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Poll

Best Retro Console?

Nintendo 64
2 (7.7%)
PlayStation
2 (7.7%)
Sega Genesis
3 (11.5%)
SNES
11 (42.3%)
Other (suggest below)
8 (30.8%)

Total Members Voted: 26

  

Author Topic: Best Retro Console?  (Read 14814 times)

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Vigo

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2021, 07:37:29 pm »
JUSTIN
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KenToad

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2021, 08:04:21 pm »
Just reading more about the history of c64 pricing on Wikipedia, it looks like it had several price drops as the cost of chips plummeted in the early 80's and their marketing became more aggressive.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2021, 08:35:59 pm »
Are you talking about games on like an IBM PC, or games on actual gaming computers? Yeah, the best stuff on those PCs were monochromatic text adventures, rpgs and cerebral games with terrible bibs and boops, getting something like a c64 was completely different. You could get a nice wico made joystick and play games that looked far better than many of the NES launch titles, just look at most of what Epyx and other decent companies were putting down 2-3 years before the NES was available -

This describes me.  Since I was still playing and happy with my Atari 800 I didn't get an NES until almost 1990.  Even then it was only after a friend who had one showed me Zelda.  I was never particularly impressed with the graphics or playability of the NES.  The SNES on the other hand was a huge leap and I played the heck out of it.


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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2021, 10:35:31 pm »
I had to think more about this to remember the timeline of these for me...

I think I lost interest in the 2600 after E.T. (seriously) since by then I could ride my bike to play real arcade machines in various spots anyway, and just how bad those games could be comparatively was the end of it.

Then mostly played the Zorks on an IBM, a few games on my Apple Macintosh, watched a kid down the street play Wolfenstein on his C64...

 and then was floored when another buddy showed me his NES.

For something you could have in your house, that wasn't floppy disks or casettes, the leap to that was a big one.

The next leap of commensurate size would have been the jump to PS1 then I would guess?
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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2021, 11:23:34 pm »
Ken, I am not arguing against the significance of the NES, and never said the graphics of the NES were inferior, When I say the NES is comparable to computers, though, I am acknowledging that the NES did do certain things better, and computers at the time did certain things better. It all depends on the spec. I was responding to comments stating that before the NES, video game characters looked like indecipherable dots, which isnít true at all.

I knew tons of people with c64s and other gaming computers, Iím a little young, but my brothers were trading games all the time. I have no clue where you got $600 from, but a C64 retailed for $150 in 1985, and the scrolling was usually fine. Games were far cheaper, too. Price point wasnít the difference.

With an example of scrolling, Commando comes to mind. It came out in late 85, and the NES version a year later. Generally, the C64 version was considered superior in just about every way.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=cdGaZ8Fakok

honestly the best weapon Nintendo had in Hardware was instant booting. No cassette or floppy disks and loading sequences to get you to the game. Blasted the demographics wide open.

FYI - that racing game is Pitstop II, released in 1984. Cool game, as you make pit stops and can control the entire pit crew.There were plenty like it. Commando comes to mind as it was

No man it's cool that you liked the c64, there are some good b and c grade games on it but the NES had almost everything going for it and the c64 had next to nothing.  The NES, like every other 8-bit console in the mid-80's had a d-pad with two action buttons and additionally two menu buttons.  The C64 had a 2600 era wico joystick with a single action button.   That right there limits gameplay mechanics severely.   In addition there wasn't any control standardization on the c64 so you'd be pecking on that keyboard even with a joystick plugged in.   The main reason NES games are superior is because you can do more, and you can do more due to those extra buttons and a more precise directional input method.  The NES also had smooth scrolling graphics with a decent amount of sprites on the screen at a time while the c64 struggled to do any of that without sacrificing something else.   I believe the NES had a better sound chip... either that or nobody that developed games for the c64 knew how to do sound effects and background music.   The most important thing the NES had going for it though was big studio support.   The c64 was very much a hobbyist computer and unfortunately that meant a lot of the game "studios" were a handful of guys in a basement somewhere and it showed.   Meanwhile the videogame all stars like the Nintendo r and d divisions, konami, capcom and all the rest were releasing all their AAA titles on the NES and similar consoles.  The c64 had a few things going for it but they don't effect gameplay that much.   More colors could be displayed in certain modes, obviously without game carts games could theoretically be larger, and of course disk and tape drives meant piracy ran rampant.  In theory it's easier to develop for, but just from what I understand mind you, making games of a higher quality meant pure assembly programming and having to know the quirks of the hardware so it's probably a wash on that one. 

