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Author Topic: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)  (Read 66152 times)

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Zeosstud

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #160 on: April 23, 2021, 10:43:04 pm »
Sad, but true.. :-(

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Titchgamer

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #161 on: April 24, 2021, 01:39:24 am »
Dang that sucks :(
Not a massive suprise though.

dmckean

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #162 on: April 24, 2021, 02:15:04 am »
It's still a bargain compared to real hardware, but it always sucks to see the price raised.

bobbyb13

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #163 on: April 24, 2021, 03:49:00 am »
I think even at that price they are still effectively losing money on building them.  They are a subsidized educational piece, right?

Global chip drama is not in our favor for sure.

Feels like everything we are familiar with will in a year will cost 25% more than it did only a couple of years ago as it is anyway (chip or no.)
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

Zebidee

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #164 on: April 24, 2021, 09:05:21 am »
Just an FYI that that Terasic DE0-10 Nano board recently had a $35 price hike which has been confirmed to be permanent.

Glad I got 2 of them then
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dmckean

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #165 on: April 24, 2021, 12:59:31 pm »
I think even at that price they are still effectively losing money on building them.  They are a subsidized educational piece, right?

Global chip drama is not in our favor for sure.

Feels like everything we are familiar with will in a year will cost 25% more than it did only a couple of years ago as it is anyway (chip or no.)

I think prices on this stuff is pretty arbitrary really. I doubt anyone is losing money anywhere. I think it has more to do with the fact that most of these parts are produced for the low volume embedded and robotics markets where SOCs are bought in volumes of 10-50 at a time. I think that Terasic is doing runs of several thousand at a time and that's how they've kept the price down.

Take a look at this new Kria SOM from XILINK, it's made for the emerging smart camera market and is being made in volume. It offers quite a bit more than the DE-10 NANO for only about $30 more.

https://www.xilinx.com/products/som/kria/kv260-vision-starter-kit.html

Grasshopper

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #166 on: April 25, 2021, 07:14:10 am »
Damn. That's a shame. I've been very close to buying a Mister for some time now, but the price rise is now making me think twice. Kits are still available on Mouser UK for £135, which isn't too expensive, but you'll have to wait till August to get one...

I think even at that price they are still effectively losing money on building them.  They are a subsidized educational piece, right?

I'm always a bit cynical when manufacturers claim they're selling products below cost for "educational purposes". Most of the time it's just marketing BS. I'd be very surprised if Terasic are actually selling these boards at a loss. After all, they're not a charity.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

KenToad

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #167 on: April 25, 2021, 10:36:32 am »
Getting back to the love fest, I just learned about the MT-32 Pi that you can interface with the Mister to produce perfect recreations of rare and expensive 80's and 90's MIDI synth modules.

However, it doesn't seem to be available to purchase.  Seems like nice metal cases for the Mister also aren't available.

Zeosstud

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #168 on: April 25, 2021, 12:15:33 pm »
Check misteraddons.com I think the aluminum cases are online again..

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Zeosstud

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #169 on: April 25, 2021, 12:18:02 pm »
Scrap that, the pic is there again, but it says sold out already, guess they are pretty popular.. :-)

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dmckean

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #170 on: April 25, 2021, 06:37:39 pm »
Getting back to the love fest, I just learned about the MT-32 Pi that you can interface with the Mister to produce perfect recreations of rare and expensive 80's and 90's MIDI synth modules.

However, it doesn't seem to be available to purchase.  Seems like nice metal cases for the Mister also aren't available.

They're out of stock right now, but you can buy pre-built MT-32 Pi hats here:

https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister-fpga-mt32-pi-hat-v2-1/

I don't think anyone else makes assembled kits yet.

dmckean

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #171 on: April 25, 2021, 06:40:20 pm »
Damn. That's a shame. I've been very close to buying a Mister for some time now, but the price rise is now making me think twice. Kits are still available on Mouser UK for £135, which isn't too expensive, but you'll have to wait till August to get one...

I wouldn't think twice, it's still a bargain. The MiSTer has been the most fun I've had in years with classic gaming.

Zebidee

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #172 on: April 25, 2021, 07:31:14 pm »
Damn. That's a shame. I've been very close to buying a Mister for some time now, but the price rise is now making me think twice. Kits are still available on Mouser UK for £135, which isn't too expensive, but you'll have to wait till August to get one...

I think even at that price they are still effectively losing money on building them.  They are a subsidized educational piece, right?

I'm always a bit cynical when manufacturers claim they're selling products below cost for "educational purposes". Most of the time it's just marketing BS. I'd be very surprised if Terasic are actually selling these boards at a loss. After all, they're not a charity.

