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Author Topic: Question about subwoofer isolation.  (Read 9994 times)

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RandyT

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2021, 09:54:06 am »
Tracker/MOD music was the first thing on computers worthy of piping through a decent audio system.

IMHO that honor belongs to the Roland MT-32 sound module. I'm astounded how good old Sierra games sound hooked up to one of those bad boys.

Being worthy of piping through a decent audio system (i.e. not limiting one's self to the little monitor speakers) and comparing sound technologies are two different things.  Sound Monitor software was widely used on the C64 at least a couple of years before anything made use of the MT-32 module.  Plus, it was so costly that few even owned it.

To be honest, even though the music sounded great through those devices, it felt to me at the time like something was about to be lost.  We went from creatively squeezing the last drop of musical performance from very limited sound circuitry, to what was essentially just using a modern synthesizer with some canned samples.  It signaled the end of the "one man show" game developers, as the tools were progressing to the point of being accessible to traditionally trained musicians and artists.

This demo music sounds as though it could have been produced with Sound Monitor or Rock monitor.  The difference between the two was the ability to use limited, low quality samples with the latter.
 


And this one shows some amazing creativity using the limited number of voices available.  I have no idea what was used to create the music in this one.  Definitely atypical for the 64, but also recent.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 12:58:55 pm by RandyT »

Xiaou2

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2021, 10:29:06 am »
Howard just wanted to know if he should isolate his Subwoofer....and now the question is ..the price of graphics cards.. FS.

@ Howard, your question was best answered by BadMouth a few posts after your own  :lol  He builds speakers and has a good understanding of the topic.

@ Xiaou2, your posts are long and full of truths, half truths, and a fair bit of bunk.  E.g. getting a set of audiophile headphones is the most affordable way to hear music as the artist intended.  I agree, very true! $250+ headphones sounding better than $100K speakers, no. 

Wall of text to follow?  ::)

 Its Physics man.

 The Mass of a large woofers cone + Coil  ...means that it takes more energy to be able to stop and start its movements.

 - If the cone does not stop as fast as the intended signal proposed... then you get distortion of the intended sounds.
 - If the cone does not accelerate as fast as the intended signal... then you will also have distortions.


 A headphone driver, is literally light as a feather.  Sennheiser also uses aluminum wire coils, to further
reduce the cone drivers mass... making the drivers even lighter / faster, and thus even more accuracy is possible.

 There is no way to easily scale an 8" woofer (or larger), to match an Audiophile headphones responses.
If you make the cone too thin and light, it will physically warp as it moves... causing even more distortions.
They developed many composite materials that are light and strong... but even then, they still cant match the
speed and accuracy of a high quality headphone driver.

 The only other thing they can, and Do... is to use a more powerful speaker magnet... and potentially
make the driver coil stronger.   There are limits, as you do not want to change the OHM range too much,
you have to match the other drives in the system, and you still tend to want to keep the coil mass down
as much as possible too.   These speakers will each up much more wattage... but they will have better
control of the woofer, due to the increased magnetic strength to get things to move quicker / stop quicker.

 * I will add, that any woofer less than 8",  is never going to have a good deep base response.
There are ways to use ports to create extended fake-bass.. but thats artificial and distorted.. and
thus not worthy of comparison.


 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before.  Most specifically a
Sennheiser HD set.   I can tell you, that there is NO comparison from a sub 100$ headphone, or
a typically well known brand of  "Gaming Headphone"... that can come within 1/100 th   of the sound
quality that comes from a Audiophile grade Sennheiser headphone.

 As Ive stated before... the sound was so clear and "3D".. that it made me think that I actually
left all 4 of my house speakers on (surround sound)  ...when playing a DVD movie.  There was also one track on
my MP3 players track list, that starts out with a "Thunder" sound effect... and then rolls into soft rain.  This
very track has fooled me at least two different times... to look out of the nearest window, to see the "Storm"
only to realize that there was no storm.  I later put the headphones on one of my family members, and as soon
as the "storm" section played, they also looked out of the window... not realizing it was from the headphones.
Such a feat is not easy, unless you have very high quality drivers, that have such low distortion levels, as to
be nearly non-existent, even at the highest of volume levels.