Yes there is a lot of fun stuff to play and do on a c64 but at it's heart it's a computer, not a gaming console and the slight but distinct differences made it inferior hardware that the big developers just didn't want to work on.  Again, the hardware aspect isn't that important or else everyone would have gotten a master system back in the day but the big developers not making games for it (or at least not with their best teams) does.  Also let's not kid ourselves it's a suped up version of the VIC 20, which is early 80's era tech trying to compete with mid 80's tech.

PC gaming didn't become a contender until Microsoft consolidated the market place,  developers could program a game for one OS (Dos or Windows) instead of a million variations of hobby computers and thus larger developers were actually willing to make AAA games for the PC.   

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2021, 11:36:13 pm »
I guess I should address the commando thing.   Commando on the NES was a poorly coded game as it was towards the beginning of the console.   The C64 version obviously was coded better for whatever reason.   That being said the graphics are inferior and the reason it scrolls smoothly is due to the simplicity of graphics.  Early NES games weren't always great.   That being said I think you'll be hard pressed to find c64 titles comparable to late 80's nes games.   

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2021, 12:10:36 am »

Dude, you can say what you want about the C64, I get it, you didn't experience it, and I was never trying to call that particular computer as better than the NES. It did go toe to toe with it on a number of ports, and actually had lots of AAA titles, but I am not a loyalist, and my point was we didn't magically go from action heroes being dots to being fully fleshed out characters with the NES. By the time the NES was available internationally, it was already 3 year old tech, which only adds to why it is so remarkable.


I believe the NES had a better sound chip... either that or nobody that developed games for the c64 knew how to do sound effects and background music.

However, for the record, you are gonna get real ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- from most chip tune enthusiasts for knocking the SID sound chip.  :lol That isn't me saying that. It is just a fact, and there isn't anything wrong with the NES sound, it was great, but just not as brilliant. The SID was hands down the favorite of game musicians because of how well they could manipulate it. I think it may have lacked the channels that the NES had, total 4, but they could modulate the wavelength and overclock notes so imperceptibly fast that it created chords. It made for some devastatingly awesome music, and games did use it. Youtube SID music, and you will find thousands of hours of it, excellent stuff on the original chip. Here is an example, and this song couldn't be reproduced on the NES.






 


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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2021, 12:22:32 am »
I guess I should address the commando thing.   Commando on the NES was a poorly coded game as it was towards the beginning of the console.   The C64 version obviously was coded better for whatever reason.   That being said the graphics are inferior and the reason it scrolls smoothly is due to the simplicity of graphics.  Early NES games weren't always great.   That being said I think you'll be hard pressed to find c64 titles comparable to late 80's nes games.

I could list of a bunch of c64 games that were as good as their NES counterparts, if not better. TMNT, Skate or Die, Maniac Mansion, Metal Gear, Gauntlet, etc, and C64 games that were better than the comparable game on the NES - Kikstart II vs excitebike for example. This isn't a dick measuring contest though, I never said the C64 was better. By the time the NES came out, both it and the C64 was old tech the world had already seen, and stuff like the Atari ST and Amiga were on the market. The NES was quality games that were easy to approach. It was the iPhone of the time. That isn't a knock.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2021, 12:55:01 am »

Dude, you can say what you want about the C64, I get it, you didn't experience it, and I was never trying to call that particular computer as better than the NES. It did go toe to toe with it on a number of ports, and actually had lots of AAA titles, but I am not a loyalist, and my point was we didn't magically go from action heroes being dots to being fully fleshed out characters with the NES. By the time the NES was available internationally, it was already 3 year old tech, which only adds to why it is so remarkable.


