Why use emulators when theres RetroArch?

[abispac]

So iwas lurking around at the compatible emulator topic, and saw someone saying that he tried retroarch and it was nice and it didnt looked back, so i did gave it a try to, so i got a say.... Why use emulators ,when you can just use RetroArch? I mean, i just downloaded the thing, installed it, download a couple of cores, set my keys, set my video to d3d and use switchres, even has an option to use regular or super resolutions, and voala, everything works out of the box, no messing with complicated video settings. More easy than that, is just not posible. So In your opinion, why use emulators instead of retroarch... Ill wait for the comments.

[pbj]

I hate the menu system in Retroarch.  Very poor organization and it’s difficult to actually quit a game.

[abispac]

I hate the menu system in Retroarch.  Very poor organization and it’s difficult to actually quit a game.

Well , i simply installed retroarch, installed cores, set the video settings and that was all in the retroarch side. Then i set up rocketlauncher to use that for every system, and i dont even have to mess with retroarch anymore. and all games launch at native 15khz resolutions just fine. I didint even needed to tell retroarch where the roms folder was or anything like that. and to exit the games i just have to double esc, and thats all. I love it.

[MK3FANATIC]

yes I use retroarch for several systems, BUT my order of priority is;

groovymame > mame > standalone emulator > retroarch

I get the impression that accuracy, fluidity and input lag are always better in the other options than in retroarch.

[Substring]

Well, that's quite an arguable topic with much to say, whatever one may think about the general libretro thing ...

1. RA, as a frontend, can be pretty despicable
2. Some purists would say RA solves emulation problems on the cores, but never submit their changes upstream. When you believe in the open source etiquette, that is an important argument
3. a number of cores work rather well, and RA has a number of interesting features
4. (in my absolutely subjective opinion since I, among a few others, contributed to that) Making RA cross the switchres step was a decisive move. Just to make it simple : drop your switchres.ini in the retroarch.exe folder, set 2 or 3 options in the retroarch.cfg, and voilà (not voala ). The move to SR was, to me, a giant leap to the ease of configuration, really. People probably don't all understand what SR has brought to CRT modeswitching and emulators, but it's is a major improvement, really. And the easyness you've described to setup RA for CRT is one onf the proofs of how the work that was done made RA CRT configuration much simplier, and the general ecosystem of SR-compatible emulators
5. any emulator has pros and cons ... mame, emu4crt, retroarch ... Just have fun the way you like

[abispac]

Well, that's quite an arguable topic with much to say, whatever one may think about the general libretro thing ...

1. RA, as a frontend, can be pretty despicable
2. Some purists would say RA solves emulation problems on the cores, but never submit their changes upstream. When you believe in the open source etiquette, that is an important argument
3. a number of cores work rather well, and RA has a number of interesting features
4. (in my absolutely subjective opinion since I, among a few others, contributed to that) Making RA cross the switchres step was a decisive move. Just to make it simple : drop your switchres.ini in the retroarch.exe folder, set 2 or 3 options in the retroarch.cfg, and voilà (not voala ). The move to SR was, to me, a giant leap to the ease of configuration, really. People probably don't all understand what SR has brought to CRT modeswitching and emulators, but it's is a major improvement, really. And the easyness you've described to setup RA for CRT is one onf the proofs of how the work that was done made RA CRT configuration much simplier, and the general ecosystem of SR-compatible emulators
5. any emulator has pros and cons ... mame, emu4crt, retroarch ... Just have fun the way you like

I dont use Retroarch as the front  end, i use hyperspin with rocketlauncher, and just use retroarch to play the games, so i really never see retroarch besides the loading black band that has the game information.  So yes, i know everything has its pros and cons, but believe me, ive been building arcades  for friends and relatives for over 20 years now, and todays, could not be any easyer with emudrivers, amd cards, groovymame for arcade stuff, and no retroarch for all the consoles. I mean, even with though that mame has consoles support, one thing i hate about mame, is that it wont play games that6 dont have the correct name, or the name that mame has for such game, contrary to retroarch, that with all the cores, it can play any game based on the game name, not caring if is correct or not. (Not sure if i explain myself on this one) Anyway, i think MAME should have followed the same way as retroarch. BUt i guess both projects are great. Anyway, thanks to anyone involved  on making this happen. All the talented coders, veterans and younglins. THANKS.  Pardon my bad grammar. English is now my third lenguage.

[psakhis]

@Abispac, RA is "official" libretro frontend, if you understand libretro as a framework.

AttractMode, EmulationStation, HyperSpin, BigBlue, etc. are general frontends.

[schmerzkaufen]

The only viable reason for me is their shaders system. It's really nice!
What annoys me is they don't always use the best emulators for cores.
And their lag mitigation guidelines are a sin to accuracy and - depending on settings - to fair play as well.
They have ruined the understanding and perception of a whole generation on that topic, and it sucks.

For arcades in particular the right choice is definitely Groovy, it's following MAME and its combined input/video/audio lag methods are lossless.
Now, that said the MiSter lovers will come and nag that their solution is even better, ultimately yes, mainly because they have dedicated developers working and focusing on particular systems and games, besting MAME drivers (while mamedev is driven by the great unknown random of FOSS that can do miracles tomorrow or leave issues unattended for decades)
One could argue MiSter's a bit costly for the individual and limited in reach because of the lack of pure processing power (like cv1k ? yup GM on what's today a cheap PC is still the best for that)

And while mentioning shaders is a bit off-topic; on the non-CRT side, while GM only has HLSL, at the very least for a while now it has been able to perform all its features including the real smooth refresh rates and lag reduction(s) even without installing Emudrivers if you own an AMD card, and without any more hassle than a one-time visit to ingame menu sliders, since it saves settings including the OC ones as a bonus.
Zero messing with obscure manual modes configuration there in this case.
Of course CRT still demands some work but in regards to difficulty of general use the criticism on Groovy is from ppl who haven't tried it a long time, the auto configuartion for AMD cards, the saving sliders for frame_delay and OC, make it massively more convenient and easier than it's ever been before.

Regarding ethics, I won't say much there im no dev, but from an external POV it seemed to me that several emus and related works were simply abandoned by their authors because retroarch stole all the light and attention, whether concerned ppl liked it or not. For that reason some potentially better things might never come to be, I don't like the thought.
NB: also I hated that they encouraged the use of old builds as cores and along the sharing of old roms sets, that's dumb as hell and i cannot think of anything more anti-development progress than that. Even as a end user anyone who uses more than two braincells can see why that's bad for everyone and a finger to developers.

Last word; I've mostly stopped discussing emulation with people when seeing that basically everywhere I went RA users were there celebrating the greatness of it...using old-AF builds and roms, with on top of it lossy - and in cases borderline cheating - lag reduction, to make it worse.
It's not just some devs that have lost faith because of RA.

[psakhis]

I agree with some @schmerzkaufen comments.

For example, if Mednafen has master pcengine core, why not use it instead of libretro fork core? A fork always can be outdated, isn't official... A quick response can be RA has other must have features, but for me with emu4crt i'm ok.

Totally different if libretro core is considered a master core, there are libretro cores that advances only on libretro, for example genesis plus gx.

In fact, there are many mame libretro cores, but groovymame is the best out there... (for pc crt users, ofc)

[donluca]

Anyway, i think MAME should have followed the same way as retroarch.

Thank God it didn't.

[abispac]

Anyway, i think MAME should have followed the same way as retroarch.

Thank God it didn't.

I meant only in thw way that i could run games without the name being exactly as its database or whatever it uses.
It would make life alot easyer.

[Substring]

Arcade is the same everywhere : the rom name must match.

For consoles on mame, you have the -cart that allows you to pass any rom name. BUT: the roms hash must match (if I'm not mistaken, can someone confirm ?)

[Calamity]

For consoles on mame, you have the -cart that allows you to pass any rom name. BUT: the roms hash must match (if I'm not mistaken, can someone confirm ?)

The -cart option allows loading any file, no hash is checked.

Hashes are checked in "software list" mode: mame megadriv sonic -> "sonic" is searched in the "megadriv" xml software list along with "sonic.zip" in the "megadriv" rom path, the zip contents are checked against the hash of the rom that's considered as the correct dump.

[Calamity]

4. (in my absolutely subjective opinion since I, among a few others, contributed to that) Making RA cross the switchres step was a decisive move.

I have to agree specially with this point. Thanks of course to Alphanu and Substring that intermediated to make this happen. But yes, probably RA's populist focus was positive for this.

[abispac]

Arcade is the same everywhere : the rom name must match.

For consoles on mame, you have the -cart that allows you to pass any rom name. BUT: the roms hash must match (if I'm not mistaken, can someone confirm ?)

Holly ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, you just thught me something awsome today, i can ---smurfing--- believe ive been doing this for 20 more years witing for mame to be able to load any game besides the name and i can really do that with the help of rocketlauncher. Now i can build my cocktail cab with split screen and have mame for the console games, its super awsome, thanks alot.

[Trnzaddict]

yes I use retroarch for several systems, BUT my order of priority is;

groovymame > mame > standalone emulator > retroarch

I get the impression that accuracy, fluidity and input lag are always better in the other options than in retroarch.

?

Do you know much about RA? It can deliver lower input latency than even the real hardware via run ahead.

I don’t know what other emulators you’re using (Groovymame aside) that you think have less input latency than you can achieve with RA. Seriously.

[schmerzkaufen]

Groovy can remove most of the lag that shouldn't be there in the 'chain' in ideal conditions, trying to get as close to the real hardware's own delay.
It manages that by attending to input, video, and sound lag all at the same time seamlessly, without altering the legit delay within the game.

RA does things the other - wrong - way around when using run-ahead, eliminating the very portion of delay one shouldn't touch if there's even an ounce of care for proper emulation accuracy, and fair play.

