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Author Topic: Fast Encoder (2021)  (Read 4962 times)

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D_Harris

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Fast Encoder (2021)
« on: October 16, 2021, 10:57:58 am »
I've spent hours researching and I would think that there would be a consensus by now on what encoder/s produce the least amount of lag.

I have an LG 27gk750f-b gaming monitor and need a fast and reliable encoder for use with single player games in mame, and would appreciate advice on what encoder to get.

Also, can someone school me on the difference between "encoder", "controller", and "adapter"? Are those words used interchangeably?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
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« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 11:31:00 am by D_Harris »
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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2021, 11:47:54 am »
ipac2 seems to be good off the shelf solution from what i have read up on. test your speed here: https://www.shmupspeed.com/ then can work out what sort of encoder limits your looking at.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2021, 03:45:47 pm »
I don't think that the Ultimarc ipac or Groovy Game Gear wiz devices introduce any noticeable lag.

Brook gaming adapters also have been tested to be virtually lagless.

Zero delay encoders definitely introduce lag.

Emulators also introduce lag. Many games just seem to have a certain amount of lag coded into them. For example the recent Saturn Tribute collection for Switch had 10+ frames of lag, but the original games on the Saturn had 5-7 frames of lag.

Here's something to study for more information.
https://rpubs.com/misteraddons/inputlatency

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2021, 05:56:03 pm »
I believe i read on this forum that zero delay has 1 frame delay. That's not bad for the price for a off the shelf solution. Arduino is just as cheapo but needs more work with soldering and compiling code etc.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2021, 07:17:56 pm »
The lag you experience is not from the encoders, but from the emulation software.

You can spend money on all kinds of zippy encoders for it to fail in buggy software.

My keyboard and Open Office is a perfect example.  I type 120 wpm. So does Linux, unfortunately Open Office doesn't.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2021, 03:56:26 am »
If emulator runs at full speed 60fps then shouldnt there be no lag? I thought input lag is usually hardware based?

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2021, 06:24:28 am »
Picture taking a subway ride where you have to change lines several times to get to your destination.
- Each step in the process has to happen in order.
- If the schedule is perfectly timed, you can proceed from one train to another to the next in the shortest possible time for the trip.
- It's more likely that there will be some delay every time you change trains.
- Those delays add up.

Like the subway trip, each step in the emulation process has to happen in order, it takes a certain amount of time, and delays add up.

The emulation process goes something very roughly like this.
- Apologies in advance for any errors/misunderstandings/gross oversimplifications.  Don't flame me, Haze!   :lol

When you press the button, ground is applied to the encoder input.

The encoder microprocessor has to recognize that the input is grounded, determine the correct output for that input, and load that output data into the outgoing USB buffer.

The computer's USB bus will poll the encoder at a particular rate (usually 500 or 1000 Hz IIRC) telling the encoder to send the data packet(s) in the buffer.

The emulator software has to recognize the keystrokes/button presses represented by those data packets and pass it to the game code inputs.

The game code has to interpret those inputs/apply them to the game in progress, calculate all the things going on in the game, and generate the sound and video outputs that are passed back to the emulator.

The emulator software processes the audio and video data and passes it to the designated audio device and video card.

The video card converts the video data into video signals for the monitor.

The monitor displays those signals.

Assuming 60 frames per second, that whole process has to happen within 16.67ms of the last frame to display on the next frame.
- Lots of steps, lots of possibilities for delays.


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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2021, 01:40:22 pm »
If emulator runs at full speed 60fps then shouldnt there be no lag? I thought input lag is usually hardware based?
It's an emulator.  The game isn't running on the computer, it's running on a simulation of original hardware running on the computer.

Inputs will never register as quickly as on the original hardware.  This hurts the playability of some games more than others.

And it isn't just a delay in the input, it's also a delay in seeing the result of your input. It may be 60fps, but you're seeing each frame later than you would on original hardware on a CRT monitor.

I'm a casual player and don't really have a problem with it unless I try to play shmups with triple buffering on (eliminates screen tearing).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 06:23:10 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2021, 01:41:25 pm »
I believe i read on this forum that zero delay has 1 frame delay. That's not bad for the price for a off the shelf solution. Arduino is just as cheapo but needs more work with soldering and compiling code etc.

