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Author Topic: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please  (Read 10179 times)

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Jimbo

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2021, 11:26:22 am »
You won't be the first to say I'm mad, or the last, I expect.  :laugh2:

I already spotted with the Sanwas that it seems you can hit the diagonals with the restrictor gate in the 4-way position.  We'll see how that affects some of the games soon enough I guess.

I've got a 2lb and a 4lb spring on order for the JLF, and the kowal mod for shorter throw.  I already don't like the stock throw of the JLF so I'm hoping the kowal mod will improve things.  The Seimitsu LS-32 on the other hand has a lovely short throw, and you can't hit the diagonals.

But... I'll let the playtesting do all the talking, and not judge a book by its cover.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 11:35:35 am by Jimbo »

bobbyb13

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2021, 01:07:03 pm »
How is the comparison coming along?

Still waiting for a few sticks to come in the post.  I've already drilled one massive metal test panel ready for them all (all 12 of them!).  I figured I wanted ALL of the joysticks working and at hand when testing so I can quickly switch between them to try and notice any small idiosyncracies between similar sticks.  Some might label me mad (me included).  I figured I'd go the whole hog and it's a fun project anyway and I have a bit of free time.  Plan is to do an in-depth comparison video.

I will have the following joysticks on the panel (all set to 4-way where needed): -

Wico 4-way leaf
GGG Dominux8
GGG Leaf Pro
GGG Pac-Pro
Sanwa JLF
Sanwa JLW
Seimitsu LS-32
Australia MCA
IL Mag-Stick
Nintendo DK stick
Happ/Midway Reunion
Tornado Terry's

Current game list to test is: -

Donkey Kong
Pac-Man
Bomber Man World
Pengo
Ghosts 'n' Goblins
Probably a couple of 2-ways (Galaga/Moon Cresta/etc)

Will be a few weeks yet by the time I've received the remaining sticks, wired them up and taken the video/done the comparison.

If anyone can think of other games that would be good to test with I'm all ears.   :cheers:

The fine line between madness and genius.
Brilliant test idea.

Looking forward to hearing/seeing your results!
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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2021, 01:35:27 pm »
While I applaud the effort, given the entirely subjective nature of joysticks in general, I believe that outside of any of them being outright awful, your conclusions would be based very much on personal preference.  Unless of course you plan to bring in a half-dozen or so other players from different backgrounds to assist in your endeavor.  Some won't want to even bother using a spring-based centering 4-way, regardless of performance, while others won't care as long as it works.  Others still, who have become used to the controls in the original games, won't even consider using something else.  You get the idea.

Also, good 4-way sticks by their nature make pretty poor controllers for 2-way games.  While they do offer better restriction than an 8-way, an 8-way is generally better for these, as restriction tends not to be as important for a two-way title.  There's only two valid and very separated directions, and a properly mapped control can't help but hit them...quickly.  The switch actuation can also be much tighter (very important for these) without concern for excessive "cross-over", which would destroy 4-way play.

There are a LOT of joysticks offered and used by a LOT of different people.  If there were one, or even two "best" joysticks, this wouldn't be the case.

Jimbo

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2021, 02:02:55 pm »
The fine line between madness and genius.
Brilliant test idea.

Looking forward to hearing/seeing your results!

Thanks, it'll be fun!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 02:42:00 pm by Jimbo »

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2021, 03:44:17 pm »
I've got a 2lb and a 4lb spring on order for the JLF, and the kowal mod for shorter throw.  I already don't like the stock throw of the JLF so I'm hoping the kowal mod will improve things.  The Seimitsu LS-32 on the other hand has a lovely short throw, and you can't hit the diagonals.

It might also be worth checking out a Seimitsu LS-32 fitted with a stiffer spring. I'm not sure whether you can buy the springs separately, but a Seimitsu LS-32 fitted with a stiffer spring is called a Seimistu LS-38.
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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2021, 05:28:18 pm »
I'm just happy when a joystick works when it hits every direction.  Not my usual experience in the arcade.


Jimbo

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2021, 06:59:34 am »
Whilst waiting for the last few joysticks to arrive, I thought I'd share some info on what I'm hoping to achieve, and also show some progress in the setup.

The point of this is for me to get to know a bunch of 4-way sticks and figure out (mainly for myself) which ones I like best for which types of games.  I understand that this will be highly subjective, but perhaps some commonalities of feel will present themselves, and if people end up using this as at least a starting point then I will be glad I helped someone.  The aim is not to find one or two "winning" sticks that suit all 4-way games, but I will probably end up recommending one or two for those that just want a single 4-way for, say, a vertical classics cab.