The only excuses I can find to the use of run-ahead is when a player engages online play with lots of delay or uses a quite laggy display.
In practice all I've seen is people abusing that feature without a care in the world and even filing scoring records under conditions that can be considered an advantage even before the actual pcb's run in a cab.
Not that I care much about scoring and speedrunning 'sports' myself, but what is there to brag about victories with run-ahead pedal to the metal ?
You know, there's those streaming idiots who get congratuled beating old high scores with sync off and on top of that running enough frames ahead to blow away the conditions the original scores were achieved with. Thanks RA ?

Damn, IIRC there's even an howto page set up on libretro to explain ppl how many frames they should run ahead per game or system, great way to make sure as many as possible do the wrong thing. The "new normal" I guess ?
No thanks, I take Groovy's lossless/noncheat method over it anytime, sure it's hardware demanding but so is run-ahead.

Calamity will say that anyway VRR is becoming mainstream-enough to recommend over those, so not really worth fighting on the topic anymore...sure, we can sort of move on from these features at relatively low cost and enjoy what's actually the best.
But I'll never forgive RA for the damage it's done to more valuable emulation all these years, along with encouraging ppl to use old builds and roms, their indeed populist discourse messed up a generation's understandiong and practices on the topic of lag/delay.

Groovy all along deserved way more praises for its achievements, I guess that didn't happen because it couldn't shake away its reputation of austere, obscure, hard-to-use build (the latter criticism to be fair was true up until relatively recently)
Even when bits of Groovy's developed features were ported to mainline MAME, ppl mostly didn't realize that these 1) came from Groovy 2) were more adavnced in Groovy proper and that since 2012, unbeknowst to even a large portion of niche players from arcade communities for a long time, and persistently so, like I couldn't believe how misunderstood the -lowlatency feature was day-one and forever since.

Calamity says he laughs it off, but for me that'll always leave a slightly bitter aftertaste, even if I know Groovy's the real winner and virtuous build, can't forget it's the uglier one that dominated the era in people's hearts (edit: and it's not even an emulator ffs, just read this thread's title it's heresy period. WHY. USE. EMULATORS. when there's retoarch? Why eh? )
Damn most ppl don't even care about standalone emulators, I'd bet the bulk user base's average isn't old enough to remember before RA, for them it's just RA cores this, RA does everything best that, and its users support the monopoly like zombies 'spreading the gospel' everywhere they go.

If there's one area where RA has been overwhelmingly better than Groovy, it's communication, skillfully advertising itself and overshadowing legit great achievements and people of the scene.

[abispac]

Calamity says he laughs it off, but for me that'll always leave a slightly bitter aftertaste, even if I know Groovy's the real winner and virtuous build, can't forget it's the uglier one that dominated the era in people's hearts (edit: and it's not even an emulator ffs, just read this thread's title it's heresy period. WHY. USE. EMULATORS. when there's retoarch? Why eh? )
Damn most ppl don't even care about standalone emulators, I'd bet the bulk user base's average isn't old enough to remember before RA, for them it's just RA cores this, RA does everything best that, and its users support the monopoly like zombies 'spreading the gospel' everywhere they go.

If there's one area where RA has been overwhelmingly better than Groovy, it's communication, skillfully advertising itself and overshadowing legit great achievements and people of the scene.

Ill  honest, i dont understand half of what you just say, but, the tittle of my  post was meant to be something ealse, i dont praise RA, but i found it cool to be able to play most console games within a simple setup trhu hyperspin and rocketlauncher. At the moment i was having problems setting up nes and snes games, as zsnesw couldnt detect some resolutions, and snes9x not having an esc option to exit the gmae, also ubernes, wich is my favorite for lcd, had some problems i dont remember right now. And RA took those problems away, making it easy to set up. Now i know there are some emus that have more acuracy and better setting for lcd, than for crt, so i found RA againg cool to set up with crt. Talking about latency or lag, i do notice it in some emus more than other, and since i have not finished my setup on this project, i cant really have an opinion on that right now, but i do know that some relly really make the game almos umplayable as they have so much input lag, ill have to see how RA would work on that matter. Hope RA would find a way to fix any input lag probles the correct way.
Now i found it cool that mame can also load games independet of the game name as long as you have the correct rom. So i might be end up using groovymame for nes and snes,, allthough ill have to find out if the emulation is better than RA cores, as i get a mesage that the emulation is not perfect on every game i load.

[Trnzaddict]

Groovy can remove most of the lag that shouldn't be there in the 'chain' in ideal conditions, trying to get as close to the real hardware's own delay.
It manages that by attending to input, video, and sound lag all at the same time seamlessly, without altering the legit delay within the game.

RA does things the other - wrong - way around when using run-ahead, eliminating the very portion of delay one shouldn't touch if there's even an ounce of care for proper emulation accuracy, and fair play.

The only excuses I can find to the use of run-ahead is when a player engages online play with lots of delay or uses a quite laggy display.
In practice all I've seen is people abusing that feature without a care in the world and even filing scoring records under conditions that can be considered an advantage even before the actual pcb's run in a cab.
Not that I care much about scoring and speedrunning 'sports' myself, but what is there to brag about victories with run-ahead pedal to the metal ?
You know, there's those streaming idiots who get congratuled beating old high scores with sync off and on top of that running enough frames ahead to blow away the conditions the original scores were achieved with. Thanks RA ?

Damn, IIRC there's even an howto page set up on libretro to explain ppl how many frames they should run ahead per game or system, great way to make sure as many as possible do the wrong thing. The "new normal" I guess ?
No thanks, I take Groovy's lossless/noncheat method over it anytime, sure it's hardware demanding but so is run-ahead.

Calamity will say that anyway VRR is becoming mainstream-enough to recommend over those, so not really worth fighting on the topic anymore...sure, we can sort of move on from these features at relatively low cost and enjoy what's actually the best.
But I'll never forgive RA for the damage it's done to more valuable emulation all these years, along with encouraging ppl to use old builds and roms, their indeed populist discourse messed up a generation's understandiong and practices on the topic of lag/delay.

Groovy all along deserved way more praises for its achievements, I guess that didn't happen because it couldn't shake away its reputation of austere, obscure, hard-to-use build (the latter criticism to be fair was true up until relatively recently)
Even when bits of Groovy's developed features were ported to mainline MAME, ppl mostly didn't realize that these 1) came from Groovy 2) were more adavnced in Groovy proper and that since 2012, unbeknowst to even a large portion of niche players from arcade communities for a long time, and persistently so, like I couldn't believe how misunderstood the -lowlatency feature was day-one and forever since.

Calamity says he laughs it off, but for me that'll always leave a slightly bitter aftertaste, even if I know Groovy's the real winner and virtuous build, can't forget it's the uglier one that dominated the era in people's hearts (edit: and it's not even an emulator ffs, just read this thread's title it's heresy period. WHY. USE. EMULATORS. when there's retoarch? Why eh? )
Damn most ppl don't even care about standalone emulators, I'd bet the bulk user base's average isn't old enough to remember before RA, for them it's just RA cores this, RA does everything best that, and its users support the monopoly like zombies 'spreading the gospel' everywhere they go.

If there's one area where RA has been overwhelmingly better than Groovy, it's communication, skillfully advertising itself and overshadowing legit great achievements and people of the scene.

Meh, I don’t care if input lag reduction is done right or wrong.

I care more about pressing a button and saying “Wow, just as responsive if not better than my genesis in my den”

Somebody saying that stand alone emulators other than GM offer better input latency than RA is capable of is absolutely mind boggling to me - sorry.

[abispac]

Groovy can remove most of the lag that shouldn't be there in the 'chain' in ideal conditions, trying to get as close to the real hardware's own delay.
It manages that by attending to input, video, and sound lag all at the same time seamlessly, without altering the legit delay within the game.

RA does things the other - wrong - way around when using run-ahead, eliminating the very portion of delay one shouldn't touch if there's even an ounce of care for proper emulation accuracy, and fair play.

The only excuses I can find to the use of run-ahead is when a player engages online play with lots of delay or uses a quite laggy display.
In practice all I've seen is people abusing that feature without a care in the world and even filing scoring records under conditions that can be considered an advantage even before the actual pcb's run in a cab.
Not that I care much about scoring and speedrunning 'sports' myself, but what is there to brag about victories with run-ahead pedal to the metal ?
You know, there's those streaming idiots who get congratuled beating old high scores with sync off and on top of that running enough frames ahead to blow away the conditions the original scores were achieved with. Thanks RA ?

Damn, IIRC there's even an howto page set up on libretro to explain ppl how many frames they should run ahead per game or system, great way to make sure as many as possible do the wrong thing. The "new normal" I guess ?
No thanks, I take Groovy's lossless/noncheat method over it anytime, sure it's hardware demanding but so is run-ahead.

Calamity will say that anyway VRR is becoming mainstream-enough to recommend over those, so not really worth fighting on the topic anymore...sure, we can sort of move on from these features at relatively low cost and enjoy what's actually the best.
But I'll never forgive RA for the damage it's done to more valuable emulation all these years, along with encouraging ppl to use old builds and roms, their indeed populist discourse messed up a generation's understandiong and practices on the topic of lag/delay.

Groovy all along deserved way more praises for its achievements, I guess that didn't happen because it couldn't shake away its reputation of austere, obscure, hard-to-use build (the latter criticism to be fair was true up until relatively recently)
Even when bits of Groovy's developed features were ported to mainline MAME, ppl mostly didn't realize that these 1) came from Groovy 2) were more adavnced in Groovy proper and that since 2012, unbeknowst to even a large portion of niche players from arcade communities for a long time, and persistently so, like I couldn't believe how misunderstood the -lowlatency feature was day-one and forever since.

Calamity says he laughs it off, but for me that'll always leave a slightly bitter aftertaste, even if I know Groovy's the real winner and virtuous build, can't forget it's the uglier one that dominated the era in people's hearts (edit: and it's not even an emulator ffs, just read this thread's title it's heresy period. WHY. USE. EMULATORS. when there's retoarch? Why eh? )
Damn most ppl don't even care about standalone emulators, I'd bet the bulk user base's average isn't old enough to remember before RA, for them it's just RA cores this, RA does everything best that, and its users support the monopoly like zombies 'spreading the gospel' everywhere they go.