I believe the NES had a better sound chip... either that or nobody that developed games for the c64 knew how to do sound effects and background music.

However, for the record, you are gonna get real ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- from most chip tune enthusiasts for knocking the SID sound chip.  :lol That isn't me saying that. It is just a fact, and there isn't anything wrong with the NES sound, it was great, but just not as brilliant. The SID was hands down the favorite of game musicians because of how well they could manipulate it. I think it may have lacked the channels that the NES had, total 4, but they could modulate the wavelength and overclock notes so imperceptibly fast that it created chords. It made for some devastatingly awesome music, and games did use it. Youtube SID music, and you will find thousands of hours of it, excellent stuff on the original chip. Here is an example, and this song couldn't be reproduced on the NES.



I spent a several days checking out C64 games on my MiSTer shortly after I got it and it's amazing how many completely ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- games have absolute bangin' music. I definitely get the SID music thing, it's awesome.


Vigo

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2021, 01:06:31 am »

I spent a several days checking out C64 games on my MiSTer shortly after I got it and it's amazing how many completely ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- games have absolute bangin' music. I definitely get the SID music thing, it's awesome.



:lol I think it just has something to do with the fact that game programmers at the time did everything - design work, project management, coding, art, you name it. The musicans are given the exact same project time to do only one thing, so they had time to hammer out killer music while waiting for everyone else to finish their soul draining work.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2021, 01:09:37 am »
That SID track is pretty cool and atmospheric. I think that I appreciate synthesized music more now than I did in the 80's. Thanks for sharing.

I guess the Famicom/NES was even more impressive when it released in the Japanese market in 1983. And we in the US missed out on all that sweet expanded audio on the disk system and on Konami and Sunsoft special chip carts.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2021, 01:22:51 am »
Going after C64 music is amusing, musicians were using those things for 20 years.   :lol

I did the expansion audio mod on my top loader.  It was a weird decision by Nintendo not to have support for it on the NES, but it honestly isnít a gigantic leap forward on the games that support it.  Iíd call the Castlevania 3 sound track a wash in terms of which is better.


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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2021, 01:30:49 am »
That SID track is pretty cool and atmospheric. I think that I appreciate synthesized music more now than I did in the 80's. Thanks for sharing.

I guess the Famicom/NES was even more impressive when it released in the Japanese market in 1983. And we in the US missed out on all that sweet expanded audio on the disk system and on Konami and Sunsoft special chip carts.

 :cheers: Glad you enjoyed it.

Yeah, it must have been really interesting getting in on the Famicom side of things for Nintendo. On one side, they ended up the guinea pigs, and sometimes got the less tested out stuff, like how the original Famicom controllers didn't unplug...but on the other side, they got everything, and got it much earlier, and there was a lot of fan service going on. I heard Mario 3 was delayed like 2 years almost.

Yeah, I heard about how they had the expanded audio and how some of the western NES music had to be simplified for our cartridges, would have been great to have that here.


Going after C64 music is amusing, musicians were using those things for 20 years.   :lol

I did the expansion audio mod on my top loader.  It was a weird decision by Nintendo not to have support for it on the NES, but it honestly isnít a gigantic leap forward on the games that support it.  Iíd call the Castlevania 3 sound track a wash in terms of which is better.



I didn't know that was a thing. Is that to work specifically with your Everdrive cart? I am assuming that would do nothing with a US cart inserted.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2021, 01:45:39 am »
You solder a jumper wire in your everdrive from the expansion audio pin to an unused one.  Then you add a resistor from that pin inside your system to the audio transistor output trace.  Unfortunately thereís only one blurry photo from 2004 online that shows you how to do it, but itís really easy.  Then you run the translation patch on the Famicom castlevania 3 rom and youíre good to go.