 I also own a LOT of house speakers, of various brands and qualities.   The only speakers that come
close are my EPI 100v speakers... and while I got them used and refoamed for 100$... that was
not their original listed price "New".    According to the data, they were $198 in  1967 to 1970 Dollars.
An Inflation calculator says thats over $1000 of todays US dollar currency.

 They trounce the living daylights out of the $3000 speakers at the local high end stereo shop.
(Not even close to competing)

 But even then... they still have limitations, that the Senns will always be able to defeat, due to
the scale / physics.

Mike A

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2021, 10:49:56 am »
How do you fit all of that audio equipment in the van that you live in?

Xiaou2

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2021, 11:00:28 am »
Even cheap speakers can do a pretty good job in that range with lower volumes and source material without a lot of cross over.

Ima have to disagree with this. As someone who has owned a range of audio gear over the years, I've noticed a distinct difference in the relative quality of respective equipment on the low end.

Good low end should be distinct and punchy. Bad low-end can sound muddy and muffled.
Eh, I spent money on Morel CAT308 tweeters and decent Morel woofers to build a pair of speakers for a dedicated listening area.  When all was said and done my reaction was... "for the volume levels I listen at, I could have got this sound out of $30  3/4 inch silk domes and Dayton Reference mids."  The Morel speakers would no doubt rule at higher volume levels, but I doubt they'll ever be driven hard enough to experience their full potential.  The lifelong dream of a dedicated listening room was fun to plan and build, but hasn't been utilized in 6 months. (those subs are on foam furniture pads btw)

 

 I dont have the time to research all of the drives you used.   What I can say... is that your main woofers are too small,
and the use of Subs to try to fill in the missing mid-bass and low-bass (above sub levels), is going to be very much
lacking.

 In addition... as Ive mentioned before... Tube Ported speakers create artificial bass sounds, which only
muddies and distorts the sounds that come out of them.  When you hear a quality speaker that is
designed for sealed enclosure air-pressures... the natural bass sounds will be like honey to your ears,
compared to piles of dog poo.

 I will always advise picking up a pair of EPI's inverted tweeters.  Ive never heard a more spatial 3d soundstage
from any other tweeter.   There is a guy that hand makes them, that used to work for the original company:

 https://www.humanspeakers.com/diy/parts/002me.htm

 Supposedly the new version is even better than the originals... but I couldnt tell you, as I have all original
speakers.

 Im not sure why you would separate music listening, from home theatre?  Or maybe you do not have
a HT setup?

Xiaou2

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2021, 11:08:22 am »
How do you fit all of that audio equipment in the van that you live in?

 All of the belongings I was able to save, were put into storage for quite some time, before I was able to
eventually get back on my feet, and be able to afford a place of my own.

 That said... Im out of work now... and in if I cant get something within a years time, Im toast.

Xiaou2

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2021, 12:25:22 pm »
The Playstation Gold wireless headphones do the job well enough.


 - I cant find any specs on their drivers... which tends to mean, they are the cheapest drivers possible.
You are missing out on details that they will never be able to replicate.  Wireless also tends to means even
worse audio quality overall (compared to cabled), as well as potential for getting some nice brain tumors.

  But if I'm listening to music, I prefer not to have something strapped on my head.


 With Specific Senn models... they are so light, and over-the-ear (does not rest on the ears)...
that you dont even feel them, and sometimes forget them are on, even +8hrs later.

 Furthermore... when you listen to them, they dont sound like headphone speakers.  It sounds as if
you actually have house speakers all around you, playing in surround sound.

 I do prefer using the EPI speakers though, as the experience is different.  Its just that I cant always play
music at certain hours, and so the headphones work well in that situation.

 Also, they make superior Ear Muffs, for the harsh winter cold.  (The headphone cable is removable via
a jack)


  A bass drum is also just not the same when approximated by a tiny driver.

 If you are speaking in terms of Headphone drivers... then you are wrong.  They scale, because they are close to
your ears.  The senns I have, go all the way down to 10hz.  (and up to 41khz  and 0.05% thd)
If the recording was created properly... then the bass levels can go extremely low.