It is just differential pricing. You get the same thing when you go to the movies or a museum (cheaper price for students/seniors etc). The manufacturing cost is below their cheaper price for sure, but they charge what they can for people that have the money. That's just business. Looks like demand has gone up driven by FPGA/Mister stuff, supply is still fixed, so they increase the price again. Just business, demand and supply in action.

As long as we keep loving the MiSTer the prices will probably stay high.
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KenToad

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #173 on: April 26, 2021, 10:24:17 am »
Getting back to the love fest, I just learned about the MT-32 Pi that you can interface with the Mister to produce perfect recreations of rare and expensive 80's and 90's MIDI synth modules.

However, it doesn't seem to be available to purchase.  Seems like nice metal cases for the Mister also aren't available.

They're out of stock right now, but you can buy pre-built MT-32 Pi hats here:

https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister-fpga-mt32-pi-hat-v2-1/

I don't think anyone else makes assembled kits yet.

According to YouTube comments, they've been out of stock for months. Maybe someone built several to keep costs low, then just unloaded that small stock to basically fund their own project?

In any case, the Mister accessory market seems to be both limited and expensive. The USB board sells for $50, which is insanely expensive for a product that only exists because Terasic couldn't put a 2nd 2 normal USB ports on the original board (I know that you can buy a dongle, but it really shouldn't have been necessary in the first place). The cost of the main board would seem a lot more reasonable if they didn't force you to accessorize to get decent functionality.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 12:05:40 pm by KenToad »

CraftyMech

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #174 on: June 10, 2021, 11:18:32 pm »
Wahoo, my account still works!

Been awhile, but wanted to chime in about FPGA.

First, regarding chip prices, the ripple effects have spread to just about everything. Even the AVR microcontrollers I use on three different products have been hit by shortages. The BitKit uses the Spartan6 LX9, which normally runs about $16 from Digikey, now up to $21. The Bluetooth module I use on the BitKit and an Apple II product has doubled in price in the last 3 months. Hopefully the market settles down in the next 6 months.

Regarding FPGA, I wanted to clear up a couple misconceptions.

First off, FPGA isn't perfect by default, it really depends on the developer(s) and how much work is put into making the implementation as accurate as possible. Older arcade hardware, especially 8bit, is a mix of asynchronous and synchronous TTL. FPGA likes to be 100% synchronous, it doesn't do well with fuzzy edges and coincidentally aligned clock edges. Sound is also another issue entirely, since a lot of early 80s hardware had analog circuitry to produce certain sounds. Naturally, modeling analog in the digital domain is a challenge, and it takes a solid knowledge of digital signal processing to produce audio output that sounds authentic.

HDL is like code, but it is "synthesized" (compiled) into what are essentially giant look-up tables. It is not accurate to say that FPGA recreates original hardware down to the transistor level, because it doesn't do that at all. FPGA recreates the original logic and timings if done correctly, but it operates completely differently from the original TTL logic. So I like to think of FPGA as hardware simulation, or "re-creation".

It takes a lot of commitment and time to get it right, so much so, that I question my sanity sometimes. I once spent three solid weeks creating low-pass filters from scratch HDL so the Galaxian "rack" noise (the drone sound the aliens make as they move back and forth in formation) would sound authentic. 

MiSTer is a great project, with a lot of talented contributors (like Jotego). I wish more attention was given to the classic cores, some of them need some TLC. When the BitKit is done with it's run, I'd be glad to start contributing, I just don't have the time as long as my own project is active. MiSTer's Galaxian especially needs some love, the "rack" noise really needs help :)

Bottom line, FPGA is great, and I encourage anyone who is interested to dabble with the MiSTer, especially since it runs much more then just 8bit arcade games. Just remember that FPGA is not a silver bullet, and since MAME has been around for a long time, there is a high standard for emulation (software or hardware) to live up to.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 11:20:38 pm by CraftyMech »
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bobbyb13

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2021, 01:45:26 am »
Thank you for some clarification!
I still only understand a fraction of what is going on but every little glimmer of light shined on it all is fun to learn from.

And I greatly appreciate that people smarter than me are interested in seeing these projects through
 :)
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Zebidee

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #176 on: June 11, 2021, 02:04:13 am »
I've got all my bits for the vanilla Mister unit from various places, and tried to install the software Mr Fusion version, but nothing working as yet. But I was tired last night so probably did something wrong.

So looks like I'll have to go back and flash the SD card again, after installing a fresh brain :D

Still waiting on the Mistercade from misteraddons.com, a completely different order - they said "summer".
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csnow

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #177 on: June 11, 2021, 11:42:28 am »
Edited - wrong info posted.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 10:05:10 am by csnow »

wp34

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #178 on: June 11, 2021, 11:48:03 am »
The increased cost combined with the absence of the Nintendo catalog makes it a hard sell.  MAME has gotten very good and it just works and works well.

