Software Support > GroovyMAME
Advice on monitor settings for Sony KV-HR36M31
vagrant_17:
I managed to aquire a Sony KV-HR36M31 HD CRT TV, the picture quality on this thing is amazing!
It has RGBHV input on the back.
I'm at loss of how configure it properly in vmmaker, could I get some advice on which monitor preset would be best to start with, or perhaps the right approach to creating a custom preset?
According to the manual it accepts the following resolutions, but I could not find any timing or ranges info in the service manual;
1080i @ 50/60Hz
720p @ 50/60Hz
576p @ 50Hz
576i @ 50Hz
480p @ 60Hz
480i @ 60Hz
buttersoft:
I'll dump a load of advice by editing this post when i have time, hopefully tomorrow :)
EDIT: decided on a new post instead, see below.
vagrant_17:
Awesome! I really appreciate it thank you :cheers:
buttersoft:
The KV-HR36 and 32 sets are, IMO, amazing. Absolutely stunning for displaying current content/movies/consoles/indie games, back to maybe the Wii. And pretty good for older consoles too. A lot of the information here comes from Thumptech, and the rest is from me.
These sets are effectively the same as the US KD-34XBR960/910, but instead of the HDMI port the Oceania KV-HR models have an RGBHV input (via RCA jacks). These CRT’s use a Super Fine Pitch tube which makes the image much clearer (the KV-HX and 970 sets do not have this tube). I’m going to write about the KV-HR sets, and things may not apply to the US models with the HDMI port, or only partially apply.
You should of course always use the RGBHV inputs where possible, using something like a VGA-to-5-BNC cable and then BNC-female to RCA-male adapters. If something outputs YPbPr natively that’s a good option as well.
General Information:
• Native resolutions - 720p and 1080i, I think* and maybe more around those two. The list of input resolutions is much larger, starting with 15kHz 240p/480i and going up to probably about 768p from a PC. The sets are pretty flexible that way, and you shouldn’t need to worry about setting up special modelines beyond 1080i.
• Always input 1080i. Three reasons why. Firstly, it's clearer than 720p. Secondly, for inputting lower res/15kHz, in terms of internal scalers the one in these TV’s is about as good as it gets. It looks okay. But an external scaler like the OSSC or Retrotink is going do a much, much better job (if they do 1080i). Something like a Wii is still going to look great at 480p widescreen, and YMMV for older consoles. If your source/PC will output 1080i, however, you’re better off sorting out your scaling on that end and inputting 1080i into the set. So you don't really need CRT-emudriver or VMM to use these sets. The third reason why you want to use 1080i, over 720p in this case, I’ll come back to.
• The KV-HR32 has overscan. The KV-HR36 does not have this problem. With an uncompressed image, it is not possible to fit a complete 1920x1080 image on a KV-HR32, you lose about 5% around the edges. This is after you’ve tweaked everything you can in the service menu. If you can see an entire 1920x1080 image, it’s been scaled. See below, because this scaling can affect the KV-HR36 too. (EDIT: I have not tried the MID3 setting mentioned by B0nz0beavis, so this might help as well.)
• A video card or inbuilt video often scales a 1080i image without telling you. This can be tested. Use this image on your natively 1080p LCD desktop monitor.
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Notice how the TVL stripes in the centre circle are clean on an LCD, and there’s no blending or patterns over them? Now put this image up in a smaller window on a 1080p monitor and look for moire or patterns in the same places. At 1080i on the KV-HR, if you see *any* patterns or diamond shapes across the stripes, the video output is being scaled. It's not the aperture grille. You can go into your video control panel/ NVCP/ Radeon Settings and disable desktop scaling. If it says it’s already off, turn it on, save, then turn it off again. This may force your set to lose sync, and you may need to try various resolution tweaks – like going to 1080p/30 or /29 or other settings. Even then it’s often not possible to eliminate scaling on 1080i, it was like an unofficial industry standard or something, from when 1080i meant CRT’s/projectors. Any information you can find on this would be interesting. Even with this scaling 1080i is still noticeably clearer than 720p.
