You hiring?   
[/quote]

Yes, I am seeking a Senior Linux Engineer, preferably one who also has some network and fortigate experience.   Can be 100% remote.   Our systems are predominantly in Oracle Cloud with some now in AWS. 

[Dawgz Rule]

I wish the mods would clean up all this horseshit so that we could go back to talking about Ebikes since they seem really cool.

Says the person who jumped right in about mental illness.... funny.

E-bikes....seem kind of cool.  Next on my list after saving up for my real doll.

[fallacy]

Says the person who jumped right in about mental illness.... funny.

E-bikes....seem kind of cool.  Next on my list after saving up for my real doll.

I mean… once they start having realistic facial movement and some semblance of realistic conversation then we can discuss Real Doll tec, but it is still too soon.

[Dawgz Rule]

Conversation?   Nope, don't need that.

[danny_galaga]

Yes if the gelogist quoted the same figures that a VULCANologist would quote, then yes it wouldn't matter if he said it, or Jordan Peterson or my barber. But your mentality is blocking you from comprehending what I said. The geologist was touted as an expert, and then he said something about volcanoes which is completely wrong. But the job is done, most people listening would be left with a vague impression of yet another reason all the climate scientists are wrong. Deny, disrupt, divide.

You do realize that scientists on your own side of the argument attribute the past (well before man) catastrophic climate events attributable to CO2 in the atmosphere to volcanic eruptions and oceanic releases of methane, do you not? 

But again you are confusing things- a whole butt load of co 2 was created by volcanic activity a long time ago when the earth was much younger. The amount of volcanic activity a billion years ago was magnitudes more than now. The environment and climate then was not such that it could support complicated life, let alone humans with their cars and houses and bowling alleys and comic books. When life evolved such that it consumed CO2 for whatever reason a lot died in short periods of time, trapping the CO2. We are releasing in several hundred years what took several hundred MILLION years to lock away. You know all this, and so do the people that tell you to deny it.


Plants are still evolved for a high CO2 atmosphere, so yes when the deniers glibly say BUT PLANTS NEED CO2!!1! they aren't wrong. Some life will adapt to having higher temperatures, more wild storms and much higher sea levels but humans with their skateboards and electric guitars and nicely mowed lawns and beach front condos are going to struggle. That's why people are concerned. Human civilization is very precarious now, too many disruptions will really effect us. Just look at what happened when most of the hard drive factories in Thailand got flooded (don't get hung up on whethe r that particular event was from climate change. We are going to have more flooding) a little while ago. I think it effected something like 20% of the world's supply, just from one flooding event

[Zebidee]

Drought in Taiwan recently brought world IT supply chains to a standstill (that and COVID).

They make a lot of microchips, and it turns out that you need a lot of water (ultra clean water) to produce the microchips that we need in our cars n e-bikes and everything else these days.

Now imagine the very possible scenario of China invading Taiwan.

To keep it on topic, now imagine China invading Taiwan on e-bikes (e-boats?)

[Dawgz Rule]

But you know, those advances in touch sensors and built-in heat are pretty nice moves in the right direction.  Which do you think would be more environmentally friendly....TPE or Silicone? 

[Dawgz Rule]

To keep it on topic, now imagine China invading Taiwan on e-bikes (e-boats?)

Oh, that's coming soon enough. 

[Zebidee]

Just send Nancy to sort them out