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| Question about subwoofer isolation. |
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| Howard_Casto:
--- Quote from: RandyT on August 14, 2021, 10:41:20 am --- --- Quote from: Howard_Casto on August 13, 2021, 09:05:54 pm ---I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population. --- End quote --- I think you are looking at the situation sort of funny. Computers are and always have been tools. There have always been those who have needed to be able to use those tools in more than one location. Thanks to higher accessibility, and probably to a large part "American Excess", laptops have been sought out over desktops by many who do not need them, and either willingly or unwittingly make many sacrifices as a result. You wouldn't try to cut your winter's wood with a cordless electric chainsaw, but I see a lot of folks who buy lower-end laptops expecting to do similarly out of character things with them. When that realization hits and/or the device develops an issue, the laptop either gets shelved and seldom used, or it gets landfilled. Usually the latter, because the cost is usually too high to make it worth repairing/upgrading them even if possible to do so. But all of that aside, a CD isn't a tool, it's a medium. It's the blade on the saw, and we are really talking about the saw. The fact that HF has helped to make decent quality tools more accessible to the masses has little to no bearing on the future viability of the tools which are used for real production. It just means that more people are likely to purchase those tools, when they may not have were this not the case. It also means that a fair percentage of those same people will realize that their needs aren't being met by those less-capable (and sometimes more costly in the long-run) tools and will move toward something more suited to the work they are doing. If there is a budget involved and portability isn't part of that criteria, it will be the big metal box. Here's a good article on the subject. Be sure to read to the end. --- End quote --- An with respect I think you are assuming guys like us represent the average computer usage of the population when we don't. 99.9% of the non-gamers/streamers out there just use their pc for solitaire, browsing the web, and occasionally opening an office document. So for average usage (ie not us) even a chrome book is sufficient. Like Osirus pointed out, this isn't the early 2000s.... a low end pc will last teh average consumer a long assed time and when they "upgrade" to a chromebook, laptop or whatever and the 20 year old apps they are still using run fine they won't see the need for a desktop. |
| fallacy:
I have never used a PC speaker system, ever since 98 I have always had a dedicated receiver hooked up to my PC. right now I have a digital optical audio cable hooked from my PC to a DAC; if you do not know what a DAC is it is pretty much an external sound card, it converts you audio from Digital to Analogue, you want to make sure this conversion is done right otherwise you will have a lower quality sound coming out. The Analogue sound then goes into my Denon Receiver which powers 2 Bookshelf Speakers on my desk and 2 more energy satellite speakers mounted on my back wall along with a 300 watt sub. I think the big problem is with neighbors or people you live with a lot of people can never get the full use out of these kind of systems so the focus becomes headphone and other isolating audio solutions. |
| Mike A:
There is always somebody who totally over nerds their audio. ::) |
| Xiaou2:
Been there, done almost all of that (never really got into the headphones thing.) - If you have even half decent hearing... I highly suggest getting a Sennheiser headphone, anything model HD500 or above. The entry is at least $100 for good sound... and about +$250 for sound so crystal and so 3D... that will easily trounce speakers costing more than $100,000. The ones I had, fooled in into thinking my entire Surround sound system was on. 4 channel headphones tend to be a gimmick, that doesnt work out well, due to the low quality drivers in them.. and the lack of spatial differentials, within such a small area. A high quality headphone, can reproduce about 50% more of the sound spectrum... and they maintain the originally recorded spatial 3D depth... where as inferior headphones and speakers tend to distort this, and lose most of the actual 3D depth. This is why high level competitive FPS players tend use brands like Sennheiser... because they can tell approximately where an enemy is, in 3d space. Instantly, and with great accuracy. For Music.. you get to hear things in the music that used to be mildly distorted, and you also gain even more 3D depth, that you also have never experienced before. (Such as being able to point out, within a room... exactly where the bass player was standing) For Movies... you get all of the above... in a more private situation... such as when someone else is using your projector.. or when you have to keep it more quiet.. due to others sleeping. Tracker/MOD music was the first thing on computers worthy of piping through a decent audio system. Still have my 64s and Amigas and have been using PCs since color and sound were optional features. Well, some Mods are nice.. but there are a lot of them that are merely just low quality "Samples". Personally, I tend to prefer listening to actual FM