If there's one area where RA has been overwhelmingly better than Groovy, it's communication, skillfully advertising itself and overshadowing legit great achievements and people of the scene.

Meh, I don’t care if input lag reduction is done right or wrong.

I care more about pressing a button and saying “Wow, just as responsive if not better than my genesis in my den”

Somebody saying that stand alone emulators other than GM offer better input latency than RA is capable of is absolutely mind boggling to me - sorry.

I actually also agree with this, as long as it works, i dont care how its done.

[schmerzkaufen]

Meh, I don’t care if input lag reduction is done right or wrong.

I care more about pressing a button and saying “Wow, just as responsive if not better than my genesis in my den”

Yeah that's the problem. It's wrong af and inaccurate, and you don't care, RA's users and heralds, because they don't see understand the problems with it, are a different culture than MAME and Groovy.

It's mindboggling to me that ppl don't care about anything related to accuracy yet praise the quality of a software like RA, which encourages people to use obsolete builds and lossy, incaccurate lag reduction that allows to cheat reality by making games more responsive than the originals.

Somebody saying that stand alone emulators other than GM offer better input latency than RA is capable of is absolutely mind boggling to me - sorry.

I defend Groovy's lag reduction and not randomly 'stand alone emulators' lag reduction on that topic (how many standalones feature lag reduction anyway?). My focus is on what Groovy's best for which is arcades emulation thanks to it's indeed overall more correct video/input/sound lag reduction vs. RA's run-ahead.
Groovy's method gets rid of all the unwanted lag generated by suboptimal sync, input and hardware, not the legit one that's part of the game.



EDIT: something I read once that made me raise an eyebrow, is ppl praising MiSteR over MAME after having basically used RA with many years-old cores and romsets found on archives.org Right, so they praised fresh development vs. very outdated. Well, Captain Obvious and friends ?
"well than sounds logical but why don't you use the up-to-date MAME core for compare?" "it doesnt work with my roms" "savestates dont wonrk with it" etc etc

Other example: RA user dragging Groovy through the mud while they were using again an old-af build; all issues and much more were actually fixed in the at the time current build, but their excuse for not using it ? the up-to-date Groovy build didn't match the old romsets they owned.

Or the heroes who 'beat' a number of longstanding high scores with technically 2 to sometimes maybe 3 frames faster response than even the pcb in a cab, thanks to RA. Yay, what heroes...

I think people just see and hear what they wanna see if that's convenient to them and ---fudgesicle--- reason.
I remember ppl on shmups debating the issue of RA allowing lower lag then the original and the legitimacy of the high scores achieved with that, in short the party defending RA first acted innocent, then admitted they knew it's lower than the real, and proceeded to basically say 'why should it matter, it's better this way', calling the original game's lag 'arbitrary' then making up narratives to try and make defendants of accuracy look like the bad guys.
Alternative thruth is clearly the winner broken logic of this century.

Obsolete emulator builds and lossy-cheaty lag reduction ? harmful to the legit emu dev scene ? smoke and mirrors ? demographics who don't care ? yup that's RA.
Argueably, to make it worse MAME deliberately and stubbornly maintained and even strengthened its position on a policy that didn't please and at times gave finger to the end users base, and they lost massive demographics to RA. And Groovy achieved/finalized its major user-friendly features updates only recently, while that 'war' is technically already over and ppl are now looking up affordable VRR and MiSteR.
But that doesn't absolve RA at all.

[Calamity]

Why buy eslewhere when there's Amazon?

[schmerzkaufen]

Indeed. And yet, that'd a be valid if we were talking exact same 'products', but with the popularity of cores based off antediluvian builds, and lossy-cheaty lag reduction, it's not a direct comparison.

It's more like they're arguing that Wish.com is the better choice.

EDIT: maybe Wish is too harsh so let's say aliexpress. 

[Zebidee]

I actually agree with all of you.

But appreciate Schmerz more, for explaining exactly why Groovymame is better. And Calamity again, for caring about what's real.

Yet also appreciate how some people just want to play games. Like, you can play Galaga on a smart phone, or maybe a pregnancy tester (not quite real, but who cares?).

Was thinking, maybe there is some weird logic to running Genesis games on cores based off antediluvian builds?

Unfortunately I don't get amazon.com here.

[schmerzkaufen]

I'm not the best person to explain but seriously there's ppl here and other places who in about the past 20 years have scienced the fck out the matter of delay, identifying all possible sources in a lag chain and strive to produce worthy* solutions against it, yet what do people rush on like starved lemmings ?

In place of the right stuff the overwhelmingly popular 'quick and dirty solutions' are disabling all manners of sync at the cost of tearing (inherited from old PC gaming beliefs but completely unnecessary today even when you don't own VRR), and a imitation of an old run-ahead technique that was meant to compensate for high ping at the expense of messing up the game's timing accuracy proper. Oh and hacking into game buffers (shmupmame).

And as for emulation proper, devs and contributors over 20 years in attending to core emulation of tons of systems, still updating and fixing today as we talk ? does it matter ?
 nope, ppl go for the build versions of 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago calling them 'better'.
Go figure. Ah yes, remind us who's responsible for that trend already ?

PS: as for MD idk why ppl bring it to the discussion all the time, right now I am arguing about the worth of what we have for arcades emulation and lag mitigation, expanding to everything else is tempting but that would be a lot of work so I'm limiting my ranting to that. Thought it was necessary to state it again.


* Worthy solutions: practical while not betraying the original emulated game/system's accuracy. meaning valid for the sake of preservation, and not allowing stealth cheating (lower lag than actual real game breaking timings, plus undetectable feature = cheating). frame_delay is valid, VRR is valid, running proper cores off FPGA is valid, but hacking into game's code to disable inner buffers like ShmupMAME did, or running frames ahead like RA and derivates permits, aren't valid solutions. disabling vsync isn't invalid per-se, just completely outdated and un unnecessary pain now.
Guess what? all I've seen these past 10 years or so is that the latter three have been the overwhelming most popular. Sometimes I understand devs that come to hate end users (not always but still ) Makes you understand why it was so easy for slimy populists to channel the attention of the bulk towards their snake oil sale.
Anyway for the sake of redundancy this war is already over, im beating a dead horse, a niche of smart ppl will keep using Groovy with or without CRT, or look into VRR and MiSteR.

[donluca]

I actually also agree with this, as long as it works, i dont care how its done.

I actually have to thank you for making this precise statement because right here we have, in one sentence, all that has gone wrong during the early days of emulation where no one cared about how it was done "as long as it worked".

What happened then is that people started discovering that there were things that weren't working right and two groups emerged: the "I don't care because everything else works" and the "ok, this might affect other parts of the emulation so we have to stop and investigate further".

One of those group eventually went on to sacrifice accuracy for convenience and are now part of the various cheapo emulation devices using Final Burn and other old, unsupported emulators which have thousands of game because they are "good enough" and they "can't tell the difference", the other group is now on the FPGA boat (MiSTer, Analogue, etc.)

The issue with the "as long as it works it's ok" is that when something doesn't work, a ugly hack gets made which eventually may break something else and this goes on and on until the code is such a mess as to be unmaintainable anymore and people stop developing (and some start from scratch).

Saying "I don't care how it's done because it works" is a very poor statement long term, it's like patching a leaking tube with a piece of insulation tape.
Yeah, it works, but for how long will it hold?
What are the long term consequences?
And when it breaks, what are you going to do?

It's better to do things right straight away (and trust me, even if you put all your efforts into it you'll never get it right, it will take years of research, development and testing, to get to a point where you can confidently say "ok, it is done") and invest more time and sacrifice performance and usability (which can always be added at a later time), rather than get out something which "works for now".

I hope we'll not get back to the dark ages of emulation for the sake of convenience.

[schmerzkaufen]

Groovy does have an emulation hack feature (OC) but since there's maybe only like 3 people on Earth including me who actually use it there's hardly any danger that it'll do any harm either on the short or long term 
I expected it to be popular with the shmuppers, RA stole the spotlight again with an old mame core and a feral supporter impossible to reason with. if RA and its minions even overshadow builds better for hacking, there's really not a single area left protected againts its influence.

IMO the dark ages of emulation never ended, rather we're still in the middle of a 'golden dark age', because I think there's a clear majority of users who for already a long time have experienced emulation only through RA, while more sound devs and users have been living in thinning niche communitites with almost no influence, no voice left.

Well no, sorry, again MiSTeR is the exception, it's rather well known and popular for the good reasons, I think.
And Groovy's pretty well rounded and healthy after all, MAME's not dead even if it's in a bubble.
There is still hope. 

[Trnzaddict]

Meh, I don’t care if input lag reduction is done right or wrong.

I care more about pressing a button and saying “Wow, just as responsive if not better than my genesis in my den”

Yeah that's the problem. It's wrong af and inaccurate, and you don't care, RA's users and heralds, because they don't see understand the problems with it, are a different culture than MAME and Groovy.

It's mindboggling to me that ppl don't care about anything related to accuracy yet praise the quality of a software like RA, which encourages people to use obsolete builds and lossy, incaccurate lag reduction that allows to cheat reality by making games more responsive than the originals.

Somebody saying that stand alone emulators other than GM offer better input latency than RA is capable of is absolutely mind boggling to me - sorry.

I defend Groovy's lag reduction and not randomly 'stand alone emulators' lag reduction on that topic (how many standalones feature lag reduction anyway?). My focus is on what Groovy's best for which is arcades emulation thanks to it's indeed overall more correct video/input/sound lag reduction vs. RA's run-ahead.
Groovy's method gets rid of all the unwanted lag generated by suboptimal sync, input and hardware, not the legit one that's part of the game.



