Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?  (Read 6742 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Kingcade

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Last login:October 14, 2021, 04:33:12 pm
  • Building a steampunk arcade cabinet
Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« on: August 30, 2020, 12:05:47 am »
I used to program games on my old Atari 800 XL. I was wondering if there is anyone creating new arcade games for running on emulators like MAME? I would think with advancements in software development, there would be some 8bit engines and tools to make it fairly easy to create retro-style games. I'd like to give it a try if such things exist. Am I being too hopeful? Anyone have any suggestions of communities, tool sets, etc.?
KINGCADE - my Steampunk Wild West penny arcade-style cabinet
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,161105.msg1697383.html#msg1697383

PL1

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9400
  • Last login:Today at 06:35:46 pm
  • Designated spam hunter
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2020, 01:02:40 am »
I was wondering if there is anyone creating new arcade games for running on emulators like MAME?
There's HBMAME for home-brew ROMs, ROM hacks, etc. that don't qualify for inclusion in mainline MAME.

Atari Age recently posted news about the Lynx Programming Competition 2020 that they co-sponsor.  (submissions closed, voting in progress for the next 15 days)

The Atari Age forums have programming sub-forums for the various consoles and Atari 8-bit computers like your 800XL.


Scott

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19400
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:59:21 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2020, 01:16:39 am »
There are plenty of retro style games out there.  I mean Battletoads and Streets of Rage 4 come to mind.  If you are looking for an 8-bit aesthetic specifically there are 14 games released on steam every hour trying to recapture that old school charm.  Bloodstained COTM 2 recently came out and I'm told it's just as killer as the first.  If you mean on actual old hardware, yes, there are people still chugging along to make stuff on anything from the C64 to the virtual boy.  Most of these projects either get abandoned, or aren't anything special when finished however.  It's hard to make stuff on obsolete hardware unless you were doing it when the hardware was new unfortunately.  That's why most of the throwback stuff is on modern consoles.... it's just easier to program. 

There are exceptions though.  Xeno-Crisis actually runs on real Genesis hardware even though it's been released on modern consoles.  There's usually a new Neo-geo shooter released every year or two.  The Vectrex community is typically very active. On the tools end, there is a game maker toolkit for the NES that's supposed to be pretty good.  There's something similar for the 2600 and I'm sure more obscure consoles also have some tools available. 

Kingcade

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Last login:October 14, 2021, 04:33:12 pm
  • Building a steampunk arcade cabinet
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2020, 02:17:07 am »
Thanks for the suggestions, PL1 and Howard_Casto! I'll check them out.

I also found Godot and Tic-80, which look like game-creation platforms that can maybe run in RetroPie/Retroarch cores on my Raspberry Pi 3b+ arcade machine.

That's my main goal - just have fun writing an old-school game again that I can run on my arcade cabinet. I'd like it to have that old-school arcade aesthetic, but hopefully with an easier programming environment and some pre-made libraries. I didn't finish writing most of my Atari games due to limitations with Basic and my limited knowledge of Assembly Language. I do know C and several other languages, so hopefully I can find something that fits the bill.
KINGCADE - my Steampunk Wild West penny arcade-style cabinet
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,161105.msg1697383.html#msg1697383

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2020, 01:22:50 pm »
I also found Godot and Tic-80, which look like game-creation platforms that can maybe run in RetroPie/Retroarch cores on my Raspberry Pi 3b+ arcade machine.

Godot is great. Started learning it earlier this year and writing a Frogger clone using it (https://phgames.itch.io/froggy). It's probably the best engine right now for any 2D game development.

Kingcade

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Last login:October 14, 2021, 04:33:12 pm
  • Building a steampunk arcade cabinet
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2020, 01:51:27 pm »
Godot is great. Started learning it earlier this year and writing a Frogger clone using it (https://phgames.itch.io/froggy). It's probably the best engine right now for any 2D game development.