 If you are speaking about House speakers... then I agree, with some points:
The EPIs I have, only have 8" woofers... but the amount of bass they produce, completely trounces my former
12" techniques speakers.  The higher magnet strength + stronger coils = Punchier, deeper, floor shaking bass.

 I would not go any smaller than 8".

 I was given a pair of Advent 12" two ways (bullnose).  These are strange, in that they have a
10" driver,  that was inserted into a 12" basket.  The bass levels, to me... are WAY too over-kill for music.
Though... for movie effects... they shake the room better than many peoples subs.. while putting out good
a much wider spectrum of bass / midbass.

Possible, but a lot of those "audiophile" systems emphasize mid to high frequencies.


 You clearly are talking about the modern eco crap, that have like three 6" woofers in them.  Yeah... those are Trash,
not Audiophile level speakers.   They often get sold to suckers whom like the look of them, and the space savings..
but they dont have the bass and midbass... and them trying to replace it with a crappy sub, doesnt really work.

 There are some audiophile speakers with larger more powerful drivers in them... but they tend to cost more than
I have ever made in a single year.

 Which is why, its often far better to pick up Vintage audiophile level speakers.  (typically sealed, from the 70s, and weight like 50lbs each)


 A system designed for classical music/jazz might sound spectacular for those genres, but they usually don't fare well for more contemporary material. It's all about having the right tool for the job.  I like many different genres of music (I think Jazz is the only one I really dislike  :lol), thus my "Jack of all trades, master of none" comment.

 I also listen to virtually all types of music... and there is literally nothing that I cant throw at my EPI 100v's, that it does not handle well.

 That's the beauty of my approach to audio.  It doesn't matter how it works...  I think you missed the "If it sounds good to you" prerequisite.  Everyone isn't an audiophile, and even some who claim to be have done nothing more than thrown away money for something they are unable (or unwilling) to fully appreciate.  It's often akin to paying someone to come to your house and adjust your high-end AV equipment to cinema specs, and twiddling the color settings a day after he leaves.  Touch those knobs once, and you could have saved a fortune  :lol

 If you had gotten a 46" TV, when they were  1080p...  At that time, it was amazing... compared to standard-definition TV sets.
But compare that to a true 4k TV, playing 4k video... and its on a whole other level.

 It was not until you actually saw the thing in-person... that you realized how much more detail that could be experienced.

 Audiophile quality speakers and Headphones are like that.  You have to get a good set, and hear them in-person.
Once you have a real audiophile grade experience... you can never go back.  It becomes similar to going back to a black and white TV.

 The main problem, is knowing which speakers / headphones are ACTUALLY audiophile grade... and which ones are basically
fraudulent overpriced BS.  (Such as: Bose, Beats)


 Also, I will state, that I never thought Id be an Audiophile.  It sounded way beyond my financial means... and my personal bias
was that it was all over-priced hype, that was not really worth the money.   After getting a taste of the Senns... I was forever changed.
I was able to hear lyrics in songs that I had listened to for decades... and never could understand what they were saying... and NOW, for
the first time... was able to make these lyrics out perfectly.   All of my music had to be re-listened to... as it was a completely different experience, with such low-distortion headphones.

 And the EPIs true bass sounds, instead of the farty ported speakers?  I almost cried on the spot. it was that much different,
and that much better.  Imagine being fed HotDogs your entire life... and then you were finally handed a perfectly seasoned, top quality, melt in your mouth... Steak.  Its THAT kind of difference!


 The fake audiophile stuff, is like getting a 720p monitor, that used an interlace mode to achieve a higher resolution.  Its still
nowhere near the experience of a  4k TV, for example.  The real deal, is on a whole other level...  and,  if you know what to look for, its often not hard to pick up superior vintage gear... for better prices than the cheapest ECO Crap, at the high end Stereo Shop.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 12:27:03 pm by Xiaou2 »

Ond

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2021, 05:47:12 pm »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 05:55:27 pm by Ond »

yotsuya

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2021, 08:45:27 pm »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...
Ond, if you ain’t pushing 50,000 watts into your dome, you ain’t even tryin’


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***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Ond

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2021, 08:49:25 pm »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...
Ond, if you ain’t pushing 50,000 watts into your dome, you ain’t even tryin’


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well this is true!  Ha hah, remember that guy?   :cheers:

BadMouth

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2021, 10:50:01 pm »
I dont have the time to research all of the drives you used.   What I can say... is that your main woofers are too small,
and the use of Subs to try to fill in the missing mid-bass and low-bass (above sub levels), is going to be very much
lacking.

