Jennifer has issues

[Ond]

I get it Mike.  You didn't like her.  Was she giving  bad advice?  I pm'd her for advice on a number of occasions.  The advice was good.

[Mike A]

Yeah. She gave bad advice a lot.

[Mike A]

You should have asked her how she rewound CRT yokes. She completely refused. Then she said she sold all of them.

[Mike A]

I can break it all down for you if you like, but she deleted ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- constantly. Especially when she said something totally out of bounds.

[Ond]

Ok, so she's deleted most of her stuff, but give some examples?  I won't say she wasn't cryptic or hard to understand.  In some areas her knowledge was really comprehensive from what I saw.

[Ond]

Refusing to post info or pics does not equal bad advice, that's a different problem, but it's not bad advice.

[Mike A]

Like I said I could break it down for you but she kept deleting ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I am not sure what you are defending here. She told the mods to ---fudgesicle--- off when they told her to retract repugnant comments. I don't know why you want someone like that around here. She had every chance to stay.

[saint]

I intend to look at alternative forum software this summer if I can. However, right now, I could set the forum to not allow anyone to edit posts - that would stop the flameout problem. It would create so many other problems though.  I really want a mod that allows edits to be undone.

And Ond’s perspective on Jennifer’s contributions is why I didn’t reign in her in with banning despite numerous complaints, and Mike’s perspective on harassment by her is why I tried to reign her in privately to not much success unfortunately.

So here you had two contributors to the forum at odds and in frequent conflict. (Mike, I’m not picking on you, I’m beyond happy to see you chose to give BYOAC another go, we’re better for having you here).

This kind of thing comes up repeatedly, and I don’t know how to moderate these situations without the inevitable loss of one or more parties.

Opinions?

[Mike A]

She kept telling multiple forum members that they needed a jointer to cut straight lines. She did that to multiple people. When they said they didn't have the money or the space for one she just ignored them and kept insisting they get one.

[saint]

For the record, telling me to ---fudgesicle--- off doesn’t get under my skin, and if it was just that Jennifer could come back if she wanted and agreed to some decorum guidelines.  There are other folks here who I expect don’t like me that are here under similar agreement.

Going scorched earth and deleting material - that makes it a tougher thing for me to consider. 

I don’t ever really say never though except for serious ---uvulas---, and I don’t think this qualifies.

[Ond]

I'm in no hurry to see her back for now.  I know what she said and did, I was there.  The way she was disposed of was wrong.  That's what I'm defending.  I don't buy the bad advice thing.  Confused, rambling posts, which included inappropriate comments?  Yes.  On specific build techniques, good advice.  That's about it. 

[Ond]

saint, I get that you're tired of dealing with this stuff,  you know I feel strongly about what has happened though. 

[Mike A]

She disposed of herself. The mods told her to edit her post and she refused and then doubled down on the rhetoric. I am not sure what other choice they had. This is not the first time they have tried to rein her in. How do you think it could have gone down differently?

[Mike A]

I am not going to change your mind so I will stop trying. Rehashing this stuff over and over is not productive. I need to just let it go.

[Ond]

If she was a recent member behaving like this, the ban action would be entirely appropriate.  I watched Jenn on the forum for years.  She became unglued over the last year or so with increasingly poor behavior.  A temporary ban is more fitting for a long standing member who has previously been a contributor IMO.

Your view of her as a contributor is biased by your dislike of her which is understandable. 

[Ond]

I am not going to change your mind so I will stop trying. Rehashing this stuff over and over is not productive. I need to just let it go.

You do.  You may think I have something against you Mike, other than this business with Jenn, I have nothing against you and have good memories.

[saint]

I’m not as much tired of dealing with it (I mean I am, it’s soul sucking at times but it’s part of running a forum)  - as I’m less able to due to life circumstances. I appreciate your passion on it and your perspective.

Another mod might have handled it different;y, I might have or might have ended up in the same place, I don’t know, but the mods who were there and paying attention at the time made the call and I won’t second guess someone who is doing their best to interpret the rules I’ve set in place in absence of support from me at the time.

PL1 is basically soloing the forum 90% of the time right now (approving posts from new members, deleting trash posts and banning would-be-spammers of which there are a *ton* hitting the forum regularly, etc.) and I’m grateful to him and the other board and global mods who give what they are able to to the forum.