Great Frogger clone! I love the honking cars. This game is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to do. Have you tried running it in an arcade machine?
KINGCADE - my Steampunk Wild West penny arcade-style cabinet
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,161105.msg1697383.html#msg1697383

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19400
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:59:21 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2020, 12:51:00 am »
I bought some books on Unity and I after seeing your frogger clone I kind of want to learn Godot.  Maybe once my life is back in order I can churn out some games. 

meyer980

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 385
  • Last login:March 29, 2024, 04:00:11 pm
  • Building fun things for fun
    • sergiostuff.com/2020/04/15/felix-son-arcade-game/
    • Sergio Stuff
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2020, 10:38:25 am »
You got the info you need from others it looks like (all good stuff) but figured I'd add my two cents.

I think it's broken into two camps a bit:

1. Writing games to actually play on vintage hardware - in my opinion there isn't much purpose in doing this unless you plan on printing your own pcbs to go into cabs. Original games won't run in MAME since they only add authentic games from the day to their library (for the most part). Sure, you could write a game mod or use HBMAME, and that's great, but it's still running on a modern computer. So at that point why are you programming for vintage hardware?

1b. There are sort of in-betweens though, like the NESMaker Howard mentioned. You can easily write actual NES games, put them on a NES flash cartridge, and play those games on real hardware. That's pretty cool.

2. Writing games for modern systems but with a retro feel - Howard already spoke about this. Lots of options. I use Gamemaker Studio 2 personally, but there are plenty of others. It's a pretty saturated market for someone trying to sell anything but a great way to build something custom like I did: https://sergiostuff.com/2020/04/15/felix-son-arcade-game/

Of course, these are just practical considerations. If you're doing it just for fun or to learn, then anything goes! "For fun" is mostly the track I've taken.

Kingcade

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Last login:October 14, 2021, 04:33:12 pm
  • Building a steampunk arcade cabinet
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2020, 11:14:16 am »
Love the Felix and Son idea - great project! I see you used Attract Mode as a front end. Do you know if GameMaker supports running games in a core on Retropie/Retroarch? I’d like to just add my game to my existing system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
KINGCADE - my Steampunk Wild West penny arcade-style cabinet
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,161105.msg1697383.html#msg1697383

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2020, 12:06:39 pm »
Godot is great. Started learning it earlier this year and writing a Frogger clone using it (https://phgames.itch.io/froggy). It's probably the best engine right now for any 2D game development.

Great Frogger clone! I love the honking cars. This game is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to do. Have you tried running it in an arcade machine?

Thank you! At the moment I don't have any arcade stuff set up (no room for it), so I haven't tried it on an arcade setup yet.

It also doesn't yet support custom input mappings, so that may hinder its usage on an arcade, depending on how people have their inputs configured. Though it's on my to-do list, among other things!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 01:05:49 pm by shponglefan »

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2020, 12:14:24 pm »
I bought some books on Unity and I after seeing your frogger clone I kind of want to learn Godot.  Maybe once my life is back in order I can churn out some games.

Hope you get things sorted. And when you're ready, looking forward to seeing what you come up with!  :cheers:
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 01:01:39 pm by shponglefan »

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2020, 01:03:20 pm »
On the subject of retro development, I don't know if anyone here follows the 8-bit Guy, but he developed and released a couple retro games (C64 and DOS). Granted they aren't arcade games specifically, but it's still fascinating to see how they were created and released.  He's got a few making-of videos that are enlightening in the various limitations he had to work with (e.g. memory management). Especially impressive is that he learned assembly language to make them.



« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 01:05:03 pm by shponglefan »

meyer980

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 385
  • Last login:March 29, 2024, 04:00:11 pm
  • Building fun things for fun
    • sergiostuff.com/2020/04/15/felix-son-arcade-game/
    • Sergio Stuff
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2020, 02:34:06 pm »
Love the Felix and Son idea - great project! I see you used Attract Mode as a front end. Do you know if GameMaker supports running games in a core on Retropie/Retroarch? I’d like to just add my game to my existing system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gracias for the kind words! I do use Attract Mode, but on a PC. No, Gamemaker Studio doesn't currently compile for Raspberry Pi unfortunately. It can compile to Linux, but x86 versions. It can also compile to HTML5, so hypothetically, you could run your game in a browser on the Pi but that's not ideal for a variety of reasons. If support for a Pi is something you're aiming for, I'd suggest going the Python coding route. It's native to Pi and there are Python libraries to help you make games. I got into it a little bit, but ended up preferring the GUI of something like Gamemaker Studio, personally. OR you could write your game for NES or whatever, which the Pi has emulators for.