EDIT: something I read once that made me raise an eyebrow, is ppl praising MiSteR over MAME after having basically used RA with many years-old cores and romsets found on archives.org Right, so they praised fresh development vs. very outdated. Well, Captain Obvious and friends ?
"well than sounds logical but why don't you use the up-to-date MAME core for compare?" "it doesnt work with my roms" "savestates dont wonrk with it" etc etc

Other example: RA user dragging Groovy through the mud while they were using again an old-af build; all issues and much more were actually fixed in the at the time current build, but their excuse for not using it ? the up-to-date Groovy build didn't match the old romsets they owned.

Or the heroes who 'beat' a number of longstanding high scores with technically 2 to sometimes maybe 3 frames faster response than even the pcb in a cab, thanks to RA. Yay, what heroes...

I think people just see and hear what they wanna see if that's convenient to them and ---fudgesicle--- reason.
I remember ppl on shmups debating the issue of RA allowing lower lag then the original and the legitimacy of the high scores achieved with that, in short the party defending RA first acted innocent, then admitted they knew it's lower than the real, and proceeded to basically say 'why should it matter, it's better this way', calling the original game's lag 'arbitrary' then making up narratives to try and make defendants of accuracy look like the bad guys.
Alternative thruth is clearly the winner broken logic of this century.

Obsolete emulator builds and lossy-cheaty lag reduction ? harmful to the legit emu dev scene ? smoke and mirrors ? demographics who don't care ? yup that's RA.
Argueably, to make it worse MAME deliberately and stubbornly maintained and even strengthened its position on a policy that didn't please and at times gave finger to the end users base, and they lost massive demographics to RA. And Groovy achieved/finalized its major user-friendly features updates only recently, while that 'war' is technically already over and ppl are now looking up affordable VRR and MiSteR.
But that doesn't absolve RA at all.

I’m not denying RA promoted the use of older MAME builds and what not. That is not what my comment was about at all. I’m talking INPUT LATENCY compared to stand alone’s besides GM.

I was simply asking a question to MK3FANATIC as to how one draws the conclusion that stand alone emulators have less input latency than what RA is capable of.

I’m not interested in all the other caveats RA has. You’re writing book responses back about how botched RA is. I’m not arguing over what software is more accurate as a whole. 

[schmerzkaufen]

I’m not denying RA promoted the use of older MAME builds and what not. That is not what my comment was about at all. I’m talking INPUT LATENCY compared to stand alone’s besides GM.

I was simply asking a question to MK3FANATIC as to how one draws the conclusion that stand alone emulators have less input latency than what RA is capable of.

I’m not interested in all the other caveats RA has. You’re writing book responses back about how botched RA is. I’m not arguing over what software is more accurate as a whole.

Well excuse my bad eyes but it's me you quoted...and unless I hallucinated and copied a cake recipe you pretty much stated what I quoted, and I've answered on-topic.
it's lenghty sure, and yes I've enlarged the topic, but even putting aside the extras; have you ever heard of Brandolini's law ?

It's easy for people to just drop something controversial (to use a polite term) say "I don't care" with that - goto donluca's post no need to repeat - then when they get comprehensive replies from people who don't agree - which here on GroovyMAME forum was bound to come - just say "no need for a wall of text" when it happens.

I mean...idk what kind of reactions ppl expect after coming and dropping bombs like that here of all places, and on an topic that's obviously not a casual one.  :
It's no discord...


Predictive note: Wait for it gents, next post I'll definitely have the role of the villain. This is the usual process.

If that can help some feeling more comfortable, I can say good things about RA, again its shaders system is absolutely great, and after all we're not forced to use run-ahead, though unlike what we did for Groovy we haven't measured the effects of hard gpu sync and RA's own implementation of frame_delay, together I suppose these features can offer pretty decent results without breaking accuracy. Dunno what the audio lag reduction is worth compared to Portaudio also. And well one can still use an up-to-date MAME core if those are still maintained at libretro.

I would tell more but that would be too long. Maybe in another volume. 

[abispac]

Why buy eslewhere when there's Amazon?

I got the point, im not a fan of RA, i jus thought it was cool it makes things easyer to set up.

Donluca

Well you also have to realize the world is vast and has alot of humans in it. Some are perfecionist, some are not. Some enjoy the games as long as they work, some look for the perfection. Thats why we now have FPGA lover stating that fpga is more acurate, and till this day, my simple mind fails to  understand, how a simple underpowered board would work better than mame that now runs on some most of the powerfull computers and gpus that world offers. Yet they claim  its a lot better, im still trying to get my hands on a mister board to test wheter robotron really works better on fpga than in mame. Maybe one day.

To everyone ealse: This post was meant for me to see what the pros and cons of using RA instead of emulators. Theres no doubt that groovymame is far superior  to use on crt's, but to my simple mind, all other emulators where not created with crts in mind, so setting up multiple consoles within RA and having them using the RA 15khz function,  was way easyer than setting up a bunch of emus. Hey i dont even like RA, im using rocketlauncher with hyperspin , RA is just some kind of man in the middle.
I never though that RA is doing things wrong, and has some developer hate for that, an you are right  mr

schmerzkaufen

using the latest developed software out there would always be better than using the old stuff. Over the years many many talented developers have worked together to make this as perfect as it can. So we should honor those talented guys by testing out what they have done.

So my final word on this matter, as an end user. 

I really hope RA would fix theyr input lag method they way it should be implemented.
Theres public for both things, perfectly working  and as log as it works, (heck, i saw a guy playing pacman on a strech out horizontal image and he was happy with it). So i guess if you having fun with it, then keep going.
I really thank everyone in the world, involved in all of this, from the hardware donors, to developers and even hackers that break protections, ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- , i remembered back in the day when everyone was exited about cps3.
I hope ill get to test fpga vs mame to see if the fuss is true.
Since most console emulators  are abandoned  , then RA its a good alternative to load them up on crts monitors, together with rocket launcher and hyperspin , as RA has a much ugly interface.

Thanks Calamity , and everyone else that comented here, feel free to keep going, maybe ill learn something new.

[donluca]

Well you also have to realize the world is vast and has alot of humans in it.

This is the tragedy of modern society which dictates not only how the market works, but also other unrelated stuff which follows the same rules.

Just like electricity, humans will always follow the path of least resistance.
Give them two options, a very easy with a mediocre result and a hard one with excellent result and most of people will always choose the easy one.

Doing things properly require a lot of effort, which demands more "in return", which immediately turns off most people.
So, say, a FPGA developer is looking at a user base of 1000 people whereas Retroarch is looking at possibly 10 times that, if not more.
That alone makes it way more appealing for developers to choose Retroarch rather than FPGA: less work, bigger user base, happier number of users who will benefit from your work.
It's an inescapable cycle.

So what can we do about this?
The only thing we can do is educate people and teach them the differences so that they can make a better choice for themselves, whatever that will be.

MiSTer is not better than a powerful PC with good emulators: it simply has more dedicated people who are decapping real chips and studying them very thoroughly so the result is exceptional. It's as simple as that.

The good thing is that all the cores and documentation are open source and freely available, so hopefully there will be someone at some point who's going to backport all the good work on MiSTer back in MAME and other emulators and, at that point, there will be no almost no differences: MiSTer will have the edge on ease of use, almost instant startup, small, cheaper, vastly lower power consumption and lower input lag.

And that's going to be that.
For someone MiSTer might be more appealing already for the reasons stated above, a bit like how RaspberryPi gained a lot of traction in the retrogaming community, disregarding the more accurate emulation.

Anyway, I'm happy you're going to get a MiSTer and try it out, I'll look forward your thoughts.

[MK3FANATIC]

Do you know much about RA? It can deliver lower input latency than even the real hardware via run ahead.

I don’t know what other emulators you’re using (Groovymame aside) that you think have less input latency than you can achieve with RA. Seriously.

Yes I know about the latency features of retroarch. And it was not a conclusion, just my perception and preference. Some emulators I prefer to use standalone instead of retroarch; are PPSSPP, Flycast and Dolphin, not only specifically for input lag, in my setup I feel that the performance in general is better on them than on their respective retroarch cores.

I'm sorry, for the playful way I wrote it (...>...>) it may have given the impression that I consider RA a bad option and that it's always the last choice, but that's not it, quite the contrary, I use it for some systems (where mame still doesn't work) as a first option and it does a great job, especially after adding switchres 2.

[abispac]

Anyway, I'm happy you're going to get a MiSTer and try it out, I'll look forward your thoughts.

is gonna take a wild, 200+ dollars is alot of money.

[dmckean]

The good thing is that all the cores and documentation are open source and freely available, so hopefully there will be someone at some point who's going to backport all the good work on MiSTer back in MAME and other emulators and, at that point, there will be no almost no differences.

The MiSTer developers are already getting most of this info from the documentation that was used to write current software emulators. The developers of software emulators just don't consider it worth the effort to implement. It's a ton easier to implement in FPGA because everything can be executed in parallel just like actual hardware. Taking this same approach in software is going to result in something that runs at .2 frames per second.

FPGA modules are going to start showing up in mainstream CPUs in the next several years though. That will change everything.

[psakhis]

FPGA modules are going to start showing up in mainstream CPUs in the next several years though. That will change everything.

FPGA's are very expensive...for example we don't see a dreamcast implemented on it.

[dmckean]

FPGA modules are going to start showing up in mainstream CPUs in the next several years though. That will change everything.

FPGA's are very expensive...for example we don't see a dreamcast implemented on it.

They're expensive now because they're made for niche uses but they won't be forever when they start showing up on mainstream CPUs. AMD didn't spend all that money on Xilinx for nothing.

The reason we don't see Dreamcast implemented on FPGA is the massive amount of man hours it would take to create such a thing. You would probably need a team for 20 people working full time for two years. Probably double that for PS2. 

