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Author Topic: Question about subwoofer isolation.  (Read 21249 times)

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Howard_Casto

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Question about subwoofer isolation.
« on: July 31, 2021, 02:29:34 am »
So After 6 months of looking I've determined that the computer desk I want just doesn't exist so I'm buying a rather plain one and I'll modify/fortify as needed.   

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08QJFGSR8?ref=ppx_pt2_dt_b_prod_image

But anyway, when I move my devices over to this open plan desk I was wondering about subwoofer isolation.  I read an article that mentioned ideally your sub should be elevated an isolated via some kind of deadener, like a wooden box filled with sand.   I've had the same lansing 2.1 speaker set on my computer for probably 20 years.  It's not super powerful but it gets plenty loud and the sound is clear with a good range.   Is this something I really need to worry about?  Right now my sub is sitting on the bottom shelf of my desk and it sounds fine but then again it is right up against my UPS which has those old school lead acid batteries that weigh a ton, so maybe that is absorbing the sound somewhat.

bobbyb13

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2021, 05:02:32 am »
Whew...

Sound and water waves are second only to weather in being a great study in chaos theory.
I have a few audiophile friends who used to build mobile audio systems for Boston Acoustics for fun (and then for $$) and this is a rabbit hole if there ever was one Howard.
Things I recall from watching/helping them...

For an office desk/gaming station, and the size speaker we are talking about (4' or smaller I would imagine?) the environment INSIDE the box has more to do with how it sounds than what is around it (unless you want to get really crazy and spec out a recording studio for your gaming station room.)

If you can, pack the subwoofer box with fiberglass insulation to absorb any internal backwave contamination and minimize/eliminate any irritating buzzing noise to begin with.

If you are REALLY concerned about unwanted vibration then even a box of sand will still telegraph crap you don't want and would suck to deal with otherwise anyway.

At probably 3" to 4" it can't move enough air to make a real resonant mess very far from it (and bass sound waves take distances measured in feet to form fully) so if you really want to isolate it from shaking ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on the desk...?

Hang it from four pieces of string/twine/cord- with the woofer facing down.
Seriously.

Or second to that, sit it on the points of four nails if you can pull it off in your situation.
The string/harness method is probably easier to pull of and will probably work better anyway.

Of course all of this is REALLY excessive for what is probably a 3" woofer in a ported enclosure that is made of particle board to begin with (and something I have squandered valuable failing brain power on-)

My guess is the best one can do for a desk or cabinet setup is a 6" sub in a sealed box of 3/4" MDF which is sealed with fiberglass, fillet rope and epoxy, with the woofer glued down with 3m 3200 and then the box suspended with paracord.
Volume of box depends on your personal taste in tone and the recommendations of the woofer manufacturer and the box volume will also dictate what size amp you really need to drive the thing properly (sealed enclosures needing more power than ported ones...)

Something with that punch might irritate other people elsewhere in the house though-

And therefore I'll build it into one of my cabs if I can make the time to do so.
 >:D
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Mike A

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2021, 06:18:06 am »
If it sounds fine then it sounds fine.

BadMouth

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2021, 07:51:47 am »
For a small sub in a 2.1 computer speaker set, you would be much better served experimenting with location rather than worrying about isolation.

Isolating the sub from the floor is more about preventing extra resonances (noise from the vibrating floor or other things touching the vibrating floor).
Probably unnecessary, but if you want to go all out for such a small sub pick up a pack of cork coasters and put those under it.

This is coming from someone who applied damping material and tracked down every vibration in his base model work truck to eliminate resonances.  ;D

« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 07:56:36 am by BadMouth »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2021, 01:05:47 pm »
I figured you guys would know what to look for, thanks.   I'm hoping it'll still sound fine when it isn't crammed in behind a bunch of gear so I guess this is a what if scenario.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2021, 03:10:32 pm »
My neighbor commented to me at our post room that my sub woofer needed to be isolated, especially at 10pm.

bobbyb13

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2021, 12:51:05 am »
My neighbor commented to me at our post room that my sub woofer needed to be isolated, especially at 10pm.

 :laugh2:
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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2021, 09:53:15 pm »
I've got nothing to add other than if you set it on four nails, make it three. Then it will always be stable. More than three legs always means they have to be exactly the same length. Think about the last time you were at a cafe sitting at a four legged table.


ROUGHING UP THE SUSPECT SINCE 1981

Howard_Casto

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2021, 01:49:14 am »
Funny you should mention that..... the sub has always been on carpet so I never noticed, but one of the legs is ever so slightly shorter than the rest, giving it the slightest wobble I've ever seen.   Luckily they all screw in place, so I just unscrewed it a little.  Anyway, the new desk came in.  The tabletop is kind of "meh" quality, but I got one with metal legs so I can make a proper wooden top for it once lumber prices go back down.   It actually looks quite nice, but the top is very thin pressed wood so I know it won't last.  I just got it together this evening but I'll post some pics once I have everything in place with proper cable management and stuff. 

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2021, 06:36:56 pm »
If you get better speakers... you wont want a generic ported sub, muddying up the sound.

 I remember the time I went into a walmart, and heard this incredibly bassy music playing...
but unlike most systems... the bass was crystal clear, with no "Farty" artificial sounding bass.

 I thought it was a huge system... and when I got to it... it was a small Phillips boom box.
It had a technology called  "Woox"... which is basically a Passive Radiator.   The sounds it
made were Far superior to typical PC / Bookshelf speakers, with a Sub.

 That only fueled my passion for better audio.

 Then I got a pair of re-foamed EPI 100v speakers.   These things blew my mind.
Totally sealed, and only an 8" two way... they Trounced the sound quality that came out of my
12" 3 way 200 watt  Techniques floor speakers.

 I put them on top of my 12" speakers, and asked a friend to tell me which speakers were
playing.  The EPIs are about 1/3 rd smaller.   He pointed to the larger speakers.  He was
about 8ft away from them, sitting in front of them on the couch.

 The are not as loud as the Techs.. but the bass quality is Natural sounding.  No distorting farty sounds.
Its like eating the worst quality ice cream... where you keep eating buy are never satisfied.. .and then
you buy high quality ice cream... and its so good, that you only need a few spoonfuls, to feel happily
satisfied.   With the techs, you felt the need to increase the volume, to make up for the poor sound
quality.  With the EPIs, it was Ear Nirvana.

 Its not just that the EPI bass was so damn good... but that they use a special Inverted Tweeter.
This tweeter is pure Magic.  Most speakers produce a certain Sweet-Spot, that you have to be
centered within, for the best stereo effect.   A few feet in either direction away from it... and it
does not sound that good.

 However, the EPIs inverted tweeters (get the upgraded versions, that have the plastic bezels),
make a 3d sound-field, that almost makes the entire room, the sweet spot.  Its almost holographic,
in the way that it makes the sound as if its completely Live.  As if the band is playing in your room,
and you could virtually point to where each instrument is within the room.

 The other magical thing about them, was the clarity and lack of distortion, even at their highest
volume levels.  You know those songs where you cant make out what lyric the singer is singing?
Well, with these speakers... you actually can hear these details!  For the first time in like 15yrs..
I was hearing lyrics, that I never had actually understood before.  It was amazing.

 My former friend once was talking up a storm about these $3000 speakers... and I pretty much
shrugged him off.. as I neither could afford such speakers... and because most of these modern
speakers are inferior ECO trash.   He insisted I check them out at the local High-Fi shop.

 Sure enough, they had a huge array of speakers, with his pick being the most expensive, at
a little over 3K for the pair.   Even WITH the like 1000$ sub that was also being used.. they
sounded like low quality garbage.   It only made sense... as you cant have drivers that were
that small... able to produce high dynamic sound.  The bass was weak and artificial.. and the
upper range was highly directional, with no real 3d soundstage.  Basically, the $100 EPIs totally
destroyed them, in every way possible.  Not by a little.  By a Landslide.


 The first time I heard the EPIs was at a friends Arcade / Slotcar track.  He was playing
Earth Wind and Fire (Disco), which is extremely dynamic music.  The sound was
everywhere... so crisp, clean, bassy, and detailed.  I tried to find these speakers for about
15 min... and still was not able to find them!  My hearing is very good... so with normal
speakers, Id easily find where they were located.   I finally broke down and asked him,
what speakers were they, and where the hell were they?!

 He pointed to the front store glass window.  They were about 5ft apart.  One was vertical, slightly
behind a Race-Drivin arcade machine.  The other, was laying on its side, with a mountain of
magazines on top of it... and I think there was some other things in front of it as well.

 Basically, it was the worst speaker placement in the world... and yet, the entire shop was
like a live concert.  It completely blew all the speakers Ive owned, and heard, out of the water.
I began my search, and eventually found a dude selling them refoamed on craigslists.

 Its easily one of the Best purchases Ive made in my entire Life.

 I drive them with an old Pioneer surround sound amp, that I purchased with a Laserdisc player, when
I was 17 yrs old.  Still works like a champ.

 
 At one time I did own a pair of Phillips woox speakers as well.  I liked the extra bass response
in some things... but, they were no real match for the EPIs in total comparison.  The foam surrounds
on the woox passives rotted... and so I ended up leaving them behind when I had to move.


 Todays ECO based speakers, tend to use very small woofer drivers.. and try to make up for the
lack of mid-bass and low-bass, with a ported sub.  The port allows for more volume... but at
the expense of clean undistorted bass.  At low volumes, its not that bad.. but at medium
levels.. that artificial sounding woof... grates at you.  Especially once you hear what the music
is supposed to sound like.  Then its pure Torture.


 To answer specifically... that small fake-sub,  is highly directional... and works more on the
proximity to the person... rather than anything else.

 A real sub, could be placed virtually anywhere in the room, and produce a very non-directional
"effect".   Of course, that means ticking off your neighbors / housemates, with the volume
and vibration produced.

 If you want to feel the bass, and respect the neighbors, get a pair of Bass Shaker Transducers.
I put two under my office chair for a test.  On max setting (15 watts each I believe), the
effect was so powerful, that I could not view the image in my monitor properly... because my
body / eyes were bouncing too strongly.  I backed it off a bit, and all was good.  I was using
the game Gyruss to test this.  In Gyruss.. when you fire.. .the bullet sound get bassier the
deeper it goes into the screen.  The rumble effect is quite awesome.