I’m open to adding more mods if it would be useful. Has to be people with thick skin and slow trigger fingers. Really though it would be helpful to have more report-to-moderators happening when things start going south. It won’t made moderation decisions any easier, but at least we’d be more aware of a situation before it got too out of hand.

I’ve had to explain numerous times to angry forum denizens that no, I wasn’t letting <insert-issue-here> happen on purpose, I just wasn’t aware of it because I don’t read every post on the forum every day. I appreciate their belief in my omniscience, but it’s ain’t so.

This is kind of rambling so I’ll stop, but I’m open to any suggestions. You all are the heart and soul of how and why BYOAC exists. I’m just the guy running the server, poorly.

[saint]

For clarity, perm-ban only means it doesn’t auto-expire. If Jennifer wants to rejoin us and would agree to decorum guidelines, and convinced me she won’t go scorched earth on anymore posts (or even I damaged some?) I’d be happy to welcome her back. She has my email. She probably thinks I hate her but I appreciate her quirks and contributions, which even though I agree with Mike’s criticisms of her coyness and unsubstantiated claims, I still believe she has made positive contributions to the forum.

If she was a recent member behaving like this, the ban action would be entirely appropriate.  I watched Jenn on the forum for years.  She became unglued over the last year or so with increasingly poor behavior.  A temporary ban is more fitting for a long standing member who has previously been a contributor IMO.

Your view of her as a contributor is biased by your dislike of her which is understandable.

[Vigo]

Is it possible to start locking old threads not touched for xx number of days?  I think that should help mitigate the loss for post nuking at least. The edit button is valuable, especially I love when OPs update their first post to their projects. I understand some threads will need to be left alone, and there will be many cases for unlocking threads is necessary. I am happy to put some shovel time in locking threads if you need me to / are willing to have me get some time in pushing that through.

And while I can’t promise that I can consistently help on a dime, I can try to make a point to help with some moderation if you would like me. (And no offense will be taken if you don’t.) I can assure you I am a little less jumpy these days, and well, I always had the thick skin part down.

[Ond]

For clarity, perm-ban only means it doesn’t auto-expire. If Jennifer wants to rejoin us and would agree to decorum guidelines, and convinced me she won’t go scorched earth on anymore posts (or even I damaged some?) I’d be happy to welcome her back. She has my email. She probably thinks I hate her but I appreciate her quirks and contributions, which even though I agree with Mike’s criticisms of her coyness and unsubstantiated claims, I still believe she has made positive contributions to the forum.

If she was a recent member behaving like this, the ban action would be entirely appropriate.  I watched Jenn on the forum for years.  She became unglued over the last year or so with increasingly poor behavior.  A temporary ban is more fitting for a long standing member who has previously been a contributor IMO.

Your view of her as a contributor is biased by your dislike of her which is understandable.

Thanks, I regard her in exactly the same way.  I'm done ranting now.  I rarely speak up on these things, but, well, it bugged me.

[Malenko]

PL1 is basically soloing the forum 90% of the time right now

I don't think any moderator would have made a difference ,this situation would have played out the same way no matter who was in charge.  Jennifer has been on a steady decline, the last few things she did would have had any moderator worth their salt giving her a permaban.

If Jennifer wants to rejoin us and would agree to decorum guidelines, and convinced me she won’t go scorched earth on anymore posts (or even I damaged some?) I’d be happy to welcome her back.

I think that sets a bad precedence.
"Go ahead an be a total ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- if you've been here a while cause then you get 1 free pass".

If you do what she did and wanna burn the bridge you have to accept the consequences of your actions.

[Ond]

Is it possible to start locking old threads not touched for xx number of days?  I think that should help mitigate the loss for post nuking at least. The edit button is valuable, especially I love when OPs update their first post to their projects. I understand some threads will need to be left alone, and there will be many cases for unlocking threads is necessary. I am happy to put some shovel time in locking threads if you need me to / are willing to have me get some time in pushing that through.

And while I can’t promise that I can consistently help on a dime, I can try to make a point to help with some moderation if you would like me. (And no offense will be taken if you don’t.) I can assure you I am a little less jumpy these days, and well, I always had the thick skin part down.

I think you would make an excellent moderator Vigo, you are one of the coolest heads around here.  Working on "Vote for Vigo" badges now. 