[psakhis]

FPGA existed long before de10 nano, and always at exorbitant prices

[abispac]

FPGA is expencive now, but i believe in the future, it will be just as emulators, someone will figure out a way to implement a front end, and special normal price cpus will be cheaper. I hope so LOL but to be honest i dont really care, 200 bucks seems a fair price for original alike hardware. What we really need, is a company that would start fabricating crt arcade monitors againg, as they gonna die sometime, even with people using rgb mods on tvs, tvs also going to die sometime, not soon , but sometime.

[Recapnation]

Donluca and 'Kaufen's replies are plain arcade-centric whereas the original poster was asking about console emulators, I'd say. Trying to address the question -- years ago, and I bet things haven't changed much in this regard, RA was indeed better than some of the original emulators it "borrows" regarding latency due to how these implement video and audio synchonization or just to how they're coded to generate every frame, the most notable example being BSNES/Higan, which is known for being basically the only accurate SFC/SNES emulator (even over Mister), so it's a case that matters. Never paid enough attention, but it'd be interesting if they (RA) implemented it with the PPSSPP core as this emulator's terrible in this regard, though last I heard, it was not really possible without a major rewrite.

Notice that this is previous to the run-ahead cr~p, which one should indeed ignore if one gives a damn f~ck about the original games, as 'Kaufen so neatly pointed. So it's not about removing any of the original lag, which indeed should be there if only because the games were built around it -- sadly, knowing exactly what's the original latency in every instance is never easy, but that's another subject altogether.

Also, RA just makes usable many of those stand-alone emulators on a 15-kHz CRT, which expect a desktop res. of 800 * 600 or above.

RA wouldn't actually matter if it weren't because MAME's console emulation is generally so unfinished, though, even if we're talking just about 8- and 16-bit machines. For those, a Mister device sounds like a better option than RA in a near future (glitches and discrepancies still being reported as of now even for the most popular cores, I'm afraid), if only because all the meaningful developments in this area are being made there these days, though they indeed often used the best PC emulators as their base, as mentioned. Additionally, Mister improves the emulation of not few arcade games over MAME's. And in some cases, those are improvements which cannot be ported to MAME. So if you care (much) about some essential pieces like pre-CPS3 Capcom's, a Mister device is more than recommended, as they'll always run better there than under Groovy MAME.

For 32-bit systems and beyond I'd never use emulation, just to give my entire opinion, in case it matters.

Not that I care much about scoring and speedrunning 'sports' myself, but what is there to brag about victories with run-ahead pedal to the metal ?

I remember ppl on shmups debating the issue of RA allowing lower lag then the original and the legitimacy of the high scores achieved with that, in short the party defending RA first acted innocent, then admitted they knew it's lower than the real, and proceeded to basically say 'why should it matter, it's better this way', calling the original game's lag 'arbitrary' then making up narratives to try and make defendants of accuracy look like the bad guys.

It just adds to the exogenous autofire, non-proper controllers, credit-feeding/save states for practicing, You-Tube abuse and so on. There have been so many arbitrary "new normals" now that competition always was anything but meaningful. RA generally stinks, but it's not the one to blame over this.

Yet also appreciate how some people just want to play games. Like, you can play Galaga on a smart phone, or maybe a pregnancy tester (not quite real, but who cares?).

That would not actually be Galaga, though?

[Zebidee]

Yet also appreciate how some people just want to play games. Like, you can play Galaga on a smart phone, or maybe a pregnancy tester (not quite real, but who cares?).

That would not actually be Galaga, though?

Exactly the point of my teasing rhetorical question 

If the emulation is not authentic, does not allow you to play the game as it was originally, then it is not really the same game.

Everyone will have a slightly different take on whether this is important or not. So long as people are having fun, I guess.

[abispac]

Ok , so lets change the topic a little bit. In your opinion, Whats the best emulator for 15khz monitors?   We know Groovymame is best for Arcade in general.

1.- Nes
2.- Snes
3.- Sega (master,cd and 32x)

Feel free to add more, but those are the only ones i care.

[haynor666]

I use RA only when I have to. ST-V emulation (I hope that recent Mednafen addition will change this) and some other emus that are simply better than other emulators or when standalone emulator is worse than RA core (flycast works better for me in RA). Generally it's configuration and usage is really annoying, specifically when I use super resolutions.

I simply find groovymame (or mame in general) to be better choice for arcade. Sadly for console mame still needs lots of work.

AS for list here are best emulators that use or used with CRTs:

For NES try MESEN thought I didn't check standalone emulator usage with CRTs yet but RA core exits. I prefer emulation due lack of RGB from NES but when I mod my NES I'll abandom this emu.
For SNES - bsnes but again - I didn't check standalone emulator usage with CRTs yet but RA core exits. I use real hardware with exception for some games with custom chips that I cannot play with Super Everdrive.
For Megadrive/Master System - for years I use Kefa Fusion, it worked with CRTs but rely on ddraw fuctions and it's not updated for years. I don't how it runs on Windows 10  so these days it's probably to stick to RA core of blast'em. I use real hardware now (Megadrive, Master System (Master System games also works through adapter or using Mega Everdrive), 32X and Mega CD)

For Naomi/Naomi 2/Atomiswave - flycast (nulldc successor) but like I mentioned earlier RA core work better for me with super resolutions for example standalone flycast does not want to remember rotation option and I cannot force it to run correctly from command line.
For ST-V ( as for yesterday) - Kronos RA core. Some games are faster and can be played at full speed. Time to test mednafen
For PS1 - Mednafen worked for me best but I prefer real hardware. Many people hovewer are using RA Beetle PSX core. It's has hardware 3D acceleration version.
For Saturn - also Mednafen but I prefer real hardware.
For PC Engine/PC-Engine CD I used for years Ootake. At that time I use only native resolutions. I didn't tested super resolutions but Mednafen seems to be better especially for running from command line/frontend.
For old PC hardware - for most adventure games and strategies it would be better to stick to DOSBox RA corefor a sake of simple use but for platform games and better accuracy I would stick to PCem mod from psakhis (tested on CRTs)
For GameBoy/GameBoy Color - BGB, all others failed to work correctly on CRT with native and/or super resolution (including RetroArch). I need exact square picture on screen just like real gameboy screen is but many emulators does not wan't to set proper aspect ratio. Mednafen failed in terms of bugs. RA is right now untested.

Usefull resource - http://nonmame.retrogames.com/

[donluca]

Donluca and 'Kaufen's replies are plain arcade-centric whereas the original poster was asking about console emulators, I'd say.

Quite the contrary to be honest.
I was addressing more the emulation situation as a whole.

[psakhis]

According to my tests and preferences:
 Nintendo -> Mesen RA core
 Super Nintendo -> Bsnes RA core
 SMS/Genesis -> Genesis plus gx RA core
 Dreamcast/Naomi/Naomi2/Atomis -> Demul but here i can doubt with Redream/Flycast in some cases
 PS1 -> Mednafen on emu4crt
 Saturn/ST-V -> Mednafen on emu4crt
 PCE/PCFX -> Mednafen on emucrt
 PC -> Dosbox Pure RA / PCem4crt, PCem4crt is more accurate but with RA you can savestates, so it depends
 Gamecube / Wii -> Dolphin standalone
 PS2 -> PCSX2 standalone
 PSP -> PPSPP standalone
 Jaguar -> Phoenix standalone
 3DO -> Phoenix standalone
 N64 -> Project64 with parallel plugin standalone
 GBA -> Mgba RA core
 PC98 -> Np2kai RA core
 X68k -> Winx68k 15khz patched standalone
 MSX -> Bluemsx RA core
 
Ofc groovymame for all arcade, neogeo and in some cases works well for x68k, msx, etc.

[donluca]

I can't believe it's 2022 and people are still using Genesis Plus GX.

I really need to talk to the developer of blast'em and see if he can implement support for switchres so it can output native res and refresh rate.

[B2K24]

GroovyMAME runs all the consoles I care about like NES, SNES, Genesis, ETC. Plus, some of the consoles have cheats too. I don't really see a reason to use other emulators when I'm gaming on my CRTs.

I have a real N64 plus Everdrive X7 so that takes care of that

Software lists and GM are just soooo convenient. I use a N64 joypad connected to my PC with a USB converter and have GM menu buttons configed to my pad.
Best lazy gaming ever while kicking back

[abispac]

GroovyMAME runs all the consoles I care about like NES, SNES, Genesis, ETC. Plus, some of the consoles have cheats too. I don't really see a reason to use other emulators when I'm gaming on my CRTs.

I have a real N64 plus Everdrive X7 so that takes care of that

Software lists and GM are just soooo convenient. I use a N64 joypad connected to my PC with a USB converter and have GM menu buttons configed to my pad.
Best lazy gaming ever while kicking back

but everytime i run nes and snes it says emulation is not perfect...

[haynor666]

Because it's not perfect really. Better to stick with other emulators as mentioned already.

