Rotary joystick/spinner with push/pull option

[haynor666]

I'm rebuilding my own CAB PC and I was thinking about adding finally rotary joystick for old SNK games and spinner with push/pull option (for Forgotten Worlds, Disc of Tron). What options are now on market? Finding original on market is now really hard not too mention prices. The same goes to spinner with push/pull option.

[PL1]

I'm rebuilding my own CAB PC and I was thinking about adding finally rotary joystick for old SNK games and spinner with push/pull option (for Forgotten Worlds, Disc of Tron). What options are now on market?

Push/pull spinner:
AFAIK there are two commercial options either currently or recently in production.

GGG TurboTwist High-Low™ Push-Pull Arcade Spinner Control -- Higher quality optical encoder.

GRS Push & Pull Arcade Spinner -- Lower quality Hall-effect encoder.

Rotary joystick:
AFAIK there are no commercial options currently in production.
- Several years ago, Happ stopped making the mechanical rotary stick (P/N 50-5618-00) that was based on the Happ Super.

I'm in the very early stages of designing a shaft replacement + 3d printable rotary mod for the IL Eurojoystick/Happ Competition or the IL Compact/Happ Super or the Seimitsu LS-32(microswitch and PCB versions)/Zippyy sticks.
- All of these sticks have a 10mm shaft, like the handle replacement mod I did here.
- You'll need a 12 position rotary switch like this one.  That's the closest I could find other than getting the original switch used on the Happ rotary stick and dealing with Happ's minimum orders and overpriced shipping.   
- You'll also need a 10mm shaft, a 10mm to 6.35mm (1/4") shaft coupler, a 10mm shaft collar, and a M5-0.80 x 10mm setscrew for the shaft collar that transmits torque from the 3d printed handle to the shaft.

If clearance under the control panel is a concern, the LS-32 or Zippyy sticks are the shortest I've found.   


Scott

[haynor666]

I didn't know about ThunderStick GRS. It seems to be good option especially with it's proce. Sadly not available right now :/

As for rotary joystick we have Ultimarc rotary upgrade but again not available - https://www.ultimarc.com/arcade-controls/joystick-accessories/ikari-12-way-rotary-upgrade-for-servostik-j-stik/

I'm suprise that we have some little options considering how many games in mame are using rotary joystick and how popular those games are Ikari Warriors, Midnight Resistance for example.

Thanks for info PL1

[PL1]

As for rotary joystick we have Ultimarc rotary upgrade

  How did I forget that option?      

There are 3d printed handles to go with that upgrade -- LS-30 style or Data East round style.

I'm suprise that we have some little options considering how many games in mame are using rotary joystick and how popular those games are Ikari Warriors, Midnight Resistance for example.

Last time I checked there are only about 25 mechanical rotary joystick games in MAME.
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Joysticks#Mechanical_Rotary_Joystick_Games_.28LS-30.2C_Happ_Mechanical_Rotary_Sticks.29

To get around not having a rotary joystick, people can map the buttons like this:
          1  2  3
          4  5  6
1 - Turn left
2 - Gun
3 - Turn right
4 - Grenade

With relatively few games that use them and an easy workaround by remapping buttons,  it's no surprise that there aren't many rotary joystick options available.


Scott

[haynor666]

That's how I play as for today

My goal was to improve this situation a bit and to be closer to original design for those games. I guess I have to stick with trackball (some kind of replacement for spinner in Disc of Tron) and two joysticks.

[PL1]

some kind of replacement for spinner in Disc of Tron

A two-microswitch rocker pedal works great for the high/low function in Discs of Tron.
- Unfortunately, the price on this model has more than doubled in the last 10 years.   




Scott

[NuclearWarren]

I've installed the GGG Push Pull and can highly recommend it. I run Advmame, a spinner works for rotary games, but the rotation just doesn't feel stepped.

My build thread is posted here:

https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/23649/mad-planets-cabinet-build-finished?_=1651506402760

There is at least one game I havent gotten to work yet, whats it called its a western with a train...

ws

[PL1]

There is at least one game I havent gotten to work yet, whats it called its a western with a train...

Are you thinking about Wild Western?



