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Author Topic: a couple of quick questions  (Read 12368 times)

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Jimbo

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a couple of quick questions
« on: June 03, 2020, 04:50:27 am »
I've used GroovyArcade in the past with an X600 card and a Hantarex Polo/3 15Khz arcade monitor.  It worked fine. Really quick boot time, but some of the later games struggled a bit.

So a couple of questions...

1) Can someone tell me what the benefit is of using CRT Emudriver on WIndows over using GroovyArcade on linux?  I like GroovyArcade as it boots quickly and is simple to set up yet flexible to tweak.  But maybe I'm missing something if I'm not using Windows... ?

2) Looking here: http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=333#p333 I can see that probably the best card to go with is an ATI Radeon HD 4XXX as that has been confirmed to have no low dotclock restrictions.  Is that still the case?  Ideally I'd like the most powerful card without a noisy fan, bearing in mind I am *only* connecting this up to a Hantarex Polo/3 15Khz CRT.   The most recent games I plan to play would probably be late 90s.

Thanks!


psakhis

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2020, 06:36:42 am »
There is no one answer...

I prefer windows, other prefers linux...best card is ATI HD 5xxx, 6xxx or 7xxx for better suport of directx11.

In windows do you have alternative software (pixel art games by Gog or Steam), more emulators and backends (PCSX2 runs better with d3d11 for example), but surely linux will have other benefits.

Jimbo

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2020, 10:37:04 am »
Thanks

I should have mentioned, I'm only ever planning on running groovymame on this, but you have a point on the availability of other emulators should I change my mind later on.

Do the HD 5xxx, 6xxx and 7xxx cards have any low dotclock restrictions?

Is there an updated list of graphics cards from the link I gave above?

Cheers

Sereosh

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2020, 10:40:35 am »
The CRT Emudriver download page offers a comprehensive list of supported GPUs

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=295

Always check the date posts have been made and edited (for instance, what you linked is from 2014), lost of things can change over time and sometimes google isn't the best at giving you the most up-to-date information. :-\

cools

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2020, 10:52:26 am »
Thanks

I should have mentioned, I'm only ever planning on running groovymame on this, but you have a point on the availability of other emulators should I change my mind later on.

Do the HD 5xxx, 6xxx and 7xxx cards have any low dotclock restrictions?

Is there an updated list of graphics cards from the link I gave above?

Cheers

Dotclock restrictions are not relevant nowadays - everyone (should be) using super resolutions.

Primer: running a game at a super wide resolution e.g. 2560x240, integer/fractionally scaling the horizontal and integer scaling the vertical if necessary. Major benefits: everything centered and full screen width (if fractional on the horizontal for those games that don't have a horizontal resolution that's a factor of the super resolution) automatically.

Buy a 6xxx or 7xxx

Substring

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2020, 10:55:53 am »
Linux guy here. Using my fork of groovyarcade, you get a working CRT PC in 10 mins, 15 eventually if you USB stick and HDD are slow. The configuration is VERY easy. You can even give a try to it as a livecd. But it's stuck to GroovyMAME for now.

Jimbo

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2020, 11:02:23 am »
Thanks guys

Are the super resolutions still used/preferred on 15Khz CRT monitors?

@Substring - I agree I set up groovyarcade in minutes before, I love it.  Would it work just as well with an HD 6xxx or 7xxx series card?  (I had an X600 before)

Cheers

cools

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2020, 11:22:34 am »
For Windows super resolutions are preferred (Windows is far faster mode switching when there are only a dozen modes rather than 100+). Linux it's not as clear cut, you still gain the benefits I've mentioned but there's no performance benefit when mode switching.

I'm sticking with Windows until Linux is proven to have the same or better latency for GroovyMAME.

Jimbo

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2020, 11:35:43 am »
Can you clarify what you mean by latency?  Do you mean input latency?  thanks again

cools

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2020, 11:38:13 am »
Yes.