 FYI - Being the Tinkerer that I am... I have tried in the past, to Modify speakers... such as trying to
seal my ported Techniques speakers.  At the time, I didnt realize that would never work properly,
because the woofers in the techs, are too weak to be able to deal with a sealed enclosures air
pressure levels.   Sealed box woofers, have much higher powered magnets, and stronger coils.
This takes more power to move them.. but that also means higher levels of speaker control and
accuracy.  For example, to be able to stop the speaker movement faster... or to accelerate it
much faster.

 Id also previously tried putting in super tweeters in the techs... and while it seemed to
help a little, it was really a waste of time and money.  Two crappy tweeters, cant defeat
a single superior made tweeter.

 All in all, it was a fun time, and I learned a lot about speaker designs and their inner workings.

 If you cant afford / find such a speaker... I recommend at minimal... getting a pair of
Sennheiser headphones.  Anything model HD 500 or above.  The clarity and soundstage that
many of these produce, will rival house speakers that cost well over 50k.

 Depending on the model chosen, you may need a decent amp to drive them well.
I just use my old amp.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2021, 09:54:18 pm »
Well I mean I'm no audiophile but it sounds really good.   it actually sounds better now that my speakers are spread out a bit and the subwoofer doesn't have a metric ton of stuff in front of it.   Normally pc speakers are kind of crap but I just stumbled into this one and about 20 years after the fact I still have no complaint.   I seem to remember that they were from sam's and  had a fairly high price tag but I got them on clearance.   I guess I just lucked into a  good set. 

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2021, 02:55:34 am »
If you like how they sound then just run 'em til they blow up!
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2021, 08:33:15 am »
If you like how they sound then just run 'em til they blow up!

I agree.  I ran a similar PC set for close to 20 years because the newer stuff went down in quality.  They probably still work and sound fine.  The only reason they got replaced was when I got hooked on FPS games, I started wanting some of that fancy new (at the time) surround sound.  :)

Just about anything decent is all that's needed for a PC, unless the PC is a central part of your main entertainment system or you use it for media production. 

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2021, 04:00:21 pm »
Altec was known for making some decent pc speakers. Good clean highs.

 Not super stellar.. but good overall sound for what they were.

If you like how they sound then just run 'em til they blow up!

I agree.  I ran a similar PC set for close to 20 years because the newer stuff went down in quality.  They probably still work and sound fine.  The only reason they got replaced was when I got hooked on FPS games, I started wanting some of that fancy new (at the time) surround sound.  :)

Just about anything decent is all that's needed for a PC, unless the PC is a central part of your main entertainment system or you use it for media production. 

 I started out by hooking a small stereo boom box to my Sega Genesis.
 The only PC I had was my grandfathers hand-me-down C64... until I was much older.

 At 17, I had bought that Pioneer Receiver, and lucked out in finding some amazing old
12" 3way speakers that a guy refoamed.  I wish I remembered the company/model.

 I had also bought an Amiga 500, and I hooked that, and my Genesis up to it.

 Terminator 2, was my first Laserdisc purchase.  I piped the video into the Amiga's
monitor.  The picture was much clearer than a typical TVs composite input.  Hearing
the opening Terminator war, blasting laser-guns fire everywhere in surround sound... was epic.
Especially at that time... where VHS low-fi was the standard for many years to follow.

 I didnt actually get a windows based PC, until I found out about Emulation
from a friend at work.  My first PC was an AMD 233mhz.   Of course, it was also
hooked up to my Pioneer amp.

 I never understood why anyone would want inferior tiny PC speakers, that I saw
being sold.  I never needed them, because I had my amp + full house speakers...
which sounded far superior.

 I listen to all of my music, movies, and games, on my PCs output to the amp.
The PC is where I spend the most time... so why would I want inferior sound on it?

 And when I saw people paying +$300 for a dedicated PC surround system, with those
tiny inferior eco speakers?  I chuckled.

 It makes no sense.  You can get a superior used +150 watt Amp at a thrift shop for
under $30.  You can find used bookshelf or house speakers, that are far more powerful,
and far more accurate / detailed.. for under $100,  on craigslist.

 Such a setup will be 1000x more enjoyable to your everyday experiences on the PC.
It will blow the pants off of those tiny low-quality PC speakers.  And, it will likely last
you several decades without ANY issues at all.

(unless you get a more modern amps, that uses non-lead based soldier... which have
a very high failure rate.  Those rarely make it to the used market anyways, because they end
up failing long before that point)


 I will say this... That as good as my surround sound system was initially... once I bought a
pair of  Sennheiser HD 500  headphones...  I was blown away.   I put them on at like 2am
in the morning, and popped a DVD into my PC.  When the film started to play... it was
very loud... and I realized that I must have left my floor speakers on.  I dove for the
speaker toggle, while ripping off my headphones... only to realize, that none of my
4 Techniques 3way speakers were "ON" !!

 These headphones were so clear and dynamic, and created such an incredible
3d Soundstage... that it completely fooled me into thinking my entire surround system
was still on!  Thats no small task.. as my hearing sensitivity is extremely high. For
example, I could hear when the CRT TV was on downstairs, even if I was a good
25 ft away from it.  Id hear the high pitched whine it created.

 It was only then, that I became an actual "Audiophile", and started to go crazy
about finding better floor speakers.   Also, as good at the HD500 headphones
were... I ended up getting a higher end model Sennheiser headphone used...
that that was about 2x as clear as the original set.  Totally mind blowing.

(only problem, is that it revealed every flaw of a bad quality MP3, or low-quality
recording.  As such, Id sometimes switch between them, depending on what
I was listening to)

 The only reason I ever bought the higher priced Senns... is because I used to
destroy headphones in less than a few months time.  Often, the cable broke
internally.  The Audiophile level Senns, have removable replaceable cables.
They also offered other replaceable parts, such as a new set of foam pads, for
a mere $15.  That sold me on them, over a well known brand name that was
about 20$ cheaper.

 My original Senns lasted about 13 yrs, before I managed to snap the headband
at a critical joint.  That seriously impressive, considering I used to wear them
Everywhere.. and for like 8 to 12hrs a day.  They also made excellent ear muffs,
as they are over-the-ear, and extremely comfortable.  In fact, they are so light,
and so comfortable... you often forget that you have them on.  Unlike many
other headphones.. that cause pressure pinching and long term discomfort.

 Note, that Senns are not Bass-Head headphones.  They have bass, but the bass
is extremely accurate, rather than being artificially boosted / distorted.  These
shine best for 3d soundstage, such as for watching films, and playing games
that are critical in you hearing an ops relative position.. in 3d space.  Of course,
they are the best for music as well.. as there is so little distortion, that you
hear things that you never used to hear before... in the music that you have
listened to for decades.

 The HD 500 were bassier than the 590 I later got.  At first I was displeased
with the 590s, due to that lack of bass.  Eventually, I piped some very high
quality DVD audio, HD youtube vids, and Flac level recordings... and they produced
amazing low bass levels that 500 could not touch.  So, the issue was the actual
bad recordings.. not the headset.


 I can tell you one thing... that once you hear Audiophile quality sound output... you
can Never go back.   Its also one of the best purchases to improve the quality of
your life.   Being an Audiophile, does not mean you have to spend huge amounts of
money.  You can find a lot of high quality audio gear used, for fairly cheap prices.
You just have to do a little research into the gear, and its internals.

 You can often tell if a speaker is going to be decent.. by how heavy it is.  My EPIs
may be small... but they weigh about 2x as much at the much larger Techniques
(which I ended up leaving behind, as they were total garbage in comparison).

 The weight was not just from using thicker walled wood.. but also, from heavier
speaker magnets / drivers.  Also, I advise against Ported speakers, unless it at least
has a Passive radiator.  The rare exception Ive ran into, are wide open ports, rather than
Tube based ports.  The wider rectangle ports did not seem to have that farty sound effect.

 Make sure all drivers are the Originals. (Same size/angle Cone and Cone-Caps. Same colors)

 Check the surrounds for Foam Rot  /  cracks.   If so, you would need to get them re-foamed,
which can be done for less than $100 per driver.  Often re-sellers already refoam them before sale.

 Capacitors in the Crossovers.  Caps go bad after decades of time... changing in values.
Its often a good idea to replace them.  They are fairly cheap, and easy to replace.

 Always test the speakers, to make sure all drivers are working properly.

 Check the speaker box edges.  I bought a pair that ended up having some spitting at the corners,
due to moisture / water damages.  It wasnt that bad.. but just something to be aware of. I might
have to them, to make sure there is no air-leakage.

 Not all speakers are what they seem.  While certain older 70s speakers are on a whole other
level... there were also a lot of cheap crud, that may look decent externally.. but have
really poor quality output, due to inferior internal parts.

 The 80s was about the time when most speaker quality started to drop off drastically.
They often added more drivers to seemingly attract people... but overall, they are all low
quality drivers, and do not sound that good overall.  They also often have woofers that
blow way too easily.. so you have to be very careful how hard you push them.

 Im also not a huge fan of "Horn" speakers.  They work well for a night club... but the horn
shape seems to drastically distort the audios 3d spatial image.  Talk through a cone, and
you see that the sound of your voice changes.  Its similar to what happens with coned
tweeters.

 Domed midranges.  From my experience in hearing many speakers... The most luscious
midranges Ive heard so far, came from a Dome shaped midrange.  Most were between
2 to 3" in diameter (externally viewed).

 From what Ive heard described... Ribbon tweeters can produce some incredible sound
accuracy..  but, It seems to be very directional.  IE:  You have to sit Exactly in one particular
spot, to get the best effect.  They do not seem to spread the sound out as wide, as other
tweeter types.

 Woofter size:  From my experience, 8" woofers are typically the smallest woofers you would
want to have.  They typically can move faster and produce punchier bass than larger woofers.
Anything smaller, often cant produce as wide and deep of a bass response... unless its using
extreme box tricks, such as tuned ports, to make artificial bass sounds.

 The better the Woofer driver... the more bass it will produce.  For example, my techs 12"
woofers, cant produce bass lower nor as powerful, as my EPI 8" woofers.  Those coils
and stronger magnets, make for a far superior bass experince.

