Battlezone controls

[zimbar]

Hi all,
  I'm looking to build a Battlezone cabinet out of an Arcade1up cabinet, and need some help in getting the controls to work.  How do I configure 2 joysticks to work in concert to control the tank? 

Any other games use two joysticks?

Thanks,
Patrick

[PL1]

How do I configure 2 joysticks to work in concert to control the tank? 

Second stick needs four encoder inputs for directions, same as any 4-way/8-way stick.
(You are using 8-ways, top-fires, or triggersticks, right?)

MAME doesn't care if the direction inputs are "joystick inputs" or "button inputs".

If you're using an IPac, put the left stick on the default P1 joystick inputs and the right stick on the default P2 joystick inputs.

If you're using a single gamepad encoder, put the left stick on the default P1 joystick inputs and the right stick on four button inputs. i.e. Buttons 9-12.

If you're using two gamepad encoders,  put the left stick on the first encoder's joystick inputs and the right stick on the second encoder's joystick inputs.
***  Avoid if possible.  This approach may cause problems with Windows renumbering controllers on reboot.  ***

You'll need to remap many of the dual-stick game controls in the MAME "Input(this game)" menu.

If you're asking how to drive a tank, the directions are on the Battlezone control panel overlay.
- Left stick Up/Down controls the left track.
- Right stick Up/Down controls the right track.
- Pushing forward on the left stick makes the left track go forward ==> the tank moves "forward right".

Any other games use two joysticks?

Here's a solid start for making your game list. (Step #2 in the design process outlined here in the FAQ.)
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/Joysticks#Games_with_Dual_Joysticks

There are more listed on ProgettoEmma.  Some aren't technically dual stick games, but are playable on a dual stick setup.
(i.e. Six of the games used a controller like the Taito Aim-n-Fire.)
http://www.progettoemma.net/indice.php?page=1&control=doublejoy&romset=&devfilter=yes&biosfilter=no&mechfilter=no&risorsa=all&working=tutti&lett=


Scott

[zimbar]

THANK YOU very much!!  Yes, the physical wiring of the two joystick was what I was asking about.  I'll wire them up as you suggested and see how that goes.

Thanks again!!

[jennifer]

Depends what it is you are building... Battle zone was a vector game originally, Happ sells analog sticks for original hardware (bit spendy for 2)🙁, However there are some really good vids on the Utubes on rewinding yokes to convert television tubes to color vector...Exciting world we live in!

[PL1]

Depends what it is you are building... Battle zone was a vector game originally, Happ sells analog sticks for original hardware (bit spendy for 2)🙁, However there are some really good vids on the Utubes on rewinding yokes to convert television tubes to color vector...Exciting world we live in!

Based on the first post in this thread, I doubt OP is going to jump into the really deep part of the deep end with rewinding a B+W TV yoke (original was not a color vector monitor), green and red color overlays, mirrors, and original PCBs for this project, but maybe some day . . .   

Also, original Battlezone sticks are hard-to-find and spendy (especially NOS ones like these), but they are 2-ways, not analog.
- See the lower left corner of this schematic and/or pages 23 and 36 of this manual.


Scott

[leapinlew]

Depends what it is you are building... Battle zone was a vector game originally, Happ sells analog sticks for original hardware (bit spendy for 2)🙁, However there are some really good vids on the Utubes on rewinding yokes to convert television tubes to color vector...Exciting world we live in!

Based on the first post in this thread, I doubt OP is going to jump into the really deep part of the deep end with rewinding a B+W TV yoke (original was not a color vector monitor), green and red color overlays, mirrors, and original PCBs for this project, but maybe some day . . .   

Gonna have to agree with Scott. You might be coming on a little strong there jennifer....

I'd be willing to bet these joysticks would be pretty good: https://www.amazon.com/Flight-Joystick-Trigger-Button-Arcade/dp/B0786NFSLM Cut a slot for them to only move back and forward and they'd play pretty good. I have one on my Gorf.

[jennifer]

I supose you guys are right I just get exited at the prospects of such a build...Bet you can't guess what my new secret project is...LOL.

[PL1]

Bet you can't guess what my new secret project is...LOL.

Definitely looking forward to it.   


Scott

[Mike A]

I supose you guys are right I just get exited at the prospects of such a build...Bet you can't guess what my new secret project is...LOL.

Ventilation for your meth lab?

[jennifer]

The original gimbal sticks are ugly spendy, will agree with you Scott, I just got one of them for 550.00 (long story) however the analog Happ sticks although a different style do incorporate 5k pots on a 4 way, cant imagine why that wouldn't run original hardware, but ya, at 250.00 apiece not a cheap project...As for you Mike, Meth? You must be thinking of some other girl, Jenn doesn't drink or do drugs...Grow a pair and learn to weld pal.

[Mike A]

I hope to someday have as much hair on my chest as you do Jennifer.

[PL1]

the analog Happ sticks although a different style do incorporate 5k pots on a 4 way, cant imagine why that wouldn't run original hardware

There are similarities between the Happ Heavy Duty Analog here and the Happ Heavy Duty 8-way here, but the phrase "5k pots on a 4 way" makes no sense from a mechanical or electrical perspective.   
- The bases for the analog and 8-way sticks are very different.

 

- I've never seen or heard of an analog stick with 4-way restriction used on original arcade hardware.  Can you name one game with that type of setup?
- Maybe you're thinking about the Tron stick that used a version of the Happ Heavy Duty 8-way stick with a restrictor that made hitting diagonals more difficult but not impossible?