Just because any kind emulators will not be 100% perfect I stick to real hardware when I can. So far I forced to use emus for:

Atari VCS/2600 - personally it's too primitive system for me these days but sometimes I play some game for nostalgia. I have real hardware but video output is really ugly
Atari Jaguar - plan to emulate because because I don't have real console or flashcart. Console is expensive but not to many games to play
Atari ST - there was a plan but due to the fact that 99,99% games are on amiga and 99,99% are better on amiga I skipped this system

PC-FX - I don't have real hardware I don't have any plans to buy, I'm interested only in two games

Nintendo Entertainment System - lack of RGB but I have real console and Everdrive so in the future then I finally mod my NES I move to real hardware
Super Nintendo Entertainment System (only for some games with customs chips like Mega Man X3, Metal Falcon, I hope to upgrade to FXPAK Pro in the future)
Nintendo 64 - lack of RGB so emu for now, besides I don't have Everdrive for this console, some games that I like I have but in german version :/
GameBoy - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag. GB games can be played on SNES using Super Game Boy and I have it but I don't have Everdrive for GB
GameBoy Color, GameBoy Advance - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag even if I have GameBoy Player for Gamecube. All games are working in interlace mode with stretching which I really don't like. I have some chinese flashcart but I never tested with GameBoy player
NDS, 3DS - I plan to emulate for better display but those systems have two screen (not to comfortable when I have one CRT rotated for vertical games). Also screen with touch sensor had to be simulated with mouse. For now I use real hardware and flashcart

GameGear - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag and blur. Even if I have console I don't have any flashcart


I use real hardware:
C64 (s-video is ok for me)
Amiga 500, Amiga 1200
CD32/CDTV (barely used, CD32 does not have RGB, it's better to play on Amiga 1200 using WHDload)
Philips CD-i
Panasonic 3DO (s-video sadly, I hope to get RGB version someday)
Atari 130XE (s-video is ok for me)
Amstrad CPC6128
Master System, Megadrive, Sega 32X, Mega CD (but I hope to upgrade to Mega Everdrive Pro and left CD extension)
Saturn (mod), Dreamcast (mod)
GameCube, Wii
PSX (mod), PS2 (soft mod), PS3
Xbox, Xbox360
PC Engine CD (I use SSD3 actually, it emulated CD so there is no need to attach CD extension)

PC hardware - that depends. Old low res 2D games usually looks better on CRT (platform games like Turrican II, Jim Power,  etc. and adventure games like Monkey Island 2, Discworld) but hires games (Syndicate, Settlers using SVGA mode, Discworld II) I prefer run on real hardware through VGA CRT either using DOSBox or straight on real hardware

[Recapnation]

So many systems and no mention of the X-68000 or the PC-8801 Mk-II SR? Much better than all the Ataris and the Commodores put together, no kidding. The former should have decent emulation on MAME these days (keep in mind that not all games were lo-res, though); WIN X68k (even with Calamity's patch) had many games with flaws and lag was too high there. For the 88SR I think that both, M88 and Project X88000 are 15-kHz-friendly. M88 is discontinued but an English version is around, if I recall. The X-1 [Turbo] is also an interesting computer with the best versions of some 8-bit classics and some exclusive titles. MAME's emulation was preliminary when I checked, but I don't think there's any other valid option for 15-kHz (?). Then there's the PC-88 VA with too few games to really care, but 88VA Eternal Grafx was 15-kHz-compatible as well, for the curious. The MSX 2 [Plus] is not bad with MAME's emulation, either (and the MSX Turbo-R as well?).

GameBoy Advance - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag even if I have GameBoy Player for Gamecube. All games are working in interlace mode with stretching which I really don't like.

Check the Swiss project for the GCN. Never had the console so I can't tell you much, but it's sure you can use non-scaled 15-kHz progressive GBA visuals with it. Doesn't seem to be a better option in general than WIN emulators or Mister, though.

Donluca and 'Kaufen's replies are plain arcade-centric whereas the original poster was asking about console emulators, I'd say.

Quite the contrary to be honest.
I was addressing more the emulation situation as a whole.

My mistake, sorry. I think I read author names too fast that day. Too much text for a forum thread, I guess.

[schmerzkaufen]

^ I focused on arcades as I explained for the sake of avoiding drifting topics and because that's the primary reason for me and people being here as GM users tbh,
and because the global issue directly related to it is that RA encouraged people using old MAME builds/cores
as well as the wrongest way to mitigate lag (run-ahead), but that's a valid criticism for other emus anyway.

Some RA users would love to minimize the issue and isolate critics, but no it's not just one or two little problems that would exist solely in the eyes of a handful of nitpicky old grouchs.
No.
The fact that they don't uderstand how RA hurts the scene of emu development and games preservation with its cores policy, nor the struggle against lag and why run-ahead's the wrong way, the implications and why that matters for fair play too, is their sin, not ours.

And yes it fckn infuriates me that they're literally invading each and every community (not an exaggeration) with RA propaganda, 'helping' people learn about it and therefore pushing the decline of more worthy emulation and preservation.
Makes me lose faith in humanity* gamers as a whole.




* That is an exaggeration here lol, yes, but realistically the mindset of libretro and the RA demographics is completely in tune with the present era's dominant 'zoomer anti-philosophy' as I'd call it, while the old guard even being technically in the right, has made sure to make its side as closed, repulsive and hostile as possible in reaction (and tbh are in part responsible for the emergence of RA even if they will never admit it). While it's not something we can just reduce to age, it's a genuine case of radically different ways of thinking and relationship to society.
I'm a realist, I said it : the war is over, the RA party and its ways largely won, and there's nothing we can do against that, it is too late for teaching and dialogue. Good emulation will only continue to live through the FPGA dev craze and a niche of subsisting MAME and other standalone emus contributors and users. A surviving niche/minority is not a success, it's a defeat ffs.
I know many heads of the niche crowd refuse to admit it, and blame only RA and kin + end users, but they didn't take action to bridge the gaps. Easy to forget a major part of RA users were MAME and other emus users at first, eh? Though these days anyway MAME don't give a rat's ass about all that and are happy in their bubble.

[haynor666]

So many systems and no mention of the X-68000 or the PC-8801 Mk-II SR? Much better than all the Ataris and the Commodores put together, no kidding. The former should have decent emulation on MAME these days (keep in mind that not all games were lo-res, though); WIN X68k (even with Calamity's patch) had many games with flaws and lag was too high there. For the 88SR I think that both, M88 and Project X88000 are 15-kHz-friendly. M88 is discontinued but an English version is around, if I recall. The X-1 [Turbo] is also an interesting computer with the best versions of some 8-bit classics and some exclusive titles. MAME's emulation was preliminary when I checked, but I don't think there's any other valid option for 15-kHz (?). Then there's the PC-88 VA with too few games to really care, but 88VA Eternal Grafx was 15-kHz-compatible as well, for the curious. The MSX 2 [Plus] is not bad with MAME's emulation, either (and the MSX Turbo-R as well?).

Most of  these systems are from my childhood (owned or owned by my friends) so that's why I'm using them - NES (actually it's clone - Pegasus),  GB, GBC, GBA, Atari 130XE, C64, Amiga 500, Amiga 1200 (model from November 1992 so I own from beginning of it's market life), Megadrive PSX, PS2. Many system I discovered later (PC Engine)or simply I  didn't access (SNES, N64) because none of my friends had one.

Most of games that I know on X68000 are simply arcade conversions. I didn't find so far too many games to justify system emulation not to mention buying it
As for PC-8801 - I was never interested it's library just like many other japanese only computers. So many computers and games :/

GameBoy Advance - i prefer to play on CRT screen rather small LCD with noticable lag even if I have GameBoy Player for Gamecube. All games are working in interlace mode with stretching which I really don't like.

Check the Swiss project for the GCN. Never had the console so I can't tell you much, but it's sure you can use non-scaled 15-kHz progressive GBA visuals with it. Doesn't seem to be a better option in general than WIN emulators or Mister, though.

It seems tool is not designed to run GBA games using GameCube. GBA player is almost perfect but forcing stretched picture in interlace mode does not look to good. On the other hand since it's official Nintendo addon we safely assume it's perfect - just like GameBoy Player for SNES has all GBA hardware built in.

[Recapnation]

^ I focused on arcades as I explained for the sake of avoiding drifting topics and because that's the primary reason for me and people being here as GM users tbh,
and because the global issue directly related to it is that RA encouraged people using old MAME builds/cores
as well as the wrongest way to mitigate lag (run-ahead), but that's a valid criticism for other emus anyway.

Some RA users would love to minimize the issue and isolate critics, but no it's not just one or two little problems that would exist solely in the eyes of a handful of nitpicky old grouchs.
No.
The fact that they don't uderstand how RA hurts the scene of emu development and games preservation with its cores policy, nor the struggle against lag and why run-ahead's the wrong way, the implications and why that matters for fair play too, is their sin, not ours.

I don't like the RA project. The way they've pissed actual emulator devs and their eager to make money no matter how should suffice. But you can't blame them for destroying fair play since fair play was destroyed way before RA, as I pointed. The run-ahead feature is toxic, but it's just another tool in the hacking box. And the people like hacking as there's never been proper gaming education. Infinite lives codes succeeded for a reason. Fortunately, RA has its uses, particularly for 15-kHz displays. If the fight is over, so be it.

Good emulation will only continue to live through the FPGA dev craze and a niche of subsisting MAME and other standalone emus contributors and users.

Mister and FPGA will get one day run-ahead or anything the people demand and is technically possible, I'm sorry to say. As of now, the Double Dragon core (by the guy who cares the most about arcades accuracy, should I add), already has an option to remove the slowdown.

Most of games that I know on X68000 are simply arcade conversions. I didn't find so far too many games to justify system emulation not to mention buying it

Your research likely wasn't enough? In release order:

Code: [Select]

THUNDER FORCE II
GENOCIDE
ZAVAS
MID-GARTS GOLD
METAL SIGHT
KNIGHT ARMS
WANDERERS FROM YS
LAGOON
VALUSA NO FUKUSHUU
GENJUUKI
NAIOUS
SOL-FEACE
NEURAL GEAR
EMERALD DRAGON
SCORPIUS
PHALANX
ARCUS ODYSSEY
YS
OLTEUS II
AQUALES
LAST BATTALION
CODE ZERO
GENOCIDE 2
STAR TRADER
CHO-JIN
DIE BAHNWELT
ÉTOILE PRINCESSE
KU 2
AKUMAJOU DRACULA
COTTON
NEMESIS '90 KAI
KEEPER
MAD STALKER FULL METAL FORCE
This is only counting good official releases and leaving apart untranslated stuff and arcade ports (some of which got improved BGM and are worth checking out, but whatever). Many quality and unique unofficial titles to pick as well.

As for PC-8801 - I was never interested it's library just like many other japanese only computers. So many computers and games :/

Your lose, then, I guess.

It seems tool is not designed to run GBA games using GameCube. GBA player is almost perfect but forcing stretched picture in interlace mode does not look to good.