 That said... I do have a pair of Full sized Advent 10" bullnose speakers.  Advents are
strange, in that they use a 10" speaker in a 12" metal basket.  The bass response
they produce, shakes the house.  But, IMO.. its way too much for musical accuracy.

I only used them on things like movie effect.  Such as when watching  The Polar Express..
when the train comes in.  It literally felt like an actual train was rolling through the living
room.  They produce a level of bass and vibration, that are similar to a high powered
subwoofer.  Its quite insane, but again... not good for general music, IMO (way too exaggerated).

 (I do wonder, if replacing the caps would fix the exaggeration. Ive yet to open them up)


 Finally... I will say that I tried a specific sound card that had Digital Audio output.
Maybe its the age of my amp.. but I can tell you.. that Digital fiber OP, sounded 90% worse
than pure Analog.  The dynamic range was cut down Drastically... making the sound flat
and tinny.  I tinkered with it for a bit, and then reverted back to pure analog.

 Maybe digital works better via RCA connectors... And or, maybe with a newer amp.
But I seem to doubt it.  According to what I learned about these systems... is that they are
extremely limited, and lacking.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2021, 12:15:27 am »
.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 01:28:35 pm by Osirus23 »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2021, 09:45:19 am »
I listen to all of my music, movies, and games, on my PCs output to the amp.
The PC is where I spend the most time... so why would I want inferior sound on it?

 And when I saw people paying +$300 for a dedicated PC surround system, with those
tiny inferior eco speakers?  I chuckled.

...

 Finally... I will say that I tried a specific sound card that had Digital Audio output.
Maybe its the age of my amp.. but I can tell you.. that Digital fiber OP, sounded 90% worse
than pure Analog.  The dynamic range was cut down Drastically... making the sound flat
and tinny.  I tinkered with it for a bit, and then reverted back to pure analog.

 Maybe digital works better via RCA connectors... And or, maybe with a newer amp.
But I seem to doubt it.  According to what I learned about these systems... is that they are
extremely limited, and lacking.

Been there, done almost all of that (never really got into the headphones thing.)  Tracker/MOD music was the first thing on computers worthy of piping through a decent audio system.  Still have my 64s and Amigas and have been using PCs since color and sound were optional features.

Never owned a full-surround "PC" speaker system.  When I went to surround on the PC, it was a 5.1 system, albeit a cheaper one, intended for HT and of course, an appropriate SB card which could feed it the signals to do it.  I'm sure that there were/are good "PC" surround systems, but the value usually isn't there.

Audio quality is going to depend heavily on the circuitry in both the sound card and the amp.  Notice I didn't say "digital".  The audio from a PC exists in the digital realm, just like a CD.  It's not analog until the circuitry in the audio processor creates it for output on those jacks.  Unless you had a high-end sound card, the circuitry for doing this will usually be much better in a decent amplifier.  Remote processing also better isolates signals, by getting them away from the RF nightmare that is the typical PC box.  There are some bandwidth limitations with fiber-optic cables with anything over 5.1, but they are especially good for the aforementioned isolation.

But all of this is academic.  Sound is very subjective, as no two individuals possess exactly the same receptor wetware. I've heard "audiophile" systems which sound like utter crap to me, especially when the cost is considered.  They are usually tailored to the specific application and environment of interest to the specific user, which means that they tend to fall on their face when venturing too far outside of those parameters. 

With audio, the "jack of all trades, master of none" approach is where I put my money.  If it sounds good to you, turn it up until it doesn't and if it's still not loud enough before you get to that point, upgrade until it is.  Anything beyond that is usually just expensive fluff :)     
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 01:48:28 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2021, 02:00:06 pm »
I'm getting back in to PC audio after years of just having stereo speakers. Going to rearrange my setup to have 4 channel surround. I'll have my AVR do a phantom center channel using the 2 fronts.

It really feels like a dying niche which sucks. If you search for PC audio stuff now 95% of the stuff you'll find is headphones, headphones, headphones.

Well that's because desktops in general are becoming extinct for everything except streaming and streamers obviously use headphones so they don't have a nasty echo in their stream.   I like a big scary tower to keep the normies away from my pc personally.  I've got the tools to stream at this point but I lack the motivation.   I'm afraid it would make gaming too much like work.   

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2021, 08:47:52 pm »
I have Xonar DG/DGX cards in both my cab and desktop.  I could not get the sound I was after without them.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2021, 08:55:19 pm »


I'm getting back in to PC audio after years of just having stereo speakers. Going to rearrange my setup to have 4 channel surround.

Track down the original quadraphonic mix of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon.
It is one of the best sounding recordings I've ever heard.  I spent a lot of time trying to tune my systems to live up to hearing that album on an original quadraphonic system only to find out later that it was a completely different mix by a different engineer. Aside from the original quadrophonic vinyl, it was only released as part of some gigantic box set.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2021, 09:36:35 am »
.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 01:28:06 pm by Osirus23 »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2021, 12:42:57 pm »
I'm getting back in to PC audio after years of just having stereo speakers. Going to rearrange my setup to have 4 channel surround. I'll have my AVR do a phantom center channel using the 2 fronts.

It really feels like a dying niche which sucks. If you search for PC audio stuff now 95% of the stuff you'll find is headphones, headphones, headphones.

It's kind of sad how PC audio seems to have regressed since the 90's. I still remember how great 3D sound was back in the original Half-Life, and that's over 20 years ago. I don't think I've come across anything as good since.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2021, 01:36:01 pm »
Well that's because desktops in general are becoming extinct for everything except streaming...

...Huh?  I mean, if your PC use is limited to the tasks easily performed by a Chromebook, then I'd agree.  But until the day comes when state-of-the-art processing, graphics and sound hardware easily fit into a tablet or laptop form factor, or single-digit-millisecond network latencies make cloud computing more attractive, the big metal boxes will still be with us.  I still remember people saying that the PS/2 keyboard standard was dead, and it actually took 15-years after that time before it mostly happened.

I never did see the allure of paying more for something less powerful, more limiting and harder to repair, just so it could be portable and/or have a reduced footprint.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2021, 09:05:54 pm »
Well that's because desktops in general are becoming extinct for everything except streaming...

...Huh?  I mean, if your PC use is limited to the tasks easily performed by a Chromebook, then I'd agree.  But until the day comes when state-of-the-art processing, graphics and sound hardware easily fit into a tablet or laptop form factor, or single-digit-millisecond network latencies make cloud computing more attractive, the big metal boxes will still be with us.  I still remember people saying that the PS/2 keyboard standard was dead, and it actually took 15-years after that time before it mostly happened.

I never did see the allure of paying more for something less powerful, more limiting and harder to repair, just so it could be portable and/or have a reduced footprint.

Hey I didn't say I liked it, but tablets, notebooks and laptops are in while desktops are out.  I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population.  Like I said... gamers and only the hardcore at that are the only ones that buy desktop PCs anymore.   Artists seem to prefer macs and businesses are rapidly shifting towards laptops or dumb terminals to accommodate working from home. 

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2021, 10:41:20 am »
I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population.

I think you are looking at the situation sort of funny.  Computers are and always have been tools.  There have always been those who have needed to be able to use those tools in more than one location.  Thanks to higher accessibility, and probably to a large part "American Excess", laptops have been sought out over desktops by many who do not need them, and either willingly or unwittingly make many sacrifices as a result.  You wouldn't try to cut your winter's wood with a cordless electric chainsaw, but I see a lot of folks who buy lower-end laptops expecting to do similarly out of character things with them.  When that realization hits and/or the device develops an issue, the laptop either gets shelved and seldom used, or it gets landfilled.  Usually the latter, because the cost is usually too high to make it worth repairing/upgrading them even if possible to do so.     

But all of that aside, a CD isn't a tool, it's a medium.   It's the blade on the saw, and we are really talking about the saw.  The fact that HF has helped to make decent quality tools more accessible to the masses has little to no bearing on the future viability of the tools which are used for real production.  It just means that more people are likely to purchase those tools, when they may not have were this not the case.  It also means that a fair percentage of those same people will realize that their needs aren't being met by those less-capable (and sometimes more costly in the long-run) tools and will move toward something more suited to the work they are doing.  If there is a budget involved and portability isn't part of that criteria, it will be the big metal box.

Here's a good article on the subject.  Be sure to read to the end.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2021, 10:01:16 pm »
.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 01:27:45 pm by Osirus23 »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2021, 11:18:59 pm »
I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population.

I think you are looking at the situation sort of funny.  Computers are and always have been tools.  There have always been those who have needed to be able to use those tools in more than one location.  Thanks to higher accessibility, and probably to a large part "American Excess", laptops have been sought out over desktops by many who do not need them, and either willingly or unwittingly make many sacrifices as a result.  You wouldn't try to cut your winter's wood with a cordless electric chainsaw, but I see a lot of folks who buy lower-end laptops expecting to do similarly out of character things with them.  When that realization hits and/or the device develops an issue, the laptop either gets shelved and seldom used, or it gets landfilled.  Usually the latter, because the cost is usually too high to make it worth repairing/upgrading them even if possible to do so.     

But all of that aside, a CD isn't a tool, it's a medium.   It's the blade on the saw, and we are really talking about the saw.  The fact that HF has helped to make decent quality tools more accessible to the masses has little to no bearing on the future viability of the tools which are used for real production.  It just means that more people are likely to purchase those tools, when they may not have were this not the case.  It also means that a fair percentage of those same people will realize that their needs aren't being met by those less-capable (and sometimes more costly in the long-run) tools and will move toward something more suited to the work they are doing.  If there is a budget involved and portability isn't part of that criteria, it will be the big metal box.

Here's a good article on the subject.  Be sure to read to the end.