Those aren't your average 6" speakers.  They are solid down to 60Hz in a sealed enclosure.

Quote
In addition... as Ive mentioned before... Tube Ported speakers create artificial bass sounds, which only
muddies and distorts the sounds that come out of them.  When you hear a quality speaker that is
designed for sealed enclosure air-pressures... the natural bass sounds will be like honey to your ears,
compared to piles of dog poo.

Old codger audiophiles have actually come around on this one in recent years.  I expect to hear/feel the oscillations from a bass guitar string or drum skin.  This is partly accurate bass, but also time alignment with the other drivers since the related sound cues are not limited to bass.  I ported to get lower extension.  Adjusted port length and damping through trial and error until I got the sound I was after.  I may try them sealed someday to see if the loss of the lowest frequencies is worth it.
Tracks I use when evaluating bass: Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck, Hell Haw (live) by John 5, Path of Two by Mike Rowland (masters of percussion album).  To test for port noise, I'll break out Computer Love by Techmaster P.E.B. and ASR 10 by Bass Outlaws.  Don't blow your precious headphones listening to 90's bass albums.  ;)


Quote
Im not sure why you would separate music listening, from home theatre?  Or maybe you do not have
a HT setup?
The acoustics of my living room are atrocious and I am not willing to change seating locations or add any absorption material to the decor.



pbj

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2021, 11:05:58 pm »
Loudest thing I’ve ever heard in my life was two startled macaws in an outside cage when their owner said “go look at my parrots” and I’ve been to a Slayer concert and air shows for comparison.

My eye balls literally vibrated and I thought I was going to ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- myself.  I probably did go do a maintenance wipe.  I mean those ---daisies--- gave me everything they had from two feet away.


What speakers can recapture this?

I aspire to be involved in the classic gaming community.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2021, 01:44:57 am »
Loudest thing I’ve ever heard in my life was two startled macaws in an outside cage when their owner said “go look at my parrots” and I’ve been to a Slayer concert and air shows for comparison.

My eye balls literally vibrated and I thought I was going to ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- myself.  I probably did go do a maintenance wipe.  I mean those ---daisies--- gave me everything they had from two feet away.


What speakers can recapture this?

 :laugh2:
What's that watermelon doing there?

RandyT

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2021, 12:53:02 pm »
Quote from: Xiaou2

I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before.


The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

At least someone understands.  It's not above the 10k mark, but my 600watt powered sub delivers bass which can literally knock the dust out of my ceiling tiles when my volume finger gets itchy.

When a drummer nails that 25+" bass drum, it sends out a shock wave which passes over your entire body.  Listening to that same sound in headphones is like hearing a band playing from the nosebleed seats, as opposed to being in the third row.  And don't even get me started on the inability of such small drivers to adequately reproduce home theater effects the likes of explosions, jet engines, etc...

And then there is the whole "ambiance" argument.  In most cases, sound doesn't travel in a straight line to your eardrums.  It reflects off of surfaces in the room, creating a presence which is wholly artificially approximated with even the best "3D" headphones.  To my ears, a well-tuned room setup with appropriately sized speakers, sounds much more natural than the results of trying to replicate what a studio sound engineer heard at the control panel.  This is starting to sound like the debate over pixels in old arcade graphics being displayed on LCD panels.  The goal isn't to precisely isolate 1's and 0's, it's to re-create the feeling of being in the room where the band is performing.

I use headphones when I am looking for subtleties, like the footsteps of an approaching enemy player.  I don't listen to music with them and gifting me $500 headphones won't change that :)

« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 01:59:58 pm by RandyT »

Mike A

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2021, 01:08:41 pm »
500 dollars? pffft.

Do you guys even audiophile?

You aren't even hearing real sound until you spend 70 grand on speaker cables.

And you don't even hear the real lyrics to songs on anything less that ten thousand dollar headphones.