[Zebidee]

Ond you wanted examples. If we give an ounce of credibility to Mike's claims that she was lying, just for a moment.

Look at the steel she was welding for "wing struts" on a Star Wars cab. I was asking for some kind of plan or drawing because honestly it looked like she was welding a roof truss for a house. It was completely overengineered for an arcade cabinet cosmetic piece. It would also have been damn heavy. She was busy talking about exotic materials that we never saw. If you're going to buy all that stuff, why not use a little for the wing struts? For example, why not just use aluminium instead?

When I first saw the metal pieces in the back of the pickup and the words "wing struts" I thought she was going to put a rocket on the back of the truck and make it fly. That would've been fun!

I was asking for a rough plan of some sort because I was smelling ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. Oh, no rough plan she just does the math in her head. I know some people do that, sure, but they at least write the numbers down on some paper somehow. All I was asking for was a kids drawing kind of plan, but no.

[wp34]

Is it possible to start locking old threads not touched for xx number of days?  I think that should help mitigate the loss for post nuking at least.

This is a great idea.

[opt2not]

Really? I’m shocked there’s even a debate about this. Jenn was cancer. Plain and simple. She/He didn’t add value to the forum, she added shock value and lies and a lot of cock-measuring.
There was not one post of his/hers that I thought was helpful or new information. I’m fine with Jenn deleting posts. It’s like he/she was never here, and I’m totally fine with that. It shows how much these people are truly about supporting the arcade hobby and preservation, and who are just posuers looking for some kind of ego boost. Chance was the same.

Jenn was on a downward spiral for a while, the fact she got away with so much baffles me. Once the racist comment then refusal to see what that comment really meant came out, it was a no-brainer Jenn needed to go.

I don’t agree with anyone who thinks jenn’s comment is benign. Anyone defending it is obviously not Asian let alone Chinese. I’m half. My mother is Chinese. I fear she will get attacked when going out. My in-laws are Asian. I fear things will happen to them when they are out.
If you can’t realize the way society is right now, then you’re either feigning ignorant or you live in a bubble.
These things are real. And words and comments like what Jenn put out there and defended are hurting people.

[Ond]

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine.  That's why there's debate.

Vote 1 for Vigo.

[wp34]

She/He didn’t add value to the forum

She/He?  What the heck?

[opt2not]

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine.  That's why there's debate.

If your opinion stems from defending racist comments or behaviors, or even a lack of awareness of those comments being racist...then it’s not a matter of opinion. It’s a matter of you can get ---fouled up beyond all recognition---. I have zero tolerance to racists, or white knights defending people who are.

[opt2not]

She/He didn’t add value to the forum

She/He?  What the heck?

The jury is still out on that.

[wp34]

She/He didn’t add value to the forum

She/He?  What the heck?

The jury is still out on that.

How is this comment better than her racist comments?

[opt2not]

She/He didn’t add value to the forum

She/He?  What the heck?

The jury is still out on that.

How is this comment better than her racist comments?

Huh? Being unclear what pronoun to use for Jenn is not the same or worst than racism. There’s a few of us who believe Jenn is X2’s alt account. There were inconsistencies with Jenn’s posts that lead us to believe her whole shtick was an act.

How exactly is that confusing to you?

[Ond]

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine.  That's why there's debate.

If your opinion stems from defending racist comments or behaviors, or even a lack of awareness of those comments being racist...then it’s not a matter of opinion. It’s a matter of you can get ---fouled up beyond all recognition---. I have zero tolerance to racists, or white knights defending people who are.

I'm not defending racist behavior for a second.  I've already said her behavior merited a ban.  It's OTHER things I'm questioning.  Nice personal attack there.

[opt2not]

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine.  That's why there's debate.

If your opinion stems from defending racist comments or behaviors, or even a lack of awareness of those comments being racist...then it’s not a matter of opinion. It’s a matter of you can get ---fouled up beyond all recognition---. I have zero tolerance to racists, or white knights defending people who are.

I'm not defending racist behavior for a second.  I've already said her behavior merited a ban.  It's OTHER things I'm questioning.  Nice personal attack there.

You didn’t specify what our difference of opinions were.

Besides, you took a long break from the forum and didn’t see all the exchanges we all had with Jenn through that time.