As I've said before, I'm planning on doing this as a video.  I'll start by looking at each of the 12 sticks in detail one by one, then will go through a number of 4-way games, one at a time, playtesting every stick before moving onto the next game.  I am no expert in the chosen games, so this will more be a "layman" comparison about what feels good and what doesn't, highlighting any problems any sticks have with certain games along the way.  For each individial game, I'll try to rank the sticks in order of how suitable they are.  I may also enlist the help of my boy to test the sticks, and (pandemic permitting) maybe another gamer friend or two.

As I plan on building a vertical classics cab in the near future, I'll use the bits I have already for that:  a Ryzen 5 3600 Groovymame PC connecting via an Ultimarc J-Pac to a Hantarex Polo/3 CRT. I'll be using as high a frame-delay as possible to minimise any input lag.  My supergun recently died so I have ended up making a custom jamma harness just for the bits I need for this test (video, gnd, coin/start/button1/button2/up/down/left/right).  I'll connect all the individual joystick directions together using a stripboard, then connect that to the jamma direction inputs on the harness.  This'll mean I can use all the joysticks as if they were one.  Once the joysticks are mounted in the panel, I'll wire them all up to the stripboard.



I've cut all the shaft holes for each of the joysticks, and the mounting holes for the joysticks that I have.  3 more to come soon.  I've also made some basic CP mounting blocks from some 2x4 and put some button holes in: 3 sets of 2 buttons for ease of reaching when moving from stick to stick, and 3 buttons at the top for coin, start and exit.



Will be really interesting testing out all the sticks, figuring out what feels best for specific types of games.  I'll post another update when the remaining sticks come and I've got it all wired up and ready to test.    :cheers:
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 07:24:58 am by Jimbo »

MartyKong

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2021, 03:34:30 pm »
Very cool of Jimbo for doing this. A good 4 way comparison will be helpful to all. I have the Happ/Pac reunion stick which I found reading older threads/comparisons like your doing now. I had to adjust the spring to feel looser on it. Other than that I don't hit diagonals but only use it on 4 way games. The 4 way gate sometimes could feel a bit smoother but I guess I'm used to it. Look forward to reading your findings. Marty

Cynicaster

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Re: yout thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2021, 12:54:32 pm »
For games that I've sold, I've used a HAPP super with a 4 way restrictor (https://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=310) and a ball top replacement.

^ This is my preferred MAME cabinet 4-way solution right here.  I hate bat tops so the ball top mod is just as important as the restrictor. 

I know microswitches are typically deemed rather unsexy, especially when the focus is a generation of games that predominantly used leaf switches.  So, if someone has a microswitch aversion, then a ball top and restrictor are not going to change their mind; I understand that. 

But the way I look at it is, most MAME cabinets are inherently multi-purpose so "authenticity" for specific games kind of goes out the window anyway, so why fuss over it?  Instead, I look for a joystick that is comfortable to use and makes my character reliably go where I want it to go in the widest possible range of 4-way games.

Not sure if this "test" is still planned or ongoing, but other games I'd recommend trying are Nibbler and Frogger.  The former to test the stick's ability to accuratey register multiple direction changes in short succession; the latter to test the stick's ability to accurately (and comfortably) register multiple taps in the same direction.   


   




Jimbo

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Re: yout thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2021, 02:14:57 pm »
For games that I've sold, I've used a HAPP super with a 4 way restrictor (https://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=310) and a ball top replacement.

^ This is my preferred MAME cabinet 4-way solution right here.  I hate bat tops so the ball top mod is just as important as the restrictor. 

I know microswitches are typically deemed rather unsexy, especially when the focus is a generation of games that predominantly used leaf switches.  So, if someone has a microswitch aversion, then a ball top and restrictor are not going to change their mind; I understand that. 

But the way I look at it is, most MAME cabinets are inherently multi-purpose so "authenticity" for specific games kind of goes out the window anyway, so why fuss over it?  Instead, I look for a joystick that is comfortable to use and makes my character reliably go where I want it to go in the widest possible range of 4-way games.

Not sure if this "test" is still planned or ongoing, but other games I'd recommend trying are Nibbler and Frogger.  The former to test the stick's ability to accuratey register multiple direction changes in short succession; the latter to test the stick's ability to accurately (and comfortably) register multiple taps in the same direction.   

Thanks for the info.  Good shout on Frogger and Nibbler, I'll make sure to add those into the testing.

I won't be testing the happ super, I don't have one and can't get hold of the 4-way restrictor as I'm in the UK.  I have 12 sticks to test though so it should be a thorough enough comparison for most people.