An with respect I think you are assuming guys like us represent the average computer usage of the population when we don't.   99.9% of the non-gamers/streamers out there just use their pc for solitaire, browsing the web, and occasionally opening an office document.    So for average usage (ie not us) even a chrome book is sufficient.   Like Osirus pointed out, this isn't the early 2000s.... a low end pc will last teh average consumer a long assed time and when they "upgrade" to a chromebook, laptop or whatever and the 20 year old apps they are still using run fine they won't see the need for a desktop.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2021, 01:28:19 pm »
I have never used a PC speaker system, ever since 98 I have always had a dedicated receiver hooked up to my PC. right now I have a digital optical audio cable hooked from my PC to a DAC; if you do not know what a DAC is it is pretty much an external sound card, it converts you audio from Digital to Analogue, you want to make sure this conversion is done right otherwise you will have a lower quality sound coming out. The Analogue sound then goes into my Denon Receiver which powers 2 Bookshelf Speakers on my desk and 2 more  energy satellite speakers mounted on my back wall along with a 300 watt sub.

I think the big problem is with neighbors or people you live with a lot of people can never get the full use out of these kind of systems so the focus becomes headphone and other isolating audio solutions.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2021, 10:53:05 pm »
There is always somebody who totally over nerds their audio. ::)

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2021, 06:20:22 am »
Been there, done almost all of that (never really got into the headphones thing.)

 - If you have even half decent hearing... I highly suggest getting a Sennheiser headphone,
anything model HD500 or above.  The entry is at least $100 for good sound... and about +$250
for sound so crystal and so 3D... that will easily trounce speakers costing more than $100,000.

 The ones I had, fooled in into thinking my entire Surround sound system was on.
4 channel headphones tend to be a gimmick, that doesnt work out well, due to the low
quality drivers in them.. and the lack of spatial differentials, within such a small area.

 A high quality headphone, can reproduce about 50% more of the sound spectrum...
and they maintain the originally recorded spatial 3D depth... where as inferior headphones and
speakers tend to distort this, and lose most of the actual 3D depth.

 This is why high level competitive FPS players tend use brands like Sennheiser... because they
can tell approximately where an enemy is, in 3d space.  Instantly, and with great accuracy.

 For Music.. you get to hear things in the music that used to be mildly distorted,
and you also gain even more 3D depth, that you also have never experienced before.
(Such as being able to point out, within a room... exactly where the bass player was standing)

 For Movies... you get all of the above... in a more private situation... such as when someone else
is using your projector.. or when you have to keep it more quiet.. due to others sleeping.


Tracker/MOD music was the first thing on computers worthy of piping through a decent audio system.  Still have my 64s and Amigas and have been using PCs since color and sound were optional features.


 Well, some Mods are nice.. but there are a lot of them that are merely just low quality "Samples".
Personally, I tend to prefer listening to actual FM Synths.  Anything from the original c64 sid.. to the Sega Genesis  (Thunderforce II, Target Earth),  to actual people playing things on the Yamaha DX-7, DX-7 IID, etc. (Similar to the game sounds in Marble Madness)   As well as monkeying around with these FM Synth engines, in keyboard synth emulators.   Most Arcade games operate with a built in FM Synth chip... which is why they sound so damn Glorious.

 I really despised the SNES using a sample based audio engine, rather than a dedicated synth chip.   The sounds and music were so much more generic and flat, as a result.   While you Can sample synths for it.. the problem then becomes file-sizes.  And since there was limited space on these carts... the audio quality tended to take a huge hit, as a result.  Since synths are driven by algorithms, the filesizes were very small... and they produce a flawless sound quality.. that is breath-taking.  Only problem is... programming an FM Synth was a nightmare for anyone other than a highly dedicated sound engineer + experimenter.


 And of course, there is also the more modern game audio, such as the bumpin soundtracks from Ridge Racer (PS1).


 I also prefer to run my MP3, and Flac audio files, into my stereo.  Its easier to set up a nice playlist, and let it go.
I sometimes play CDs directly from the PC... but Im trying to Rip them all to Flac files.


Never owned a full-surround "PC" speaker system.  When I went to surround on the PC, it was a 5.1 system, albeit a cheaper one, intended for HT and of course, an appropriate SB card which could feed it the signals to do it.  I'm sure that there were/are good "PC" surround systems, but the value usually isn't there.

 Thats exactly what I recommend.  You simply output the analog stereo out.. to a used surround sound amp..  which you can often find at a thrift shop for less than $30.  A soundblaster card has far superior audio to onboard audio, of course.  While my amp doesnt have Digital THX... the basic surround sound method it uses, still seems to work fine, when playing THX Digital BluRay movies though it  (I use a dedicated blu-ray player, rather than a PC bluray drive)


 The only dedicated PC surround system I heard that was "OK", was at a friends house.  It was a white 4.1 set, by Cambrige Soundworks.  The small speakers were pretty clear... but that said... it was still underpowered, and missing a lot of the deeper audio spectrum.  I have no idea what he paid for it... but it probably cost him as much as my 300? watt Pioneer receiver.

 The biggest problem with the modern PC based systems.. besides the poor quality speakers... and high prices.. is that the Amp electronics tend to fail in less than a 3yr period.  The lead-free soldier, and low quality components used... cause them to fail quickly.   I see these show up in the thrift stores very often... and the amps are always dead.   Heck, thats the problem with everything made today.  Buy a $1000 LCD tv, and you will be lucky if it makes it to the 2yr mark... if its not DOA, right out of the box.

 I thought about trying to pickup a new THX surround receiver.. but after I saw the countless failures in the reviews... I realized I was better off not risking the loss of money.


But all of this is academic.  Sound is very subjective, as no two individuals possess exactly the same receptor wetware. I've heard "audiophile" systems which sound like utter crap to me, especially when the cost is considered.  They are usually tailored to the specific application and environment of interest to the specific user, which means that they tend to fall on their face when venturing too far outside of those parameters.


 The biggest issue, is that many people have a poor hearing spectrum / range.  If you dont hear midrange frequencies well... then you will likely not enjoy a typical speakers output.  You will seek speakers that have seriously cranked midrange levels.  To others... your speakers will be PAINFUL to their ears... as the midrange will be overbearing and harsh.  But to you... it will be "Just right".

 Now.. heres the thing... The speakers you were listening too... may have been capable of better sound... BUT... the guy may have jacked the midrange EQ way the hell up, for example.

 I had one guy listen to my Sennheiser headphones.. and he was so blown away, that he decided to order a pair of Audiophile grade headphones.  Somehow, he ended up getting a different brand instead.  This brand clamed to be able to hit even more of a frequency range than my headphones.   But when I listened to them... the midrange was so harsh and overbearing , that I simply could not stand them.  I tried to use my audio players EQ settings... but the headphones were simply too far tuned this way... to be able to reduce the midrange to a reasonable level at all.   He loved them... but as I learned.. he did in fact have pretty bad hearing issues, so it made sense.

 Its not all about Frequency Range figures either.  Its also about THD (distortion levels, at high volume levels).

 Then you have Fake-Bass (Bass Ports)... which technically can hit a much lower frequency level... BUT... it sounds artificial, and awful.

 Then you have things like Horn Tweeters... which distort the 3D audio image.

 And of course, you now have modern ECO speakers.. that try to fool the customer, that four 5" drivers.. can somehow match the bass levels of a single high quality +8" woofer.   Even with one of their fake Subs (a woofer, acting as a sub)..  it wont even come close to the musical range of that +8" woofered speaker.

 But anyway... the point being... is that if the speaker is made properly... with you setting your EQ settings tailored to your ears... you Should be able to get a decent sound out of it.   However... If your hearing is extremely limited in certain ranges... you would have to drastically alter your drivers... to make up for the things you do not hear well... as even heavy EQ, may not be enough.   The issue with this... is that if other peoples ears are too far apart in ranges... then they might be driven away by your chosen sound profile.


With audio, the "jack of all trades, master of none" approach is where I put my money.  If it sounds good to you, turn it up until it doesn't and if it's still not loud enough before you get to that point, upgrade until it is.  Anything beyond that is usually just expensive fluff


 This does not make any sense, in terms of how Audio actually works.

 A speaker that is only 15 watts, might be clear and powerful enough for an arcade machine... but its not going to be able to fill an entire room with powerful, clean, accurate, sound.

 A modern cheap-o-speaker:  The Techniques 200 watt speakers might be fairly LOUD... but their ported design, and low quality woofers... present a sound quality that is full of distortions.  (low magnet strengths = poor cone control = lots of distortions)

 An Audiophile level speaker.. can be both fairly Loud, and still remain Flawless... having like only .01% of distortions in its reproductions, at its LOUDEST volume potentials.

 Or course, if you are in a band... and trying to play at a large, Noisy, Club..  you are going to choose "Pro-Audio Speakers".  These are not anywhere near as accurate as audiophile speakers, but they tend to have anywhere from 300 to +800 watts capability.  These are used in Movie Theaters, Outdoor Rock Concerts...etc.   The main function is loudness, powerful chest thumping bass, and a wide high-frequency audio spread.


 What Ive also learned from messing with speakers, and learning their component and design attributes... is that you cant
realistically "Upgrade" a speaker.   When I added super-tweeters to my techniques... I didnt realize that I was altering the Ohm resistance of the speakers. (which could have blown a lesser quality Amp, quickly)

 You cant add a more powerful sealed woofer in their cabinet... because that cabinet it designed to be ported.  Its also designed to a specific inner air volume.   Also, the cabinets cheap and thin wood... allow for distortions.   You would have to put internal braces in the speaker, and thicken the walls internally, at minimal... for a decent woofer upgrade to even be worth it.   At that point, you might as well build a new box... and scrap the crappy speakers completely.

 And if you were merely looking for raw power... such as a club speaker... the box isnt big enough, strong enough, nor is the internal wiring the correct gauges.  The weak electronic crossovers would also likely Fry, as the are not designed for that much power.


 Finally... in reference to the above "Pro-Audio Speakers" ...I will say that one of my friends got a really massive pair of speakers.  I think they were Cerwin Vegas.  Two 12 or 15" woofers, and I believe a mid and a horn tweeter.   I think they were like 800 watts each.  They were powerful, thumpin, and clear.  When he cranked them to a DVD of Iron Man... it literally sounded like you were in a war-zone... and I wonder if the neighbor didnt freak out as a result.   That said... they were not audiophile speakers.  They lacked musicality.  The high frequencies were Harsh, and the 3d Soundstage was nearly non-existent, even at decent volume levels... and good speaker placement.   Again, these are Party speakers... good for filling the room up, but not for buttery smooth, super accurate, ear-gasming 3D spatial audio.