Synths. Anything from the original c64 sid.. to the Sega Genesis (Thunderforce II, Target Earth), to actual people playing things on the Yamaha DX-7, DX-7 IID, etc. (Similar to the game sounds in Marble Madness) As well as monkeying around with these FM Synth engines, in keyboard synth emulators. Most Arcade games operate with a built in FM Synth chip... which is why they sound so damn Glorious. I really despised the SNES using a sample based audio engine, rather than a dedicated synth chip. The sounds and music were so much more generic and flat, as a result. While you Can sample synths for it.. the problem then becomes file-sizes. And since there was limited space on these carts... the audio quality tended to take a huge hit, as a result. Since synths are driven by algorithms, the filesizes were very small... and they produce a flawless sound quality.. that is breath-taking. Only problem is... programming an FM Synth was a nightmare for anyone other than a highly dedicated sound engineer + experimenter. And of course, there is also the more modern game audio, such as the bumpin soundtracks from Ridge Racer (PS1). I also prefer to run my MP3, and Flac audio files, into my stereo. Its easier to set up a nice playlist, and let it go. I sometimes play CDs directly from the PC... but Im trying to Rip them all to Flac files. Never owned a full-surround "PC" speaker system. When I went to surround on the PC, it was a 5.1 system, albeit a cheaper one, intended for HT and of course, an appropriate SB card which could feed it the signals to do it. I'm sure that there were/are good "PC" surround systems, but the value usually isn't there. Thats exactly what I recommend. You simply output the analog stereo out.. to a used surround sound amp.. which you can often find at a thrift shop for less than $30. A soundblaster card has far superior audio to onboard audio, of course. While my amp doesnt have Digital THX... the basic surround sound method it uses, still seems to work fine, when playing THX Digital BluRay movies though it (I use a dedicated blu-ray player, rather than a PC bluray drive) The only dedicated PC surround system I heard that was "OK", was at a friends house. It was a white 4.1 set, by Cambrige Soundworks. The small speakers were pretty clear... but that said... it was still underpowered, and missing a lot of the deeper audio spectrum. I have no idea what he paid for it... but it probably cost him as much as my 300? watt Pioneer receiver. The biggest problem with the modern PC based systems.. besides the poor quality speakers... and high prices.. is that the Amp electronics tend to fail in less than a 3yr period. The lead-free soldier, and low quality components used... cause them to fail quickly. I see these show up in the thrift stores very often... and the amps are always dead. Heck, thats the problem with everything made today. Buy a $1000 LCD tv, and you will be lucky if it makes it to the 2yr mark... if its not DOA, right out of the box. I thought about trying to pickup a new THX surround receiver.. but after I saw the countless failures in the reviews... I realized I was better off not risking the loss of money. But all of this is academic. Sound is very subjective, as no two individuals possess exactly the same receptor wetware. I've heard "audiophile" systems which sound like utter crap to me, especially when the cost is considered. They are usually tailored to the specific application and environment of interest to the specific user, which means that they tend to fall on their face when venturing too far outside of those parameters. The biggest issue, is that many people have a poor hearing spectrum / range. If you dont hear midrange frequencies well... then you will likely not enjoy a typical speakers output. You will seek speakers that have seriously cranked midrange levels. To others... your speakers will be PAINFUL to their ears... as the midrange will be overbearing and harsh. But to you... it will be "Just right". Now.. heres the thing... The speakers you were listening too... may have been capable of better sound... BUT... the guy may have jacked the midrange EQ way the hell up, for example. I had one guy listen to my Sennheiser headphones.. and he was so blown away, that he decided to order a pair of Audiophile grade headphones. Somehow, he ended up getting a different brand instead. This brand clamed to be able to hit even more of a frequency range than my headphones. But when I listened to them... the midrange was so harsh and overbearing , that I simply could not stand them. I tried to use my audio players EQ settings... but the headphones were simply too far tuned this way... to be able to reduce the midrange to a reasonable level at all. He loved them... but as I learned.. he did in fact have pretty bad hearing issues, so it made sense. Its not all about Frequency Range figures either. Its also about THD (distortion levels, at high volume levels). Then you have Fake-Bass (Bass Ports)... which technically can hit a much lower frequency level... BUT... it sounds artificial, and awful. Then you have things like Horn Tweeters... which distort the 3D audio image. And of course, you now have modern ECO speakers.. that try to fool the customer, that four 5" drivers.. can somehow match the bass levels of a single high quality +8" woofer. Even with one of their fake Subs (a woofer, acting as a sub).. it wont even come close to the musical range