Terrible input lag in MAME, suggestions on how to improve?

[DaveC1964]

I am using MAME .117 DOS based with MaLa frontend on a low spec mini PC with Windows 10.  I am using an ipac-2 interface. The frame rate is fine as the games will run smoothly, no sound stuttering etc.  I am getting terrible input lag though I am guessing around 300ms even on simple games like Pac-Man.    Is there some setting somewhere that improves this?  Maybe there is a more efficient MAME somewhere?  Maybe there is a 64-bit vs 32 bit version that is the issue?  Not sure what the issue is so I would like to know if there is an optimum setup/configuration.

[bobbyb13]

Processor speed?
Display type?
Not familiar with mame versions that old myself.
That ipac should not be an issue.

Need more detail for someone here to be able to help.

Start here?

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=86265.0

[Zebidee]

I am using MAME .117 DOS based with MaLa frontend on a low spec mini PC with Windows 10.

Looking into my crystal ball to find solutions for you...

Aha! An fleeting image ... Letters are forming in the mists... I can see a word! It says...

UPGRADE

[abispac]

I am using MAME .117 DOS based with MaLa frontend on a low spec mini PC with Windows 10.

Looking into my crystal ball to find solutions for you...

Aha! An fleeting image ... Letters are forming in the mists... I can see a word! It says...

UPGRADE

  LOL that was funny, but using mame 117 should work just fine even on a pentium 4 pc. If he is using even older hardware, then yes, time to upgrade, although he is using windows 10, my guess he is using an i3, i5 first gen pc, wich should run that just fine. Even if he is using dual core or core dos duo, should be power enough to run mame 117 just fine.
My advice. with older hardware and older mame, scrap windows 10, use windows 7, propper drivers and directx, and you should be running smooth buttered  no input lag at all. Your problem might reside in windows 10.

[gildahl]

Even if the input lag is solved you'll probably still have audio lag (which can sometimes even feel like input lag even though it is not really).  Ever since I started using port audio (introduced in 0.182 I think), I now consider it the single best reason to upgrade.  The difference is dramatic.  I remember going up to Funspot in Laconia NH and always remarking to myself how Defender (in particular) felt so snappy compared to my home arcade running on a 3.6Ghz i7.  After discovering port audio, I found out why.  Sound had always been lagging my input!  So I would second the previous advice to upgrade, though I personally have no qualms with Windows 10 with which I have found no performance degradation compared with 7 on my hardware.

[DaveC1964]

Upgrade, Upgrade, upgrade.  That is all see, if it were that easy don't you think I would do that?  This is for a small bartop with very limited space and shoving in a big desktop PC is just not possible.   All of the rework, redesign, rewiring,  and basically starting over is not practical.   It would be MUCH easier to tune some settings somewhere, use a different MAME version whatever.  If the games are running smooth with no stutter or choppy sound then I would think there would be a way to bring down such a significant lag.  I am not expecting 1 ms, but 300 ms sounds like a configuration/ driver something issue.  To be a hardware issue with that much lag the game speed and frame rate would be crap as well but it isn't.  If no one has an idea of what the actual issue is other than the snobby "your hardware sucks, throw it out" then OK, I suppose I am on my own.

[Zebidee]

Hey mate, sorry you can't take a gentle joke.

You originally said you are running a DOS optimised version of MAME 0.117, yet you are running that on Windows 10. Seems obvious that there might be some issues. You could easily upgrade to a later version of MAME, designed for your hardware and OS setup, by just downloading it.

Alternatively, you could downgrade for FreeDOS, but that seems like a dumb idea.

There have been all kinds of advances over the last 15 years or so since v0.117, including things to reduce latency and frame delays. There are threads on here where that is all they talk about. Nobody there, or here, will take you seriously unless you are using latest, or near latest, versions of MAME. Or even better, Groovymame. Check it out.

[bobbyb13]

Upgrade, Upgrade, upgrade.  That is all see, if it were that easy don't you think I would do that?  This is for a small bartop with very limited space and shoving in a big desktop PC is just not possible.   All of the rework, redesign, rewiring,  and basically starting over is not practical.   It would be MUCH easier to tune some settings somewhere, use a different MAME version whatever.  If the games are running smooth with no stutter or choppy sound then I would think there would be a way to bring down such a significant lag.  I am not expecting 1 ms, but 300 ms sounds like a configuration/ driver something issue.  To be a hardware issue with that much lag the game speed and frame rate would be crap as well but it isn't.  If no one has an idea of what the actual issue is other than the snobby "your hardware sucks, throw it out" then OK, I suppose I am on my own.