On the subject of retro development, I don't know if anyone here follows the 8-bit Guy, but he developed and released a couple retro games (C64 and DOS). Granted they aren't arcade games specifically, but it's still fascinating to see how they were created and released.  He's got a few making-of videos that are enlightening in the various limitations he had to work with (e.g. memory management). Especially impressive is that he learned assembly language to make them.

I'm a fan of 8 Bit Guy on YouTube! I've been following his stuff closely, and even purchased Planet X2 on 5.25 floppy disk for my brother-in-law who collects vintage machines.

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19400
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:59:21 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2020, 03:39:40 pm »
I'm also a huge fan of 8-bit guy, which is ironic because I'm decidedly not a fan of the old pcs he tends to want to develop on.  I'm in the camp of thought that true pc gaming didn't start until hardware accelerated video cards came on the market.  The pcs always had better specs on paper, but until that point they were always playing catchup to the consoles of the day in terms of games.  Planet X2 is pretty impressive though and I'm excited to see how his "new retro" pc he's designing turns out. 

formula409

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Last login:January 03, 2021, 02:13:17 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2020, 02:59:37 am »
I'm also a huge fan of 8-bit guy, which is ironic because I'm decidedly not a fan of the old pcs he tends to want to develop on.  I'm in the camp of thought that true pc gaming didn't start until hardware accelerated video cards came on the market.  The pcs always had better specs on paper, but until that point they were always playing catchup to the consoles of the day in terms of games.  Planet X2 is pretty impressive though and I'm excited to see how his "new retro" pc he's designing turns out.

Doom in 1993 was literally years ahead of what you could do on consoles. Even the Playstation and Nintendo 64 had to make compromises when porting Doom.

The PC was trash at 2D games though. It just couldn't compete with the dedicated hardware for it.

In terms of 2d game development, it's so trivial to use SDL2 or the DirectX Toolkit to make games that I really think more complicated game "engines" just get in the way. They tend to make a few complicated things easy to do but many simple things incredibly hard to do.

I bet it'd be a challenge to even get a Godot or Unity engine game outputting at a 15khz resolution to a CRT just because the people who make those engines don't even consider that use case.

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2020, 07:07:31 am »
Yeah, it's funny how PCs could handle early 2.5D games (e.g. Wolf3D, Doom, etc), but struggled with side-scrollers.

I bet it'd be a challenge to even get a Godot or Unity engine game outputting at a 15khz resolution to a CRT just because the people who make those engines don't even consider that use case.

I would think that would be more of a GPU/driver issue wouldn't it?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 07:11:00 am by shponglefan »

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19400
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:59:21 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2020, 01:18:54 pm »
Actually Doom was in development around the same time as Star Fox and while Doom was fake 3d Star Fox was true 3d..... so yeah, the consoles were still ahead.  That being said Doom also came out when hardware accelerated cards became popular and to have the game play well you needed a decent card.  (Which at the time was something pitiful like something with 4mb of memory... but still)

Yes 15khz is just a driver thing.  Most engines will let you render at any resolution the video card supports.... so it's just a matter of getting the video card to support it. 

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2020, 01:23:50 pm »
Actually Doom was in development around the same time as Star Fox and while Doom was fake 3d Star Fox was true 3d..... so yeah, the consoles were still ahead.

PCs could do polygons as well. PC flight sims had been doing full 3D for years.

Star Fox also ran slow as hell on original SNES hardware. So while the SNES could technically do 3D, it wasn't particularly stellar...

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19400
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:59:21 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2020, 01:38:51 pm »
Eh kind of.  I remember having some flight sims of the day and they chugged just as bad as Star Fox.  Granted you are correct, they came out earlier.  The only two advantages PCs had were ram and storage.  If I remember correctly it was actually storage space that hindered the snes doom port, for example. 