Yeah, the zero delay is fine if you don't care about lag. The name, zero delay, rubs me the wrong way. It may be cheap, but it's a bad design with deceptive marketing.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2021, 03:12:31 pm »
Agreed, you would expect that something called zero delay would actually have a delay of 0.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2021, 06:57:31 pm »
If only we knew who came up with such a name for this device....
rofl

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2021, 09:49:05 pm »
I've also seen them called "no" delay.. although I suppose that's not much different.

Does anyone actually notice this lag? I've played on cheap game pads and im just not perceptive enough to pick up on the delay.

The only test I've seen that kinda makes sense to me is the single button test.
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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2021, 12:57:32 am »
Been using ipac's since 2005 (I think) There is no comparison, to me they are the best. Those $12 amazon encoders, are junk. When you see them, run fast and far in the other direction.
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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2021, 05:52:33 am »
Been using ipac's since 2005 (I think) There is no comparison, to me they are the best. Those $12 amazon encoders, are junk. When you see them, run fast and far in the other direction.

Sorry but they work as fast as any keyboard.  I like the $10 Dragon rise encoders.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2021, 09:19:03 am »

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2021, 10:31:53 am »
Here is an interesting page: github.com/maziac/lagmeter/blob/master/Docs/LagMeasurements.md

What do you guys think?

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2021, 04:59:47 pm »
low lag input but as mentioned above posts input lag is only part of the picture.
be good to make this lag tester then do some experiments.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2021, 06:18:48 pm »
Here are my observations about these two pages:

https://rpubs.com/misteraddons/inputlatency
It's a convenient, easy-to-read presentation of results, but there's no mention on that page of test methods, hardware/software/firmware used during testing, test conditions, etc.
- That information is probably available somewhere, but I don't see a link to it on that page.   :dunno

If all they are presenting is the device info and a time measurement, it is impossible to independently verify those results because you don't know what aspect of lag was tested and you don't know how the tests were conducted.   :banghead:

There's probably a lot more info available, but this page by itself fails to follow any semblence of the scientific method.

github.com/maziac/lagmeter/blob/master/Docs/LagMeasurements.md
This page is a great example of lag test documentation.   :applaud:
- Terms are clearly defined and there is more project-related info on GitHub.
- Test conditions and hardware/software/firmware used are clearly listed.
- Anyone who wants to independently verify the results can use the same testing methods.
- Third parties can ask questions about the testing methods if they think there is a flaw in them.


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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2021, 01:18:54 am »
I don't know why you ask about input lag because you are using a LCD screen, which by definition is laggy.

If you want MAME and low lag, get an old CRT. If you can get component input TV, common in NY, get a GreenAntz transcoder from me (which really is zero lag, well some tens of nanoseconds compared to the tens of *microseconds* for the controllers on those pages linked) and you'll be on your way.
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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2021, 02:51:30 am »
If only we knew who came up with such a name for this device....
rofl

 :dunno Coulda been anyone.  ;) :D

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2021, 12:32:11 pm »
I don't know why you ask about input lag because you are using a LCD screen, which by definition is laggy.

If you want MAME and low lag, get an old CRT. If you can get component input TV, common in NY, get a GreenAntz transcoder from me (which really is zero lag, well some tens of nanoseconds compared to the tens of *microseconds* for the controllers on those pages linked) and you'll be on your way.

What I have is a gaming LCD monitor. (It has 2ms lag). The idea is to cut lag wherever possible.

CRTs are no longer common, but if you have a recommendation on where I may find a TV with "component input", or any 19" CRT TV for that matter, I'd appreciate any pointers.

As far as control input, how fast can I get and what hardware would I need? Does anyone here have experience or opinions on the Teensy USB Development board? (I believe it's up to 4.1).

Again, my priority is MAME, on a PC.

Thanks.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2021, 12:43:16 pm »
If i had knows crts were this good id never have thrown my old tv's away at the trash dump.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2021, 01:10:34 pm »
Again, my priority is MAME, on a PC.

If the game code in MAME is polling once for each refresh, that's at most 60 times per second, or at 16.6666ms intervals.   Unless MAME is buffering those inputs and streaming each of them out once per refresh (which I doubt, but I guess is possible) anything which changes within that interval will never be seen, other than the last input activated before the poll.  In the case of multiple different inputs during that timeframe, those would be packetized by a USB controller, read by the OS and likely even the game code, in the order it wants to, so that that certain events will always have priority over others.  The PS/2 standard, however, is purely serial, so this doesn't occur at the hardware level.  But even that is left to the whims of code in both emulator and game.