On lesser equipment you are just hearing what the Trilateral Commission wants you to hear.




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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2021, 05:04:59 pm »
I knew a guy in the 90s that had two speakers used for symphonies and operas.  He was a huge opera fan.  Flew to the Met several times a year, that kind of whackadoo.  The price I was told was "over $10,000 each" but $10,000 dollars is one of those sticky dollar amounts we slap on everything we can't properly value.  Like, "if you break that pacman, it'll cost you $10,000" or "if you break the bowling pin machine, that will be $10,000."  I've been threatened with $10,000 penalties my entire life.  So, who the hell knows but he wasn't ostentatious and someone crazy enough to fly to New York several times a year is just crazy enough to spend that kind of 90s money.

The only thing particularly notable about them was the sound was... full? even out in his damn front yard with just the front door open.  And not "loud."  You could comfortably talk over it.  Louder up closer, obviously, but never like rattle the windows.

And I'll go with that other sticky dollar amount that buyers always use and say, eh, I'd give you $500 for it.

 :dunno
I aspire to be involved in the classic gaming community.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2021, 06:53:59 pm »
A rounded ‘goto’ figure is fine for audio gear. Prices vary from really cheap stuff to many thousands, the guy was probably just being modest. Mike A’s sarcasm about audiophiles is not without some truth.  Some people have more dollars than sense and will let salespeople talk them into buying all kinds of crap.  Over-priced cables is one really good example.  The “blind test” in which a group of audiophiles are asked to judge different cable types from cheap electrical cable to very expensive ‘audio grade’ cable on the same pair of speakers, waffling on about subtle nuances in the differences between each only to be told it was the same cheap cable all along…  In the era of digital audio overpriced cables are an even bigger joke.

When I got into audio as a hobby years ago I discovered I could build kit versions of quality speakers offered by manufactures for much cheaper than the shelf price.  I’ve never looked back.

This is an 'arcadephile' forum not an audiophile forum.  You guys could get all steamed up about control panel ergonomics and the merits of leaf switches over cherries to the nth degree because it’s your (my) passion. Thankfully, in general, it’s a much cheaper hobby than high-end audio.

I worked with a guy a whose passion was high-end cars and motor racing.  Those rounded off sticky figures you were  quoting pbj?  Don’t even apply to that guy. Each to their own…

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2021, 02:29:48 am »
Reminds me of a classic joke from a former hobby on the mainland.

"How do you make a small fortune in auto racing...?
Start with a large one."

And the racket in audio gear is unbelievable.
My friends who worked in the industry in the 90s said the mark up on even inexpensive stuff started at 300% and went up from there.

Ond is correct once again.
Building your own audio gear (certainly speakers) for pretty much anyone here is very doable.
And we have found a VERY inexpensive hobby in video game cabinets.
What's that watermelon doing there?

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2021, 11:04:58 am »
I just use a pair of plastic Amstrads and be done with it.

Drum's quite good. Base non existent. As for the words.....

But they fill the air with noise. Drowns out the wife.

yotsuya

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Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2021, 03:16:49 pm »
Enh, if I’m listening to music on headphones, it’s because I’m doing yard word or at my desk in a physical office. For casual music listening, it’s speakers all the way.

I just picked up a Denon receiver and Klipisch speakers for my home office. Paired with a U-Turn Oribt turntable, Echo Link, and Bluetooth from my Mac Mini, and I have all the music-listenin’ setup I need. I don’t need my balls to shake or to look out the window every 5 minutes to see if it’s raining to enjoy my tunes. :)


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2021, 03:17:50 pm »
A rounded ‘goto’ figure is fine for audio gear. Prices vary from really cheap stuff to many thousands, the guy was probably just being modest. Mike A’s sarcasm about audiophiles is not without some truth.  Some people have more dollars than sense and will let salespeople talk them into buying all kinds of crap.  Over-priced cables is one really good example.  The “blind test” in which a group of audiophiles are asked to judge different cable types from cheap electrical cable to very expensive ‘audio grade’ cable on the same pair of speakers, waffling on about subtle nuances in the differences between each only to be told it was the same cheap cable all along…  In the era of digital audio overpriced cables are an even bigger joke.