 While there are a lot of Audiophile scams, and self-proclaimed audiophiles that have garbage setups... What I can tell you, is that once you hear what music is Supposed to sound like.. you can Never go back to generic speakers / headphones, ever again.   Its literally like the difference of watching a 15" Black and White tv... compared to an Imax 3D theatre film.

 Also, there is no greater upgrade to your quality of life, than a high quality audio system.   I remember watching Terminator 2, on my 13"? commodore amiga monitor... from my laserdisc.  The image may have been small, and nowhere near the quality of modern bluray image in 4k... but what made the experience magical, was my surround sound system.  Hearing CD quality audio, like crunch of the Skull being stepped on by a terminator... or the lasers blast from front and back... all around the room... was simply incredible.   And that was when I only had mediocre speakers.


 I always suggest staring with an Audiophile level headphone, because finding an affordable audiophile speaker set, can be a lot more challenging, and the results of a speaker cant match the accuracy of a headphones smaller, lighter, drivers.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 06:24:44 am by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2021, 07:20:12 am »
I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population.

I think you are looking at the situation sort of funny.  Computers are and always have been tools.  There have always been those who have needed to be able to use those tools in more than one location.  Thanks to higher accessibility, and probably to a large part "American Excess", laptops have been sought out over desktops by many who do not need them, and either willingly or unwittingly make many sacrifices as a result.  You wouldn't try to cut your winter's wood with a cordless electric chainsaw, but I see a lot of folks who buy lower-end laptops expecting to do similarly out of character things with them.  When that realization hits and/or the device develops an issue, the laptop either gets shelved and seldom used, or it gets landfilled.  Usually the latter, because the cost is usually too high to make it worth repairing/upgrading them even if possible to do so.     

But all of that aside, a CD isn't a tool, it's a medium.   It's the blade on the saw, and we are really talking about the saw.  The fact that HF has helped to make decent quality tools more accessible to the masses has little to no bearing on the future viability of the tools which are used for real production.  It just means that more people are likely to purchase those tools, when they may not have were this not the case.  It also means that a fair percentage of those same people will realize that their needs aren't being met by those less-capable (and sometimes more costly in the long-run) tools and will move toward something more suited to the work they are doing.  If there is a budget involved and portability isn't part of that criteria, it will be the big metal box.

Here's a good article on the subject.  Be sure to read to the end.


An with respect I think you are assuming guys like us represent the average computer usage of the population when we don't.   99.9% of the non-gamers/streamers out there just use their pc for solitaire, browsing the web, and occasionally opening an office document.    So for average usage (ie not us) even a chrome book is sufficient.   Like Osirus pointed out, this isn't the early 2000s.... a low end pc will last teh average consumer a long assed time and when they "upgrade" to a chromebook, laptop or whatever and the 20 year old apps they are still using run fine they won't see the need for a desktop.

 This is a bunch of Tripe.

 99% of NON GAMERS?   What kind of laughable argument is that?!    Most anyone under 40, is playing a bunch of games on their PCs.  Anything from mame, to RPGs, to various 2D games on Steam, to big name 3D titles... as well as VR.

 The recent Graphics card shortages, are not merely because of supply problems, and crypto miners...  Its because public demand has risen by multiples.  Thats what happens, when more and more youth, get into gaming... and the existing gamers, are still into gaming (upgrades).  The demands will keep climbing.

 Also... countless artists in fact, DO use PCs (myself included).  For 3d modeling, photoshop work, illustration, and freehand drawing... using a wacom based drawing tablet.  Realize that most artists are POOR... and cant afford the high price point of Apple Products and Apple $oftware.   You can easily find tons of high quality software for the PC... for FREE, Cheap, or in desperate measures: Sailing the Seas... Arrrrrr

 FYI - Android is basically useless for many artists.  The devices are way too underpowered... and many of the more advanced programs will Lag badly when you try to draw something with them.  Especially if the drawing gets too detailed / large in filesize... and or the specific tools are also eating too much of the processor up.   Even the Apple Pro tablets were lagging in the former generation.. that I tested.


 PC VR is going to take off even more dramatically, once prices drop.. and the tech gets more robust.  While there are Stand-Alone VR units.. they are far too under-powered, for the kind of games and experiences that a high powered gaming PC can achieve.  In fact, even a mid-spec PC could probably Trounce these stand-alone units.


 While Laptops and tablets have been gaining more power than they used to have... they still do not compare with the power of even a low-spec PC.  The majority of Laptops (affordable), are built for saving power.  They are often not that fast, have small amounts of ram, and do not have much in terms of upgradability, either.   They are also less reliable than they used to be, due to the lead-free soldier.


 Also.. many companies have tried to get the masses to buy into streaming-games from custom servers... such as "Stadia".  They are failures... because people do not have fast enough internet bandwidth, to be able to have a nearly lag-free experience.  While a casual player that plays a slow exploring type of game... might be fine with it... the majority of gamers, wont stand for losing.. due to lag issues.


 With the current state of the US, and how slow infrastructure rolls out... there wont be an acceptable mass internet speed... for like two more decades.  And by that time... its possible that the speeds that were attained, will be too slow for the new graphical / intensity  demands.
( I cant even get a 1080p stream to work, with my current connection)

 Now... as chip manufacturers increase CPU power, and start putting more powerful graphics processing directly into the CPU... things may start to shift towards laptops and tablets... for a larger portion of personal usage.


 The  Elite "Theorists", are way off the mark, in terms of realistic time-frames, and specs.   They are Clueless.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2021, 04:00:45 pm »
The price of graphics cards is because of crypto full stop. I mean you are literally talking about paying a couple thousands for a card and then having it run for 4 to 6 months and still paying it self off. There has never been a situation quite like this before, to top it off if it is not like people are only limited to one or a few they can do this with, they can mine with as many cards as they can get their hands on. I don't know what computer gamers are going to do anymore, the only saving grace when this happened last time was when crypto took a dump and stayed down for a while, I don't think Crypto is going to take that kind of dump again.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2021, 06:03:15 pm »
Howard just wanted to know if he should isolate his Subwoofer....and now the question is ..the price of graphics cards.. FS.

@ Howard, your question was best answered by BadMouth a few posts after your own  :lol  He builds speakers and has a good understanding of the topic.

@ Xiaou2, your posts are long and full of truths, half truths, and a fair bit of bunk.  E.g. getting a set of audiophile headphones is the most affordable way to hear music as the artist intended.  I agree, very true! $250+ headphones sounding better than $100K speakers, no. 

Wall of text to follow?  ::)

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2021, 06:12:32 pm »
I've been using the same set of Altec Lancing speakers and subwoofer since i got them in the 90's.
they still sound great to me.

they look like this.


I have two of these for some reason.
I think one of the better SB cards came with them.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2021, 06:56:33 pm »
Yeah they make good speakers.   I've bought several over the years for various rigs and I've never had issues.   

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2021, 01:37:37 pm »
This is why high level competitive FPS players tend use brands like Sennheiser... because they
can tell approximately where an enemy is, in 3d space.  Instantly, and with great accuracy.

That's the only reason I use them.  The Playstation Gold wireless headphones do the job well enough.  But if I'm listening to music, I prefer not to have something strapped on my head.  A bass drum is also just not the same when approximated by a tiny driver.  For movies (and music) , I have a hodgepodge 7.1 setup...a couple of older Bose in parallel for the center, Pioneer S910's for front, A Cerwin Vega powered sub and the rest is filled in with Dayton Audio B652's.  All of it remnants of the past, or picked up cheap here and there.  Sounds good to me and that's all I care about.

Quote
Well, some Mods are nice.. but there are a lot of them that are merely just low quality "Samples". 

Tracker/MODS can be synthesis, samples, or both.  Some of the best C-64 music was made on Tracker software. 

Quote
Now.. heres the thing... The speakers you were listening too... may have been capable of better sound... BUT... the guy may have jacked the midrange EQ way the hell up, for example.

Possible, but a lot of those "audiophile" systems emphasize mid to high frequencies.  If you want detail, that's where it's at.  Even cheap speakers can do a pretty good job in that range with lower volumes and source material without a lot of cross over.  But the source material is important.  A system designed for classical music/jazz might sound spectacular for those genres, but they usually don't fare well for more contemporary material. It's all about having the right tool for the job.  I like many different genres of music (I think Jazz is the only one I really dislike  :lol), thus my "Jack of all trades, master of none" comment.

Quote
This does not make any sense, in terms of how Audio actually works.

That's the beauty of my approach to audio.  It doesn't matter how it works...  I think you missed the "If it sounds good to you" prerequisite.  Everyone isn't an audiophile, and even some who claim to be have done nothing more than thrown away money for something they are unable (or unwilling) to fully appreciate.  It's often akin to paying someone to come to your house and adjust your high-end AV equipment to cinema specs, and twiddling the color settings a day after he leaves.  Touch those knobs once, and you could have saved a fortune  :lol
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 02:44:18 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2021, 06:03:26 pm »
Even cheap speakers can do a pretty good job in that range with lower volumes and source material without a lot of cross over.

Ima have to disagree with this. As someone who has owned a range of audio gear over the years, I've noticed a distinct difference in the relative quality of respective equipment on the low end.

Good low end should be distinct and punchy. Bad low-end can sound muddy and muffled.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2021, 06:06:14 pm »
Tracker/MOD music was the first thing on computers worthy of piping through a decent audio system.

IMHO that honor belongs to the Roland MT-32 sound module. I'm astounded how good old Sierra games sound hooked up to one of those bad boys.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 07:41:09 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2021, 06:13:23 pm »
Personally, I tend to prefer listening to actual FM Synths.  Anything from the original c64 sid.. to the Sega Genesis  (Thunderforce II, Target Earth),  to actual people playing things on the Yamaha DX-7, DX-7 IID, etc. (Similar to the game sounds in Marble Madness)   As well as monkeying around with these FM Synth engines, in keyboard synth emulators.   Most Arcade games operate with a built in FM Synth chip... which is why they sound so damn Glorious.

Higher end FM synths like the Yamaha DX-series can sound quite nice. But the chips used for computer/arcade FM synth music were typically more limited. I do appreciate classic FM synthesis for its nostalgia value, but for quality-of-sound from that era external sample-based sound modules were the way to go.