• When it comes to eliminating image scaling, a PS4 is about perfect. Those stripes will be clean as clean is. After that, Linux is better than Windows, and HDMI beats VGA. You would need to convert that HDMI to VGA (RGBHV) I use an HDFury2, which is about as good as it gets. Cheaper adapters are a crapshoot. The Tendak one isn’t great. The UGreen ones on aliexpress, with the flat cable + audio, seem pretty good tho. I'm using windows and not sweating it, but the issue is there :)
• Make sure to disable as much of the image processing in the set as you can. DRC in particular. A lot of options grey out above 480p anyway.
Assuming the set is in ok condition, you shouldn’t need to adjust the convergence rings or the yoke. But you *will* need to use the service menu to get the most out of the set.
The Service Menu:
• This is the service manual. https://anonfiles.com/b6i7n6x9ue/kvhr36m31_no_schmeatics_pdf Pages 15 through 55 are the service menu. Be prepared to spend a few weeks camping in there
• Go slowly. Change one setting at a time. Remember to save.
• If you push too far and lose the picture, drop the remote and turn the set off at the power button instead. That will reset things you haven’t saved.
• The settings you want to play with are in the following sections:
o LUMA (brightness, gamma and contrast)
o COLR (colour balance - cutoff is low level, drive is high level)
o DEF1 (geometry part 1)
o DEF2 (geometry part 2, etc)
o DEF3
o DEF4
o OSDP (master black level – set LEVL to 0)
o Landing and Convergence – these are between the SFC and AP categories, which is not stated in the manual. Read sections of the service manual first. Section 4, areas 4.1 (possibly 4.5), and then 4.7 through 4.9. Beam Landing adjustment is fairly straightforward, and will probably be ok already.
• When it comes to geometry settings, generally the ones near the head of any category make the most visible changes (H-size, H-pos, etc). If what you're doing to one particular setting has no visible effect, i wouldn't bother saving it.
• Convergence. This is the big one. Convergence can be adjusted digitally in the service menu. Not in as much detail as a lot of CRT projectors, but still at just over 120 points over the screen. Don’t kid yourself, even if the set is in good shape for being 15yrs old, it could use a tune up.
• The set will have different convergence at different resolutions (1080i vs 720p). (This is the only evidence I have that the set is showing at least two native modes – this convergence difference). The inbuilt grid is 720p, I believe. The set will also have different convergence at different brightness levels - i think due to age. See test grids below for this purpose.
• Practice how to adjust and save things using the remote, how to get to the fine adjustment (vs coarse, the default). Input a 1080i test grid like the ones below, then go into the convergence adjustment and practice switching between your image and the test pattern. Adjustments should be made while looking at your 1080i grid image, not the default one.
• Setting the convergence for 1080i means you should input that resolution whenever possible. 720p is still going to look great, especially if that's the native res of a game or something, and the lower the input resolution the less misconvergence there will be anyway, to the point that you’re not going to notice anything wrong at 15kHz without a lens.
I haven’t really found any need to adjust other settings in the Service Menu, but happy to hear about anything you find out And to take any questions of course.
Test grids:
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vagrant_17:
Wow, what an incredibly informative response :o It is waaay much more then I was expecting, thanks so much for putting the time in buttersoft, huge respect!!!
I can see this TV is going to take some serious invested time.. and I expect to have a fully-grown beard at the end of it.
Well tomorrow, the first plan is relocate the screen to my desk and hope the weight doesn't crush it into a million pieces.. I have a friend coming around to help me shift the 90kg behemoth.
I already have a vga>bnc>rca cable, ready to plug straight into the analog out of the R9 380X.
So your saying that the way to go is always use 1080i output, and let the software do all the scaling.
So I should uninstall emudriver and replace it with the latest adrenaline drivers.
What about switchres though, will it still do it's thing and change refresh rates on the fly?
Mame.ini currently has values set for my old crt setup, I'm guessing I should set all crt_ranges to 'auto', turn modeline generation off and just leave switchres enabled?
It's this area I find particularly confusing :dizzy:
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