GUN2CRT, the new universal CRT lightgun adapter

[JayBee]

Hey guys,

Most of you probably know me already for my GUN4IR system, the lightgun system that works on pretty much any system/screen.

I have been teasing it for a while now, but here I officially announce my next upcoming lightgun system, that this time is focused only on CRT based gun.
It will take the shape of a VGA/USB box that will allow you to plug any Guncon/G-Con45 compatible gun on any system with a CRT screen.

Here are few of the features of that system;

• Plug and play, just connect the adapter to your device and connect a GCon to it, and you're ready to go.
• No IR sensor or any other special device needed. As it's using the native GCon protocol, that uses analog CRT raster, it will work out of the box
• No special software/processing needed. Like my other system, it will have a standard input that works on any system (Windows, Linux, RPi, MiSTerFPGA...)
• No need for special switches for different video mode. The device should be detecting every video mode automatically and adapt to it.

Here is a small demo of it working on the MiSTerFPGA;

[dmckean]

Great job!

This is really impressive.

[opt2not]

I want this!

Would love to use a guncon on an arcade cab using the MiSTer.

[KenToad]

VGA only?

[Titchgamer]

Cant wait for this, GCon has always been the mother of all lightguns

[JayBee]

VGA only?

VGA is needed to connect from the host to the adapter yes, but the output to the TV/monitor can be either VGA or any RGBs capable cable like scart 

[sonik]

This is amazing!
I'm trying to do exactly something like this. Then i hit a wall... Can't make proper use of the guncon without reading the composite video signal.
My idea was to "glue" two arduino libs. One is a lib to use a PS controller on a arduino (with a very good lib by the way). Another is to use a arduino as a usb mouse. :-P
You plan on making it open source? Also, you say VGA... as as in 31Khz? The original guncon can do it?
If you need any tester count me in!

[KenToad]

VGA only?

VGA is needed to connect from the host to the adapter yes, but the output to the TV/monitor can be either VGA or any RGBs capable cable like scart 

Living in the USA, I have zero experience with SCART. I've only ever used VGA on old computer monitors.

I have a Trinitron that has component, composite, and S-video. I have a raspberry pi hooked up through composite. I guess that this wouldn't be compatible with the GUN2CRT?

Getting a pi working with the GunCon 1 or 2 sounds like a dream come true.

[dmckean]

VGA only?

VGA is needed to connect from the host to the adapter yes, but the output to the TV/monitor can be either VGA or any RGBs capable cable like scart 

So this thing won't pass through component video if you're using a MiSTer?

[markc74]

Count me interested in this. The original crt light guns are a level above anything I've seen using LEDs. Following...

[Arroyo]

Ditto following.

[flybynight]

Wow this is great. 

I've spent lots on crts guns like usb2gun, actlabs and dabbled with ancient 32 bit windows builds of Acorns wingun guncon drivers. Out of nowhere you come up with this!

How is it tracking and targeting in your video without flashing?

Will it work with groovymame "super resolutions" on crt?

I'll take 2 please

[JayBee]

Living in the USA, I have zero experience with SCART. I've only ever used VGA on old computer monitors.

I have a Trinitron that has component, composite, and S-video. I have a raspberry pi hooked up through composite. I guess that this wouldn't be compatible with the GUN2CRT?

Getting a pi working with the GunCon 1 or 2 sounds like a dream come true.

So this thing won't pass through component video if you're using a MiSTer?

So far my adapter only works with RGBHV (VGA) connection, but works at any resolution from 240p to 960p.
It also contains a sync combiner that will allow you to use either RGBHV for PC CRT or RGBS for TV screens.
I could add a transcoder/sync splitter if there is enough demand, but it would increase the price and complexity of the device a lot.
And my goal is to keep it simple and affordable for everyone 
But I might consider add on modules in the future, if enough people ask for it.

Count me interested in this. The original crt light guns are a level above anything I've seen using LEDs. Following...

I agree, most led based system are really not that good, and the CRT guns will always be the best for CRT monitors.
However my other advance led based system (GUN4IR) is working fairly well compared this one (I should make a comparison video some day).

To sum up the weakness and strength for each;
Both my IR and CRT system provide the same degree of accuracy
The IR system has a bit lower latency in most cases because you don't have to wait for the raster.
The CRT only works on CRT obviously.
The CRT needs screen flashing for darker games.
The CRT system works better at close distance, the IR at a bit longer distance 

Wow this is great. 