What happened to Nintendo on the MiSTer?  My understanding is the Nintendo consoles was one of the big draws.

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #179 on: June 11, 2021, 12:33:02 pm »
The increased cost combined with the absence of the Nintendo catalog makes it a hard sell.  MAME has gotten very good and it just works and works well.

What happened to Nintendo on the MiSTer?  My understanding is the Nintendo consoles was one of the big draws.
I am also confused by that comment?

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #180 on: June 11, 2021, 12:48:27 pm »
The increased cost combined with the absence of the Nintendo catalog makes it a hard sell.  MAME has gotten very good and it just works and works well.

What happened to Nintendo on the MiSTer?  My understanding is the Nintendo consoles was one of the big draws.
I am also confused by that comment?

Maybe a reference to rom availability these days and not existence of appropriate cores on MiSTer...?
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Titchgamer

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2021, 01:09:10 pm »
Maybe?

dmckean

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2021, 03:39:05 pm »
MiSTer is a great project, with a lot of talented contributors (like Jotego). I wish more attention was given to the classic cores, some of them need some TLC. When the BitKit is done with it's run, I'd be glad to start contributing, I just don't have the time as long as my own project is active. MiSTer's Galaxian especially needs some love, the "rack" noise really needs help :)

Bottom line, FPGA is great, and I encourage anyone who is interested to dabble with the MiSTer, especially since it runs much more then just 8bit arcade games. Just remember that FPGA is not a silver bullet, and since MAME has been around for a long time, there is a high standard for emulation (software or hardware) to live up to.

This is great news! The MiSTer project really needs someone who's supper passionate about 8-bit arcade games.

dmckean

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2021, 03:42:45 pm »
The increased cost combined with the absence of the Nintendo catalog makes it a hard sell.  MAME has gotten very good and it just works and works well.

What happened to Nintendo on the MiSTer?  My understanding is the Nintendo consoles was one of the big draws.

I guess some of the 8-bit arcade titles like Donkey Kong and Mario Bros. could use more work, but the Nintendo console cores are super solid and the NES core will play all the Vs. titles. I'm confused too.

csnow

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #184 on: June 14, 2021, 09:52:22 am »
Maybe?
Maybe I misspoke.  I thought there was no Donkey Kong core available due to license fears.  Has that changed ? 

Zeosstud

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #185 on: June 14, 2021, 09:55:05 am »
There is a Donkey Kong core on the Mister, has been for years.. There is no Donkey Kong core on the BitKit, which may be what your thinking of perhaps??

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #186 on: June 14, 2021, 10:04:20 am »
There is a Donkey Kong core on the Mister, has been for years.. There is no Donkey Kong core on the BitKit, which may be what your thinking of perhaps??

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Your right, I got them confused.  There was something regarding Donkey Kong that kept me away.  Maybe it was a comment by Haze that the core was poor or something.  I will go back and delete my post - apologies for the error.

Zeosstud

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #187 on: June 14, 2021, 10:15:23 am »
Certainly not a big deal.. :-). I wish there was a DK core for the BitKit, I am sure most do, but the author has made a decision, at least to this point not to include one and I respect that.. It really is a glaring ommision in a Stellar device, I know I would own 2 right now if DK was available, instead I am going to order one tomorrow and am really looking forward to playing many of the games the BitKit does include!!

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #188 on: June 14, 2021, 12:22:26 pm »
Certainly not a big deal.. :-). I wish there was a DK core for the BitKit, I am sure most do, but the author has made a decision, at least to this point not to include one and I respect that.. It really is a glaring ommision in a Stellar device, I know I would own 2 right now if DK was available, instead I am going to order one tomorrow and am really looking forward to playing many of the games the BitKit does include!!

Awesome, just let me know if you have any questions once you receive your BitKit!

Regarding DK, I've been tempted in the past, but over the last few years the BitKit has evolved to embrace a wide variety of games, including oddball underrated titles, so I'm ok with keeping "BitKit weird" as one user put it. There are still a lot of possibilities for future additions, and with limited time to go around, that is where my focus is.

The MiSTer core for DK works fine gameplay wise, it's the sound that is off. Which if you remember back to the early MAME days, has always been the hardest part of that game to get right when emulated. DK presents an extra challenge because of 1) how well the community knows exactly how the game should sound, and 2) many of those sound effects were generated by analog circuits.