Take a breather.
Have you done any research of your own yet?
Did you read what was in the link I posted or do any searching at all before asking your question here?

You will find plenty of help here if you put in the effort on your side and I found a mutlitude of possible fixes myself with 2 rounds of google-fu in less than 5 minutes.

[abispac]

Upgrade, Upgrade, upgrade.  That is all see, if it were that easy don't you think I would do that?  This is for a small bartop with very limited space and shoving in a big desktop PC is just not possible.   All of the rework, redesign, rewiring,  and basically starting over is not practical.   It would be MUCH easier to tune some settings somewhere, use a different MAME version whatever.  If the games are running smooth with no stutter or choppy sound then I would think there would be a way to bring down such a significant lag.  I am not expecting 1 ms, but 300 ms sounds like a configuration/ driver something issue.  To be a hardware issue with that much lag the game speed and frame rate would be crap as well but it isn't.  If no one has an idea of what the actual issue is other than the snobby "your hardware sucks, throw it out" then OK, I suppose I am on my own.

ive said it, get rid of windows 10 and use windows 7, that would solve alot of problems, no need to upgrade.
Windows 10 should only be used with modern hardware that requires directx11 and later. Get rid of it.

[DaveC1964]

Hey mate, sorry you can't take a gentle joke.

You originally said you are running a DOS optimised version of MAME 0.117, yet you are running that on Windows 10. Seems obvious that there might be some issues. You could easily upgrade to a later version of MAME, designed for your hardware and OS setup, by just downloading it.

Alternatively, you could downgrade for FreeDOS, but that seems like a dumb idea.

There have been all kinds of advances over the last 15 years or so since v0.117, including things to reduce latency and frame delays. There are threads on here where that is all they talk about. Nobody there, or here, will take you seriously unless you are using latest, or near latest, versions of MAME. Or even better, Groovymame. Check it out.

Well if the joke also had some useful information as well then I could take it better, whatever not a big deal.  It just seems everyone just says "upgrade PC" but that is the obvious solution if possible, everyone doesn't need to mention it.  I would do that before even posting here if it was practical.

Anyway doesn't newer versions of MAME demand better specs?  RetroArch users on low spec devices recommend MAME 2003 for example.  Older MAME versions had to run on weaker systems because that is what they had at the time.  I ran the current setup I mentioned above on a single core 1.6 GHz Celeron laptop years back with no issues.  I suppose it costs nothing but time to try other versions of MAME so I suppose I will try that. 
Also keep in mind I am running classic games like Galaga or Donkey Kong.  I am not trying to run Killer Instinct or Time Crisis 5 on it.

[Zebidee]

Well, I apologise for the misunderstanding.

I wasn't talking about upgrading your PC, but the version of MAME you are using.

My little joke contained the relevant information. I highlighted bolded your words "MAME .117 DOS" and added the word UPGRADE. Thought you'd be able to connect the dots........

You don't mention specs, but any PC capable of running Windows 10 should be able to run almost all playable games in MAME. Certainly all the classic era games.

I run MAME 0.219 on a P4 running Windows 7, it does everything I need.

[DaveC1964]

Well, I apologise for the misunderstanding.

I wasn't talking about upgrading your PC, but the version of MAME you are using.

My little joke contained the relevant information. I highlighted bolded your words "MAME .117 DOS" and added the word UPGRADE. Thought you'd be able to connect the dots........

You don't mention specs, but any PC capable of running Windows 10 should be able to run almost all playable games in MAME. Certainly all the classic era games.

I run MAME 0.219 on a P4 running Windows 7, it does everything I need.

 
I have this small bartop and it uses one of those mini PC system on a chip single board type devices at 2 GHz, 4 GB RAM.  Yes it is weak but as said before the games seem to run smoothly with no stutter etc. and it is still stronger than the old 1.6GHz Celeron laptop I used before. It just has the input lag.  I know sometimes there are settings for keyboard polling etc that can be changed.  I will try other versions maybe 64 bit to match the OS.  It is just a hassle because when you change the MAME version you have to dick around with ROMS to get them to work again, guh.

I saw that joke post on my phone in the morning, My eyes aren't the best anymore with small screens and I read too fast, sorry. 

[Zebidee]

It is just a hassle because when you change the MAME version you have to dick around with ROMS to get them to work again, guh.

Yeah - dealing with ROM managers like clrmamepro is always a PITA, there are so many confusing options.

Fortunately, disk space is cheap these days.