I've spent lots on crts guns like usb2gun, actlabs and dabbled with ancient 32 bit windows builds of Acorns wingun guncon drivers. Out of nowhere you come up with this!

How is it tracking and targeting in your video without flashing?

Will it work with groovymame "super resolutions" on crt?

I'll take 2 please

The tracking on games that don't need flashing (most 16 bits games) works super well, it's precise to the pixel and super reactive.
I'd even say it works better than the original guns of those systems thanks to the very good sensor quality of the GCon 
For games that need screen flashing, I added (and currently testing) a screen flashing generator, which would allow the gun to be compatible with anything.
It will of course work with super resolutions, since for vertical pixels the resolution isn't important, only the timing is 

[burn_654]

I am completely on board with what you've got here. I just now commented over in sonik's thread (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,164677.0.html) about what I tried to accomplish before with a custom flasher program, custom Guncon2 circuit and Topgun drivers (I've posted quite a long time ago about this) but could never get things into a state that would be easy enough for most to duplicate.

To echo that comment I'm very interested in this too! Will it be open source? I could try rigging it up to my flasher program and see how I get on with it...

*phantom edit* just saw your previous comment. Did you end up going the windows gamma ramp route or something else? Gamma ramp worked *ok* but I was never able to get pure white out of some screens, some colors were not affected linearly which cause a bit of a minor offset (ie, wave the gun at a white patch and then over a grey patch, I had a horizontal difference in the mouse cursor)

[JayBee]

I am completely on board with what you've got here. I just now commented over in sonik's thread (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,164677.0.html) about what I tried to accomplish before with a custom flasher program, custom Guncon2 circuit and Topgun drivers (I've posted quite a long time ago about this) but could never get things into a state that would be easy enough for most to duplicate.

To echo that comment I'm very interested in this too! Will it be open source? I could try rigging it up to my flasher program and see how I get on with it...

*phantom edit* just saw your previous comment. Did you end up going the windows gamma ramp route or something else? Gamma ramp worked *ok* but I was never able to get pure white out of some screens, some colors were not affected linearly which cause a bit of a minor offset (ie, wave the gun at a white patch and then over a grey patch, I had a horizontal difference in the mouse cursor)

A small precision about my system; it's a fully hardware solution, no software involved.
It means no need for screen flashing software or anything else, it will be plug and play. The screen flashing works perfectly already by the way, I will release a demo video soon   
And no, it won't be open source.

[KenToad]

I don't need any more hype. I'm ready for the order page. 

[dmckean]

So far my adapter only works with RGBHV (VGA) connection, but works at any resolution from 240p to 960p.
It also contains a sync combiner that will allow you to use either RGBHV for PC CRT or RGBS for TV screens.
I could add a transcoder/sync splitter if there is enough demand, but it would increase the price and complexity of the device a lot.
And my goal is to keep it simple and affordable for everyone 
But I might consider add on modules in the future, if enough people ask for it.

There's no need, I already own a few different rgb to component transcoders. I'm just used to the MiSTer outputting component video directly though the VGA port and the lack of clutter.

I'm also ready to buy!

[Howard_Casto]

So explain this one a little more.   Is the gun going to work if I adapt the vga out to something else, so long as it goes through a crt?   I was thinking component would be a common input method for later model crts.   The gbs and some of the other scalers have some way to output component.   

If this isn't super expensive you've already sold another one.   

[JayBee]

So explain this one a little more.   Is the gun going to work if I adapt the vga out to something else, so long as it goes through a crt?   I was thinking component would be a common input method for later model crts.   The gbs and some of the other scalers have some way to output component.   

If this isn't super expensive you've already sold another one.

There should also be a rgbs out through some standard video connectors, like the genesis one, haven't decided which one yet.
But yes it's not compatible (yet) with other standards like composite, component or s-video, as those would makes the system way more complex and expensive.
I indeed intend to make it not super expensive 

[Howard_Casto]

Sounds like I need to rgb mod my crt then.   Been meaning to do it but the dang thing is so heavy I don't like to move it much less take it apart.   I would suggest either the genesis connector or better yet scart as those are the rgb standards.   