When I got into audio as a hobby years ago I discovered I could build kit versions of quality speakers offered by manufactures for much cheaper than the shelf price.  I’ve never looked back.

This is an 'arcadephile' forum not an audiophile forum.  You guys could get all steamed up about control panel ergonomics and the merits of leaf switches over cherries to the nth degree because it’s your (my) passion. Thankfully, in general, it’s a much cheaper hobby than high-end audio.

I worked with a guy a whose passion was high-end cars and motor racing.  Those rounded off sticky figures you were  quoting pbj?  Don’t even apply to that guy. Each to their own…
I’d love to try and make my own pair of speakers one day, that sounds like fun.


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RandyT

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2021, 01:23:35 pm »
I don’t need my balls to shake...

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it  :lol

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2021, 04:20:35 am »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...

 In that regard... then you must be taking about a "Bass-Head" type of experience.

 While I do enjoy some thumpy music as well..  I tend to prefer actual Musical music.. rather than just
constant droning thumping.

 Most of what I posted, is about Musical accuracy and clarity... that a generic sub 100$ (or overpriced gaming headphone)
cant replicate.   Im taking having that amazing 3D soundstage... that sounds like you are listening to a room with speaker
playing... Not as if you are hearing headphones playing music "Inside" of your head.

 A lot of people do not know how different the experience is,  and that its very much affordable.

 And as Ive said... new consumer speakers, under then 50k mark... are unlikely able to compete with
the actual dynamic clarity of an Audiophile grade headphone.   Again, this is due to physics scale.

 I mentioned before... for example... that in many songs that Ive heard millions of times in the past,
both on my Techniques (and other) house speakers... as well as lower quality headphones,  I was unable
to make out certain Lyrics that the singer was singing.   However, with Audiophile grade headphone...
and or the Amazing EPI speakers I mentioned..  I was able to actually hear and fully understand
what they were saying.   

 Why?   Because the drivers are that much better at delivering a distortion free image of the music.
Even when multiple instruments and vocals are all going at the same time... Audiophile grade drivers
can keep the separations, and keep things from bleeding into each other.. causing distortions.
(Such as thicker bass, distorting the high end clarity)

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2021, 12:49:25 pm »
Recordings sound better when played through higher quality speakers?

Bro, my mind is blown.

I aspire to be involved in the classic gaming community.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2021, 04:23:09 pm »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...

 In that regard... then you must be taking about a "Bass-Head" type of experience.

 While I do enjoy some thumpy music as well..  I tend to prefer actual Musical music.. rather than just
constant droning thumping.

 Most of what I posted, is about Musical accuracy and clarity... that a generic sub 100$ (or overpriced gaming headphone)
cant replicate.   Im taking having that amazing 3D soundstage... that sounds like you are listening to a room with speaker
playing... Not as if you are hearing headphones playing music "Inside" of your head.

 A lot of people do not know how different the experience is,  and that its very much affordable.

 And as Ive said... new consumer speakers, under then 50k mark... are unlikely able to compete with
the actual dynamic clarity of an Audiophile grade headphone.   Again, this is due to physics scale.

 I mentioned before... for example... that in many songs that Ive heard millions of times in the past,
both on my Techniques (and other) house speakers... as well as lower quality headphones,  I was unable
to make out certain Lyrics that the singer was singing.   However, with Audiophile grade headphone...
and or the Amazing EPI speakers I mentioned..  I was able to actually hear and fully understand
what they were saying.   

 Why?   Because the drivers are that much better at delivering a distortion free image of the music.
Even when multiple instruments and vocals are all going at the same time... Audiophile grade drivers
can keep the separations, and keep things from bleeding into each other.. causing distortions.
(Such as thicker bass, distorting the high end clarity)

Just stop.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2021, 06:06:42 pm »
There's an audiophile where I work. He cracks me up with his gold plated fuses and 'specially selected' mains power sockets. As for his £300 power lead that tops it all. His 1 meter power lead must make such an improvement when connected between his stereo and the 200 miles of overhead cable.

If you want a real laugh google Russ Andrews.