of that +8" woofered speaker. But anyway... the point being... is that if the speaker is made properly... with you setting your EQ settings tailored to your ears... you Should be able to get a decent sound out of it. However... If your hearing is extremely limited in certain ranges... you would have to drastically alter your drivers... to make up for the things you do not hear well... as even heavy EQ, may not be enough. The issue with this... is that if other peoples ears are too far apart in ranges... then they might be driven away by your chosen sound profile. With audio, the "jack of all trades, master of none" approach is where I put my money. If it sounds good to you, turn it up until it doesn't and if it's still not loud enough before you get to that point, upgrade until it is. Anything beyond that is usually just expensive fluff This does not make any sense, in terms of how Audio actually works. A speaker that is only 15 watts, might be clear and powerful enough for an arcade machine... but its not going to be able to fill an entire room with powerful, clean, accurate, sound. A modern cheap-o-speaker: The Techniques 200 watt speakers might be fairly LOUD... but their ported design, and low quality woofers... present a sound quality that is full of distortions. (low magnet strengths = poor cone control = lots of distortions) An Audiophile level speaker.. can be both fairly Loud, and still remain Flawless... having like only .01% of distortions in its reproductions, at its LOUDEST volume potentials. Or course, if you are in a band... and trying to play at a large, Noisy, Club.. you are going to choose "Pro-Audio Speakers". These are not anywhere near as accurate as audiophile speakers, but they tend to have anywhere from 300 to +800 watts capability. These are used in Movie Theaters, Outdoor Rock Concerts...etc. The main function is loudness, powerful chest thumping bass, and a wide high-frequency audio spread. What Ive also learned from messing with speakers, and learning their component and design attributes... is that you cant realistically "Upgrade" a speaker. When I added super-tweeters to my techniques... I didnt realize that I was altering the Ohm resistance of the speakers. (which could have blown a lesser quality Amp, quickly) You cant add a more powerful sealed woofer in their cabinet... because that cabinet it designed to be ported. Its also designed to a specific inner air volume. Also, the cabinets cheap and thin wood... allow for distortions. You would have to put internal braces in the speaker, and thicken the walls internally, at minimal... for a decent woofer upgrade to even be worth it. At that point, you might as well build a new box... and scrap the crappy speakers completely. And if you were merely looking for raw power... such as a club speaker... the box isnt big enough, strong enough, nor is the internal wiring the correct gauges. The weak electronic crossovers would also likely Fry, as the are not designed for that much power. Finally... in reference to the above "Pro-Audio Speakers" ...I will say that one of my friends got a really massive pair of speakers. I think they were Cerwin Vegas. Two 12 or 15" woofers, and I believe a mid and a horn tweeter. I think they were like 800 watts each. They were powerful, thumpin, and clear. When he cranked them to a DVD of Iron Man... it literally sounded like you were in a war-zone... and I wonder if the neighbor didnt freak out as a result. That said... they were not audiophile speakers. They lacked musicality. The high frequencies were Harsh, and the 3d Soundstage was nearly non-existent, even at decent volume levels... and good speaker placement. Again, these are Party speakers... good for filling the room up, but not for buttery smooth, super accurate, ear-gasming 3D spatial audio. While there are a lot of Audiophile scams, and self-proclaimed audiophiles that have garbage setups... What I can tell you, is that once you hear what music is Supposed to sound like.. you can Never go back to generic speakers / headphones, ever again. Its literally like the difference of watching a 15" Black and White tv... compared to an Imax 3D theatre film. Also, there is no greater upgrade to your quality of life, than a high quality audio system. I remember watching Terminator 2, on my 13"? commodore amiga monitor... from my laserdisc. The image may have been small, and nowhere near the quality of modern bluray image in 4k... but what made the experience magical, was my surround sound system. Hearing CD quality audio, like crunch of the Skull being stepped on by a terminator... or the lasers blast from front and back... all around the room... was simply incredible. And that was when I only had mediocre speakers. I always suggest staring with an Audiophile level headphone, because finding an affordable audiophile speaker set, can be a lot more challenging, and the results of a speaker cant match the accuracy of a headphones smaller, lighter, drivers. |
| Xiaou2:
