Now I may have done it- Sinistar cabaret

[bobbyb13]

If I wind up building a separate shed for surfboards and archery gear and the drum kit DOES actually get moved then you are correct Mike.

I could probably put 4 more in the middle- two pairs back to back- and it would still all be playable.

It would also solve the problem of a few being too tall to sit nicely along the knee walls.

[Mike A]

If I wind up building a separate shed for surfboards and archery gear and the drum kit DOES actually get moved then you are correct Mike.

If?

[bobbyb13]

If I wind up building a separate shed for surfboards and archery gear and the drum kit DOES actually get moved then you are correct Mike.

If?

        

[Zebidee]

Ba dum tssh!

[Xiaou2]

Nice Build.

 I used to stink at the game, when I was a kid that was barely able to see over the control panel.
Using mame and cheats, I learned some advanced tactics.  Below are TIPs, as well as some
of my ideas and other notes...

TIPS:   

1) Some of the Asteroids carry many more Crystals than others.  If you are noticing that very few are shaking out... its better to find another asteroid to mine instead.

2) Learn to be able to move the stick in very small amounts, to prevent over-shooting the crystals.  I believe you can actually turn the ship to face any direction, without actually moving the ship, if you have super precise control.

3) Try to find close groupings of asteroids. (look at the scanner map)  This allows you to quickly go from one rock to the next, especially if one of them isnt paying out well.  You can also use the other rocks as cover from the enemies.  And... if you were in the center of some rocks, crystals that would otherwise fly far away.. might get bounced back, when hitting one of the nearby rocks.

4)  Try not to fight the general Enemies, unless you absolutely have to.  Focus on mining, unless a Warrior (Tank) comes into play... as they can end up blowing you up.

5) Try not to travel long distances to find Asteroids, or to Chase an Escaping enemy.  The more time you are not mining... the more time that the enemies have to build Sinistar.

6) It does not take the maximum load of Sinibombs, to kill Sinistar... BUT... you NEED your Sinibombs to be stocked Full.  If you have Siniboms left after defeating him... it will give you a HUGE head-start on the next level  (where you will have far less time, and far more difficulty, to collect the bare minimal)

7) When you use Sinibombs, make sure that Sinistar is fairly Close to you... as otherwise the bombs might end up hitting one of the asteroids / enemies, instead of him.   This will help keep as many Sinibombs as possible, for the next level.   Release them at a fairly slow pace, rather than rapid-firing them all at once.   Watch the screen flicker, and count the presses / explosion, to make sure that you are not blowing more Bombs than is Needed to end him.

8 ) Keep an Eye on the Radar, right after Sinistar is built.. to make sure that he doesnt run right into you.

9) You can find the location where Sinistar is being built... and shoot bombs at it, before its even fully built.  This can help delay the build.. however,  this strategy can often fail,  as they can often build him back faster than you can mine for more bombs.   Being well stocked, or completely full.. before attempting this, is better than trying this with minimal bombs in reserve.

10)  Sinibombs have Auto-Tracking, so its possible that you can fire a bomb from quite far away... and it will still eventually hit Sinistar.  This could help or hinder you... depending on if the bombs fail to land.

 If your Sinibomb cache is Full.. you can Mine a rock to make some crystals float away from it... Then shoot some of your Sinibombs right afterwards (Long Distance / Offscreen).  These should home in on Sinistar... and while thats taking place... quickly scoop up the on-screen crystals that are still floating,  so that you replenish the bombs you just fired off.

 Basically, you are pre-replacing the bombs as you are shooting, allowing you to do damages, and still maintain a full Sinibomb cache.

11)  You can use the Asteroids to help block Sinistar.. as they will get in between you and him, as well as may slow him down a bit.   However, if you shoot a Sinibomb.. you have to be careful as they may hit the asteroids instead of him.


Notes:

 I love the game.  If only it was a hair bit more fair...  (hope the Dev finds the "perfect" romset before its too late).


 If I had the resources, I might consider adding to the experience, by making a moving motion simulator chair, to add to the experience.

- Use of  Bass-Shaker Transducers, would also add to the feel of things.  (such as when hitting an Asteroid, bullets..etc)
- Individual coils / shaker effects  might be applied when specifically pressing the Sinibomb button... so that you really Feel that massive surge of power, being released.

- Possibly find a way to activate flashing strobe light when you explode  ..and or, possibly add a red-tinted strobe.. for when enemies explode.

 *Instead of just flashing red for explosion effects.. one might use IR Heat Lamps.  That could be a wicked way to experience the Heat of an actual explosion (as well as already having that reddish orange colored bright light).   Not sure how well those lamps hold up to frequent on/off  cycles, however.