Many people would normally just download a new romset to match the MAME version. Unfortunately we are not allowed to discuss such matters on BYOAC. I'll get my hand smacked if I even give you a vague hint.

So, I looked into my crystal ball again for answers, and again letters slowly formed in the mists. They say:

GOOGLE

[BadMouth]

Having triple buffering enabled in MAME.ini adds lag.
V-sync to a lesser extent.

Similar options enabled in your video card will do the same.

LCD screens add lag.

[gildahl]

It is just a hassle because when you change the MAME version you have to dick around with ROMS to get them to work again, guh.

There are multiple ways of attacking this problem.  The issue I've always had with upgrading to a new full set is that there's a tendency for just as many games to get broken as added/improved  And often you don't know that something got broke until you try to pull up one of your old favorites to show a visitor, and it goes bust, argh!

Because of that, I run off a base version of MAME of a known state, and only add/update games that I know have been added or improved since that version.  This ensures nothing in my lists ever gets broken.  Since the number of games that I'm both interested in and have worthwhile updates has slowed to a trickle, this tends to be a very efficient method.  If a game is improved (like the recent sound fix in Looping), I just install that new version of MAME in parallel, drop in the one rom, and a background script takes care of always running games in the latest MAME version the rom is found in.  Nothing else is affected.

[Zebidee]

There are multiple ways of attacking this problem.  The issue I've always had with upgrading to a new full set is that there's a tendency for just as many games to get broken as added/improved  And often you don't know that something got broke until you try to pull up one of your old favorites to show a visitor, and it goes bust, argh!

For these reasons I keep multiple MAME versions & romsets, including some quite old ones. Also I don't update constantly, maybe every 2-3 years or so.

Simple, but you still find broken games from time-to-time, and there is no real rhythm to it.

gildahl, your scripting solution is interesting, how do you implement that? You run the script from your FE and the script compares and launches appropriate version of MAME?

[cmccaff1]

It's nice to see people still trying to get the most out of what they have! Not every 'upgrade' is an improvement.

It will help to know more about your PC's specs...assuming you can potentially install an older OS like 7 or even XP on that machine, you should be able to get even better performance (7 and XP also have better compatibility with earlier versions of MAME that 8 and later tend to choke on).

There are so many ways to approach this, but my immediate suggestion (since you mention input lag being an issue) is to consider going back to a version between 0.99 and 0.106.
These are both milestone versions for different reasons.

0.99 is the first version that runs Robotron at the correct speed (earlier versions ran it too fast), supports all of the 90s Golden Tee games, still supports hiscore.dat, and all of the 'golden age' games were by then emulated nearly flawlessly (unless you're a MAME developer and well schooled on the hardware, or a veteran player who understands the quirks of certain games, you will notice virtually no differences from the actual machines).
It is also notable for having less input lag than later versions, which is one reason why some STG players still keep it around; in fact, 0.99 was forked to create ShmupMAME because of this, though they re-forked later on.

Various changes were made after 0.99, with 0.106 ultimately being the final major version released to still have the old video code...the minimum hardware requirements shot way up with 0.107 thanks to a significant rewrite of the code, which is why many people have held onto (and still recommend) 0.106 for older PCs.
Since you specifically mentioned Pac-Man, then for what it's worth, three of the five highest MARP scores on the parent "puckman" ROM set (including a perfect 3,333,360-point game) were set using WolfMAME 0.106 (http://replay.marpirc.net/r/puckman).
In general, you can take your pick of any version between 0.99 and 0.106, and you should get good results.

If you're REALLY feeling like a rebel, you can go further back in time and take a more vintage version of MAME.
A lot of it comes down to your personal preferences, but I have come to find that 0.62 is an exceptionally good release.
This version is notable for a lot of improvements, including improved raster effects in CPS2 games and sound fixes in Neo-Geo games (including the KoF '99 "How to Play" screen and the Shock Troopers attract mode).
Basically, 0.62 is the first version with which you can play all of the CPS1, CPS2 and Neo-Geo titles supported back then without any noticeable graphical, game-play, or sound-related issues.
This version is also old enough to still have a lot of speed hacks that were taken out of later MAME versions, resulting in performance gains for many games...even on modest hardware, everything I've tried runs at full speed, without so much as a single dropped frame (including the Mortal Kombats & other 90s Midway games).
No important games seem to be broken in this release, either.

ROM sets for old MAME versions can be found if you know where to look, and ClrMAMEPro also comes in handy for converting modern ROMs to work in the older versions again (it can be a PITA, though).
0.78 is a version for which ROM sets can be easily found, so this one is also worth taking a look at (some of the speed hacks were starting to be removed by then, though).