Just compare the original Adlib FM sound versus the Roland MT-32. It's just no contest.






« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 06:48:03 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2021, 08:10:18 pm »
Even cheap speakers can do a pretty good job in that range with lower volumes and source material without a lot of cross over.

Ima have to disagree with this. As someone who has owned a range of audio gear over the years, I've noticed a distinct difference in the relative quality of respective equipment on the low end.

Good low end should be distinct and punchy. Bad low-end can sound muddy and muffled.
Eh, I spent money on Morel CAT308 tweeters and decent Morel woofers to build a pair of speakers for a dedicated listening area.  When all was said and done my reaction was... "for the volume levels I listen at, I could have got this sound out of $30  3/4 inch silk domes and Dayton Reference mids."  The Morel speakers would no doubt rule at higher volume levels, but I doubt they'll ever be driven hard enough to experience their full potential.  The lifelong dream of a dedicated listening room was fun to plan and build, but hasn't been utilized in 6 months. (those subs are on foam furniture pads btw)

 

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2021, 08:25:33 pm »
Eh, I spent money on Morel CAT308 tweeters and decent Morel woofers to build a pair of speakers for a dedicated listening area.  When all was said and done my reaction was... "for the volume levels I listen at, I could have got this sound out of $30  3/4 inch silk domes and Dayton Reference mids."  The Morel speakers would no doubt rule at higher volume levels, but I doubt they'll ever be driven hard enough to experience their full potential.  The lifelong dream of a dedicated listening room was fun to plan and build, but hasn't been utilized in 6 months. (those subs are on foam furniture pads btw)

 

That's fair. It does come down to personal use and application (and listening environment).

FWIW, my own bias comes from my prior HT experience. I upgraded to an SVS PB-13 Ultra subwoofer and the sheer incredibleness of that monster has colored my perception of subwoofers and bass ever since. Having tasted the good stuff, it's hard to go back to anything else.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2021, 09:54:06 am »
Tracker/MOD music was the first thing on computers worthy of piping through a decent audio system.

IMHO that honor belongs to the Roland MT-32 sound module. I'm astounded how good old Sierra games sound hooked up to one of those bad boys.

Being worthy of piping through a decent audio system (i.e. not limiting one's self to the little monitor speakers) and comparing sound technologies are two different things.  Sound Monitor software was widely used on the C64 at least a couple of years before anything made use of the MT-32 module.  Plus, it was so costly that few even owned it.

To be honest, even though the music sounded great through those devices, it felt to me at the time like something was about to be lost.  We went from creatively squeezing the last drop of musical performance from very limited sound circuitry, to what was essentially just using a modern synthesizer with some canned samples.  It signaled the end of the "one man show" game developers, as the tools were progressing to the point of being accessible to traditionally trained musicians and artists.

This demo music sounds as though it could have been produced with Sound Monitor or Rock monitor.  The difference between the two was the ability to use limited, low quality samples with the latter.
 


And this one shows some amazing creativity using the limited number of voices available.  I have no idea what was used to create the music in this one.  Definitely atypical for the 64, but also recent.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 12:58:55 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2021, 10:29:06 am »
Howard just wanted to know if he should isolate his Subwoofer....and now the question is ..the price of graphics cards.. FS.

@ Howard, your question was best answered by BadMouth a few posts after your own  :lol  He builds speakers and has a good understanding of the topic.

@ Xiaou2, your posts are long and full of truths, half truths, and a fair bit of bunk.  E.g. getting a set of audiophile headphones is the most affordable way to hear music as the artist intended.  I agree, very true! $250+ headphones sounding better than $100K speakers, no. 

Wall of text to follow?  ::)

 Its Physics man.

 The Mass of a large woofers cone + Coil  ...means that it takes more energy to be able to stop and start its movements.

 - If the cone does not stop as fast as the intended signal proposed... then you get distortion of the intended sounds.
 - If the cone does not accelerate as fast as the intended signal... then you will also have distortions.


 A headphone driver, is literally light as a feather.  Sennheiser also uses aluminum wire coils, to further
reduce the cone drivers mass... making the drivers even lighter / faster, and thus even more accuracy is possible.

 There is no way to easily scale an 8" woofer (or larger), to match an Audiophile headphones responses.
If you make the cone too thin and light, it will physically warp as it moves... causing even more distortions.
They developed many composite materials that are light and strong... but even then, they still cant match the
speed and accuracy of a high quality headphone driver.

 The only other thing they can, and Do... is to use a more powerful speaker magnet... and potentially
make the driver coil stronger.   There are limits, as you do not want to change the OHM range too much,
you have to match the other drives in the system, and you still tend to want to keep the coil mass down
as much as possible too.   These speakers will each up much more wattage... but they will have better
control of the woofer, due to the increased magnetic strength to get things to move quicker / stop quicker.

 * I will add, that any woofer less than 8",  is never going to have a good deep base response.
There are ways to use ports to create extended fake-bass.. but thats artificial and distorted.. and
thus not worthy of comparison.


 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before.  Most specifically a
Sennheiser HD set.   I can tell you, that there is NO comparison from a sub 100$ headphone, or
a typically well known brand of  "Gaming Headphone"... that can come within 1/100 th   of the sound
quality that comes from a Audiophile grade Sennheiser headphone.

 As Ive stated before... the sound was so clear and "3D".. that it made me think that I actually
left all 4 of my house speakers on (surround sound)  ...when playing a DVD movie.  There was also one track on
my MP3 players track list, that starts out with a "Thunder" sound effect... and then rolls into soft rain.  This
very track has fooled me at least two different times... to look out of the nearest window, to see the "Storm"
only to realize that there was no storm.  I later put the headphones on one of my family members, and as soon
as the "storm" section played, they also looked out of the window... not realizing it was from the headphones.
Such a feat is not easy, unless you have very high quality drivers, that have such low distortion levels, as to
be nearly non-existent, even at the highest of volume levels.


 I also own a LOT of house speakers, of various brands and qualities.   The only speakers that come
close are my EPI 100v speakers... and while I got them used and refoamed for 100$... that was
not their original listed price "New".    According to the data, they were $198 in  1967 to 1970 Dollars.
An Inflation calculator says thats over $1000 of todays US dollar currency.

 They trounce the living daylights out of the $3000 speakers at the local high end stereo shop.
(Not even close to competing)

 But even then... they still have limitations, that the Senns will always be able to defeat, due to
the scale / physics.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2021, 10:49:56 am »
How do you fit all of that audio equipment in the van that you live in?

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2021, 11:00:28 am »
Even cheap speakers can do a pretty good job in that range with lower volumes and source material without a lot of cross over.

Ima have to disagree with this. As someone who has owned a range of audio gear over the years, I've noticed a distinct difference in the relative quality of respective equipment on the low end.

Good low end should be distinct and punchy. Bad low-end can sound muddy and muffled.
Eh, I spent money on Morel CAT308 tweeters and decent Morel woofers to build a pair of speakers for a dedicated listening area.  When all was said and done my reaction was... "for the volume levels I listen at, I could have got this sound out of $30  3/4 inch silk domes and Dayton Reference mids."  The Morel speakers would no doubt rule at higher volume levels, but I doubt they'll ever be driven hard enough to experience their full potential.  The lifelong dream of a dedicated listening room was fun to plan and build, but hasn't been utilized in 6 months. (those subs are on foam furniture pads btw)

 

 I dont have the time to research all of the drives you used.   What I can say... is that your main woofers are too small,
and the use of Subs to try to fill in the missing mid-bass and low-bass (above sub levels), is going to be very much
lacking.

 In addition... as Ive mentioned before... Tube Ported speakers create artificial bass sounds, which only
muddies and distorts the sounds that come out of them.  When you hear a quality speaker that is
designed for sealed enclosure air-pressures... the natural bass sounds will be like honey to your ears,
compared to piles of dog poo.

 I will always advise picking up a pair of EPI's inverted tweeters.  Ive never heard a more spatial 3d soundstage
from any other tweeter.   There is a guy that hand makes them, that used to work for the original company:

 https://www.humanspeakers.com/diy/parts/002me.htm

 Supposedly the new version is even better than the originals... but I couldnt tell you, as I have all original
speakers.

 Im not sure why you would separate music listening, from home theatre?  Or maybe you do not have
a HT setup?

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2021, 11:08:22 am »
How do you fit all of that audio equipment in the van that you live in?

 All of the belongings I was able to save, were put into storage for quite some time, before I was able to
eventually get back on my feet, and be able to afford a place of my own.

 That said... Im out of work now... and in if I cant get something within a years time, Im toast.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2021, 12:25:22 pm »
The Playstation Gold wireless headphones do the job well enough.


 - I cant find any specs on their drivers... which tends to mean, they are the cheapest drivers possible.
You are missing out on details that they will never be able to replicate.  Wireless also tends to means even
worse audio quality overall (compared to cabled), as well as potential for getting some nice brain tumors.

  But if I'm listening to music, I prefer not to have something strapped on my head.


 With Specific Senn models... they are so light, and over-the-ear (does not rest on the ears)...
that you dont even feel them, and sometimes forget them are on, even +8hrs later.

 Furthermore... when you listen to them, they dont sound like headphone speakers.  It sounds as if
you actually have house speakers all around you, playing in surround sound.

 I do prefer using the EPI speakers though, as the experience is different.  Its just that I cant always play
music at certain hours, and so the headphones work well in that situation.

 Also, they make superior Ear Muffs, for the harsh winter cold.  (The headphone cable is removable via
a jack)


  A bass drum is also just not the same when approximated by a tiny driver.

 If you are speaking in terms of Headphone drivers... then you are wrong.  They scale, because they are close to
your ears.  The senns I have, go all the way down to 10hz.  (and up to 41khz  and 0.05% thd)
If the recording was created properly... then the bass levels can go extremely low.

 If you are speaking about House speakers... then I agree, with some points:
The EPIs I have, only have 8" woofers... but the amount of bass they produce, completely trounces my former
12" techniques speakers.  The higher magnet strength + stronger coils = Punchier, deeper, floor shaking bass.

 I would not go any smaller than 8".