 Interesting enough... since the background of the game is black... one might even be able to create a Floating 3D effect, similar to an Asteroids Deluxe cabinet. Where the main monitor image is bounced off the front face of a half silvered mirror... And behind it,  you would place a monitor that had generic planets, and replicated game asteroids, and stars.. that are programmed to move (animate) as you moved the joystick.   This would create a real 3D depth of field effect, and could be quite visually amazing.

 They would have to be reduced in brightness and detail (blurred),  to help prevent confusion between the different depths, and the gameplay layer.


 *** A true Stereoscopic 3D version would be another awesome thing.  Same lightning fast 2d gameplay... but floating asteroids on different planes of depth, stars, comets, and explosion effects.. from particles, to pieces of enemy craft pieces... flying out,  and into,  the screen.

 *** I had started to design (on paper) an Updated version of the game.  One of the ideas, were that the enemies would actually become part of the main sinistar structure.   Any programmers out there, want to make an updated version?

---------------------------------
PERFECT ROMS - MOD
---------------------------------

 BYOAC member  10yard  looked over the source code to Sinistar... and said that he "MIGHT" be able to figure out how to restore the "Perfect" balanced version of the game  (before the company forced them to make the difficulty to an Unfair / Unbalanced state)

 He managed to notice that the first stage level is almost identical to the current rom.  However, I did mention to him, that the real changes ramp up dramatically on the 2nd level.   The first level is always going to be the easiest, because its meant to introduce the game to the player.   Its the ramp up on the next stages, that makes all the difference in the world.

 Maybe he could be persuaded with some donations, to look further into this.

 Its a real shame, that the game is basically Impossible to play for more than a few levels deep.

 Even with all of the Tips I provide here... i think most of the best players cant get past the 4th level.
I think with all of my hours of cheat play... I got enough experience to make it to level 5 Once,  and by that time:

1) You will be totally out of all extra Sinibomb reserves
2) You literally cant mine fast enough
3) The asteroids are too far apart... making it take even longer to mine
4) Asteroids give even less Crystals... and even more asteroids give little to none at all.
5) The enemies move and shoot, at speed and numbers, that are virtually impossible to mine and deal with.
6) Sinistar is built in the shortest amount of time. Its not even Realistically possible.

[Xiaou2]

Ohh, one other thing...  The Sit-Down version of Sinistar had a 2nd speaker,  to produce more of an environmental surround sound effect.

 It would be cool if you output the 2nd channel to a speaker near the base of the cabinet.
(or hanging rear speakers, on a suspended pipe thats affixed to the top of the cabinet)

 Im not sure if Mame ever finished or allowed the other Audio channels output.  Aaron Giles made some framework for it...
but I never tested things out.   It was stated that you would need two soundcards to get the 2nd channel.  Can anyone
confirm that as working?

 Does the Jroc have the 2nd speaker channel output?

 Otherwise, might have to check into FPGA options...

[bobbyb13]

If I remember correctly, the Jrok board is single channel for all games except Blaster (which requires more hardware to make stereo.)

Experience-wise I'm happy with Sinistar as built (although a cockpit of course must be awesome) but holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- is it difficult.

I have never gotten through the second screen.

The number and ferocity of the Warriors ramps up SO much for round two that they always get me.

And my highest score on the regular roms is only like 83k !
The AMOA version is barely less chaotic than the released one, and my highest score on that version is lower oddly enough.

Your hint about just launching some bombs once he is built is the one thing I haven't tried yet/been mindful of and I think it could be really meaningful.

I noticed also that if you let those little red ---daisies--- steal the crystals that you mined then Sinistar gets built all that much faster of course.
My latest tactic in round 2 is to make sure they don't get any.
Sinistar gets built so fast that even going into round 2 with 4 sinibombs doesn't bail me out.

A lot of things to keep in mind in this abusive game!

[Mike A]

Try threatening your cab with physical violence.

I don't think it works, but it makes me feel better.

[bobbyb13]

Try threatening your cab with physical violence.

I don't think it works, but it makes me feel better.

Haven't tried that yet, but I imagine if somebody sat outside and listened, after a few sessions one  could probably figure out what game I was playing based on the volume and amount of profanity.

[Zebidee]

Bobby, on reading your threads I do admit to feeling inspired. Not to violence, but to building.

Just gotta finish this editing sideline job first... it brings out the pedant in me, so want it done and gone   

[bobbyb13]

I'm embarassed to admit I have sketched out another cabinet.
 

Looks another insanity thread is incoming-

[Xiaou2]

cool.  please reveal as you design.  would be fun to potentially help in the planning.


 Here is a guy that gets pretty far into the game... despite having pretty bad ship precision control:




 I think my original idea for a Sinistar cabinet, was to make it spin.. but upon realizing how agile that ship
is... its an unrealistic idea.

