Confusion on CRT TV support for Midway (Mortal Kombat) / SEIBU SPI (Raiden) Game

[HappehLemons]

Very new to all this and considering building my own dedicated setup however I know that Mortal Kombat / Raiden games run at oddball frequencies (54hz & 55hz) that are not supported my CRT TVs in the USA.

Is it possible to run these games? I've seen a lot of posts of people here troubleshooting to get them to work, but I still am uncertain if they work on CRT TVs or if there's a clear path to functionality or it's just a "hack" to get them to work?

 

[psakhis]

Hi, i have a consumer CRT and no problem with Groovymame and this games without any hack.

[haynor666]

Guys, problems are with USA TVs that does not support PAL frequencies. In EU every modern CRT TV is prepared to work for range 50 - 60 Hz.

I've found exceptions hovewer - some old models from Poland and Germany are working only in PAL. My Samsung 29'' does not like my custom resolutions and does not like 55 Hz modes.

[HappehLemons]

Hi, i have a consumer CRT and no problem with Groovymame and this games without any hack.

Are you in the USA? My confusion is how this would happen when this technically shouldn't work.

Does GroovyMAME adjust the games frequency to 60hz so it will display properly? Is there a way you can check to see if the games are running at 60fps or 54fps?

If it does auto adjust to 60hz, in the case your CRT does support 54hz (If you're using a PVM that supports that range) how does GroovyMAME know? This game is renowned being a pain to run on CRT in USA, so just wondering what's happening under the hood here.

[Zebidee]

Hi, i have a consumer CRT and no problem with Groovymame and this games without any hack.

Are you in the USA? My confusion is how this would happen when this technically shouldn't work.

Does GroovyMAME adjust the games frequency to 60hz so it will display properly? Is there a way you can check to see if the games are running at 60fps or 54fps?

If it does auto adjust to 60hz, in the case your CRT does support 54hz (If you're using a PVM that supports that range) how does GroovyMAME know? This game is renowned being a pain to run on CRT in USA, so just wondering what's happening under the hood here.

It depends on the individual TV.  Mostly it is much more than just "NTSC/PAL". In my experience, almost any TV from mid 80's to early 90's+ will at least work for a range of values around ~50 and ~60hz. Some of them will work across that entire range, so including the MK/Raiden/R-Type mid-50s frequencies.

For example, I have a Loewe 100hz RGB/SCART in my vertical cab and it rocks those vertical scrolling shmups. Interestingly enough, my cheap 20" "China TV", that I modded for component input (and use with a GreenAntz transcoder), works very happily at all 50-60hz frequencies too. But my 20" Sony Profeel RGB/SCART monitor, which is the most "pro" of all three, doesn't like those mid-50s frequencies much.

Do some testing with CRTEMU/Groovymame and the generic_15khz default. Start ArcadeOS and work through the generated video modes. Where your TV can't handle the frequencies, make a note and bracket them out by customising/editing your monitor.ini file. If you don't want to do that, just choose the NTSC preset.

The Presets tell Groovymame what frequencies etc. your TV can (theoretically) do. There is a pinned thread on that.

If the game falls outside the presets Groovymame will keep the game speed consistent, while auto-adjusting the frame rate output to match your TV's capabilities. This is part of what makes GM Groovy.

You can check what frequencies games actually run at by observing the info screen at start, or by starting GM from command line and generating a log (see Calamity's sig for details on how to do that).

EDIT: if you are thinking "The Presets" is a good name for a band, you are right. Funky 2000's era electronic dance (Australian).

[HappehLemons]

Hi, i have a consumer CRT and no problem with Groovymame and this games without any hack.

Are you in the USA? My confusion is how this would happen when this technically shouldn't work.

Does GroovyMAME adjust the games frequency to 60hz so it will display properly? Is there a way you can check to see if the games are running at 60fps or 54fps?

If it does auto adjust to 60hz, in the case your CRT does support 54hz (If you're using a PVM that supports that range) how does GroovyMAME know? This game is renowned being a pain to run on CRT in USA, so just wondering what's happening under the hood here.

It depends on the individual TV.  Mostly it is much more than just "NTSC/PAL". In my experience, almost any TV from mid 80's to early 90's+ will at least work for a range of values around ~50 and ~60hz. Some of them will work across that entire range, so including the MK/Raiden/R-Type mid-50s frequencies.

For example, I have a Loewe 100hz RGB/SCART in my vertical cab and it rocks those vertical scrolling shmups. Interestingly enough, my cheap 20" "China TV", that I modded for component input (and use with a GreenAntz transcoder), works very happily at all 50-60hz frequencies too. But my 20" Sony Profeel RGB/SCART monitor, which is the most "pro" of all three, doesn't like those mid-50s frequencies much.

Do some testing with CRTEMU/Groovymame and the generic_15khz default. Start ArcadeOS and work through the generated video modes. Where your TV can't handle the frequencies, make a note and bracket them out by customising/editing your monitor.ini file. If you don't want to do that, just choose the NTSC preset.

The Presets tell Groovymame what frequencies etc. your TV can (theoretically) do. There is a pinned thread on that.