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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2021, 02:07:22 am »
Makes sense. Thanks for detailing. Iíll have to look at the everdrive route again, and maybe give it a shot. I have been using the mini lately, and it is what it is. I canít complain, but I have been flipping a bunch of my consoles to play on flash memory.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2021, 03:02:11 am »
I did the expansion audio mod as well. There seemed to be some difference in opinion as to how strong of a resistor to use. I can't remember what type I used. I installed a switch just in case there was too much audio buzz, but it hasn't been a problem, so I usually just leave the expansion audio enabled.

Mr. Gimmick has incredible expansion audio music. I slightly prefer Castlevania 3's expansion audio, mainly for the deeper sound, but yeah the non-expansion version was great, too. I also feel like the Japanese original is the better game, being more balanced. And the Japanese soundtrack is really bad without the expansion audio playing (or playing poorly, as it did on earlier versions of the everdrive firmware).

The disk original versions of Kid Icarus, Metroid, and Zelda are interesting to hear.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 03:07:14 am by KenToad »

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2021, 07:37:59 am »
If you're going to expand this discussion to include home computers, then that changes everything, especially in Europe where computers were vastly more popular than consoles, at least until the early 90s.

By the time the NES appeared in about 1987, most European gamers would already have been heavily invested in one of the many 8 bit computers that existed at that time. And anyone thinking of upgrading is far more likely to have bought an Atari ST or Commodore Amiga than a NES. At that time, the NES wasn't even on most people's radar.

The Amiga 500 was far more powerful than the NES and appeared at about the same time as the NES in Europe. It's difficult to overstate how groundbreaking the Amiga 500 was. Its graphics and sound capabilities were comparable to those of the SNES and Megadrive. It also came with a sophisticated multitasking UNIX-like operating system with a proper GUI front end. This was at a time when IBM PCs were still using MSDOS. It's just a shame that Commodore screwed up the marketing so badly.
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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2021, 10:42:34 am »
If you're going to expand this discussion to include home computers, then that changes everything, especially in Europe where computers were vastly more popular than consoles, at least until the early 90s.

By the time the NES appeared in about 1987, most European gamers would already have been heavily invested in one of the many 8 bit computers that existed at that time. And anyone thinking of upgrading is far more likely to have bought an Atari ST or Commodore Amiga than a NES. At that time, the NES wasn't even on most people's radar.

The Amiga 500 was far more powerful than the NES and appeared at about the same time as the NES in Europe. It's difficult to overstate how groundbreaking the Amiga 500 was. Its graphics and sound capabilities were comparable to those of the SNES and Megadrive. It also came with a sophisticated multitasking UNIX-like operating system with a proper GUI front end. This was at a time when IBM PCs were still using MSDOS. It's just a shame that Commodore screwed up the marketing so badly.

Yeah and it cost a small fortune too.  The ST was far cheaper.  If we are talking about home computers - then the TI994/a was the first 16 bit computer to be priced properly in 1984 $99 with a $25 rebate.  Then the Radio Shack Coco, which was another favorite.  The CBM 64 enjoyed the most of the market.  The UK market was diverse enough, but most of the early PCs like the Acorn Atom and the ZX80 was more kit based.  My parents shipped me off to boarding school and bought me an Amiga 2000, it was a great ice breaker to have that in your room.  Most of the kids there had BBC Model B or Electrons. I do remember the Teeside Cracking Service where we got most of our games and demos.  The computer class only had Minitel terminals that was teletext based and a Vax mainframe linked to the local University.  I learned more about computers there than in Uni.   ;D

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2021, 10:52:35 pm »
If you're going to expand this discussion to include home computers, then that changes everything, especially in Europe where computers were vastly more popular than consoles, at least until the early 90s.

By the time the NES appeared in about 1987, most European gamers would already have been heavily invested in one of the many 8 bit computers that existed at that time. And anyone thinking of upgrading is far more likely to have bought an Atari ST or Commodore Amiga than a NES. At that time, the NES wasn't even on most people's radar.