That's one of the six games that used the "Taito Aim-n-Fire" style controller:
- Front Line
- The Tin Star
- Wild Western
- Sheriff (Nintendo)
- Bandido (Exidy -- licensed re-release of Sheriff)
- Western Gun Part II (Taito -- licensed re-release of Sheriff)

 

The 8-way joystick on the left is used to control movement.

The button on the right is used to jump on/off the train.

The "Aim-n-Fire" acts like a top-fire 8-way joystick where a cardinal direction (U/D/L/R) or diagonal is always pressed.   It is used to . . . aim and fire.   
- On a twin-stick cab (think Robotron), you can map the right stick to both the aim inputs and the fire input.

a spinner works for rotary games, but the rotation just doesn't feel stepped.

That's a common complaint when you use a spinner for "clicky" games that used a mechanical rotary joystick or Aim-n-Fire.

The detents on the original controls made it much easier to maintain the desired angle -- no click, no turn.   


Scott

[NuclearWarren]

- On a twin-stick cab (think Robotron), you can map the right stick to both the aim inputs and the fire input.

Thanks for the tip on that! works well!

nuke

[haynor666]

Thanks for info guys.

I had Ultimarc rotary upgrade mod but I didn't like it at all - no block on rotation (just like NuclearWarren and PL1 mentioned no clicky movement) which leads to random switch. It was only good for Caliber 50.

The original SNK joystick (with micro switches) as I remember wasn't good in my opinion but at least works as it should.


For a spinner ThunderStick GRS seems to be good option but it's not available anywhere :/

[PL1]

I had Ultimarc rotary upgrade mod but I didn't like it at all - no block on rotation (just like NuclearWarren and PL1 mentioned no clicky movement) which leads to random switch. It was only good for Caliber 50.

That's the optical rotary mod for the U360.
https://www.ultimarc.com/arcade-controls/joystick-accessories/ultrastik-360-rotary-joystick-upgrade/
AFAIK only four five games used an optical rotary stick -- Caliber .50, Exterminator, Fighting Soccer, Touchdown Fever, and Touchdown Fever II.

Just noticed that Ultimarc has the clicky mechanical rotary mod for the J-Stik/ServoStik in stock again.   
https://www.ultimarc.com/arcade-controls/joystick-accessories/ikari-12-way-rotary-upgrade-for-servostik-j-stik/


Scott
EDIT: Forgot to include Fighting Soccer.

[haynor666]

Optical rotary mod was available before 12 position mod and it was the only mod which works with U360. At that time I was thinking about any kind of rotary option. As it turns out was not too good for 12 position games. Later Ultimarc released next mod but of course not compatible with U360. Due to problems with optical mod and fact it will not be compatible with U360 I didn't bother to test it.

But it's true - only four games actually need optical rotary and only Caliber 50 I play. But on other hand it could be used also as ratary option for Forgotten Worlds or Disc of Tron. Not too handy but works.

[PL1]

It would be really difficult to make a mechanical rotary mod for the U360.
- You can't hang the rotary switch under the shaft because of the magnet and sensor.
- There's very little room above the magnet for a hollow body rotary switch.



The optical mod makes more room between the sensor/magnet and the joystick body.
- Might be enough space for a hollow body rotary switch if somebody makes one that's thin enough and the inner diameter works with the joystick shaft.



If nothing else, maybe it would be possible to make a hybrid rotary U360 by adding mechanical detents to Ultimarc's optical mod.   


Scott

[negative1]

GRS glens retro show, is working on a spinner joystick,
but its still in testing.

here's the first look of the 4/8/12 way





and further testing with other games, like xybots, etc



later
-1

[PL1]

GRS glens retro show, is working on a spinner joystick,

From the videos, it looks like this is a "non-clicky" version similar to the Happ optical rotary sticks. 


Scott

[KenToad]

GRS glens retro show, is working on a spinner joystick,

From the videos, it looks like this is a "non-clicky" version similar to the Happ optical rotary sticks. 


Scott

Yeah, it looks analog. Glen posted on FB trying to drum up support to get Mame "fixed" so it would work properly with this device. He even claimed that this was a longstanding issue with Mame, which I assume to the old issue that's long-since fixed. It doesn't give me a lot of hope for this product working with Ikari or any of the other digital rotary games he claims to be testing.