Jimbo

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2020, 11:41:45 am »
Ah ok I see, so potentially another benefit for Windows over Linux.  Is this a known thing that windows has a lower latency?

Cheers

Arroyo

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2020, 01:13:25 pm »
Did you consider front ends as well?  I believe the available options are much more extensive on Windows..., and as mentioned other emulators like Demul, Dolphin (although does have a development version), etc.

Jimbo

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2020, 01:42:00 pm »
Yeah I use attractmode on work's groovyarcade machine, pretty happy with that one :)

I read earlier that linux will always have 1 more frame of delay due to SDL, is that still true?

Cheers

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2020, 02:02:38 pm »
Groovyarcade works with any gfx card i've known of so far. You may sometimes need to set a minimum dotclock as some resolutions may not work (that's my case).

Works with older and newer AMD cards, make sure you have a real analog output

Jimbo

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2020, 08:58:51 am »
Thanks guys...

Another issue I've always had with every version of windows I've ever owned, is they always tend to break at shutdown time at some point or other, or take ages.

Have you windows groovymame users solved this issue and get both fast boot up AND consistent quick working shutdowns (e.g. from a button or switch on your cab)?

Cheers

cools

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2020, 11:11:44 am »
I have an exit script called from AttractMode for shutdown that copies various (new/changed) files to a USB stick (hiscores etc), and then calls shutdown -s -f -t 0

It doesn't take long to run.


psakhis

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2020, 12:46:41 pm »
I have W7x64 with emulationstation and SSD disk, boot and shutdowns almost instant....
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 12:48:19 pm by psakhis »

formula409

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2020, 09:19:53 pm »
Windows is always going to be the clear winner just because you also have better support for playing native PC games on the machine.

Linux is starting at a disadvantage. In a context where everyone is hyper concerned about input lag, you really want to use Proton or some API translation layer when playing games?

Nah. Linux has never been a serious option.

Jimbo

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2020, 04:25:11 am »
Windows is always going to be the clear winner just because you also have better support for playing native PC games on the machine.

Linux is starting at a disadvantage. In a context where everyone is hyper concerned about input lag, you really want to use Proton or some API translation layer when playing games?

Nah. Linux has never been a serious option.

Hi, thanks.  You're right in that context, but that's not my use case at all.  If I were playing native PC games I'd use windows.  My questions in this thread are solely concerned with Mame on a 15Khz monitor.

Recapnation

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2020, 06:40:14 am »
Gotta quote myself here, sorry:

Here's just a few reasons:






You really need a 15-kHz set-up to properly play some of the best action games for WIN (much like you need another for 31-kHz, but I'll stop there), not to mention some key emulators MAME just can't compete with at the moment and have no LX version (how's Retro Arch on LX?). So there's no point (for now, at least) in messing also with LX for anyone interested in this stuff (and I really see no reason for not being interested if you are in MAME, but maybe that's just me).

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2020, 07:35:07 am »
Don't start trolling guys, that's real b/s. I hear windows arguments, never said they are worthless or that whatever you may say, Linux is de facto superior. The only thing I'm saying is that for a MAME only setup (please read every single word, just 3 of them in bold), probably 1 single frame of input lag of difference with windows that only hardcore obsessed people would notice, linux is a choice one could consider. Period. Spent hunddreds of hours to make it "linux noob friendly", can even be tested as a liveusb with no installation.

What I'm sure of, is that setting up groovyarcade takes 5 to 15 minutes from the usb boot to the first fully configured boot on disk (takes probably less than 30 keystrokes of just using arrows and enter). You can't beat that. For someone who reads the CRTemudriver howto and feels like it's a complicated thing, GroovyArcade is a viable choice worth testing if, once again, that person is only interested into MAME.

The perpetual linux bashing is really annoying. Time to open your minds guys ...