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #189 on: June 14, 2021, 12:53:21 pm »
The decision to not include DK is yours alone to make, I totally understand.. I would think sound issues might actually be a draw for you as you certainly spent some time fixing Galaxian.. I am ordering one tomorrow regardless, I am looking forward to adding your BitKit to my cab that I have specifically wired up to accept both PC and Jamma input. I have a 2nd dedicated vertical game pedestal with a MiSTer in it mostly because it does have DK and it's many alternatives, if you ever decide to give DK a shot I would be happy to help test.. :-) I plan on assaulting the BitKit high score database with Pengo being the first on my list..

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Zeosstud

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #190 on: June 15, 2021, 09:11:32 am »
I did a thing.. :-)   Looking forward to some 1 to 1 comparisons.. Up first, Galaxian and Pengo..

Gilrock

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #191 on: June 15, 2021, 09:41:06 am »
So we should change the title to "Welcome to the FPGA LOVE Fest" :)

I've already got the BitKit still sitting in the package and a MisterCade on order.  I still need to modify the PacMan cabinet I bought to have a Jamma harness.  I was kinda waiting to see if I could get the PacMan stencils before I tear the cab apart to restore it.

I have played DK on the Mister and I thought it was great.  I guess having not played on a real one for 30 years and you don't notice any sound issues.  If people who don't even own a Mister weren't telling me it was wrong I wouldn't know better...lol.

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #192 on: June 15, 2021, 09:45:02 am »
I am with you on Donkey Kong, I think we should all gang up on CraftyMech and peer pressure him into building a Donkey Kong core so his sound expertise could become legendary!! Sometimes you just need a little push, you know what I mean.. :-)

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Gilrock

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #193 on: June 15, 2021, 10:12:45 am »
To be honest I was never much of a Donkey Kong fan.  It seemed boring to me when I could step over to Robotron.... :)

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #194 on: June 15, 2021, 01:48:05 pm »
Nobody gave a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about Donkey Kong until that damn movie.


javeryh

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #195 on: June 15, 2021, 03:30:59 pm »
Are you guys feeling OK?

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #196 on: June 15, 2021, 04:12:54 pm »
pbj is full of it.. Donkey Kong was crazy popular before King of Kong.. It was the very first game I played when I learned about Mame, what, in 1997 or so.. When they released The Williams Collection, it was straight to Robotron for sure..

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CraftyMech

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #197 on: June 16, 2021, 08:11:48 am »
I am ordering one tomorrow regardless, I am looking forward to adding your BitKit to my cab that I have specifically wired up to accept both PC and Jamma input. I have a 2nd dedicated vertical game pedestal with a MiSTer in it mostly because it does have DK and it's many alternatives, if you ever decide to give DK a shot I would be happy to help test.. :-) I plan on assaulting the BitKit high score database with Pengo being the first on my list..

There are some good Pengo players on the BitKit leaderboards :) I personally have struggled with Pengo, sometimes I get lucky with the blocks but the Snow Bees always get me.

I'm also working on a mobile app for Android/iOS for uploading scores & firmware updates. The leaderboards have been a fun part of the project, and they are fairly casual and not that serious. I'm hoping with a mobile app making it even easier to upload scores with a screen tap, more BitKit owners will join in.
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CraftyMech

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #198 on: June 16, 2021, 08:19:18 am »
So we should change the title to "Welcome to the FPGA LOVE Fest" :)

I've already got the BitKit still sitting in the package and a MisterCade on order.  I still need to modify the PacMan cabinet I bought to have a Jamma harness.  I was kinda waiting to see if I could get the PacMan stencils before I tear the cab apart to restore it.

There are also a couple Jamma adapter solutions for Pac-Man cabinets that wouldn't require you to modify the harness.

My favorite is the one sold by Paradise Arcade, which works with the Pac power supply, and provides jumpers for enabling P1/P2 Start as action buttons (button 1 & 2 for Jamma). https://paradisearcadeshop.com/collections/pcbs-for-jamma-systems/products/pacjamma-converter

The Paradise adapter is more expensive, you can find a much cheaper adapter at ArcadeShop (including the option for mapping buttons 1&2), but you'll need a second switching power supply for the DC voltages the Jamma standard expects: https://www.arcadeshop.com/i/378/jamma-to-ms.-pac-cab-adapter.htm
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Gilrock

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Re: Welcome to the MiSTer FPGA LOVE Fest ;)
« Reply #199 on: June 16, 2021, 08:35:28 am »
Thanks for the info CraftyMech.  I think I already have 2 of those adapters because I bought it by itself from ArcadeShop for $35 then later went to buy a power supply and found the Midway power supply kit bundled with the adapter for $39.  I bought one of the multicade jamma harnesses and I've got 2 multicade control panel blanks I was going to build that has the joystick, 3 buttons, and a trackball.  I'm building 2 because I wanted a 4 way and an 8 way joystick.