Still, it might be an interesting way to play Forgotten Worlds and Eco Fighters and of course it should work well for Cal 50 and the other analog rotary stick games you mentioned earlier in the thread.

[PL1]

Glen posted on FB trying to drum up support to get Mame "fixed" so it would work properly with this device. He even claimed that this was a longstanding issue with Mame, which I assume to the old issue that's long-since fixed. It doesn't give me a lot of hope for this product working with Ikari or any of the other digital rotary games he claims to be testing.

Glen might have forgotten to adjust some settings in MAME.
- Not sure what the proper settings are for an optical rotary joystick.   

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Joysticks#MAME_Settings_for_Mechanical_Rotary_Joysticks

MAME Settings for Mechanical Rotary Joysticks

For mechanical rotary games:

"Input (this Game)" menu

    Positional Analog to none

"Analog Controls" menu

    Positional Digital Speed = 0
    Positional Sensitivity = 100

For optical rotary games:

"Input (this Game)" menu

    Dial Analog to none

"Analog Controls" menu

    Dial Digital Speed = double the default value
    Dial Sensitivity = default value

Scott

[KenToad]

Personally, I think he's working off bad information, which has proliferated with the boom in Raspberry Pi users running preconfigured, outdated versions of emulators. Scott, I feel like you're one of the few people that can reliably direct people to correct, updated information about something like the Mame project and the way certain things like analog rotary controls were mishandled by Mame devs for years. And it is ridiculous that we have to jump through settings hoops to get basic digital controls working in super-popular games like Ikari Warriors. I mean, come on, it should be normal button mapping at this point. Personally, I think the games are easier and more fun to play with a simple button configuration like this:

*Edit* I see Scott already posted this earlier. Sorry.

rotate counter-clockwise | fire | rotate clockwise
grenade | nothing | nothing

use your middle finger to fire and pointer and ring finger to rotate, thumb for grenades.

I remember being impressed by SNK's Ikari rotary joysticks in the 80's. They were a huge improvement over games like Frontline with it's pushbutton rotary spinner controls, but rotary joysticks are a nostalgia fix at this point and not the best way to play. Even using shoulder buttons on a controller to rotate would be better than forcing you to move and rotate with the same joystick, at least for me.

[haynor666]

GRS glens retro show, is working on a spinner joystick,
but its still in testing.

Thanks for for info. I'm looking for Ikari style joystick for years. I hope it can be used the same way as typical SNK rotary joystick with mechanical restriction or something like that. U360 failed to do this correctly.

From I can see this does not work so far well in Ikari Warriors (no restriction and too sensitive) but I hope this will solved. After all far more games in MAME are using mechanical rotation (Ikari Warriors, Midnight Resistance) than optical one (Caliber Fifty). Please note that I'm not counting games like Forgotten Worlds or Eco Fighter because these games are designed for pull spinner.

[haynor666]

Another 3 months and sadly joystick seems to be still not available :/

[negative1]

update from a month ago.

more games work better now:



later
|| | || | |
ne gative 1

[haynor666]

Ups, somehow I miss this. I subscride his channel

Thanks for info

Joystick looks really promissing.

[PL1]

more games work better now:

Yeah, now that Glen figured out the MAME settings I mentioned earlier in this thread. (8:20 in the new video)     

The blue "hat switch" mode he uses for Front Line should also work with the five other "Taito Aim-n-Fire" controller games listed in reply #7 of this thread.

TL;DR summary of the video -- With the right settings in MAME, the appropriate mode selected, and the correct handle installed, this stick works like these specialized controllers:
- Mechanical rotary joystick
- Optical rotary joystick
- Taito Aim-n-Fire
- Atari Twist-to-Turn joystick (Xybots)
- Push/Pull spinner


Scott

[haynor666]

I noticed that controller works even with Taito Aim'n'fire games which is a bit strange considering how originally those sticks works  on real hardware. It's nice addition, it could even works as spinner in any game like Disc of Tron but seems to be working a bit stiff/jerky in Arkanoid.

[Xiaou2]

Arkanoid uses a much higher optical resolution.  In order to try to get it playable on a low-resolution encoder...
hes bumping up mames values (steps per click).  This of course, equates to very Jerky movement.