I hope some of this information may be useful to someone!
It's nice to post here for the first time...I've read threads here for years, but haven't posted anything until now.
I figured it was better to share my thoughts here rather than bump an ancient thread from over half a decade ago...I've spent quite a bit of time trying different MAME versions out, and with a lot of trial and error I can say for sure that 0.106 and earlier are your best bets if you value fast, reliable performance above everything else.
Best wishes to everyone!

T.L.D.R. - a version between 0.99 and 0.106 will allow you to run the most games with the least amount of input lag, while still having good performance on modest hardware thanks to the old video code; even older versions of MAME should give you more speed, but you will be missing out on emulation improvements made since then.

[gildahl]

gildahl, your scripting solution is interesting, how do you implement that? You run the script from your FE and the script compares and launches appropriate version of MAME?

These days I do it using a custom FE that I wrote for my machine that has this capability as one of its built-in features (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,165138.0.html)

But the function derives from an older simple script that does exactly what you describe.  You run the script from your FE and the script searches for and launches the rom in the appropriate version of MAME.  You can find that original script here: (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,152219.msg1593780.html#msg1593780).  Read the post two up from the linked post for a more detailed description.

[DaveC1964]

It is just a hassle because when you change the MAME version you have to dick around with ROMS to get them to work again, guh.

Yeah - dealing with ROM managers like clrmamepro is always a PITA, there are so many confusing options.

Fortunately, disk space is cheap these days.

Many people would normally just download a new romset to match the MAME version. Unfortunately we are not allowed to discuss such matters on BYOAC. I'll get my hand smacked if I even give you a vague hint.

So, I looked into my crystal ball again for answers, and again letters slowly formed in the mists. They say:

GOOGLE

Even that is a lot of work.  Get the new ROMset and then spend hours weeding out all of the mahjong, gambling, 15 different clones/hacks/bootlegs of the same game etc.

[PL1]

Even that is a lot of work.  Get the new ROMset and then spend hours weeding out all of the mahjong, gambling, 15 different clones/hacks/bootlegs of the same game etc.

Instead of subtraction, try addition.

Put the full ROMset in \mame\roms\archive\ and copy the desired games, BIOSes, and drivers up to \mame\roms\.
- It's easy to add more games later.
- If you decide you're not interested in a game anymore, delete the copy in \mame\roms\.


Scott

[Zebidee]

gildahl, your scripting solution is interesting, how do you implement that? You run the script from your FE and the script compares and launches appropriate version of MAME?

These days I do it using a custom FE that I wrote for my machine that has this capability as one of its built-in features (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,165138.0.html)

But the function derives from an older simple script that does exactly what you describe.  You run the script from your FE and the script searches for and launches the rom in the appropriate version of MAME.  You can find that original script here: (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,152219.msg1593780.html#msg1593780).  Read the post two up from the linked post for a more detailed description.

Fascinating stuff Gil. Thanks for the links, I will need to have a closer look.

Regret missing your thread in May 2021. Was a busy time.

ArcadeEIP seems like a great FE option, to move away from menu-driven systems.

Will look into it as soon as I can get my head out of spray painting mode   and a better internet connection so I can watch your vids properly (home line is down  )   

[Rataplan626]

A lot of hints / tips were already given here, but you seem to think into problems and not solutions. That won't get you further.

Anyway, about your initial issue, the latency. Just to be sure - you run from DOS. How is the response of typing using your iPAC buttons? Is that direct? Or do you actually have a screen (old tft maybe?) with a terrible lag somehow because it's not fed it's native resolution? Now .117 IS in fact a terribly old version. But still, what's the ini file? Did it ever work well? Also, you say you are running DOS, but on a SOC board? Is that like an ATOM board or something? Running DOS on 'modern' systems is bound to run you into trouble as it's not designed for that. So basically, if you finally post your specs, ini's and just the current setup, people might in fact be able to shine a light.

Also, in my full cab I have a regular ITX (maybe even mini itx) board, which doesn't take up too much space, but there's plenty of space in there. However, my 'testbench' is an Intel NUC. Older NUCs like gen5 or 6 are dirt cheap, and probably way, way faster than your current rig. If you take out the motherboard it's about 12x12cm and maybe 2 or 3cm in heigth including the cooler. They're great for relatively low-requirement stuff like MAME unless you want to play modern 3d games, which your current rig certainly wouldn't to either. Or you could switch to a Pi4 or something, even smaller and just up to the task.