 Maybe one could hook up 4 to 8 powerful solenoids, to fire off quick directional change simulation effects...
but not sure that would feel all that good (and would be loud, unless seriously dampened).

 I dont think servos are fast enough for the task.

 The other ideas I listed, would be cool though.  And nothing beats an enclosed sit-down environment cab.
You get enhanced comfort, superior focus, and enhanced isolated sound.

 The cab could be multi-use... with a swappable Starwars controller... and have motion drive for that particaular
game.


 Now, Spy Hunter,  on the other hand... I think that is a much more realistic motion cab.
I was thinking of making the cab move on tracks or cables/chain-drive ...Horizontally, to mirror the cars on-screen position.

 For quick forwards acceleration effects... probably use a separate sliding mechanism.  Or a seat/cab that pivots at a backwards
angle when you kick into high gear.  Alternatively, cab tilt could be used in some games, to similar climbing hills.

 When you bump enemy cars.. you would want to trigger a strong vibration effect. One might place a sensor on the wheels
end-stops... and if the player hits them with enough force/pressure... than it triggers a "crashing" effect.
Possibly to have a strong  "dead-stop"  mechanism on the cable/chain drive  (similar to a disc brake).


 Other ideas:

1) Boat Effects
 - Motor with an oval drive wheel under the seat, to crate a rise and fall effect, like a real speed boat
 - Blower vent + Water-Mister... to spray the player with light water mists, when on the boat stage

 (both would need to have a hacked game, to trigger these.. unless you flip a manual activation switch)
 (another possible way, is to use a webcam and software to see when the screen turns blue)

2) Road effects
 - Possibly feed the road sound audio directly into bass shakers, to try to get a road-feel
 - Or use a special looped sound, specifically tuned and designed for it

3) Working Gauges
 - Speedometer display.  Possibly RPM too.
 - User controls for working Air Vents (blowers), to keep the driver nice and cool  (and for boating effects)
 - Radio (at minimal, control the current speakers volumes. Other games may allow for changing BGM)
 - Lit up Custom made Dash
 - Additional USB ports / Charging ports?   (with phone pocket / mount?)

4) Controls
 - Add a Multi-Gear Shifter,  for expanded use in other racing games.
 - Add a Brake Peddle - For other games, and possibly... functional in spy hunter too.
 - Add a Clutch peddle
 - Possible E-brake
 (Mount shifter near side of Seat, instead of on Control Panel)

5) Full Surround sound speaker system, for use with many different games

6) Vertical Cabinet Tilt,  for potential use in a modified version of OutRun, to simulate the hills
7) Bucket racing seat, with Harness

8 ) Multi-Monitor possibilities

 - Could have a CRT mounted under a half-silvered mirror... with a widescreen LCD monitor placed Behind
the mirror.  That would allow for Original CRT,  or Modern display,  at your choice.
 - The Modern Rear Display, could be a Projector, with a projector screen.
 - Or one could do a three monitor setup, similar to TX1 or angled like the 3 screen Race Drivin.
 - Leave a place for possible VR gear / cables / ports

[Zebidee]

So... nothing fancy then?

[bobbyb13]

So... nothing fancy then?

 

I almost don't want to post what I built today, it is so blase relatively speaking.

But I will of course.
 

[10yard]

That sure is a beautiful cabinet Bobby.

---------------------------------
PERFECT ROMS - MOD
---------------------------------

 BYOAC member  10yard  looked over the source code to Sinistar... and said that he "MIGHT" be able to figure out how to restore the "Perfect" balanced version of the game  (before the company forced them to make the difficulty to an Unfair / Unbalanced state)

 He managed to notice that the first stage level is almost identical to the current rom.  However, I did mention to him, that the real changes ramp up dramatically on the 2nd level.   The first level is always going to be the easiest, because its meant to introduce the game to the player.   Its the ramp up on the next stages, that makes all the difference in the world.

 Maybe he could be persuaded with some donations, to look further into this.

 Its a real shame, that the game is basically Impossible to play for more than a few levels deep.

I've been having a deeper look into the workings of Sinistar.
After reviewing the assembly source at https://github.com/historicalsource/sinistar, I discovered 2 versions of the logic which calculate the odds of a warrior shooting.


The implemented logic (used by all known Sinistar roms):
There's a warrior aggression counter which starts from 4 on the first level (34 on all subsequent levels) and increments every ~256 frames until it reaches max of 127.   The odds of a warrior shooting is calculated as (current warrior aggression counter + 32) out of 160.  So at the start of the first level,  the warriors have 36/160 odds of shooting when it's possible.  At the start of the 2nd (and subsequent) levels,  the warriors have 66/160 chance of shooting.  All levels, if played long enough will get to 160/160 chance of shooting - meaning that warriors will shoot at every possible opportunity.  I tested this out with sinistar (rev3), sinistar2 (rev2) and sinistarp (AMOA prototype) roms.