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2020, 02:33:13 pm »
I seem to remember X-Wing being pretty good though. That was '93 I think?

Though admittedly nostalgia goggles could be clouding my memories.

But yeah, in general until 3D accelerators came along, 3D gaming as a whole suffered.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 02:34:58 pm by shponglefan »

formula409

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Last login:January 03, 2021, 02:13:17 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2020, 12:39:03 am »
Actually Doom was in development around the same time as Star Fox and while Doom was fake 3d Star Fox was true 3d..... so yeah, the consoles were still ahead.  That being said Doom also came out when hardware accelerated cards became popular and to have the game play well you needed a decent card.  (Which at the time was something pitiful like something with 4mb of memory... but still)

Yes 15khz is just a driver thing.  Most engines will let you render at any resolution the video card supports.... so it's just a matter of getting the video card to support it.

Uh, no. Doom came out years before 3D accelerators on the PC. 3D accelerators were at around the time of Quake 1, not Doom.

Doom ran at 35fps and Starfox ran at like 10fps while having significantly simpler graphics. On top of everything else, Doom was playable over a network with cooperative and competitive play.

The PC Doom was literally a generation and a half ahead of anything on the SNES.

formula409

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Last login:January 03, 2021, 02:13:17 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2020, 12:41:44 am »
Yeah, it's funny how PCs could handle early 2.5D games (e.g. Wolf3D, Doom, etc), but struggled with side-scrollers.

I bet it'd be a challenge to even get a Godot or Unity engine game outputting at a 15khz resolution to a CRT just because the people who make those engines don't even consider that use case.

I would think that would be more of a GPU/driver issue wouldn't it?

No, it's more of a problem with engines like Unity not giving you fine grained control over controlling the refresh rate or video mode a game is running at. Does Unity even give you control over whether a game runs in full screen exclusive mode anymore?

Howard_Casto

  • Idiot Police
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19400
  • Last login:Yesterday at 10:59:21 pm
  • Your Post's Soul is MINE!!! .......Again??
    • The Dragon King
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2020, 01:22:26 am »
Actually Doom was in development around the same time as Star Fox and while Doom was fake 3d Star Fox was true 3d..... so yeah, the consoles were still ahead.  That being said Doom also came out when hardware accelerated cards became popular and to have the game play well you needed a decent card.  (Which at the time was something pitiful like something with 4mb of memory... but still)

Yes 15khz is just a driver thing.  Most engines will let you render at any resolution the video card supports.... so it's just a matter of getting the video card to support it.

Uh, no. Doom came out years before 3D accelerators on the PC. 3D accelerators were at around the time of Quake 1, not Doom.

Doom ran at 35fps and Starfox ran at like 10fps while having significantly simpler graphics. On top of everything else, Doom was playable over a network with cooperative and competitive play.

The PC Doom was literally a generation and a half ahead of anything on the SNES.

Some of what you said isn't true but there's no point in arguing with you as you've made up your mind already so we are going to have to agree to disagree. 

formula409

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Last login:January 03, 2021, 02:13:17 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2020, 02:52:41 am »
Actually Doom was in development around the same time as Star Fox and while Doom was fake 3d Star Fox was true 3d..... so yeah, the consoles were still ahead.  That being said Doom also came out when hardware accelerated cards became popular and to have the game play well you needed a decent card.  (Which at the time was something pitiful like something with 4mb of memory... but still)

Yes 15khz is just a driver thing.  Most engines will let you render at any resolution the video card supports.... so it's just a matter of getting the video card to support it.

Uh, no. Doom came out years before 3D accelerators on the PC. 3D accelerators were at around the time of Quake 1, not Doom.

Doom ran at 35fps and Starfox ran at like 10fps while having significantly simpler graphics. On top of everything else, Doom was playable over a network with cooperative and competitive play.

The PC Doom was literally a generation and a half ahead of anything on the SNES.

Some of what you said isn't true but there's no point in arguing with you as you've made up your mind already so we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Actually everything said there is factually true.

pbj

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10875
  • Last login:Yesterday at 07:58:32 pm
  • Obey.
    • The Chris Burke Band
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2020, 07:44:00 am »
Arguing about Doom 30 years later.  Incredible. 