@recapnation : i do remember your quote, don't worry, as you were answering me that day ;) It's all just a matter of "what do I want to play" that should lead one towards windows or something else (raspberry with Retropie, GroovyArcade, whatever else we can think of).

Recapnation

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2020, 08:31:00 am »
Sure. But what can I do. It's been well over 15 years now that I indeed have been trying to expose the idea in my own forum that, if you want to play MAME games, you also want to play many Windows games which go as far as 1995 if you look at the Japanese scene, and it awes me how many people still don't. Bear with me.

cyb

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2020, 12:15:49 am »
Gotta quote myself here, sorry:


Recapnation,

Would you mind sharing the names of these games? They look very cool!

formula409

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2020, 01:45:04 am »
Windows is always going to be the clear winner just because you also have better support for playing native PC games on the machine.

Linux is starting at a disadvantage. In a context where everyone is hyper concerned about input lag, you really want to use Proton or some API translation layer when playing games?

Nah. Linux has never been a serious option.

Hi, thanks.  You're right in that context, but that's not my use case at all.  If I were playing native PC games I'd use windows.  My questions in this thread are solely concerned with Mame on a 15Khz monitor.

Why would someone interested in MAME not also be interested in say Street Fighter 4, where the Windows version is the best iteration of it? Just asking.

Recapnation

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2020, 05:31:04 am »
Because, unlike what you can easily find in MAME, that one's gross and ugly (even uglier if you use 15 kHz)?

Sorry, yeah; that's ultimately the point. But in the end, our time is usually very limited and MAME by itself has many of the essential pieces. So there's that.


Recapnation,

Would you mind sharing the names of these games? They look very cool!

Bot Vice, Road to Druaga, Galax, Iwanaga, Buster, La Mulana, Hakoniwa Explorer, Fullmetal Sister Marilu, Super Cyborg, Kamui, Hane-Hane Paradise, Rakuen no Guardian, Zen-Ichi, Mystik Belle.

But really, mentioning only those is doing an unfortunate disservice to the cause. Very few samples and not always the best ones either, especially if you include games for higher resolutions. For 2006 onwards, have a look at this thead:

http://postback.geedorah.com/foros/viewtopic.php?id=198

In 2016 most promising doujin/unofficial games started getting their own individual thread, though.

Jimbo

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2020, 05:37:09 am »
Why would someone interested in MAME not also be interested in say Street Fighter 4, where the Windows version is the best iteration of it? Just asking.

Cos fighters suck ass!  Just saying.

Seriously though, my point is not everyone likes the same games.  I hate fighters and I'm quite happy just playing the 80s arcade games that MAME provides.  I have no wish to play any others on my cab.  That was my reason for creating this thread really: why is CRT Emulator/Windows better than GroovyArcade/Linux.  Seems the only reason for my particular context is the 1 frame less input lag, if I'd even be able to notice that.

Thanks for everyone's replies btw.

cools

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2020, 07:42:32 am »
probably 1 single frame of input lag of difference with windows that only hardcore obsessed people would notice,

MAME + 15KHz on Linux in general is in a great place compared to 20 years ago. Back then Linux was the superior option, you could run a really barebones system - no GUI libs at all, and DOS + Windows were way behind.

I don't know when this one frame thing crept in, or if it's been there all along, but until someone nails it I've got to stick with Windows. It's not just a little bit noticeable, it's massive

Recapnation

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2020, 09:34:03 am »
If I recall, it's as old as the frame delay implementation, but I'd swear that the latest tests placed LX at the same level as WIN. Have you tried a recentish version?

cools

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2020, 10:26:38 am »
Not yet. If it's finally fixed then I'll need to rebuild a perfectly working system just because I've been banging on about it for years, so I'm putting it off until/unless lots of people show some proof it's done.  :angel:

formula409

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2020, 10:30:16 am »
Because, unlike what you can easily find in MAME, that one's gross and ugly (even uglier if you use 15 kHz)?