The Amiga 500 was far more powerful than the NES and appeared at about the same time as the NES in Europe. It's difficult to overstate how groundbreaking the Amiga 500 was. Its graphics and sound capabilities were comparable to those of the SNES and Megadrive. It also came with a sophisticated multitasking UNIX-like operating system with a proper GUI front end. This was at a time when IBM PCs were still using MSDOS. It's just a shame that Commodore screwed up the marketing so badly.

Yeah and it cost a small fortune too.  The ST was far cheaper.  If we are talking about home computers - then the TI994/a was the first 16 bit computer to be priced properly in 1984 $99 with a $25 rebate.  Then the Radio Shack Coco, which was another favorite.  The CBM 64 enjoyed the most of the market.  The UK market was diverse enough, but most of the early PCs like the Acorn Atom and the ZX80 was more kit based.  My parents shipped me off to boarding school and bought me an Amiga 2000, it was a great ice breaker to have that in your room.  Most of the kids there had BBC Model B or Electrons. I do remember the Teeside Cracking Service where we got most of our games and demos.  The computer class only had Minitel terminals that was teletext based and a Vax mainframe linked to the local University.  I learned more about computers there than in Uni.   ;D

my gaming progression:

pong
atari 2600
Ti-99/4a (silver case) was my first PC.
i typed A LOT of programs out on that then saved them to tape.
I still have it somewhere and found a few cartridges in the dig site I call my basement.
A-mazing and micro surgeon.

after that I went to the C-128 then amiga 500.
I should still have both the 128 and amiga somewhere.
however my mom found a c64 in her basement and i have zero idea where it came from. LOL!
I didn't buy a PC until commodore went out of business.

I will say I have min versions of the NES, SNES, and i've really only explored the genesis.
i just let my brother borrow it so i'll be looking at the NES for a bit.
I just wasn't a console person.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2021, 11:14:01 pm »
I had a Ti 99/4a I bought at a garage sale.  What a weird system.  Enjoyed picking up cartridges and peripherals at swap meets for practically nothing.  Didnít do a hell of a lot with it, but enjoyed making the speech module cuss.


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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2021, 11:29:35 am »
Wow so many replies! Thanks for voting guys, I myself will go with the majority and say the SNES. I may even purchase the re-released version so my kids can experience it  ;D

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2021, 12:25:56 pm »
Wow so many replies! Thanks for voting guys, I myself will go with the majority and say the SNES. I may even purchase the re-released version so my kids can experience it  ;D

Can't go wrong with the SNES. They are easy to hack too, in case you want to add more games. You can also get wireless pads for them pretty easily.

I had a Ti 99/4a I bought at a garage sale.  What a weird system.  Enjoyed picking up cartridges and peripherals at swap meets for practically nothing.  Didnít do a hell of a lot with it, but enjoyed making the speech module cuss.


Never owned one, but I always liked the look, speech module is really cool. No Flashrom99?


my gaming progression:

pong
atari 2600
Ti-99/4a (silver case) was my first PC.
i typed A LOT of programs out on that then saved them to tape.
I still have it somewhere and found a few cartridges in the dig site I call my basement.
A-mazing and micro surgeon.

after that I went to the C-128 then amiga 500.
I should still have both the 128 and amiga somewhere.
however my mom found a c64 in her basement and i have zero idea where it came from. LOL!
I didn't buy a PC until commodore went out of business.

I will say I have min versions of the NES, SNES, and i've really only explored the genesis.
i just let my brother borrow it so i'll be looking at the NES for a bit.
I just wasn't a console person.

Nice! You went a pretty hard computer route. I had a Vic 20 and a C64 as a kid, but didn't touch computers much until the Power Mac 5200. Would have loved an Amiga, just a very cool gen of computer games where the games didn't have to be large scale to be great, but they could be. Hey, if you have no emotional attachment to that c64, I might make you an offer.   ;D

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2021, 04:29:01 pm »
Wow so many replies! Thanks for voting guys, I myself will go with the majority and say the SNES. I may even purchase the re-released version so my kids can experience it  ;D

Can't go wrong with the SNES. They are easy to hack too, in case you want to add more games. You can also get wireless pads for them pretty easily.