While one Could make a spinner that would work on top of a stick... it would have to have much more fluidity,  by using a weighted top,
and some metal bearing inserts.

 Otherwise, its going to feel and react more like a pot based  "Paddle"  controller.   While this might be fine for the old 70s era,
black and white "Breakout" games...  its not going to work for something like  Supersprint / Championship Sprint, where you need to
have the spinner rotate like +5 full rotations on a single turn.

[haynor666]

I do not expect to replace spinner actually. I prefer games to play as the intend to play so Arcanoid with spinner, Forgotten Worlds with spinner with push pull option and rotary games with with standard SNK like rotary joystick.

[mdub77]

new Ikari-themed rotary stick/control panel option from thunderstick/SNK collaboration up for preorder at https://thunderstickstudio.com

[haynor666]

US only 

[BadMouth]

Yeah, now that Glen figured out the MAME settings I mentioned earlier in this thread. (8:20 in the new video)     

I'm a bit late, but based on that video he still doesn't understand how analog inputs are handled in MAME.
The sensitivity setting has no effect if using Axis INC and Axis DEC.
MAME sees those as digital input controlling a virtual analog device.

In other words, any movement of the mouse is seen as a keyboard/button press and then MAME converts it into a virtual analog signal that is ramped up an down based on the speed and auto-centering settings.
The sensitivity setting only effects the actual analog axis when it is mapped.

When in doubt, read the manual. 
https://docs.mamedev.org/_files/MAME.pdf

I guess it doesn't matter as long as all the games are working with his suggested settings, but it always blows my mind how people can develop and release products like this without getting a full understanding of the controls first.  I bet 99% of the games would work without switching modes if the user understood MAME's analog settings.

[PL1]

The sensitivity setting has no effect if using Axis INC and Axis DEC.

Sorry, but yes it does for rotary joystick games.

You can confirm it with these settings in the rotary joystick version of Ikari 3 - The Rescue (ikari3u):
"Input (this Game)" menu
- Positional Analog = none
- Positional Analog Dec = Mouse +
- Positional Analog Inc = Mouse -
"Analog Controls" menu
- Positional Digital Speed = 0
- Positional Sensitivity = 100 (may need to be lower with a high-res mouse/spinner)

Start a game and slowly move your mouse/spinner to see how fast you turn.

Change Positional Sensitivity to half of the previous value and move your mouse/spinner at the same speed as before -- you will turn much slower.


Scott
EDIT: You can see it even better in a 2-player game if you set P1 and P2 controls to the same settings except for Positional Sensitivity.

[BadMouth]

Interesting.  Thanks for correcting me.

[PL1]

Thank you for posting the link to the MAME manual.   

Between confirming how Glen's rotary joystick settings worked and reading the manual, it gave me an idea on how to configure the game Prop Cycle.

I finished designing and building a 3d printed controller for it several years ago, but couldn't figure out how to make the auto-centering for the pedals work until today.   
- The funny thing about the Prop Cycle configuration process is that in newer versions of MAME (tested in mainline v0.254), apparently you can't map a mouse/spinner to the Inc and Dec inputs of that game's pedals while an analog joystick is plugged in.   
- It doesn't seem to happen while happen while mapping mechanical rotary joystick games, but I figured I'd mention it in case it affects the optical rotary joystick or other types of games that Glen's stick works with.
- The good news is you only have to do this process once during the initial setup for Prop Cycle -- map the pedals *without* the analog joystick plugged in, exit the game, plug in the analog joystick, and re-start the game.
- I still need to dial in the exact settings, but you put me on the path for success, BadMouth.   


Scott

[BadMouth]

 

I always wanted to see how playable I could get the driving games with standard joysticks using the digital options.
Not that it would take much time, but it's always been way down on the to-do list because it's not all that important.
IIRC the only game on my cab I've used them for is Space Harrier which doesn't play too bad with a digital joystick to begin with.

It's especially important for people wanting to play games like Pole Position with a spinner for steering and a button for gas.
The digital speed for the pedal (how quickly the virtual analog input goes from 0-full limit) needs to be lowered until the tires do not squeal when first taking off.
One of the game mechanics is that squealing the tires costs time and prevents you from progressing in the game.
Likewise the digital centering needs to be high enough that the car slows down fast enough to make the turns, but not any higher.