 :applaud:

Anyway, I learned about this one at Zapcon and I’ve enjoyed it:

https://rikoclon.itch.io/retro-space-ball

 :cheers:

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2020, 12:36:58 pm »
No, it's more of a problem with engines like Unity not giving you fine grained control over controlling the refresh rate or video mode a game is running at. Does Unity even give you control over whether a game runs in full screen exclusive mode anymore?

I can't speak to Unity as I've only dabbled with it.

But a lot of that will still come down things not necessarily directly in the engine's control (e.g. API used, drivers, hardware). Is something like 15khz resolution even possible on modern GPU hardware? If not, then it's a bit moot whether the engine would support it.

We should also keep in mind that modern game engines are aimed at modern platforms. It's not entirely reasonable to expect vintage hardware/modes/etc to be supported. That's not what they are for.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 12:41:37 pm by shponglefan »

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2020, 12:44:45 pm »
Doom ran at 35fps and Starfox ran at like 10fps while having significantly simpler graphics.

I don't know if I'd write off StarFox as being "simpler" graphically. It did use true 3D polygons, something that Doom didn't. Doom was essentially pseudo-3D. I don't know if they're entirely comparable that way.

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2020, 12:45:29 pm »
Arguing about Doom 30 years later.  Incredible. 

Well it is the Citizen Kane of video games.  ;D

Gilrock

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1049
  • Last login:March 30, 2024, 05:15:46 pm
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2020, 01:03:51 pm »
Anyone remember the Doom mod where all the enemies were Barney's and the only weapon was the chainsaw? LOL

formula409

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Last login:January 03, 2021, 02:13:17 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2020, 01:27:32 pm »
Doom ran at 35fps and Starfox ran at like 10fps while having significantly simpler graphics.

I don't know if I'd write off StarFox as being "simpler" graphically. It did use true 3D polygons, something that Doom didn't. Doom was essentially pseudo-3D. I don't know if they're entirely comparable that way.

Starfox was a rail shooter that didn't even have texture mapping. The geometry was incredibly simple.

Doom's rendering of maps is "true 3d." It's a 3d projection of 2d map data. Just because the in game objects are sprites doesn't mean that the game wasn't 3d.

Doom not only had texture mapping, which Starfox didn't, but it had PERSPECTIVE CORRECT texture mapping, something that consoles didn't get until the N64.

John Carmack was a stickler about all Doom ports having perspective correct texture mapping, and so the Saturn version couldn't even use hardware acceleration and had to do the rendering in software, which is part of the reason it ran so badly.

So let's tally it up:

1. Perspective correct texture mapping vs no texture mapping at all
2. 35fps vs 10fps
3. Complete freedom of movement in 3D maps with more complex geometry than Starfox's vs. a rail shooter with simpler geometry and absurd amounts of pop in
4. Modem and IPX multiplayer vs nothing

Gee. It's almost like Doom was a generation and a half ahead of console technology.

Grasshopper

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2380
  • Last login:November 08, 2023, 07:20:31 am
  • life, don't talk to me about life
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2020, 02:24:06 pm »
Yep. Doom used nothing more than raw CPU processing power, and a very clever binary space partition algorithm to create a convincing illusion of moving within a 3D world.

I remember first playing it on a fairly mediocre PC in 1993, and it completely blew me away. It was the first game that really exposed the vast difference in processing power that has opened up between a typical X86 PC, and the other PC and console platforms that were around at that time. Once I'd tried Doom, I realised my trusty Amiga's days were numbered.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2020, 03:58:25 pm »
So let's tally it up:

1. Perspective correct texture mapping vs no texture mapping at all
2. 35fps vs 10fps
3. Complete freedom of movement in 3D maps with more complex geometry than Starfox's vs. a rail shooter with simpler geometry and absurd amounts of pop in
4. Modem and IPX multiplayer vs nothing

Gee. It's almost like Doom was a generation and a half ahead of console technology.