I had a Ti 99/4a I bought at a garage sale.  What a weird system.  Enjoyed picking up cartridges and peripherals at swap meets for practically nothing.  Didnít do a hell of a lot with it, but enjoyed making the speech module cuss.


Never owned one, but I always liked the look, speech module is really cool. No Flashrom99?


my gaming progression:

pong
atari 2600
Ti-99/4a (silver case) was my first PC.
i typed A LOT of programs out on that then saved them to tape.
I still have it somewhere and found a few cartridges in the dig site I call my basement.
A-mazing and micro surgeon.

after that I went to the C-128 then amiga 500.
I should still have both the 128 and amiga somewhere.
however my mom found a c64 in her basement and i have zero idea where it came from. LOL!
I didn't buy a PC until commodore went out of business.

I will say I have min versions of the NES, SNES, and i've really only explored the genesis.
i just let my brother borrow it so i'll be looking at the NES for a bit.
I just wasn't a console person.

Nice! You went a pretty hard computer route. I had a Vic 20 and a C64 as a kid, but didn't touch computers much until the Power Mac 5200. Would have loved an Amiga, just a very cool gen of computer games where the games didn't have to be large scale to be great, but they could be. Hey, if you have no emotional attachment to that c64, I might make you an offer.   ;D

My parents only bought the Ti  because brand names had them on clearance.
I didn't even know what a Vic was then and my school just had the apple 2 which they couldn't afford.

I have to make sure my commodore 128 still exists.


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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2021, 05:55:22 pm »
Yeah, I think these were doing a lot of computer clearance sales at the time. Between that and the common stretch of a sales pitch that the machines were good for both gaming and to help mom and dad do their finances, that how most computer companies they sold their machines. I never knew anyone with an Apple II, but it seems everyone knew them from school.

Definitely hope your C128 does indeed exist and is sitting somewhere safely for you. No pressure on the C64 offer, but let me know if you do want to let go of it, I have been passively been looking for a C64 for the last few months, so I have to ask.  :)

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2021, 07:12:36 am »
Even so, the graphics, sound, and especially play control of the NES were a huge leap above the C64 and other home computers of the day.

Woah woah woah.  SOUND?!  Youíre dead wrong on sound.  The C64ís SID chip was far superior to the NESís sound capabilities.  Itís one of the reasons why some games I enjoyed MORE on the C64 than the NES.  More simultaneous sounds, awesome synth capabilities, speech synthesis, etc.
 
NES for the W ongraphics? Absolutely , no question.. but C64 has the edge on sound.

https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?t=430442


Go listen to paperboy or commandoís soundtrack on c64, they were dope.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2021, 05:54:47 pm »
In the late 80's I had a job working in a college where I basically managed all the AV and computer equipment for students.  One day all these boxes were delivered containing Apple II e computers.  I set up a 'Lab' for students to use these green screen Apple's mainly for word processing classes in Zardax which came on 5 1/4 floppies.

In the afternoon when it was quiet I'd sit in my glass walled office playing on my Commodore 64.  I'm sure the students could hear the amazing sounds of the C64 as they pecked away on their Apples   :lol.

I also had one of the first Amiga 1000s when they came out, that thing was incredible.  It would be quite a few years before PCs matched the overall capability of that machine. 

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2021, 08:46:59 pm »
In the late 80's I had a job working in a college where I basically managed all the AV and computer equipment for students.  One day all these boxes were delivered containing Apple II e computers.  I set up a 'Lab' for students to use these green screen Apple's mainly for word processing classes in Zardax which came on 5 1/4 floppies.

In the afternoon when it was quiet I'd sit in my glass walled office playing on my Commodore 64.  I'm sure the students could hear the amazing sounds of the C64 as they pecked away on their Apples   :lol.

I also had one of the first Amiga 1000s when they came out, that thing was incredible.  It would be quite a few years before PCs matched the overall capability of that machine.