And has anybody seen the bags of carefully selected pebbles to cable-tie to your interconnecting cables? These things are priceless.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2021, 08:13:40 pm »
Again, xiaou2 is advocating for $500 products here which are obtainable, but that being said… I frequently wonder if some of the audiophile people are “in on it” much like I suspect half the flat earth people are.  Is the goal to see how absurd you can be and score points when others believe you?  How many people actually buy this stuff?  Maybe I missed my calling.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2021, 08:28:27 am »
You non-believers need to see this...

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

and

https://www.russandrews.com/ultrafuse-13a-single/


Read the reviews. Priceless.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2021, 12:47:03 pm »
So the best part about those magic rocks is that they’re into a plastic bag and scotch taped to the cables.  That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about.  Surely this is a send up?



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Mike A

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2021, 12:54:57 pm »
It is noise reduction tape.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2021, 09:01:22 pm »
Again, xiaou2 is advocating for $500 products here which are obtainable, but that being said… I frequently wonder if some of the audiophile people are “in on it” much like I suspect half the flat earth people are.  Is the goal to see how absurd you can be and score points when others believe you?  How many people actually buy this stuff?  Maybe I missed my calling.

FWIW, there are legitimate products designed to solve issues re: inference and the like. I spent a decade battling ground loop interference in my studio setup before finally getting a ground loop isolator. Completely solved the issues and I wish I'd done that much sooner.

On the flipside, there is a lot of snake oil out there. Unless someone has a legit issue with audio interference, spending money on fancy devices or cabling is a waste.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 09:29:47 pm by shponglefan »

RandyT

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2021, 11:05:25 am »
On the flipside, there is a lot of snake oil out there.

 :soapbox:

The fact that there is so much "snake oil" out there, and that people actually purchase it and think something has changed when they start using it, is demonstrative of how ludicrous all of this really is.  Sound is just electronics and physics.  Stray away from either of those, and one enters the realm of self-delusion, which is almost entirely the result of being poorly educated in either or both of those fields.  This wouldn't be so bad were it not for the seemingly incessant need for most of them to evangelize for useless (or at least overpriced), items of highly questionable value, as though to attempt to justify their shrinking bank accounts as a result of buying it, thereby perpetuating this stupidity. 

An "audiophile" and his money are soon parted.

Caveat: This is not the same as actually identifying and fixing a problem, like noise, hum, distortion, etc...  But you don't need to take out a second mortgage to do these simple things and unless the gear was poorly installed, or of very low quality, those types of issues won't be present anyway.  The people who designed the gear know far more than 99.9% of those who purchase it.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2021, 04:02:13 pm »
This cannot be snake oil.... surely?

This review of "Brilliant Pebbles" sounds convincing enough...

"By the way, I just placed additional Large BPs in your recommended locations in front and to the outside of each speaker -- these locations created startling three dimensional and solid images and revealed harmonic overtones, providing an even more impressive sense of reality and emotional connection to performers, especially singers. The benefits of these new locations are so much more noticeable and intense as to be quite unbelievable, considering the previous benefits of the Clever Little Clock and the other BPs of various sizes."

I'm quite tempted to pop out to the garden and raid the wife's flower pots and freezer bags and see if I can achieve an emotional connection with my Amstrad.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 04:04:34 pm by Ropi Jo »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2021, 08:51:51 pm »
Lol.

For anyone who is interested:
Check out Ethan Winer's null tester.  He is an audio engineer with decades of experience building studio equipment.

All the null tester does is flip the polarity of one lead and then combine signals.
Everything EXCEPT the difference in the cables is cancelled out.
So if you attach a cheap cable and expensive cable, the output is everything that is different in the signal.   ....only there never is a difference anywhere near big enough for a human to hear by any stretch of the imagination.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2021, 09:36:10 am »
Check out Ethan Winer's null tester.  He is an audio engineer with decades of experience building studio equipment.

Thanks for mentioning Ethan Winer's name.  I was unaware of him.  What a breath of fresh air he is in the vacuum of "audiophile" space.  To fully realize how good we have it with audio today as opposed to 40 years ago, you had to have lived and worked with it throughout that time. This man obviously has.

*edit* and he's a pinball fan  :lol



« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 10:57:19 am by RandyT »