 I was given a pair of Advent 12" two ways (bullnose).  These are strange, in that they have a
10" driver,  that was inserted into a 12" basket.  The bass levels, to me... are WAY too over-kill for music.
Though... for movie effects... they shake the room better than many peoples subs.. while putting out good
a much wider spectrum of bass / midbass.

Possible, but a lot of those "audiophile" systems emphasize mid to high frequencies.


 You clearly are talking about the modern eco crap, that have like three 6" woofers in them.  Yeah... those are Trash,
not Audiophile level speakers.   They often get sold to suckers whom like the look of them, and the space savings..
but they dont have the bass and midbass... and them trying to replace it with a crappy sub, doesnt really work.

 There are some audiophile speakers with larger more powerful drivers in them... but they tend to cost more than
I have ever made in a single year.

 Which is why, its often far better to pick up Vintage audiophile level speakers.  (typically sealed, from the 70s, and weight like 50lbs each)


 A system designed for classical music/jazz might sound spectacular for those genres, but they usually don't fare well for more contemporary material. It's all about having the right tool for the job.  I like many different genres of music (I think Jazz is the only one I really dislike  :lol), thus my "Jack of all trades, master of none" comment.

 I also listen to virtually all types of music... and there is literally nothing that I cant throw at my EPI 100v's, that it does not handle well.

 That's the beauty of my approach to audio.  It doesn't matter how it works...  I think you missed the "If it sounds good to you" prerequisite.  Everyone isn't an audiophile, and even some who claim to be have done nothing more than thrown away money for something they are unable (or unwilling) to fully appreciate.  It's often akin to paying someone to come to your house and adjust your high-end AV equipment to cinema specs, and twiddling the color settings a day after he leaves.  Touch those knobs once, and you could have saved a fortune  :lol

 If you had gotten a 46" TV, when they were  1080p...  At that time, it was amazing... compared to standard-definition TV sets.
But compare that to a true 4k TV, playing 4k video... and its on a whole other level.

 It was not until you actually saw the thing in-person... that you realized how much more detail that could be experienced.

 Audiophile quality speakers and Headphones are like that.  You have to get a good set, and hear them in-person.
Once you have a real audiophile grade experience... you can never go back.  It becomes similar to going back to a black and white TV.

 The main problem, is knowing which speakers / headphones are ACTUALLY audiophile grade... and which ones are basically
fraudulent overpriced BS.  (Such as: Bose, Beats)


 Also, I will state, that I never thought Id be an Audiophile.  It sounded way beyond my financial means... and my personal bias
was that it was all over-priced hype, that was not really worth the money.   After getting a taste of the Senns... I was forever changed.
I was able to hear lyrics in songs that I had listened to for decades... and never could understand what they were saying... and NOW, for
the first time... was able to make these lyrics out perfectly.   All of my music had to be re-listened to... as it was a completely different experience, with such low-distortion headphones.

 And the EPIs true bass sounds, instead of the farty ported speakers?  I almost cried on the spot. it was that much different,
and that much better.  Imagine being fed HotDogs your entire life... and then you were finally handed a perfectly seasoned, top quality, melt in your mouth... Steak.  Its THAT kind of difference!


 The fake audiophile stuff, is like getting a 720p monitor, that used an interlace mode to achieve a higher resolution.  Its still
nowhere near the experience of a  4k TV, for example.  The real deal, is on a whole other level...  and,  if you know what to look for, its often not hard to pick up superior vintage gear... for better prices than the cheapest ECO Crap, at the high end Stereo Shop.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 12:27:03 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2021, 05:47:12 pm »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 05:55:27 pm by Ond »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2021, 08:45:27 pm »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...
Ond, if you ain’t pushing 50,000 watts into your dome, you ain’t even tryin’


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2021, 08:49:25 pm »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...
Ond, if you ain’t pushing 50,000 watts into your dome, you ain’t even tryin’


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Well this is true!  Ha hah, remember that guy?   :cheers:

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2021, 10:50:01 pm »
I dont have the time to research all of the drives you used.   What I can say... is that your main woofers are too small,
and the use of Subs to try to fill in the missing mid-bass and low-bass (above sub levels), is going to be very much
lacking.

Those aren't your average 6" speakers.  They are solid down to 60Hz in a sealed enclosure.

Quote
In addition... as Ive mentioned before... Tube Ported speakers create artificial bass sounds, which only
muddies and distorts the sounds that come out of them.  When you hear a quality speaker that is
designed for sealed enclosure air-pressures... the natural bass sounds will be like honey to your ears,
compared to piles of dog poo.

Old codger audiophiles have actually come around on this one in recent years.  I expect to hear/feel the oscillations from a bass guitar string or drum skin.  This is partly accurate bass, but also time alignment with the other drivers since the related sound cues are not limited to bass.  I ported to get lower extension.  Adjusted port length and damping through trial and error until I got the sound I was after.  I may try them sealed someday to see if the loss of the lowest frequencies is worth it.
Tracks I use when evaluating bass: Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck, Hell Haw (live) by John 5, Path of Two by Mike Rowland (masters of percussion album).  To test for port noise, I'll break out Computer Love by Techmaster P.E.B. and ASR 10 by Bass Outlaws.  Don't blow your precious headphones listening to 90's bass albums.  ;)


Quote
Im not sure why you would separate music listening, from home theatre?  Or maybe you do not have
a HT setup?
The acoustics of my living room are atrocious and I am not willing to change seating locations or add any absorption material to the decor.



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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2021, 11:05:58 pm »
Loudest thing I’ve ever heard in my life was two startled macaws in an outside cage when their owner said “go look at my parrots” and I’ve been to a Slayer concert and air shows for comparison.

My eye balls literally vibrated and I thought I was going to ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- myself.  I probably did go do a maintenance wipe.  I mean those ---daisies--- gave me everything they had from two feet away.


What speakers can recapture this?


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2021, 01:44:57 am »
Loudest thing I’ve ever heard in my life was two startled macaws in an outside cage when their owner said “go look at my parrots” and I’ve been to a Slayer concert and air shows for comparison.

My eye balls literally vibrated and I thought I was going to ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- myself.  I probably did go do a maintenance wipe.  I mean those ---daisies--- gave me everything they had from two feet away.


What speakers can recapture this?

 :laugh2:
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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2021, 12:53:02 pm »
Quote from: Xiaou2

I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before.


The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

At least someone understands.  It's not above the 10k mark, but my 600watt powered sub delivers bass which can literally knock the dust out of my ceiling tiles when my volume finger gets itchy.

When a drummer nails that 25+" bass drum, it sends out a shock wave which passes over your entire body.  Listening to that same sound in headphones is like hearing a band playing from the nosebleed seats, as opposed to being in the third row.  And don't even get me started on the inability of such small drivers to adequately reproduce home theater effects the likes of explosions, jet engines, etc...

And then there is the whole "ambiance" argument.  In most cases, sound doesn't travel in a straight line to your eardrums.  It reflects off of surfaces in the room, creating a presence which is wholly artificially approximated with even the best "3D" headphones.  To my ears, a well-tuned room setup with appropriately sized speakers, sounds much more natural than the results of trying to replicate what a studio sound engineer heard at the control panel.  This is starting to sound like the debate over pixels in old arcade graphics being displayed on LCD panels.  The goal isn't to precisely isolate 1's and 0's, it's to re-create the feeling of being in the room where the band is performing.

I use headphones when I am looking for subtleties, like the footsteps of an approaching enemy player.  I don't listen to music with them and gifting me $500 headphones won't change that :)

« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 01:59:58 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2021, 01:08:41 pm »
500 dollars? pffft.

Do you guys even audiophile?

You aren't even hearing real sound until you spend 70 grand on speaker cables.

And you don't even hear the real lyrics to songs on anything less that ten thousand dollar headphones.

On lesser equipment you are just hearing what the Trilateral Commission wants you to hear.




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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2021, 05:04:59 pm »
I knew a guy in the 90s that had two speakers used for symphonies and operas.  He was a huge opera fan.  Flew to the Met several times a year, that kind of whackadoo.  The price I was told was "over $10,000 each" but $10,000 dollars is one of those sticky dollar amounts we slap on everything we can't properly value.  Like, "if you break that pacman, it'll cost you $10,000" or "if you break the bowling pin machine, that will be $10,000."  I've been threatened with $10,000 penalties my entire life.  So, who the hell knows but he wasn't ostentatious and someone crazy enough to fly to New York several times a year is just crazy enough to spend that kind of 90s money.

The only thing particularly notable about them was the sound was... full? even out in his damn front yard with just the front door open.  And not "loud."  You could comfortably talk over it.  Louder up closer, obviously, but never like rattle the windows.

And I'll go with that other sticky dollar amount that buyers always use and say, eh, I'd give you $500 for it.

 :dunno

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2021, 06:53:59 pm »
A rounded ‘goto’ figure is fine for audio gear. Prices vary from really cheap stuff to many thousands, the guy was probably just being modest. Mike A’s sarcasm about audiophiles is not without some truth.  Some people have more dollars than sense and will let salespeople talk them into buying all kinds of crap.  Over-priced cables is one really good example.  The “blind test” in which a group of audiophiles are asked to judge different cable types from cheap electrical cable to very expensive ‘audio grade’ cable on the same pair of speakers, waffling on about subtle nuances in the differences between each only to be told it was the same cheap cable all along…  In the era of digital audio overpriced cables are an even bigger joke.

When I got into audio as a hobby years ago I discovered I could build kit versions of quality speakers offered by manufactures for much cheaper than the shelf price.  I’ve never looked back.

This is an 'arcadephile' forum not an audiophile forum.  You guys could get all steamed up about control panel ergonomics and the merits of leaf switches over cherries to the nth degree because it’s your (my) passion. Thankfully, in general, it’s a much cheaper hobby than high-end audio.

I worked with a guy a whose passion was high-end cars and motor racing.  Those rounded off sticky figures you were  quoting pbj?  Don’t even apply to that guy. Each to their own…

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2021, 02:29:48 am »
Reminds me of a classic joke from a former hobby on the mainland.

"How do you make a small fortune in auto racing...?
Start with a large one."

And the racket in audio gear is unbelievable.
My friends who worked in the industry in the 90s said the mark up on even inexpensive stuff started at 300% and went up from there.