HA!
I remember playing Eye of the beholder on my buddies $2500 Dos machine he got for college because he was going for computer science then showing him eye of the beholder on my $500 amiga 500.
he was just like:  ???
he couldn't believe how good it looked.



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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2021, 10:47:19 pm »
I also had one of the first Amiga 1000s when they came out, that thing was incredible.  It would be quite a few years before PCs matched the overall capability of that machine.
Still kick myself for doing the trade-in offer for the Amiga 2000, but at least I kept that one.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2021, 07:56:38 am »
The first computer I owned was a ZX81. Unfortunately, it was pretty much unusable due to Sinclair's terrible quality control. You had just about enough time to load a short program from audio tape before it would crash due to overheating which was very frustrating. I got it replaced several times, but the fault was never fixed. So I gave up and asked for a refund.

I used the refunded money to purchase a second-hand Acorn Atom, and never looked back. It was awesome compared to the ZX81. It remains my favourite computer to this day.

I then sold the Atom a couple of years later to fund the purchase of a BBC Micro. It's a decision I still regret to this day, particularly because Atoms now go for silly money on Ebay. The BBC Micro was also an awesome machine, and objectively better than the Atom in every way. But I'll always have a soft spot for the Acorn Atom as it was my first real computer.

Many years later, and a few weeks before Commodore went bust, I bought an Amiga 1200. It was a great machine, but with hindsight, I wish I'd bought an Amiga earlier during the platform's heyday.

Eventually, when it became clear that Commodore wasn't going to be resurrected, I reluctantly bought a PC. And I've mostly used boring generic PCs and Laptop's ever since.
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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2021, 12:58:09 pm »
Even so, the graphics, sound, and especially play control of the NES were a huge leap above the C64 and other home computers of the day.

Woah woah woah.  SOUND?!  Youíre dead wrong on sound.  The C64ís SID chip was far superior to the NESís sound capabilities.  Itís one of the reasons why some games I enjoyed MORE on the C64 than the NES.  More simultaneous sounds, awesome synth capabilities, speech synthesis, etc.
 
NES for the W ongraphics? Absolutely , no question.. but C64 has the edge on sound.

https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?t=430442


Go listen to paperboy or commandoís soundtrack on c64, they were dope.

I'll give them a listen at some point. The article you linked has the NES having more sound channels, while the C64 had fewer channels that could be manipulated to produce a wider range of tones.

Given the number of classic music tracks on the NES, I still can only imagine that the C64 has potentially better sound. It's like if you give Josh Bell an off-the-shelf violin and some amateur violinist a Stradivarius. Who would you rather listen to?

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2021, 03:32:01 pm »
Yeah, trying to give a fair assessment, you will probably have an overall better sound experience on an NES from a gaming perspective due to the channels and the ability to play a lot of tunes. Some C64 games had sound effects cut into one channel of the music when playing, other games had even no sound effects and all you heard was the music. The NES had a good chip, and it honestly wasn't too far behind the SID, but it was not often utilized like the SID.

One thing that makes the SID more legendary, other than the chip itself was just the circumstance of it. The commodore was about the first computer that ended up being more versatile than just blips and boops, and the chip's level of ability was honestly accidental... the video game industry was the wild west, programmers could work on what they wanted, and this new ability instantly enraptured many new programmer/musicians. C64 publishers were constantly pushing the envelope and learned how to code music exceptionally. Combine that with the fact that the commodore has extremely limited space constraints, and musicians would be making a music library of one or two songs for the entire game. These people were set out to make their opus on each game, while an NES musician may be tasked with 15 songs for a single title. I have the impression many NES musicians looked at the composing, then translated it to chip tune with the perspective more like a midi tool. SID musicians experimented with the chip in more of a jam session way and built songs around what they could invent from the chip.