Getting back to the question of using an analog stick on original Battlezone hardware -- it's definitely not the right way to wire things, but you might be able to rig a pot with ground on the wiper (tab 2) and the forward and reverse inputs on tabs 1 and 3.
- Whether or not that would work depends on how the inputs respond to using variable resistors instead of microswitches.
- No idea what threshold of resistance triggers the inputs.   


Scott

[Arroyo]

I have a Battle Zone.  The sticks are two way restricted micro switches with one trigger button on the top of the right stick.

Schematic if it’s helpful:

[jennifer]

Arroyo is 100% and gave you the answer, effectively 2 sticks, 2 way (2+2) is a four way, Its not all about saving money there, I would venture to guess it was more about the feel and experience of driving a tank using 2 sticks...Tron is another good example, drive a tank with 1 four way stick, however that is not utilizing the 5k pots, and is a raster game...Food Fight has got a 4 way restricted stick with analog pots (same stick thats in Battle zone) but again a raster game...Red Baron, a sister machine to Battle Zone used not only the same cabinet in both upright and cock pit versions (and the fabled cabaret (3 supposing) but you guessed it, a X/Y deflection vector that used the same stick, a 5k analog on a 4 way 😁.

[PL1]

You've been around more than long enough to know the standard meaning and usage of these terms, Jennifer.   

Arroyo is 100%

Agreed.  His description of Battlezone sticks is accurate and complete.   

effectively 2 sticks, 2 way (2+2) is a four way

Using that logic, a Robotron cab with two 8-way sticks is effectively a 16-way -- same as the disc on an Intellivision controller.      

I would venture to guess it was more about the feel and experience of driving a tank using 2 sticks

Agreed.  A twin-stick setup is similar to the steering levers on the WWII-era M4 Sherman tank.

Tron is another good example, drive a tank with 1 four way stick

The Tron stick is an 8-way stick with a special restrictor that makes it difficult to hit diagonals.

MCP and I/O Tower level game play allows 8-way movement.

Tank and Light Cycle level game play only allows 4-way movement.
- Light cycle will zig-zag between the associated cardinal directions (i.e. up and right) if you hit a diagonal.

Nothing changes on the Tron stick based on which level you're playing, unlike Le Chuck's Darkade build that uses a stick with in-game autoswitching between 8-way and 4-way for TRON.

Food Fight has got a 4 way restricted stick with analog pots (same stick thats in Battle zone)

1. An analog stick is by definition not a 4-way.

An 8-bit A/D converter will output a value between 0 and 255 (2⁸ = 256) so if anything, an analog stick with an 8-bit converter is a 65,536-way stick (256²) and an analog stick with a 10-bit A/D converter (2¹⁰ = 1024) is a 1,048,576-way stick. (1024²)

Since the possible number of directions isn't restricted by the analog stick itself, it's easier and more accurate to describe it using the number of axes.

If you applied the description "2-axis" to a Food Fight analog stick, that would be accurate and factually correct.

2. There is no restrictor plate on the stick so by definition it can't be a "restricted stick".

3. The Food Fight stick is definitely not the same stick that's in Battlezone -- it's not the same ballpark, not the same league, and not even the same sport.   

Compare page 36 of the BZ manual here to page 27 of the Food Fight manual here.

The only part that looks the same between the two sitcks is the centering bellows.
- Different part numbers for the bellows, not sure if you can substitute one for the other.   

Red Baron

I agree that the Red Baron cab, monitor, and wiring are almost the same as Battlezone.

The relevant differences are the controls and the control wiring.

https://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9289

Except for the controller inputs, the wiring harness is nearly pin-for-pin compatible with Battlezone. Red Baron requires just two additional wires: Aux. PCB pin W to Vec/Gen PCB pin W -22VDC and Vec/Gen PCB pin L to Vec/Gen PCB pin P Ties X-invert to GND. It is possible to power up a Red Baron board in a Battlezone and vice versa, but playing the game is nearly impossible without proper controls.

Scott

[jennifer]

Curiously you are not wrong...I went down into the dungeon and pulled the control panel off my BZ with intention to take some pics...Well, aparently I have 2 red baron sticks on there ...Thats the way I got it and after close inspection it is anything but original...Sorry.

[PL1]

I went down into the dungeon and pulled the control panel off my BZ with intention to take some pics...Well, aparently I have 2 red baron sticks on there ...Thats the way I got it and after close inspection it is anything but original.

Well, that explains the confusion.   

Was your cab's boardset/harness swapped/converted to Red Baron (see Technical section here for some conversion indicators) or did someone just put two rare and expensive analog sticks on the panel for farts and giggles?

If the boardset and harness are original, maybe you can test this theory and save a bunch on finding another original BZ stick.   

Getting back to the question of using an analog stick on original Battlezone hardware -- it's definitely not the right way to wire things, but you might be able to rig a pot with ground on the wiper (tab 2) and the forward and reverse inputs on tabs 1 and 3.

Unless logic low isn't a bit less than 1/2 of the operating voltage for the inputs (extremely doubtful), the PCB should have no problem dealing with 0-5k ohms resistance from the two Y-axis pots wired lilke 4 variable resistors since it is designed to deal with 0-multiple megohms (open) resistance from a microswitch.

If nothing else, you can sell one of those analog sticks (check out the price here  ) and get another original BZ stick to go with the one you recently got.   


Scott
EDIT: Corrected logic level statement since a logic low is what triggers the input.   

[jennifer]

They are not hooked up at all, aparently the sticks were just shoved in the holes back in the day (was bought not working forever ago) and the bottom shows signs of water damage and mice...Kind of a shame I know, but it was the inspiration behind operation 27" color vector project, (Red baron, in a Star Wars clone) and will be parted out.