Ond is correct once again.
Building your own audio gear (certainly speakers) for pretty much anyone here is very doable.
And we have found a VERY inexpensive hobby in video game cabinets.
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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2021, 11:04:58 am »
I just use a pair of plastic Amstrads and be done with it.

Drum's quite good. Base non existent. As for the words.....

But they fill the air with noise. Drowns out the wife.

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Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2021, 03:16:49 pm »
Enh, if I’m listening to music on headphones, it’s because I’m doing yard word or at my desk in a physical office. For casual music listening, it’s speakers all the way.

I just picked up a Denon receiver and Klipisch speakers for my home office. Paired with a U-Turn Oribt turntable, Echo Link, and Bluetooth from my Mac Mini, and I have all the music-listenin’ setup I need. I don’t need my balls to shake or to look out the window every 5 minutes to see if it’s raining to enjoy my tunes. :)


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2021, 03:17:50 pm »
A rounded ‘goto’ figure is fine for audio gear. Prices vary from really cheap stuff to many thousands, the guy was probably just being modest. Mike A’s sarcasm about audiophiles is not without some truth.  Some people have more dollars than sense and will let salespeople talk them into buying all kinds of crap.  Over-priced cables is one really good example.  The “blind test” in which a group of audiophiles are asked to judge different cable types from cheap electrical cable to very expensive ‘audio grade’ cable on the same pair of speakers, waffling on about subtle nuances in the differences between each only to be told it was the same cheap cable all along…  In the era of digital audio overpriced cables are an even bigger joke.

When I got into audio as a hobby years ago I discovered I could build kit versions of quality speakers offered by manufactures for much cheaper than the shelf price.  I’ve never looked back.

This is an 'arcadephile' forum not an audiophile forum.  You guys could get all steamed up about control panel ergonomics and the merits of leaf switches over cherries to the nth degree because it’s your (my) passion. Thankfully, in general, it’s a much cheaper hobby than high-end audio.

I worked with a guy a whose passion was high-end cars and motor racing.  Those rounded off sticky figures you were  quoting pbj?  Don’t even apply to that guy. Each to their own…
I’d love to try and make my own pair of speakers one day, that sounds like fun.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2021, 01:23:35 pm »
I don’t need my balls to shake...

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it  :lol

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2021, 04:20:35 am »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...

 In that regard... then you must be taking about a "Bass-Head" type of experience.

 While I do enjoy some thumpy music as well..  I tend to prefer actual Musical music.. rather than just
constant droning thumping.

 Most of what I posted, is about Musical accuracy and clarity... that a generic sub 100$ (or overpriced gaming headphone)
cant replicate.   Im taking having that amazing 3D soundstage... that sounds like you are listening to a room with speaker
playing... Not as if you are hearing headphones playing music "Inside" of your head.

 A lot of people do not know how different the experience is,  and that its very much affordable.

 And as Ive said... new consumer speakers, under then 50k mark... are unlikely able to compete with
the actual dynamic clarity of an Audiophile grade headphone.   Again, this is due to physics scale.

 I mentioned before... for example... that in many songs that Ive heard millions of times in the past,
both on my Techniques (and other) house speakers... as well as lower quality headphones,  I was unable
to make out certain Lyrics that the singer was singing.   However, with Audiophile grade headphone...
and or the Amazing EPI speakers I mentioned..  I was able to actually hear and fully understand
what they were saying.   

 Why?   Because the drivers are that much better at delivering a distortion free image of the music.
Even when multiple instruments and vocals are all going at the same time... Audiophile grade drivers
can keep the separations, and keep things from bleeding into each other.. causing distortions.
(Such as thicker bass, distorting the high end clarity)

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2021, 12:49:25 pm »
Recordings sound better when played through higher quality speakers?

Bro, my mind is blown.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2021, 04:23:09 pm »

 I can only assume that you have Never heard an Audiophile level headphone before. 

You make a lot of assumptions and generalizations. My primary headphones are Oppo PM-2 Planar Magnetic high-resolution, the little brother of the reference PM-1.  Look them up, or maybe you don't have the time...

The experience of hearing high-end speakers above the 10K mark is more than what you hear but what you feel bodily as well, which no headphones at any price can duplicate i.e. physics.

Your statements about "physics" and ported vs passive radiator subs are obvious to people in audio.  My statement about your exaggerations stands, but do continue...

 In that regard... then you must be taking about a "Bass-Head" type of experience.

 While I do enjoy some thumpy music as well..  I tend to prefer actual Musical music.. rather than just
constant droning thumping.

 Most of what I posted, is about Musical accuracy and clarity... that a generic sub 100$ (or overpriced gaming headphone)
cant replicate.   Im taking having that amazing 3D soundstage... that sounds like you are listening to a room with speaker
playing... Not as if you are hearing headphones playing music "Inside" of your head.

 A lot of people do not know how different the experience is,  and that its very much affordable.

 And as Ive said... new consumer speakers, under then 50k mark... are unlikely able to compete with
the actual dynamic clarity of an Audiophile grade headphone.   Again, this is due to physics scale.

 I mentioned before... for example... that in many songs that Ive heard millions of times in the past,
both on my Techniques (and other) house speakers... as well as lower quality headphones,  I was unable
to make out certain Lyrics that the singer was singing.   However, with Audiophile grade headphone...
and or the Amazing EPI speakers I mentioned..  I was able to actually hear and fully understand
what they were saying.   

 Why?   Because the drivers are that much better at delivering a distortion free image of the music.
Even when multiple instruments and vocals are all going at the same time... Audiophile grade drivers
can keep the separations, and keep things from bleeding into each other.. causing distortions.
(Such as thicker bass, distorting the high end clarity)

Just stop.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2021, 06:06:42 pm »
There's an audiophile where I work. He cracks me up with his gold plated fuses and 'specially selected' mains power sockets. As for his £300 power lead that tops it all. His 1 meter power lead must make such an improvement when connected between his stereo and the 200 miles of overhead cable.

If you want a real laugh google Russ Andrews.

And has anybody seen the bags of carefully selected pebbles to cable-tie to your interconnecting cables? These things are priceless.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2021, 08:13:40 pm »
Again, xiaou2 is advocating for $500 products here which are obtainable, but that being said… I frequently wonder if some of the audiophile people are “in on it” much like I suspect half the flat earth people are.  Is the goal to see how absurd you can be and score points when others believe you?  How many people actually buy this stuff?  Maybe I missed my calling.



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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2021, 08:28:27 am »
You non-believers need to see this...

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

and

https://www.russandrews.com/ultrafuse-13a-single/


Read the reviews. Priceless.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2021, 12:47:03 pm »
So the best part about those magic rocks is that they’re into a plastic bag and scotch taped to the cables.  That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about.  Surely this is a send up?




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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2021, 12:54:57 pm »
It is noise reduction tape.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2021, 09:01:22 pm »
Again, xiaou2 is advocating for $500 products here which are obtainable, but that being said… I frequently wonder if some of the audiophile people are “in on it” much like I suspect half the flat earth people are.  Is the goal to see how absurd you can be and score points when others believe you?  How many people actually buy this stuff?  Maybe I missed my calling.

FWIW, there are legitimate products designed to solve issues re: inference and the like. I spent a decade battling ground loop interference in my studio setup before finally getting a ground loop isolator. Completely solved the issues and I wish I'd done that much sooner.

On the flipside, there is a lot of snake oil out there. Unless someone has a legit issue with audio interference, spending money on fancy devices or cabling is a waste.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 09:29:47 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2021, 11:05:25 am »
On the flipside, there is a lot of snake oil out there.

 :soapbox:

The fact that there is so much "snake oil" out there, and that people actually purchase it and think something has changed when they start using it, is demonstrative of how ludicrous all of this really is.  Sound is just electronics and physics.  Stray away from either of those, and one enters the realm of self-delusion, which is almost entirely the result of being poorly educated in either or both of those fields.  This wouldn't be so bad were it not for the seemingly incessant need for most of them to evangelize for useless (or at least overpriced), items of highly questionable value, as though to attempt to justify their shrinking bank accounts as a result of buying it, thereby perpetuating this stupidity. 

An "audiophile" and his money are soon parted.

Caveat: This is not the same as actually identifying and fixing a problem, like noise, hum, distortion, etc...  But you don't need to take out a second mortgage to do these simple things and unless the gear was poorly installed, or of very low quality, those types of issues won't be present anyway.  The people who designed the gear know far more than 99.9% of those who purchase it.

Ropi Jo

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2021, 04:02:13 pm »
This cannot be snake oil.... surely?

This review of "Brilliant Pebbles" sounds convincing enough...

"By the way, I just placed additional Large BPs in your recommended locations in front and to the outside of each speaker -- these locations created startling three dimensional and solid images and revealed harmonic overtones, providing an even more impressive sense of reality and emotional connection to performers, especially singers. The benefits of these new locations are so much more noticeable and intense as to be quite unbelievable, considering the previous benefits of the Clever Little Clock and the other BPs of various sizes."

I'm quite tempted to pop out to the garden and raid the wife's flower pots and freezer bags and see if I can achieve an emotional connection with my Amstrad.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 04:04:34 pm by Ropi Jo »

BadMouth

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2021, 08:51:51 pm »
Lol.

For anyone who is interested:
Check out Ethan Winer's null tester.  He is an audio engineer with decades of experience building studio equipment.

All the null tester does is flip the polarity of one lead and then combine signals.
Everything EXCEPT the difference in the cables is cancelled out.
So if you attach a cheap cable and expensive cable, the output is everything that is different in the signal.   ....only there never is a difference anywhere near big enough for a human to hear by any stretch of the imagination.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2021, 09:36:10 am »
Check out Ethan Winer's null tester.  He is an audio engineer with decades of experience building studio equipment.

Thanks for mentioning Ethan Winer's name.  I was unaware of him.  What a breath of fresh air he is in the vacuum of "audiophile" space.  To fully realize how good we have it with audio today as opposed to 40 years ago, you had to have lived and worked with it throughout that time. This man obviously has.

*edit* and he's a pinball fan  :lol



« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 10:57:19 am by RandyT »

mameotron

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2021, 04:26:56 pm »
Heh, this picture seems appropriate for this thread :)

pbj

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2021, 08:01:40 pm »
You’re gonna end up with a real pansy of a kid with those guidelines.