So to give an example of what I mean, take a listen to Silver Surfer on the NES, the reason I chose this one is because the game was produced by Arcadia, which was formerly Mastertronic, a huge budget C64 publisher. While this game is ass, the composer here had music for at least 15 ZX and C64 games under his belt when he made this for the NES. I think you will notice there is a ton of atmosphere. There are layered, wide selections of different instruments and not only standard 8 bit blip notes, but long, varying pitch tones woven in. In short there is a lot of dimension to the sound. Not casting this on all NES games, but NES typically could be the same hook over and over and is often more memorable for well composed, tune rather than the sound squeezed out of the chip itself. Most NES 3rd party publishers jumped from Arcade to NES, and at least to me, the lack of creative chip usage is just noticeable.





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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2021, 04:16:16 pm »
Famicom expansion audio > all

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2021, 03:16:16 am »
I'll give them a listen at some point.

Take a look (lend an ear to?) the works of Rob Hubbard, Martin Galway, David Whittaker, Chris Huelsbeck, Maniacs of Noise. BITD I would obtain games just because of their music.
                  

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2021, 04:24:33 am »

I've decided that the Apple Pippin is the best console  8)


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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2021, 10:28:14 am »
I'll give them a listen at some point.

Take a look (lend an ear to?) the works of Rob Hubbard, Martin Galway, David Whittaker, Chris Huelsbeck, Maniacs of Noise. BITD I would obtain games just because of their music.

Thanks for the recommendations! Of those names, I only recognize Huelsbeck from the Turrican games.

I recently managed to emulate midi sound on the X68000 by connecting the Roland MT-32 emulator Munt to the X68000 emulator XM6 and discovered that Gemini Wing has an amazing "hidden" soundtrack on the X68000. It reminded me of playing Midnight Resistance on the Genesis for the first time and being impressed that the console soundtrack was even better than the arcade original.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 10:30:35 am by KenToad »

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2021, 11:17:39 am »
I would also point out that while state of the art then, it's just another 16 bit console now.   Yeah let's play those all time classic neogeo titles like.... ummm.... and don't forget..... uhhh....   Oh but there's King of Fighters and Metal Slug so I guess two franchises make it the best??
The SNES is the best retro console, the quantity and more importantly the quality of games is just unmatched.

The NeoGeo was no where near the best retro console; but it ranks up there with CPS2 as one of the best arcade platforms.
Avoiding the KOF and the Slugs, there are a TON of fantastic games (and serieseseseses)  on neogeo. If you can only think of Metal Slug and KOF than that's your problem.

Just off the top of my head:
Aero Fighters/Sonic Wings
Baseball Stars
Samurai Shodown series
Sengoku series
Shock Troopers series
Last Blade series
Blazing Star (Pulstar is just too unforgivably difficult)
Zed Blade


and MOTHER TWERKING WINDJAMMERS! Seriously, the dog & Frisbee mini-game needs to be its own standalone game.
I'll admit I like the Stakes Winners games, but I know that's not the norm, feel free to judge.


Now I'm not gonna lie, the NES port of baseball stars was a blast and a game a sunk a lot of time into it as a kid, but which game looks better to you?

or
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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2021, 11:42:00 am »
I liked American Horseshoes on neo geo.

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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2021, 02:44:32 pm »
And Neo Turf Masters is the best golf game ever made!

Blazing Star and Pulstar was made by the same dev team, but I would give Pulstar more props because it can be attached as a spiritual successor to the R-type series.  It was made by ex-Irem developers as well. Don't let hard games dissuade you, R-type is regarded as one of the top shoot-em-ups of all time, and it's tough as nails.


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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2021, 02:53:32 pm »
Quote
And Neo Turf Masters is the best golf game ever made!

---smurfing--- golf.


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Re: Best Retro Console?
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2021, 04:45:31 pm »
Blazing Star and Pulstar was made by the same dev team, but I would give Pulstar more props because it can be attached as a spiritual successor to the R-type series.  It was made by ex-Irem developers as well. Don't let hard games dissuade you, R-type is regarded as one of the top shoot-em-ups of all time, and it's tough as nails.

Pulstar is "too unforgivably difficult" to suggest for people to play who aren't into shmups; and if they are into shmups they already know about it.

Pebble Beach Golf Links on the Sega Saturn is the greatest golf game ever.
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