The tool does indeed allow 15-kHz progressive for GBA games with the GB Player:

https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=esDHMw17Es0

Check also Game Boy Interface.

On the other hand since it's official Nintendo addon we safely assume it's perfect

Wrong assumption. There's prominent stutter due to the different refresh rates between the GCN and the GBA. Hence my recommendation to generally use Mister.

[schmerzkaufen]

I'm sorry to say. As of now, the Double Dragon core (by the guy who cares the most about arcades accuracy, should I add), already has an option to remove the slowdown.

The f...what ? 

If there was one project with people bitching it is above everything else - THE - accurate emulation ever, it was that one.

Imagining run-ahead in there next, the ultimate heresy, is too much. 

EDIT: I am myself pretty tolerant in regards to emulator optional features, in a healthy world it's people's problem if they use these or not, as long as they don't anymore when time comes to play for real or compete with others, or to report issues to the devs. With such guidelines it's fine.
No need to tell me that's not what happens.
But on FPGA ? come on. The thought is so silly.

[Recapnation]

If there was one project with people bitching it is above everything else - THE - accurate emulation ever, it was that one.

This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.

[haynor666]

THUNDER FORCE II - I have Megadrive version
GENOCIDE - I played PC Engine CD version and I don't like this game too much
GENOCIDE 2 - the same situation but I played SNES version, maybe I didn't play to long, is it good ?
ZAVAS - not interested (these days I don't play jRPG too much, especially when are in japanese laguage only)
MID-GARTS GOLD - interesting, I'll check it
METAL SIGHT - another Galaxy Force/ Space Harrier clone
KNIGHT ARMS - I've seen this long time ago but I don't remember how good it was
WANDERERS FROM YS - so many version I've seen, any better than SNES/Megadrive? In english ?
LAGOON - almost the same as SNES version
VALUSA NO FUKUSHUU - ups, somehow I miss this one, interesting
GENJUUKI (Undead line) - I have mixed feeling about X68000 port, for years I played Megadrive version, is it better ?
NAIOUS - I don't remember this one
SOL-FEACE - I have Megadrive version but X68000 version was first and better visually but You know I'm lazy, I prefer to get cartridge from my shelf
NEURAL GEAR - I didn't like it
EMERALD DRAGON - japan only RPG so I wasn't interested, PC Engine version exists
SCORPIUS - it's on my list to play
PHALANX - I have original X68000 version and indeed X68000 version is better
ARCUS ODYSSEY - I never played X68000 version but it's (at least visually) almost identical to Megadrive version
YS - remake and in hires mode :/
OLTEUS II - on my list
AQUALES - on my list
LAST BATTALION - the same problem as with Daioh/Shienryu games - an updated (!?!?!) port of Override from PC Engine
CODE ZERO - I think I've seen this one
STAR TRADER - again, I miss this one :/
CHO-JIN - I'm not sure if I play this one
DIE BAHNWELT - I din't see this one, top down shooter, might be interesting but it's hires mode
ÉTOILE PRINCESSE - on my list
KU 2 - looks like I miss this one
AKUMAJOU DRACULA - since I have Castlevania Chronicles on PS1 I didn't bother to test it. Original version is on CD
COTTON - updated slighly with comparison to arcade version
NEMESIS '90 KAI - indeed great
KEEPER - I played only SNES version
MAD STALKER FULL METAL FORCE - I know this game, recently released on Megadrive but I've played on PC Engine port

This is only counting good official releases and leaving apart untranslated stuff and arcade ports (some of which got improved BGM and are worth checking out, but whatever). Many quality and unique unofficial titles to pick as well.

As for PC-8801 - I was never interested it's library just like many other japanese only computers. So many computers and games :/

Your lose, then, I guess.

Proabably You have right, someday I'll probably get to this system games.

It seems tool is not designed to run GBA games using GameCube. GBA player is almost perfect but forcing stretched picture in interlace mode does not look to good.

The tool does indeed allow 15-kHz progressive for GBA games with the GB Player:

https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=esDHMw17Es0

Check also Game Boy Interface.

On the other hand since it's official Nintendo addon we safely assume it's perfect

Wrong assumption. There's prominent stutter due to the different refresh rates between the GCN and the GBA. Hence my recommendation to generally use Mister.

I don't remember any stuttering. Maybe the speed up/slow down games to match GameCube refresh rate. Worth to check it. Anyway to run this tool I had to modify GC with Xeno.

[Calamity]

This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.

So true. To be fair, old MAME development wasn't Patreon-propelled, which probably doesn't mean anything to accuracy but at least it does to the epic.

That's btw the epic that's lost when somebody wraps you into a "core". And then calls the games "content", as if they were some Netflix's excretion.

[schmerzkaufen]

This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.

I feel obligated to nuance this, GroovyMAME is pretty much the embodiment of many things the people asked for, and they were legit right to.

If you go as - best example being - in MAME's shoes and look down on the user base for long, saying all them end users say is dumb crap, antagonize them, then you lose many to opportunists like RA, who will somehow give them what they want or rather erzatz features crossing lines that shouldn't have been.

Too easy to blame people who were powerless anyway, the demographics of end users are not developers, they don't take the decisions. TBH I've seen too many devs saying BS that shows they don't know anything from the world of gaming, and when called out on it the only ever reaction is to be hypocritical, and over and over deflect and blame everything wrong on the user base, even to the point as looking down on gamers as a whole. How fckn stupidly out of this world is that coming from arcade emu devs and so-called preservationists ? so gamers culture is fake ? only devs know ? how conceited.

That has been an unsightly show for a very long time, and I'm not sure it is random people I'd blame most for the negative consequences. Developers are often the greatest drama queens in the scene, the moment any comment isn't unconditional praise and a hint of criticism appears, they explode. But no one ever from the end user's crowd ever put a knife under their throats, nor ever had the power to do so anyway.

I'm all on the dev's side for the respect of the very essential principles, even though we could say that some are sacred, I'm not blindly supporting extremes like it's a religion VS heretics situation, because it's really not what happens despite the manipulative narratives.

People ask devs for stuff, some sound, some stupid. It's normal. Devs then control the output anyway, not end users. It's normal.
Devs who did tons of drama out of this and denied any legitimacy to even a fraction of the user base's own narratives, ever-demonizing them regardless of the topic, are just plain self-centered arses standing on no higher moral ground than the bad users.
In the case of MAME, they worked at ruining their reputation as hard as the bad users teaming with RA did.

Now, I don't follow what happens in the case of the FPGA scene, but as far as I would believe what you say is indeed what's happening, I won't judge on the precise matter.
As I said before though even if people ask things, it's the dev's power to decide what makes it or not into his work.
It is possible to offer features that don't do harm to development and preservation nor geopardize gameplay fairness when required, if it wasn't possible then Groovy, or Wolf, wouldn't exist.

I agree though that in the case of the FPGA projects it indeed sounds very incongruous. 

[donluca]

This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.

So true. To be fair, old MAME development wasn't Patreon-propelled, which probably doesn't mean anything to accuracy but at least it does to the epic.

That's btw the epic that's lost when somebody wraps you into a "core". And then calls the games "content", as if they were some Netflix's excretion.

I partially disagree.
Those kind of people will still stick to ARM SBCs such as RasPi + Retroarch and similar solutions.

When you're doing a MiSTer core you know that your work will be put under a microscope and people will be dissecting it and comparing it to real hardware so they have to be careful, they can't just slap a stack of hacks which barely work and call it a day because they're gonna get called out and people will bandwagon and your work will be, if not discarded, then probably not as widely used.

The bar over the years has been raised by several orders of magnitude.

We went from "OMG it works! It has no sound or music, it runs at 5 fps but I'm playing NES on my PC!" to "I really wish this emu would be more efficient so I could run it full speed on my PC" to finally "I want an emulator which delivers a result I personally can't distinguish from my real console* ". And since some years, buzzwords such as "cycle accurate" and similar have started to gain traction so there are a subset of people that really care and people using FPGAs (ie: they have to pay for, IMHO, pretty expensive hardware and invest a considerable amount of time setting everything up) which are going to scrutinize your work very closely and won't set for anything less than perfection**.

*: this varies from person to person of course. But in general, it means "me, amateur gamer, can't tell a difference"

**: This means people will put FPGA and real console side by side and look if timing is correct and if there are graphical/sound glitches.

[dmckean]

Old MAME was in every way a better project than the 20 years of hostility that followed. I'm looking for a great end user experience first and foremost. Preservation is just a bonus and should never be the focus. It's all about playing video games and having fun.

[Recapnation]

I feel obligated to nuance this, GroovyMAME is pretty much the embodiment of many things the people asked for, and they were legit right to.

Which people? A dozen of enthusiasts who kept their CRTs? That's never a wide userbase. Nor it actually is the several hundreds it got today who aren't asking for much as the main job was done when they came. You're just an exception.

If you go as - best example being - in MAME's shoes and look down on the user base for long

I've seen so many silly petitions coupled with uncivil tones that I kind of find easy to sympathize with MAME devs. We indeed weren't so lucky that these talented devs actually liked video games much (and the ones who did a bit quickly moved away?), but... we indeed were so lucky that these talented people without much interest in the games themselves dedicated so much effort and time to the cause. I actually believe that both conditions (loving the games and loving game disintegration) have to be mutually exclusive.

**: This means people will put FPGA and real console side by side and look if timing is correct and if there are graphical/sound glitches.

And they're found out (by the few that do this) and not much is done so many times? I don't know, check the Neo Geo core status, or how the Cave games are being added. Check how they got the most capable man in regards to arcade games accuracy dedicating his efforts to the Neo Geo Pocket (a handheld which owes basically all its merits to its particular D-pad, so has little point on Mister). We're clearly in a phase now of getting there in as much as possible, not as well as possible, and that's concurrent with the project's popularity. Yeah, I guess there's a higher level of exigency today and devs listen more (thanks to patronization, let's not fool ourselves), but it's far from optimal.