I hate lag, but I have never experienced palpable lag unless OS, display or ridiculously high debounce time related.  I'm honestly a bit bewildered as to why, using MAME, there is an obsession for sub-millisecond response from human actuated controls which most could only actuate 30 times per second on a good day with rusty leaf switch contacts :)  IMHO, the display and system specs are where the rubber meets the proverbial road with regard to lag.

But I could be wrong.  If so, someone please tell me how.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 01:52:20 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2021, 01:38:37 pm »
Quote
if you have a recommendation on where I may find a TV with "component input", or any 19" CRT TV for that matter, I'd appreciate any pointers.

A quick search of Facebook Marketplace brings up dozens of CRT TVs in close proximity to you.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2021, 02:05:00 pm »
Imagine a blind test scenario in which a picky gamer is asked to evaluate several different controllers on a MAME set-up. Afterwards they indicate their preference for one of the controllers only to be told it was just one controller all along... Does this sound familiar to anyone?   :lol

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2021, 09:14:16 pm »
CRTs are no longer common, but if you have a recommendation on where I may find a TV with "component input", or any 19" CRT TV for that matter, I'd appreciate any pointers.

Craigslist and other online 2nd hand sites, street corners, ebay, charity stores, cousins/friends, garage of the guy next door... Many places, but probably not your traditional electronics retailer. You will have to look and ask around.

It is true that people have started recognising the value or old CRTs. Sometimes these days you have to pay a couple of hundred dollars for a TV that probably would have given away a few years ago, but I still hear stories every day of people getting great deals or even free TVs.

Component input (YPbPr) is quite common in the USA for TVs from about early 1990s onwards.

Given that you are in the USA, you could probably even get an arcade monitor fairly cheaply.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2021, 09:43:36 pm »
Every time someone in the US claims they can't find CRTs, I post links or information and then they still pretend they are hard to get.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2021, 10:39:22 pm »
I definitely have those stories to tell Zebidee (as you know).  I purchased one Sony CRT for around $100, it didn't work out for modding and had no component in, then I found 3 more sets for free one of which I'm now using in a project (has component in) using your transcoder.  Prices vary for CRT TVs here in Australia, commonly between $60 - $350 depending on the model.  Then there's the holy grail of CRT monitors (other than arcade monitors) - broadcast PVM and BVM Sony units and the like.  These sell for $400 - $1000+.

This guy has plenty to say about CRT repair & restoration, CRT modding, CRT love, etc, worth checking out.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwOTvOtoAjiqQx1PCrfmTKw
« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 10:42:34 pm by Ond »

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2021, 12:34:49 am »
First time last week using mame shaders. Shocked iv been using mame for over 15 years and didnt know about the shaders since it worked good with normal scanlines.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2021, 02:46:58 am »
Thanks for the link, Ond! He certainly seems to know his CRTs and CRT market. The PVMs have mostly enjoyed a elite status, except for a brief period as the CRT sunset came

You may pall to hear that at one time nearly ten years ago I had a shed full of PVMs that I had to basically take to the dump. I had to move my ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- overseas and a container full of PVMs would have made me look like an importer (tax). It wasn't just that they were of no "value" at the time, I knew their real value. No tears about how much they cost me, it wasn't a huge amount, they were super-cheap back then because nobody wanted them. I just didn't have any *time* to deal with getting rid of them past someone offering to come by with a truck and grab them.

I knew they'd be worth money in the future, but had no options left. Loved ones needed support, time to go was now. Storage unreasonable. Passing them on too difficult. So off to the tip it was.

Back before then, I put several of my Sony 2730QM PVMs into recovered cab shells (mostly old LAI cabs, an Australian brand), they are great for 2-players, and I sold them on with sophisticated custom gaming systems installed. However, the Sony PVMs weigh a ton (well, about 35-40kg even when stripped down). I'm a big guy and at the time I installed them I was doing a lot of weights at the gym, even so getting them (even after de-casing) into the monitor bay so you could screw in the bolts to the T-nuts was a big effort. Not for everybody.