[JayBee]

Sounds like I need to rgb mod my crt then.   Been meaning to do it but the dang thing is so heavy I don't like to move it much less take it apart.   I would suggest either the genesis connector or better yet scart as those are the rgb standards.

I understand the feeling, it always a pain for me too to do anything on my pvm   

[JayBee]

Two small update videos on the development progress;
They are showing the new resolution detection and processing.
Both games are running on PC this time, to be able to increase the screen resolution to 1024x768@75Hz.

[KenToad]

Looks really good. Glad I didn't get rid of my old 17" Dell PC monitor.

Will there be 2 player support?

[burn_654]

That's looking great. Glad to see drag-fire working for Operation Wolf etc.

Not sure if it's been illustrated yet but I didn't notice it in the Virtua Cop footage, is shooting offscreen reload supported? (right click for mame/demulshooter/pc lightgun games). I prefer that action for that style shooter as opposed to a button reload, which seems to be what was going on with that clip.

[JayBee]

Looks really good. Glad I didn't get rid of my old 17" Dell PC monitor.

Will there be 2 player support?

Yes, there will be a 2 player mode 
But it's not decided yet if it will be 2 players in one box or 2 box daisy chained.

That's looking great. Glad to see drag-fire working for Operation Wolf etc.

Not sure if it's been illustrated yet but I didn't notice it in the Virtua Cop footage, is shooting offscreen reload supported? (right click for mame/demulshooter/pc lightgun games). I prefer that action for that style shooter as opposed to a button reload, which seems to be what was going on with that clip.

Good question. It's not yet supported since I didn't finish my hardware flasher yet, but it will be supported on final product 
Meanwhile I made a dirty offscreen reload hack just for testing 

[gamepimp]

But yes it's not compatible (yet) with other standards like composite, component or s-video, as those would makes the system way more complex and expensive.
I indeed intend to make it not super expensive 

I’m assuming a SCART to component converter won’t work in this setup? I have a SONY CRT and like Howard I have not been too interested in doing the RGB mod because of its size and weight. Furthermore I don’t think there’s a lot of benefit visually between the two formats.

[JayBee]

But yes it's not compatible (yet) with other standards like composite, component or s-video, as those would makes the system way more complex and expensive.
I indeed intend to make it not super expensive 

I’m assuming a SCART to component converter won’t work in this setup? I have a SONY CRT and like Howard I have not been too interested in doing the RGB mod because of its size and weight. Furthermore I don’t think there’s a lot of benefit visually between the two formats.

It is possible with a no latency analog transcoder, I've been doing it on mine already 
The issue here has nothing to do with quality, it's just that if I want an easy to work and affordable sync and video signal for the gun adapter and especially the screen flash generator, I need vga in and vga/rgbs out. Any other output format would need some form of transcoding.

[KenToad]

Anybody got any suggestions for a no latency analog transcoder from VGA to component?

[JayBee]

Anybody got any suggestions for a no latency analog transcoder from VGA to component?

This seems nice, and you don't need to use the lm1881 since my adapter will already provide a clean csync 
https://easyeda.com/dekkit/rgb-to-component-transcoder
I'm not entirely sure it's no lag tho, but I guess I could get some of those components to test them out.

[dmckean]

Anybody got any suggestions for a no latency analog transcoder from VGA to component?

The GreenAntz one that Zebidee sells on this forum is really nice.

[sonik]

Any plans on supporting the guncon2 too via usb? Maybe as a optional addon?

[JayBee]

Any plans on supporting the guncon2 too via usb? Maybe as a optional addon?

No plan on that yet, as it would require a usb host chip, which isn't cheap 

[KenToad]

Anybody got any suggestions for a no latency analog transcoder from VGA to component?

The GreenAntz one that Zebidee sells on this forum is really nice.

I found the thread about the device and it looks amazing. Thanks!

[JayBee]

Anybody got any suggestions for a no latency analog transcoder from VGA to component?

The GreenAntz one that Zebidee sells on this forum is really nice.

I found the thread about the device and it looks amazing. Thanks!

By the way I got some of the previously mentioned cheap transcoding IC, I will see how well they work with my system

[KenToad]

Anybody got any suggestions for a no latency analog transcoder from VGA to component?

The GreenAntz one that Zebidee sells on this forum is really nice.

I found the thread about the device and it looks amazing. Thanks!

By the way I got some of the previously mentioned cheap transcoding IC, I will see how well they work with my system

Thanks for doing that!