THUNDER FORCE II - I have Megadrive version

It's a downgrade. It's a bit better balanced (easier, shorter), but it has less stages and simplfied visuals and sound.

GENOCIDE - I played PC Engine CD version and I don't like this game too much

You won't be missing much, then. It's likely the worst entry in the list.

GENOCIDE 2 - the same situation but I played SNES version, maybe I didn't play to long, is it good ?

It's definitely much better (than both, the SFC version and the predecessor), but not a must.

ZAVAS - not interested (these days I don't play jRPG too much, especially when are in japanese laguage only)

EMERALD DRAGON - japan only RPG so I wasn't interested, PC Engine version exists

Glodia's games never are your usual JRPG and combats are really strategic there. The PCE version of ED (like the SFC one) is totally different. But yep, Japanese only for now, I'm afraid.

KNIGHT ARMS - I've seen this long time ago but I don't remember how good it was

It's ultimately an average/decent game but its historical context is something else. It's Thunder Force's creator first action game right after leaving Techno Soft and forming up his own company, so he tried to awe everybody with a unique approach which seemlessly concatenate Space Harrier-like phases (with full faux 360º rotation) with side-scrolling ones. It also has compatibility with analog controllers.

WANDERERS FROM YS - so many version I've seen, any better than SNES/Megadrive? In english ?

Never played those, but it gotta be as at least the MD version is based on the X68 version and the SFC one had a subpar developer. It's a remake (of the 88SR original) by Falcom themselves, and their only X68 game at that. Only in Japanese and it's protected, though. If you want an English-language console port, the PCE is the one to pick as the music there has no equal.

LAGOON - almost the same as SNES version

As much as SFC Street Fighter II is to the arcade game.

GENJUUKI (Undead line) - I have mixed feeling about X68000 port, for years I played Megadrive version, is it better ?

Sure thing. They're very different -- you'll find Genjuuki to be a glorified remake with lots of new stuff of the splendid MSX2 original while the MD version is a very compromised take in every regard 'cept for the bosses.

ARCUS ODYSSEY - I never played X68000 version but it's (at least visually) almost identical to Megadrive version

It's one of the closest X68-MD ports by Wolf Team, but like the others (Granada, Axis, which I forgot to add, and Sol-Feace) it has more content and better visuals/music as well. Granada, I actually prefer the MD port, though.

DIE BAHNWELT - I din't see this one, top down shooter, might be interesting but it's hires mode

It's Alien Syndrome meets Ys, kind of. A quite special one. Hi-res, but what's the matter.

YS - remake and in hires mode :/

A good remake indeed, despite all the camp it throws at you. Easier than the original, but it got awesome levels of care by the authors -- unique NPC throughout all the quest, improved save system so that no disk change nor keyboard is necessary, much better collision detection thanks to the higher resolution. Falcom's own remake exists and is better, but overlooking this is a mistake.

LAST BATTALION - the same problem as with Daioh/Shienryu games - an updated (!?!?!) port of Override from PC Engine

A deep revision of Override, indeed. It's a Sting game, and these people never made a turd.

AKUMAJOU DRACULA - since I have Castlevania Chronicles on PS1 I didn't bother to test it. Original version is on CD

The port in Chronicles has some issues which make of it the poorman edition (and I'm saying this being it the one I own as well, even if it's still sealed). The only problem/disadvantage with the X68 original was the lack of a 15-kHz mode, but that's automatically solved with MAME.

SCORPIUS - it's on my list to play
PHALANX - I have original X68000 version and indeed X68000 version is better
OLTEUS II - on my list
AQUALES - on my list
ÉTOILE PRINCESSE - on my list

So that's not enough to "justify emulation" or what's your list for?

As for PC-8801 - I was never interested it's library just like many other japanese only computers. So many computers and games :/

Your lose, then, I guess.

Proabably You have right, someday I'll probably get to this system games.

Just remember not to mistake the PC-8801 with the PC-8801 Mk-II SR. It's much like the MSX and the MSX 2 case -- entirely different things despite the retrocompatibility (and the people's claims). The 88SR is where the good stuff resides.

I don't remember any stuttering. Maybe the speed up/slow down games to match GameCube refresh rate.

Apparently, only stutter. The Swiss hack halved it somehow, but still there, they say.

[donluca]

Check how they got the most capable man in regards to arcade games accuracy dedicating his efforts to the Neo Geo Pocket

I'll just throw this thought in: maybe that particular, very skilled developer, has an actual interest in that platform and he personally enjoys tackling it, otherwise he wouldn't have put it in his polls.

And yes, money helps. surprisedPikachuFace.jpg

We've been spoiled by almost three decades of free emulators where people have put in an insane amount of effort, completely out of sheer passion, interest and challenge. Were the results perfect? Of course not.
Did they have the documentation, raw processing power and tools we have today? Guess what, they didn't.
And that didn't stop them helping the community to understand those platforms better and lying down the foundation of the next generation of emulators.

All of the current emulation scene stands on the shoulders of giants.
We should never forget that.

And, for that matter, I don't see anything wrong with people actually using money as incentive to drive them forward.
Especially if we end up getting better and better results.

Preservation is just a bonus and should never be the focus. It's all about playing video games and having fun.

Get out.

[Recapnation]

I fail to get how anything I said opposes anything you're saying. That particular developer had at least as much interest in NGP as in many arcade boards (not really, but whatever), yet the people asked for the former. And if they did it with money, I have nothing to object -- my mention was just a reminder.

[donluca]

I genuinely think that everytime we post something on a forum there are probably several things lost in translation due to either language barrier or to the limitation of the medium of the discussion, possibly both.

Sometimes I swear that if we would all be standing around a table having a drink and talking about these topics it would be way more chill and we would understand each other way better.

[Substring]

Except for non native english speakers who'd have a hard time keeping it up with everyone else ... Even more after a few pints 

[Zebidee]

My Thai mostly improves after some Mai Tais 

I stop worrying about the right words and just let it flow.

The common languages of gaming and booze would smooth everything out .

[haynor666]

SCORPIUS - it's on my list to play
PHALANX - I have original X68000 version and indeed X68000 version is better
OLTEUS II - on my list
AQUALES - on my list
ÉTOILE PRINCESSE - on my list

So that's not enough to "justify emulation" or what's your list for?

That was just a list of games to test, others I already played. I think final list on my frontend would be about 15 titles. I take a closer look on X68000, that I'm sure


As for RetroArch - it's sad that so many emulators cannot be used with super resolutions or sometimes even with native resolutions. Seems Groovymame, Mednafen mod and RetroArch are the only emulators that fully uses super resolutions.

[schmerzkaufen]

I genuinely think that everytime we post something on a forum there are probably several things lost in translation due to either language barrier or to the limitation of the medium of the discussion, possibly both.

Sometimes I swear that if we would all be standing around a table having a drink and talking about these topics it would be way more chill and we would understand each other way better.

I don't think so, there are views expressed clearly in this thread that are different and opposing, partially or totally, some reasonable and some ever stubbornly extreme, as per usual no one will move from their position. It's the same topics that have been discussed repeatedly for about 2 decades, there are like 4 or 5 if not more parties having their own take at what would be the best to do, nothing's changed. I've lost faith because it's too late anyway, it took too long because of people's egoes. Today the generations for whom it mattered the most got old and moved on, the younger don't value the same things so they won't stand up for anything in that forgotten debate they don't even understand, it's only a handful of old coots like us yelling at clouds now.

[donluca]

I don't know man, people here saying that "preservation should be a second thought" and "it's all about playing the games"... there are many like that and probably they've never even looked into the source code of any driver in MAME.

Without documentation there would be no preservation and without preservation there would be no emulation.

And MAME is basically all documentation and that's the reason it has stayed alive so long.

Despite that, look at the struggle people had when MAME moved from DOS to Windows and then the various Windows versions with all the incompatibilities... if there was no documentation we would be stuck with the original DOS version and people would need a super old PC and that means low performance and low performance means that there would be no way to properly test newer games and improve accuracy.

Being open source doesn't guarantee that MAME will run forever on whatever OS will come down the line and that's a huge issue, but thanks to the documentation there will be possibilities to start new projects.

Look at MiSTer: sure, people are doing decaps and studying the chip with powerful logic analyzers, but if there wasn't the MAME documentation already there we would have no MiSTer (and many other emulators).

I wish people would just understand the basics of computer technology, how it works and how quickly obsolete software and operating systems become.

Retroarch might be dead in 10 years time, but MAME will still live on and, even if no one will be there anymore to maintain it, the documentation will still be there for people to pick up and continue their work.

[Zebidee]

Back when I studied computer science at uni (we used an abacus and some stones), 50% of your assignments grades was based on your documentation alone. They wanted to know what you were doing, how and why (and with whom, if a partnership).

It meant you could still get a good grade even if your program didn't work. It meant you could get a pass without even writing a single line of code.

As it should be.

[ronbin]

Hi
Is there any way to use retroarch's switchres in KMS mode?
I've downloaded substring's patch from here and compiled with no issues
https://github.com/substring/packages/blob/master/package/retroarch/KMS_modeswitching.patch

But there is no switchres option in KMS mode, only in X11.

[psakhis]

Easy way is go with GroovyArcade...

On others linux distributions, you'll need major patches to sdl, kernel, etc.

[ronbin]

Easy way is go with GroovyArcade...

On others linux distributions, you'll need major patches to sdl, kernel, etc.

I can't use groovyarcade because this is an old laptop with 32 bit cpu. So I'm using 32 bit debian.
I've compiled 15khz kernel, groovymame, sdl2 and emulationstation. Everything works perfect in kms. Now I want to add some consoles with retroarch, so I've compiled latest version with substring's patch but I don't know what to do next...

[psakhis]

Everything seems correct then, try to enter the GroovyArcade Discord and comment if they can help you