I still have one Sony PVM2730QM, but it is caseless. I exported it inside one of my cabs as the monitor! It is completely decased and tha stuff is gone. With a mighty effort, I've since removed the PVM to fix a couple of things (now done), but replaced it with a Panasonic 28" CRT with SCART/RGB inputs in the interval. I'd found the Panasonic in a 2nd hand store in Bangkok in 2008 (wife gave me looks at the time, but still supported me <3). Panasonic TV works great too, no need to change it out. But now I have a de-cased yet repaired Sony 27" PVM sitting in the shed wanting a home. I guess that demands a project!

I had to fix something on the Panasonic too, one of the high-voltage caps in the power supply died. But I was able to fix that without removing everything, so it is still in the cab.

I guess if you want to use old CRTs you'd better brace yourself for the need to repair them occasionally. Either learn yourself, or find someone local that can. At some point I decided I'd better learn for myself.

P.S. I know that the market in Thailand is different to NY or Melbourne, I can still buy CRTs retail here, but yesterday I was at the local mechanic shop and saw 3 ~20" CRTs of 2000-2005 era right in front of me. Would be perfect for cabs. My barber has another one too that would probably be suitable, but I haven't seen him in a while ;)  /COVID. They all looked either RGB or component-capable or moddable. I reckon if I made a reasonable offer they'd consider, maybe say yes. How much for a replacement LCD? $50-60?

I definitely have those stories to tell Zebidee (as you know).  I purchased one Sony CRT for around $100, it didn't work out for modding and had no component in, then I found 3 more sets for free one of which I'm now using in a project (has component in) using your transcoder.  Prices vary for CRT TVs here in Australia, commonly between $60 - $350 depending on the model.  Then there's the holy grail of CRT monitors (other than arcade monitors) - broadcast PVM and BVM Sony units and the like.  These sell for $400 - $1000+.

This guy has plenty to say about CRT repair & restoration, CRT modding, CRT love, etc, worth checking out.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwOTvOtoAjiqQx1PCrfmTKw

Check out my completed projects!


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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2021, 10:18:49 pm »
FWIW, I've been using an Ultimarc U-HID (2 sticks, 2 spinners, 1 trackball, lots of buttons) with a Windows PC and never seen any noticeable lag.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2021, 10:03:36 am »
If a monitor has dvi and vga inputs would there be a lag difference between them?

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2021, 10:36:27 am »
If a monitor has dvi and vga inputs would there be a lag difference between them?

I'd say that there is a good possibility.  DVI digital signals are a lot closer to what drives the final outputs to a digital panel, so less processing should be required.  Less processing, less lag.

On that note, I would also say that native resolution should always be used for a digital panel.  Again, less processing inside the display.  But there is a caveat for very high resolution displays.  If your system can't run 4k at full speed, there will be other issues.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 10:38:22 am by RandyT »

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2021, 03:58:01 pm »
If a monitor has dvi and vga inputs would there be a lag difference between them?

Intuitively, I'd say likely "yes" because DVI signals will require digital processing -> lag, if the display is otherwise analogue/CRT.

However, if display is digital/LCD anyway, possibly no real difference as the digital processing is there regardless.

Somebody, somewhere must've measured this by now.
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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2021, 08:19:50 pm »
If a monitor has dvi and vga inputs would there be a lag difference between them?

However, if display is digital/LCD anyway, possibly no real difference as the digital processing is there regardless.


VGA is an analog signal.  It takes more processing (time) to convert analog to digital than to convert one strictly digital format to another.  In fact, VGA goes through two conversions.  One at the PC and one at the Display (assuming a digital monitor)  It's always best to keep conversions to a minimum by giving the monitor what is native to it's display technology and in the case of digital displays, it's native panel resolution.

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Re: Fast Encoder (2021)
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2021, 01:35:49 am »
If you have a digital display then using available digital input certainly makes sense, saves some analogue-digital conversion. Exactly how fast that is depends on the display device. Regardless, there will be additional delay at the display's digital signal processing stages.

In terms of the digital-analogue conversion (DAC) from the video card end it doesn't matter as much. By the early 1990's RAMDACs were integrated into the display controller chip on video cards which, as far as I understand it, means there is essentially no additional delay from the DAC processing.
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