--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on August 14, 2021, 11:18:59 pm --- --- Quote from: RandyT on August 14, 2021, 10:41:20 am --- --- Quote from: Howard_Casto on August 13, 2021, 09:05:54 pm ---I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population. --- End quote --- I think you are looking at the situation sort of funny. Computers are and always have been tools. There have always been those who have needed to be able to use those tools in more than one location. Thanks to higher accessibility, and probably to a large part "American Excess", laptops have been sought out over desktops by many who do not need them, and either willingly or unwittingly make many sacrifices as a result. You wouldn't try to cut your winter's wood with a cordless electric chainsaw, but I see a lot of folks who buy lower-end laptops expecting to do similarly out of character things with them. When that realization hits and/or the device develops an issue, the laptop either gets shelved and seldom used, or it gets landfilled. Usually the latter, because the cost is usually too high to make it worth repairing/upgrading them even if possible to do so. But all of that aside, a CD isn't a tool, it's a medium. It's the blade on the saw, and we are really talking about the saw. The fact that HF has helped to make decent quality tools more accessible to the masses has little to no bearing on the future viability of the tools which are used for real production. It just means that more people are likely to purchase those tools, when they may not have were this not the case. It also means that a fair percentage of those same people will realize that their needs aren't being met by those less-capable (and sometimes more costly in the long-run) tools and will move toward something more suited to the work they are doing. If there is a budget involved and portability isn't part of that criteria, it will be the big metal box. Here's a good article on the subject. Be sure to read to the end. --- End quote --- An with respect I think you are assuming guys like us represent the average computer usage of the population when we don't. 99.9% of the non-gamers/streamers out there just use their pc for solitaire, browsing the web, and occasionally opening an office document. So for average usage (ie not us) even a chrome book is sufficient. Like Osirus pointed out, this isn't the early 2000s.... a low end pc will last teh average consumer a long assed time and when they "upgrade" to a chromebook, laptop or whatever and the 20 year old apps they are still using run fine they won't see the need for a desktop. --- End quote --- This is a bunch of Tripe. 99% of NON GAMERS? What kind of laughable argument is that?! Most anyone under 40, is playing a bunch of games on their PCs. Anything from mame, to RPGs, to various 2D games on Steam, to big name 3D titles... as well as VR. The recent Graphics card shortages, are not merely because of supply problems, and crypto miners... Its because public demand has risen by multiples. Thats what happens, when more and more youth, get into gaming... and the existing gamers, are still into gaming (upgrades). The demands will keep climbing. Also... countless artists in fact, DO use PCs (myself included). For 3d modeling, photoshop work, illustration, and freehand drawing... using a wacom based drawing tablet. Realize that most artists are POOR... and cant afford the high price point of Apple Products and Apple $oftware. You can easily find tons of high quality software for the PC... for FREE, Cheap, or in desperate measures: Sailing the Seas... Arrrrrr FYI - Android is basically useless for many artists. The devices are way too underpowered... and many of the more advanced programs will Lag badly when you try to draw something with them. Especially if the drawing gets too detailed / large in filesize... and or the specific tools are also eating too much of the processor up. Even the Apple Pro tablets were lagging in the former generation.. that I tested. PC VR is going to take off even more dramatically, once prices drop.. and the tech gets more robust. While there are Stand-Alone VR units.. they are far too under-powered, for the kind of games and experiences that a high powered gaming PC can achieve. In fact, even a mid-spec PC could probably Trounce these stand-alone units. While Laptops and tablets have been gaining more power than they used to have... they still do not compare with the power of even a low-spec PC. The majority of Laptops (affordable), are built for saving power. They are often not that fast, have small amounts of ram, and do not have much in terms of upgradability, either. They are also less reliable than they used to be, due to the lead-free soldier. Also.. many companies have tried to get the masses to buy into streaming-games from custom servers... such as "Stadia". They are failures... because people do not have fast enough internet bandwidth, to be able to have a nearly lag-free experience. While a casual player that plays a slow exploring type of game... might be fine with it... the majority of gamers, wont stand for losing.. due to lag issues. With the current state of the US, and how slow infrastructure rolls out... there wont be an acceptable mass internet speed... for like two more decades. And by that time... its possible that the speeds that were attained, will be too slow for the new graphical / intensity demands. ( I cant even get a 1080p stream to work, with my current connection) Now... as chip manufacturers increase CPU power, and start putting more powerful graphics processing directly into the CPU... things may start to shift towards laptops and tablets... for a larger portion of personal usage. The Elite "Theorists", are way off the mark, in terms of realistic time-frames, and specs. They are Clueless. |
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