Doom wasn't "true 3D" in the same context of the rendering of polygons in Starfox. Yes, it had impressive technology I won't deny that. But its rendering of 3D maps was still limited. For example, there was no stacking of room geometry, no slopes and no vertical angle changes for head movement.

And as you said, it still relied on sprites for depiction of in-game objects. It wasn't unlike Quake in 1996 that we got a true 3D first-person shooter.

This is why Doom and its ilk are generally considered 2.5D shooters and why the comparison with Starfox is a bit odd. A more appropriate comparison would be flight-sim or space games from that era of PC gaming (e.g. X-Wing), many of which used true 3D polygonal geometry, something Doom did not.

edited to add: Descent would also be a good comparator although it came out in 1995, 2 years later. But it featured true 3D environments.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 04:05:12 pm by shponglefan »

Kingcade

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Last login:October 14, 2021, 04:33:12 pm
  • Building a steampunk arcade cabinet
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2020, 03:59:11 pm »
Wow, you guys certainly know how to derail a thread!  ;D

Some modern ATI graphics cards support a 15Khz signal, and the Raspberry Pi supports it as well. I think the signal to the monitor is at a lower level than the graphics engine (e.g. Unity or Godot). The graphics engine would control the resolution and refresh rate (e.g. 60Hz) while the graphics card driver would control the VGA timings (15Khz). The game pbj posted was built with Unity and can run at 320x200. I'm betting you could run it on a 15Khz monitor with the proper graphics card.

Anyway, I plan to try this with Godot, so I'll let you all know. Maybe I'll make a Doom clone just to bring this tread back on-topic.  >:D
KINGCADE - my Steampunk Wild West penny arcade-style cabinet
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,161105.msg1697383.html#msg1697383

formula409

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Last login:January 03, 2021, 02:13:17 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2020, 05:09:17 pm »
Wow, you guys certainly know how to derail a thread!  ;D

Some modern ATI graphics cards support a 15Khz signal, and the Raspberry Pi supports it as well. I think the signal to the monitor is at a lower level than the graphics engine (e.g. Unity or Godot). The graphics engine would control the resolution and refresh rate (e.g. 60Hz) while the graphics card driver would control the VGA timings (15Khz). The game pbj posted was built with Unity and can run at 320x200. I'm betting you could run it on a 15Khz monitor with the proper graphics card.

Anyway, I plan to try this with Godot, so I'll let you all know. Maybe I'll make a Doom clone just to bring this tread back on-topic.  >:D

Look into supporting super resolutions.

Almost no one is actually running at specific resolutions anymore. They're just creating super resolutions like 2560x200 and letting the program handle it.

I don't think CRT users want to have to be creating a bunch of custom modelines for different games.

formula409

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Last login:January 03, 2021, 02:13:17 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2020, 05:16:06 pm »
So let's tally it up:

1. Perspective correct texture mapping vs no texture mapping at all
2. 35fps vs 10fps
3. Complete freedom of movement in 3D maps with more complex geometry than Starfox's vs. a rail shooter with simpler geometry and absurd amounts of pop in
4. Modem and IPX multiplayer vs nothing

Gee. It's almost like Doom was a generation and a half ahead of console technology.

Doom wasn't "true 3D" in the same context of the rendering of polygons in Starfox. Yes, it had impressive technology I won't deny that. But its rendering of 3D maps was still limited. For example, there was no stacking of room geometry, no slopes and no vertical angle changes for head movement.

And as you said, it still relied on sprites for depiction of in-game objects. It wasn't unlike Quake in 1996 that we got a true 3D first-person shooter.

This is why Doom and its ilk are generally considered 2.5D shooters and why the comparison with Starfox is a bit odd. A more appropriate comparison would be flight-sim or space games from that era of PC gaming (e.g. X-Wing), many of which used true 3D polygonal geometry, something Doom did not.

edited to add: Descent would also be a good comparator although it came out in 1995, 2 years later. But it featured true 3D environments.

People are vastly overstating the complexity of scenes in Star Fox. It was literally rectangles for buildings. The geometry of Doom maps is far more complicated and the game doesn't have any pop in so it doesn't cheat by just rendering stuff when it's almost on top of you.