[Hoopz]

There’s a few of us who believe Jenn is X2’s alt account. There were inconsistencies with Jenn’s posts that lead us to believe her whole shtick was an act.

I've not been around much the last few years but they were both active here for years while I was very active. I never would have thought that Steve/X2 had a burner account to use.

Care to share any reasons?

[leapinlew]

What are we calling racist behavior exactly? We talking about saying "Chinese flu"? If so, branding someone a racist is pretty extreme in my view.

I don't know the whole story and trying hard to avoid having to learn all the details, so I'm not qualified to have an opinion on whatever Jenn did. I do have an opinion that saying "Chinese Flu" isn't racist. It's insensitive at this point, now that we know what we should call it. I dunno man, we are just too quick to throw around the term racist.

[opt2not]

I've not been around much the last few years but they were both active here for years while I was very active. I never would have thought that Steve/X2 had a burner account to use.

Care to share any reasons?

Sorry I should have wrote : X2 or another bygone troll who has an alt account. I don’t have specific instances I can search for right now, but the inconsistency was in Jenn’s writing. Jenn would go from that 3rd person cutesy simp act to a fully different way of writing. Almost like split personality, or just someone forgetting to keep their act up. Letting it slip, you know?

[Hoopz]

Ok, I get that. There have been a lot of trolls over the years. I went through about 20 pages of PMs looking for something and about 15 pages messages from solid members discussing various clowns trolling the place.

I'd bet against X though. His belligerence stood out especially when he would threaten someone in RL.

[opt2not]

What are we calling racist behavior exactly? We talking about saying "Chinese flu"? If so, branding someone a racist is pretty extreme in my view.

I don't know the whole story and trying hard to avoid having to learn all the details, so I'm not qualified to have an opinion on whatever Jenn did. I do have an opinion that saying "Chinese Flu" isn't racist. It's insensitive at this point, now that we know what we should call it. I dunno man, we are just too quick to throw around the term racist.

It would have been just racial insensitivity if Jenn backed down after we mentioned that it was a racist term that is causing actual harm to Asian people. But Jenn dug in, doubled down. Saying things like “what else should I call it?”...how about covid, the rona, the pandemic...any alternatives that would have been more accurate.
The fact that Jenn defended her term was enough to be called racist.

[Arroyo]

I’ve met most of you in real life, and what I can say is “girl’s you’re both pretty”.  Seriously though this conversation is a divergence from what I’d like to think this forum is about.  A  united interest in our passion for the hobby.  Jenn or no Jenn, at the end of the day we all signed up here to learn more about building cabs.  This thread is a distraction and a division.  Let’s get back to posting ideas.  I’m looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

[Vigo]

What are we calling racist behavior exactly? We talking about saying "Chinese flu"? If so, branding someone a racist is pretty extreme in my view.

I don't know the whole story and trying hard to avoid having to learn all the details, so I'm not qualified to have an opinion on whatever Jenn did. I do have an opinion that saying "Chinese Flu" isn't racist. It's insensitive at this point, now that we know what we should call it. I dunno man, we are just too quick to throw around the term racist.

It would have been just racial insensitivity if Jenn backed down after we mentioned that it was a racist term that is causing actual harm to Asian people. But Jenn dug in, doubled down. Saying things like “what else should I call it?”...how about covid, the rona, the pandemic...any alternatives that would have been more accurate.
The fact that Jenn defended her term was enough to be called racist.

I remember in middle school I was into Final Fantasy. At school during study period, I was drawing pictures of Locke or Cloud or somebody from the game riding a Chocobo. Pretty normal stuff for a video game kid to be doing, right? Well, anyway, my teacher looked over my shoulder and started freaking out at me for my drawing. He saw the innocent picture I drew of a guy on a giant bird, and interpreted it as an adult man giving it up the butt to an ostrich. Made a big deal about it in front of the whole class about how I was drawing bestiality pictures which became known as the bird F-er picture. In fairness, yes, the picture did look like a guy giving backdoor loving to a giant bird, but being called out in such a dramatic way like that only made me mad, only made me want to draw that picture more, and only hurt my reputation among my peers.

My point is she was called out in a very harsh way. I think it is somewhat normal reaction to be angry. Thankfully, as adults, most of us can put aside emotions, but I don't think her being angry means anything other than she was upset for being called something she felt she wasn't.