Sorry, yeah; that's ultimately the point. But in the end, our time is usually very limited and MAME by itself has many of the essential pieces. So there's that.


Recapnation,

Would you mind sharing the names of these games? They look very cool!

Bot Vice, Road to Druaga, Galax, Iwanaga, Buster, La Mulana, Hakoniwa Explorer, Fullmetal Sister Marilu, Super Cyborg, Kamui, Hane-Hane Paradise, Rakuen no Guardian, Zen-Ichi, Mystik Belle.

But really, mentioning only those is doing an unfortunate disservice to the cause. Very few samples and not always the best ones either, especially if you include games for higher resolutions. For 2006 onwards, have a look at this thead:

http://postback.geedorah.com/foros/viewtopic.php?id=198

In 2016 most promising doujin/unofficial games started getting their own individual thread, though.

Honestly people are just being stubborn. "Oh I have no interest in those games." Yeah I guess if you plug your ears and bury your head in the sand, you'll be able to ignore every game you would have actually liked to play, but the reality is that Windows is going to have games you'd like that won't run as well/if at all on Linux.

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2020, 02:50:49 pm »
Not yet. If it's finally fixed then I'll need to rebuild a perfectly working system just because I've been banging on about it for years, so I'm putting it off until/unless lots of people show some proof it's done.  :angel:

The latency issue in Linux got fixed by itself at some point, modern kernels don't have this problem.

Just for the sake of science I've tested sf2 on v0.222 (newswitchres WIP branch), with -fd 9, -nosleep, on both Windows 8.1 and Archlinux, using G.I.L.T, the latency figures are identical and subframe (4.35 ms for Windows, 4.36 ms for Linux), so next frame response basically.

Note: Linux requires -nosleep to reach high -fd values, because the sleep call doesn't return on time reliably, but that's all.

In Linux implementation we still don't have access to the raster position (only vblank) so -vsync_offset is not possible yet. Not a problem for CRTs however. We're working to have a cross-platform raster implementation.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead of pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2020, 04:24:41 pm »
Thanks Calamity, that's really useful information.

So... basically as I understand it, if only wanting to play MAME games on a 15Khz CRT, then GroovyArcade is no worse than choosing Windows with CRT Emudriver (in fact it's cheaper, and easier to setup).

@Substring... does GroovyArcade utilise the -nosleep ?

Thanks again all

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2020, 06:01:26 pm »
By default it doesn't, but you can easily edit the mame command line inside attract mode

keilmillerjr

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2020, 08:54:36 pm »
Bashing Linux because you want to play non arcade games on an arcade machine is really odd. Peaches and apples.

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2020, 02:27:10 am »
Linux is a terrible main OS for anyone but true nerds (so like 2~3% worldwide). For other uses though, like GroovyArcade is only one of tons of examples, we should be glad it exists.

Quote
-nosleep

It is required in Windows too depending on the conditions (weak pc or strong pc)

It can happen even with the lowest f_d values. Whether this is due to weird cpu or gpu power management or whatever other tech I dunno (eyeing laptops hardware in particular), but I've experienced this quite annoying situation where the tearing line you're trying to hide won't stay in the same place while playing, it will reappear in a lower or higher position, in a consitent manner. Also oddly f_d 1 can be more sensitive to that, in cases a minimum of 2 can be a safer choice when preparing for seeking stable offset values.

Strong Win PC though ? none of that happens. Completely different experience. You can even use imprecise offset values and still efficiently hide tearing.
Setting up all the games is like 10 times faster.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 03:14:22 am by schmerzkaufen »

cools

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2020, 09:55:55 am »
Not yet. If it's finally fixed then I'll need to rebuild a perfectly working system just because I've been banging on about it for years, so I'm putting it off until/unless lots of people show some proof it's done.  :angel:

The latency issue in Linux got fixed by itself at some point, modern kernels don't have this problem.