[JayBee]

Anybody got any suggestions for a no latency analog transcoder from VGA to component?

The GreenAntz one that Zebidee sells on this forum is really nice.

I found the thread about the device and it looks amazing. Thanks!

By the way I got some of the previously mentioned cheap transcoding IC, I will see how well they work with my system

Thanks for doing that!

No problem, testing new stuff is part of the fun 

[Zebidee]

Anybody got any suggestions for a no latency analog transcoder from VGA to component?

The GreenAntz one that Zebidee sells on this forum is really nice.

I found the thread about the device and it looks amazing. Thanks!

By the way I got some of the previously mentioned cheap transcoding IC, I will see how well they work with my system

Thanks for doing that!

No problem, testing new stuff is part of the fun 

I just wanted to say that the GreenAntz RGB/VGA to YPbPr transcoder should work with GUN4IR, from what I've read here and seen on the YT video.

GreenAntz converts RGB to component colour space, but does not interfere with your video modes. Using a component TV with GreenAntz should be just like using an RGB modded TV or arcade monitor with a PC+CRTEMU/MiSTer/Pi etc.

GreenAntz accepts RGBHV and RGBs inputs. It comes with a "better" sync combining circuit based on XNOR logic that also has some neat deglitching built in, sync-tip clamping and improved sync "mixing" with luma (Y). That means you get a clearer and brighter picture with no loss of colour definition (unlike other low-quality transcoders on market in same "price bracket").

GreenAntz is based on the same circuit you linked earlier JayBee (it was uploaded by my Aussie mate and collaborator "Dekkit"):
https://easyeda.com/dekkit/rgb-to-component-transcoder

That circuit itself is an evolution of a circuit I posted on the Aussie Arcade forums several years ago on another forum:
https://www.aussiearcade.com/forum/arcade/arcade-technical-and-repair-questions/monitor-and-chassis-repair-help/99015-pc-rgb-to-component-converter-tv-hack#post2157213

From that "GreenAntz" was born and has been much developed since. It is a collaborative project which has grown from the seed of an idea to something that is actually... pretty damn good, if I say so myself

Until I do enough batches and have enough on-hand to justify listing them on ebay etc., I am selling to forum members for US$45 + courier shipping (to USA that is currently $15, maybe less to other countries). That price is strictly limited because once I start listing online I won't undercut.

EDIT: PM me if interested

[JayBee]

I just wanted to say that the GreenAntz RGB/VGA to YPbPr transcoder should work with GUN4IR, from what I've read here and seen on the YT video.

GreenAntz converts RGB to component colour space, but does not interfere with your video modes. Using a component TV with GreenAntz should be just like using an RGB modded TV or arcade monitor with a PC+CRTEMU/MiSTer/Pi etc.

GreenAntz accepts RGBHV and RGBs inputs. It comes with a "better" sync combining circuit based on XNOR logic that also has some neat deglitching built in, sync-tip clamping and improved sync "mixing" with luma (Y). That means you get a clearer and brighter picture with no loss of colour definition (unlike other low-quality transcoders on market in same "price bracket").

GreenAntz is based on the same circuit you linked earlier JayBee (it was uploaded by my Aussie mate and collaborator "Dekkit"):
https://easyeda.com/dekkit/rgb-to-component-transcoder

That circuit itself is an evolution of a circuit I posted on the Aussie Arcade forums several years ago on another forum:
https://www.aussiearcade.com/forum/arcade/arcade-technical-and-repair-questions/monitor-and-chassis-repair-help/99015-pc-rgb-to-component-converter-tv-hack#post2157213

From that "GreenAntz" was born and has been much developed since. It is a collaborative project which has grown from the seed of an idea to something that is actually... pretty damn good, if I say so myself

Until I do enough batches and have enough on-hand to justify listing them on ebay etc., I am selling to forum members for US$45 + courier shipping (to USA that is currently $15, maybe less to other countries). That price is strictly limited because once I start listing online I won't undercut.

EDIT: PM me if interested

Thanks for stepping in, indeed your device seems a great match for my adapter! 
I'm also using a xnor sync combiner in my device, so a rgbhv to ypbpr would surely be overkill, but rgbs to ypbpr would be neat.
I'm wondering tho, my adapter supports 480p+ resolutions, but if I understand it correctly your adapter can't have correct color on HDTV modes, right?