I am waiting on 3 sticks to arrive from the US, then will be able to wire up the behemoth control panel and get my teeth stuck in.  Looking forward to it.  Maybe in the mean time I should brush up on my Pac-man so I don't look like a complete numpty!  :cheers:

KenToad

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Re: yout thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2021, 05:30:09 pm »
For games that I've sold, I've used a HAPP super with a 4 way restrictor (https://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=310) and a ball top replacement.

^ This is my preferred MAME cabinet 4-way solution right here.  I hate bat tops so the ball top mod is just as important as the restrictor. 

I know microswitches are typically deemed rather unsexy, especially when the focus is a generation of games that predominantly used leaf switches.  So, if someone has a microswitch aversion, then a ball top and restrictor are not going to change their mind; I understand that. 

But the way I look at it is, most MAME cabinets are inherently multi-purpose so "authenticity" for specific games kind of goes out the window anyway, so why fuss over it?  Instead, I look for a joystick that is comfortable to use and makes my character reliably go where I want it to go in the widest possible range of 4-way games.

Not sure if this "test" is still planned or ongoing, but other games I'd recommend trying are Nibbler and Frogger.  The former to test the stick's ability to accuratey register multiple direction changes in short succession; the latter to test the stick's ability to accurately (and comfortably) register multiple taps in the same direction.     

I have the 4 way restrictor from GGG on a super joystick and it doesn't seem to restrict diagonals very well unless I add a shim spacer so it sits a bit lower down. I don't have the ball top replacement, just the normal super bat top, but I wouldn't get a ball top because the restricted joystick doesn't give me that 4-way joystick feeling. The throw is too long on the super.

Jimbo, I'm looking forward to the comparison.  :cheers:
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 05:31:52 pm by KenToad »

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2021, 11:21:56 pm »
Ms Pac-Man speed up. When it’s fast, executing cardinal directions only while rolling the joystick to make quick turns is when it’s essential to have a 4 way only joystick.

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Re: yout thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2021, 02:07:46 pm »
For games that I've sold, I've used a HAPP super with a 4 way restrictor (https://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=310) and a ball top replacement.

^ This is my preferred MAME cabinet 4-way solution right here.  I hate bat tops so the ball top mod is just as important as the restrictor. 

I know microswitches are typically deemed rather unsexy, especially when the focus is a generation of games that predominantly used leaf switches.  So, if someone has a microswitch aversion, then a ball top and restrictor are not going to change their mind; I understand that. 

But the way I look at it is, most MAME cabinets are inherently multi-purpose so "authenticity" for specific games kind of goes out the window anyway, so why fuss over it?  Instead, I look for a joystick that is comfortable to use and makes my character reliably go where I want it to go in the widest possible range of 4-way games.

Not sure if this "test" is still planned or ongoing, but other games I'd recommend trying are Nibbler and Frogger.  The former to test the stick's ability to accuratey register multiple direction changes in short succession; the latter to test the stick's ability to accurately (and comfortably) register multiple taps in the same direction.     

I have the 4 way restrictor from GGG on a super joystick and it doesn't seem to restrict diagonals very well unless I add a shim spacer so it sits a bit lower down. I don't have the ball top replacement, just the normal super bat top, but I wouldn't get a ball top because the restricted joystick doesn't give me that 4-way joystick feeling. The throw is too long on the super.

Jimbo, I'm looking forward to the comparison.  :cheers:

Interesting... now that I think about it, when I first tried the GGG restrictor about 8 years ago I had to fiddle with the actuator lever thingies on the Super a little bit to dial it in, but once I did that it worked like champ for several years until I wore the joystick out.  I got a new Super and swapped over the restrictor and that one worked fine right out of the box. 

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2021, 10:45:29 pm »
I'll probably get laughed at.....

I am liking the crap joystick they stuck in the 1up countercade v2.  Easy throw, somewhat stiffer and hits all directions, simple design.

I usually buy Happ Supers or the Seimitsu LS-32.  I'll go analog or Xbox controller for 8 way, but not so much now.  All my cabs bar one is 4 way super or Seimitsu.

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2023, 05:32:42 pm »
Hey Jimbo - Did you ever complete your testing? I had bookmarked this thread long ago, but it doesn’t look like much activity has transpired. Just curious.

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Re: your thoughts on current 4-way joysticks please
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2023, 02:30:17 am »
Nice timing on this bump. I actually just messaged him about it before this - he hasn't responded yet. Kinda odd. He's been logged in recently, maybe we just missed him.