Just for the sake of science I've tested sf2 on v0.222 (newswitchres WIP branch), with -fd 9, -nosleep, on both Windows 8.1 and Archlinux, using G.I.L.T, the latency figures are identical and subframe (4.35 ms for Windows, 4.36 ms for Linux), so next frame response basically.

Note: Linux requires -nosleep to reach high -fd values, because the sleep call doesn't return on time reliably, but that's all.

In Linux implementation we still don't have access to the raster position (only vblank) so -vsync_offset is not possible yet. Not a problem for CRTs however. We're working to have a cross-platform raster implementation.

Argh. I've got a new interface board coming soon I was planning on a full rebuild anyway, so I guess it's Linux time. Shame there's no good clrmame alternative (and yes, I'm one of the weird people that uses most of the esoteric functionality available), it doesn't work well in WINE.

Question - vsync_offset not available. On my CRT (Windows) cabinet, enabling frame_delay causes that tear line that I'm supposed to remove with vsync_offset - there's no tear line on Linux? Or should it not be happening under Windows?

Linux is a terrible main OS for anyone but true nerds (so like 2~3% worldwide).
 

Nah, it's just familiarity with Windows that make it a problem for mainstream users.

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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2020, 10:14:14 am »

Interesting to read that the linux kernel lag is solved. I saw before that someone had fixed it in 1 kernel, so is it now fixed in all kernels? 

Oh,  vsync_offset not available for LCD screens. So I still can't try out/swap to linux.   :(
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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2020, 11:03:01 am »
Question - vsync_offset not available. On my CRT (Windows) cabinet, enabling frame_delay causes that tear line that I'm supposed to remove with vsync_offset - there's no tear line on Linux? Or should it not be happening under Windows?

The tear line happens exactly the same on Linux. However, there should be no tear line unless you're using a really high resolution (typical LCD res) or super resolutions on a CRT. The typical 480p mode on 31 kHz CRT shouldn't trigger the tear line either, unless it's a super resolution (super wide). Since super resolutions aren't required on Linux in most cases, this shouldn't be a problem there. A very weak video card can also be a problem.
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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2020, 11:12:33 am »
non arcade games on an arcade machine is really odd

You do know that "arcade games" designed for home systems have been a thing since the 8-bit days, don't you?


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Re: a couple of quick questions
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2020, 12:27:49 pm »
Linux is a terrible main OS for anyone but true nerds (so like 2~3% worldwide).
 
Nah, it's just familiarity with Windows that make it a problem for mainstream users.

Nah, it's terrible because it is made by and for nerds, with nerds logic, ideological bias, and expectations, and of course the usual blinders and denial in regards to any non-nerd needs and criticism.
Like too many projects in the FOSS world are anyway, baseline MAME included.

Look up the "OS learning curve" meme : it is the truest thing ever about Linux period.

Linux's fine and its superpowers actually put to use when it is completely hidden and/or automated so any random end-user using it for a specific purpose doesn't have to actually know nor learn how to use it. Otherwise it is really not for normies, never was, never will.
In a way even if it's really far away from an actual Linux OS distro, Android is maybe the greatest Linux success ever, and people who use it were always just as familiar with Windows in case you didn't notice.
Why are they fine with it? because Windows and Android are both OSes designed with accessibility for normie end-users in mind, with their reality and (non-)skilled needs.
Linux isn't. Not at all, all the distro efforts attempting more friendliness to normies have been failures.

Really, Linux as a desktop OS, for anyone but the small demographics of nerds who are mad enough to prefer a mountain of precise input commands lines in place of three mouse clicks, and don't miss all the cool software and hardware everyone even our kids and grandmas use, for anyone but them crazy nerds, Linux is useless ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.
And it being free doesn't change anything at all, Windows and Android completely own Linux when it comes to free software anyway, and you can have them for peanuts these days.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 12:33:23 pm by schmerzkaufen »