It doesn't matter if it had certain limitations. Star Fox had limitations too. The bottom line is that Doom is a 3D rendering of 2D map data. Objects have x, y, and z positions. Star Fox is doing far more fakery/smoke and mirrors than Doom.

The whole way people try to put games in dimensional boxes is silly, honestly. It ignores the fact that there are differences between game data and rendering of game data.

Doom is a 3D projection of 2d data.

Streets of Rage is a 2D projection of 3d data. Yes, Streets of Rage is a 3d game. You have an X, Y, and Z position.

Trying to pretend that Doom isn't a 3D game just because it took shortcuts due to hardware limitations of the time is ridiculous.

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2020, 05:50:28 pm »
Trying to pretend that Doom isn't a 3D game just because it took shortcuts due to hardware limitations of the time is ridiculous.

All I'm saying is that Doom isn't a full 3D game in the same vein as something like Star Fox. Star Fox uses full 3D polygonal geometry. Doom doesn't. That's it.

I do agree that Doom is a more impressive game overall (esp. for the PC technology at the time). But comparing it to Star Fox is comparing apples and oranges.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 06:03:11 pm by shponglefan »

formula409

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Last login:January 03, 2021, 02:13:17 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2020, 03:19:25 am »
Trying to pretend that Doom isn't a 3D game just because it took shortcuts due to hardware limitations of the time is ridiculous.

All I'm saying is that Doom isn't a full 3D game in the same vein as something like Star Fox. Star Fox uses full 3D polygonal geometry. Doom doesn't. That's it.

I do agree that Doom is a more impressive game overall (esp. for the PC technology at the time). But comparing it to Star Fox is comparing apples and oranges.

Actually, no, you're wrong. Doom is closer to full 3D than Starfox is. If you look at what Starfox's doing, it's doing more cheating than Doom is. Starfox can't even have environments with variable floor heights. Doom can.

Polygons have nothing to do with whether a game is 3D or not. You can have a 3D voxel based game. You can have a 3D super scaler sprite based game. Powerdrift actually has "floors above floors" even though it renders everything with sprites.

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2020, 06:38:35 am »
Polygons have nothing to do with whether a game is 3D or not. You can have a 3D voxel based game. You can have a 3D super scaler sprite based game. Powerdrift actually has "floors above floors" even though it renders everything with sprites.

For context, when comparing the "3Dness" of a game engine, I'm referring to the ability to render objects in 3D space from different angles and perspectives. The less limited something is in terms of that rendering, the more "3D" it is.

I agree that the vast majority of games use various visual methods to convey a sense of 3D space. Even the use of parallax scrolling on platformers is meant to convey a sense of depth. In cases of 2D sprite based games such methods are primarily illusionary. We're not dealing with proper 3D geometry.

Taking something like Powerdrift, it uses sprite scaling to convey a sense of 3D. But it's limited. For example, if I wanted to render an overhead view of the track instead... well, I couldn't. The only way to create such a view would be to have an artist create a whole new set of sprites and then reprogram the game for that POV.

Doom is more advanced, but it still has similar limitations. It is just a projection of a 2D map with sector heights and clever rendering to give the illusion of 3D space. But there is still a lot missing in Doom. For example, when we talk about rooms-above-rooms, we're really talking about the ability for the engine to render planar surfaces above each other. In the case of Doom it can render a floor and a ceiling, but that's it. In absence of those it renders a flat 2D background to create the illusion of an outside world and buildings within that world. Yet those buildings that you can go inside don't have roofs. You could never look down on the tops of those buildings. The Doom engine cannot render that perspective.

When it comes to try 3D polygonal geometry, it's generally possible to render it from any angle and perspective. Such is the case in Starfox which even the simple flyby level introduction demonstrates. Likewise there are 3D polygonal objects in Starfox that for all their simplicity would be impossible to render in the Doom engine. And no doubt Starfox employs its share of pseudo-3D trickery as well, such as on the planet levels using flat backdrops to convey a sense of a world (same as Doom does). But Starfox still employs 3D objects not capable of being rendered in something like Doom.