Earlier logic,  which has been been superceeded:
From what I can make out, the warrior aggression counter increments in the same way as above but maxes out at 255 (instead of 127). The odds are not incremented by 32 either by the calculation.   This means the odds of shooting are significantly reduced.  So at the start of the first level, warriors would have 4 out of 255 odds of shooting.  At the start of the 2nd level,  warriors would have 34 out of 255 chance of shooting.  All levels, if played long enough will get to 255/255 chance of a warrior shooting - it'll take much longer for the aggression and shooting odds to max out.


I'm currently making some rom tweaks to revert this earlier logic and test out my findings.  Early signs show a noticeable change in the warrior shooting.
I'll create a separate thread with more detail soon.

[bobbyb13]

Wow- Impressive work 10yard!
It's cool just to learn how that functions to begin with, never mind the capacity to be able to change it.

I will be watching for this for sure.

[Xiaou2]

That sure is a beautiful cabinet Bobby.

---------------------------------
PERFECT ROMS - MOD
---------------------------------

 BYOAC member  10yard  looked over the source code to Sinistar... and said that he "MIGHT" be able to figure out how to restore the "Perfect" balanced version of the game  (before the company forced them to make the difficulty to an Unfair / Unbalanced state)

 He managed to notice that the first stage level is almost identical to the current rom.  However, I did mention to him, that the real changes ramp up dramatically on the 2nd level.   The first level is always going to be the easiest, because its meant to introduce the game to the player.   Its the ramp up on the next stages, that makes all the difference in the world.

 Maybe he could be persuaded with some donations, to look further into this.

 Its a real shame, that the game is basically Impossible to play for more than a few levels deep.

I've been having a deeper look into the workings of Sinistar.
After reviewing the assembly source at https://github.com/historicalsource/sinistar, I discovered 2 versions of the logic which calculate the odds of a warrior shooting.


The implemented logic (used by all known Sinistar roms):
There's a warrior aggression counter which starts from 4 on the first level (34 on all subsequent levels) and increments every ~256 frames until it reaches max of 127.   The odds of a warrior shooting is calculated as (current warrior aggression counter + 32) out of 160.  So at the start of the first level,  the warriors have 36/160 odds of shooting when it's possible.  At the start of the 2nd (and subsequent) levels,  the warriors have 66/160 chance of shooting.  All levels, if played long enough will get to 160/160 chance of shooting - meaning that warriors will shoot at every possible opportunity.  I tested this out with sinistar (rev3), sinistar2 (rev2) and sinistarp (AMOA prototype) roms.


Earlier logic,  which has been been superceeded:
From what I can make out, the warrior aggression counter increments in the same way as above but maxes out at 255 (instead of 127). The odds are not incremented by 32 either by the calculation.   This means the odds of shooting are significantly reduced.  So at the start of the first level, warriors would have 4 out of 255 odds of shooting.  At the start of the 2nd level,  warriors would have 34 out of 255 chance of shooting.  All levels, if played long enough will get to 255/255 chance of a warrior shooting - it'll take much longer for the aggression and shooting odds to max out.


I'm currently making some rom tweaks to revert this earlier logic and test out my findings.  Early signs show a noticeable change in the warrior shooting.
I'll create a separate thread with more detail soon.

 10Yard,  you are Awesome.

 Questions:

1) Is there an increase in the number of Warriors
2) Is there in increase in the speed, and acceleration (or accuracy)  in the warriors movements

3) Obviously, the later stages have less planetoids.  Is this repeated on a loop... or does there get less and less each progressing
round?

4) There seem to be more Asteroids that give LESS crystals out, on the higher levels.  Does this continue to get worse, each
progressing level.. Or,  does it cap out and loop back?

 (Seems to be a Maximum Crystal Payout, on certain asteroids... and gets worse each level up)

5) Does Sinistar get Artificially built ? Or changed to that, in the higher levels?   As it seems that even when I was catching every crystal, he was still getting built...  (rather than the drones stealing crystals to build him)

 

[kma]

There are some warriors with a higher rate of fire that sit and shoot asteroids giving the workers crystals.

[bobbyb13]

10yard's work on sorting through the warrior behaviour thing is quite illuminating.

I had NO idea how that sort of thing functioned in a game previously.
It is seriously cool stuff.

The ramp up of aggression for those warrior ships from first level to second is simply ridiculous.
I know that the operators were pushing on Williams to make the game harder/shorter for players, but holy crap!