[Zebidee]

Thanks for stepping in, indeed your device seems a great match for my adapter! 
I'm also using a xnor sync combiner in my device, so a rgbhv to ypbpr would surely be overkill, but rgbs to ypbpr would be neat.
I'm wondering tho, my adapter supports 480p+ resolutions, but if I understand it correctly your adapter can't have correct color on HDTV modes, right?

Thanks JayBee   

The issue is that component colour space for HDTV is different to SDTV. It will actually work with a HDTV that takes 480p in terms of sync, you will get a solid picture, but the colours will be a bit dulled and "green shifted". It has never been a solution for HDTVs that accept component inputs. In most cases you are better off using RGB/VGA/HDMI etc. anyway (there are exceptions, Wii users for example and I'm sorry for them being caught in-between techs). It comes down to them using a different mathematical formula to extract YUV from RGB for HDTV. For more info with less acronyms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV

Yes GreenAntz accepts composite sync (RGBs) input now - and normal XNOR csync input will still benefit from the deglitching and better sync tip integration to luma. It take what it gets and gives what it gets, just a little bit better.

GreenAntz has always been envisioned as a more affordable solution for retrogamers using older CRT SDTVs that maybe can't be RGB modded, but have component inputs available or can be component-modded. Component modding is often much easier too. This means a great many more TVs available for retrogaming.

When I say affordable: Look, you can pay >US$100+ for a Shinybow or whatever that can do HDTV ok I think. If they are even available. GreenAntz is not competing with that.

GreenAntz is about making best-quality YPbPr transcoding "affordable" and "seamless" for retrogamers using CRTs/SDTVs. For people like you and me. I think that "best-quality" means I am extremely happy with it at both a data analysis and personal level (I am a data analyst, so same thing). "Affordable" means about as much as I'd pay for most decent TVs, which is maybe ~US$50. "Seamless" means once you have your VGA/15khz output device setup, you should be able to just plug in the GreenAntz and use your component TV like any other RGB TV/monitor.

[JayBee]

Thanks for stepping in, indeed your device seems a great match for my adapter! 
I'm also using a xnor sync combiner in my device, so a rgbhv to ypbpr would surely be overkill, but rgbs to ypbpr would be neat.
I'm wondering tho, my adapter supports 480p+ resolutions, but if I understand it correctly your adapter can't have correct color on HDTV modes, right?

Thanks JayBee   

The issue is that component colour space for HDTV is different to SDTV. It will actually work with a HDTV that takes 480p in terms of sync, you will get a solid picture, but the colours will be a bit dulled and "green shifted". It has never been a solution for HDTVs that accept component inputs. In most cases you are better off using RGB/VGA/HDMI etc. anyway (there are exceptions, Wii users for example and I'm sorry for them being caught in-between techs). It comes down to them using a different mathematical formula to extract YUV from RGB for HDTV. For more info with less acronyms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV

Yes GreenAntz accepts composite sync (RGBs) input now - and normal XNOR csync input will still benefit from the deglitching and better sync tip integration to luma. It take what it gets and gives what it gets, just a little bit better.

GreenAntz has always been envisioned as a more affordable solution for retrogamers using older CRT SDTVs that maybe can't be RGB modded, but have component inputs available or can be component-modded. Component modding is often much easier too. This means a great many more TVs available for retrogaming.

When I say affordable: Look, you can pay >US$100+ for a Shinybow or whatever that can do HDTV ok I think. If they are even available. GreenAntz is not competing with that.

GreenAntz is about making best-quality YPbPr transcoding "affordable" and "seamless" for retrogamers using CRTs/SDTVs. For people like you and me. I think that "best-quality" means I am extremely happy with it at both a data analysis and personal level (I am a data analyst, so same thing). "Affordable" means about as much as I'd pay for most decent TVs, which is maybe ~US$50. "Seamless" means once you have your VGA/15khz output device setup, you should be able to just plug in the GreenAntz and use your component TV like any other RGB TV/monitor.

Thanks for the detailed explanation 

About 31kHz+ resolutions on ypbrpr, I was thinking specifically about early BVM/HDTV that had only components in for 480p and up.

But I agree with you, that use case scenario is very small.
I do understand the technical limitations and there isn't much we can do about it, I just wanted to make sure I understood the technical side of the transcoder