In theory in world of unlimited performance, the underlying engine/code-base used for Starfox should be capable to creating the 3D geometry for a game like Doom. But the reverse simply isn't true, because the way the Doom engine is build prohibits the type of geometry used in Starfox.

formula409

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Last login:January 03, 2021, 02:13:17 pm
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2020, 07:00:39 am »
Polygons have nothing to do with whether a game is 3D or not. You can have a 3D voxel based game. You can have a 3D super scaler sprite based game. Powerdrift actually has "floors above floors" even though it renders everything with sprites.

For context, when comparing the "3Dness" of a game engine, I'm referring to the ability to render objects in 3D space from different angles and perspectives. The less limited something is in terms of that rendering, the more "3D" it is.

I agree that the vast majority of games use various visual methods to convey a sense of 3D space. Even the use of parallax scrolling on platformers is meant to convey a sense of depth. In cases of 2D sprite based games such methods are primarily illusionary. We're not dealing with proper 3D geometry.

Taking something like Powerdrift, it uses sprite scaling to convey a sense of 3D. But it's limited. For example, if I wanted to render an overhead view of the track instead... well, I couldn't. The only way to create such a view would be to have an artist create a whole new set of sprites and then reprogram the game for that POV.

Doom is more advanced, but it still has similar limitations. It is just a projection of a 2D map with sector heights and clever rendering to give the illusion of 3D space. But there is still a lot missing in Doom. For example, when we talk about rooms-above-rooms, we're really talking about the ability for the engine to render planar surfaces above each other. In the case of Doom it can render a floor and a ceiling, but that's it. In absence of those it renders a flat 2D background to create the illusion of an outside world and buildings within that world. Yet those buildings that you can go inside don't have roofs. You could never look down on the tops of those buildings. The Doom engine cannot render that perspective.

When it comes to try 3D polygonal geometry, it's generally possible to render it from any angle and perspective. Such is the case in Starfox which even the simple flyby level introduction demonstrates. Likewise there are 3D polygonal objects in Starfox that for all their simplicity would be impossible to render in the Doom engine. And no doubt Starfox employs its share of pseudo-3D trickery as well, such as on the planet levels using flat backdrops to convey a sense of a world (same as Doom does). But Starfox still employs 3D objects not capable of being rendered in something like Doom.

In theory in world of unlimited performance, the underlying engine/code-base used for Starfox should be capable to creating the 3D geometry for a game like Doom. But the reverse simply isn't true, because the way the Doom engine is build prohibits the type of geometry used in Starfox.

Again, wrong. Star Fox isn't even capable of having floors of different heights. Not only is it "not true 3d," it's not even capable of reproducing Doom maps. And I won't even get into the fact that the way collision detection happens in that game's "engine" (if you can even call it that) is a complete hack and wouldn't scale to any 3d game.

It's simply not true. Doom is more of a 3d game than Star Fox is.

shponglefan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1600
  • Last login:December 15, 2022, 07:22:35 am
  • Correct horse battery staple
Re: Anyone programming new retro arcade games?
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2020, 07:09:19 am »
Again, wrong. Star Fox isn't even capable of having floors of different heights. Not only is it "not true 3d," it's not even capable of reproducing Doom maps.

The 3D polygons in Star Fox are true 3D geometric objects. In that context, yes it can have "floors" of different heights because we're talking about rendering of 3D geometric objects. The missions featuring interiors in Star Fox are perfect examples of that; and they further feature things not possible in Doom.

I'm not really sure why you think it's not "true 3D" when the ability to render 3D geometric objects from any angle is basically the very definition of that in the context of graphics rendering.

Quote
Doom is more of a 3d game than Star Fox is.

Given the various limitations of Doom's rendering engine when it comes to rendering of geometry, I don't see any metric by which that could possibly be true.

The Doom engine is incapable of rendering many of the 3D objects in Star Fox. For example that yellow barrier in the below screenshot is impossible to render in the Doom engine. Ditto the sloped accents on the corners of the corridor.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 07:22:48 am by shponglefan »