If the game falls outside the presets Groovymame will keep the game speed consistent, while auto-adjusting the frame rate output to match your TV's capabilities. This is part of what makes GM Groovy.

You can check what frequencies games actually run at by observing the info screen at start, or by starting GM from command line and generating a log (see Calamity's sig for details on how to do that).

EDIT: if you are thinking "The Presets" is a good name for a band, you are right. Funky 2000's era electronic dance (Australian).

Interesting, thanks for all the info!

I am using a Sony KV-FS100 and have never had success running 50hz on it, so I have my doubts I'd have any success with 54hz.

Mortal Kombat is one of the main games I want to play, so I'd hate to go thru the whole setup for it to not work, but it sounds like a YMMV situation at the least! Hoping to play it at its original framerate if possible but I'm a bit new to this whole scene and don't know what CRT are and aren't capable of.

[Zebidee]

I am using a Sony KV-FS100 and have never had success running 50hz on it, so I have my doubts I'd have any success with 54hz.

Well, if it really is just NTSC ~60hz, then use the default NTSC preset in monitor.ini when running VMMaker, MK should still look pretty good, as good as possible, when GM does its frame rates matching thing. Calamity explains it better than me

[schmerzkaufen]

Note that even in Europe some late years digital chassis models could show frequency support limits despite being labeled as both PAL 50hz and NTSC compatible, Sony sets are infamous for it with some refusing to work with signals below 58Hz (modes in-between 50 and 58 won't display).

IDK how hard and expensive it's gotten to procure a fully-arcade compatible 15Khz CRT in N-A these days, but like 10y ago it was already a tougher challenge than in Europe. Ppl who didn't already own a classic cab would go for broadcasts or the rare fitting quality consumer sets, and when the RGB retro-collectorvirus rose from the niche, turning more mainstream, the prices of such monitors went totally berserk just like everything else at the time.
I don't want to even think about how much this antique stuff's going for now, especially if well preserved, it's scary. 

Not long ago I got rid of my last actual arcade PCBs and a supergun, I witnessed how much money ppl were ready to drop on that old stuff in a heartbeat without even bargaining.
It's like the world ends this year, you know.   

[Zebidee]

Note that even in Europe some late years digital chassis models could show frequency support limits despite being labeled as both PAL 50hz and NTSC compatible, Sony sets are infamous for it with some refusing to work with signals below 58Hz (modes in-between 50 and 58 won't display).

IDK how hard and expensive it's gotten to procure a fully-arcade compatible 15Khz CRT in N-A these days, but like 10y ago it was already a tougher challenge than in Europe. Ppl who didn't already own a classic cab would go for broadcasts or the rare fitting quality consumer sets, and when the RGB retro-collectorvirus rose from the niche, turning more mainstream, the prices of such monitors went totally berserk just like everything else at the time.
I don't want to even think about how much this antique stuff's going for now, especially if well preserved, it's scary. 

Not long ago I got rid of my last actual arcade PCBs and a supergun, I witnessed how much money ppl were ready to drop on that old stuff in a heartbeat without even bargaining.
It's like the world ends this year, you know.   

USA/America really is a special case because it never got the RGB/SCART as an industry standard. When DVDs came out and people demanded higher quality, they went with *component* instead of RGB/SCART, and because USA was already NTSC/60hz manufacturers for that market had no incentives to make TVs PAL/50hz capable. As USA is a leading market, it affects many other countries too

Which is a big part of the reason why we developed GreenAntz transcoders, to save those component TVs from waste and back into the eager hands of retrogamers. Especially in N/S-A.

Back in the heyday of the CRT sunset in Australia, a "sprinkling" of better Euro TVs was available. Out of 10 TVs, about 6 would be composite, 3 x component and 1 x RGB. So I passed over *many* component TVs that would've been great if I had some GreenAntz back then. Now we have RGB modding too, and if a TV can't be RGB modded then good chance it can be component modded. Often easier too (activating dormant inputs).

I used a lot of *better* Euro RGB TVs as arcade monitors (Philips, Loewe, Blaupunkt, Thomson). They all performed pretty well across both ~50 and ~60 ranges. Loewe better than most. However the only Sonys I used were PVMs, not consumer TVs which had a lesser reputation. Mostly the Sony consumer TVs I found in Australia were composite only, no RGB. Back then I could get PVMs for $50 or even free. No way I'd do the same today with PVMs given how people have re-valued them and the "retro-collectorvirus" pandemic.

I also liked the 25-29" Euro TVs because the tubes were of a higher quality. Whatever better brand Euro TV, towards the end mostly all Philips tubes, wider and with a fixed yoke (set in factory, buried in plastic). Very nice tubes, at least for 2-player cabs, which most people want. So even if the TV was dead I could recycle the tube with a Sharp Image universal chassis and get a really fantastic arcade monitor. Difficult to get those SI chassis now.

I've thrown out more RGB CRT TVs and broadcast monitors than most millenials will ever see... like starships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...  <release dove> ^

^ This is a vague reference to Rutger Hauer's monologue near the end of the original Blade Runner (1982), while poking a little fun at myself