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Author Topic: How to adjust horizontal position past trimpot area on arcade monitor?  (Read 2399 times)

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crisizzone

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I have a Nanao MS8 which is mostly working great for me, but I'm having an issue getting the horizontal position right.

I have trimpots for most things on the chassis board, but the horizontal position trimpot doesn't adjust the horizontal position enough. Fully turned I've still got an inch of black on the left side of the screen.

Now I'm pretty sure whatever happened, happened during the time we removed this monitor from it's old cab and transported it, because the seller had a photo from the day before of a good centred screen. I figure I've bumped or pushed something I shouldn't have?

Can anyone help in what I need to do?

crisizzone

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So I've messed around for a bit with a Sega Genesis, and managed to hook that up with a makeshift SCART connector. So I've got an RGB (composite sync) signal going to the monitor, and I saw that the horizontal position was still bad. Slightly less bad, but still bad and too far to the right. (pictures 5,6,7)

With the Genesis plugged in, I tried to set the horizontal position and size as best as I could with the horizontal phase, hold, and position trimpots. They're getting near their extreme ends though so there's little further I could turn if I wanted to.

I managed to get a pretty good result with the Genesis (pictures 8,9,10). I left it there, and went back to the MAME PC and the VGA connector (RGBHV).

So when I booted up the PC (windows 7), same problem, the CRT display is too far horizontally to the right. But it's better and improved now, but still, it's off, and not centred like the genesis was.

I am using CRTemudriver, an R7 240 card, and the 15khz arcade monitor preset in Video Mode Maker. I have GroovyMAME, but the problem persists to the games as well.


I am kind of lost?? :banghead: :banghead:

I am thinking perhaps this has something to do with me not getting a setting right with Video Mode Maker? Since it was centred on the Genesis? But then again, it wasn't like this before I moved it, so I'm thinking perhaps it's also something physical?

Anyone with any thoughts/ideas?  ??? ???

grantspain

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does the h phase pot not work?

buttersoft

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Keep in mind that the MS8 monitor has a known quirk.
Quote
The MS8 has a very tight frequency band in 15K mode , absolute min of 15.450khz and Max of 16.050Khz , optimal is 15.750Khz , it also has a tight vertical range between 54Hz and 60Hz.When ever they are operated outside of this range there is push and pull amplifier ( part of the little Hybrid Sync Module )that attempts to clamp the frequencies within the safe range , so if it is being run and absolute min or max listed above the amplifier / clamping section is working at maximum , if you exceed these limits these chassis most of the time are able to cope when the chassis is in perfect working condition...There is no gradual or accumulative damage , they just work as normal and suddenly fail
That's from Jomac - may his loins be fruitful, may we walk in his light forever - and may be taken ex cathedra. I cannot overstate how important it is that you obey the above stricture with an MS8. https://www.aussiearcade.com/forum/aussie-arcade-sponsor-s-trading-forum/arcade-pinball-and-amusement-machine-sponsors/jomac/70010-hold-issue-on-ms8-26se-chassis

This means you cannot use the Arcade15 present in VMM, as the sync range is too large. From what Joey says, failure in this area isn't partial, so hopefully yours is fine and not an edge case. You will either need to use Generic15 or, better yet, make a custom monitor preset, like in the big quote below but also limiting HfreqMin and HfreqMax and VfreqMin-VfreqMax inside the values in the advice above. You may even want to play it safe and use the NTSC preset to hit that spot dead on, though i don't think you need to get quite that drastic. Note that this all means you have to be careful during boot, as even with something like Atom15 flashed to that Radeon card, you can still get weird frequencies as windows loads, and while that only occurs briefly, the monitor will not survive long term if you do this.

None of this is likely to affect your issue with horizontal position, so far. I wrote out an entire post on adjusting modelines in crt_emudriver below, before realising the above, but i'll leave it in anyway. You should still be able to use it fine, as long as you stick to the safety tips for this monitor described above.

Quote
If you're using crt_emudriver and VMM on windows, you should be able to fix this in software. Firstly, read the original post (OP) in the monitor presets thread - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,116023.0.html - noting that you don't have to understand anything just yet, but make sure you can reference it.

Assuming for the moment you have set up crt_emudriver correctly, that you've checked the box to emulate an EDID (but have not included all modelines in that EDID as a separate option), you have a single 480i mode in the EDID. Modes in the EDID are protected. This means you can easily adjust all other resolutions except that one mode, and we'll come to how to adjust that one later.

To save doing everything over, please read this whole post first, then start making adjustments, and not the other way around.

On your arcade machine, start with any physical game hardware you have, like your Genesis, and set the monitor adjustments for that/those as best you can. Some systems like the Wii have screen adjustments in the menus, but the Megadrive/Genesis won't.

Now plug the PC back in, fire up the machine, open your crt_emudriver folder, and launch ArcadeOSD. Go to the modeline you want to adjust, anything but the desktop 480i mode. For horizontal adjustments, the three values of H-front-porch, H-sync-pulse, and H-back-porch are used to adjust the right side, centering, and left-side of the image, respectively. Or anyway that's close enough for now. Play with all three until you get the picture sized/positioned the way you want. In ArcadeOSD when you hit the limits of horizontal adjustments using the porches, funny things start to happen, and then you lose sync entirely and have to hit esc to go back.

You now have two options - you can adjust all other modes and live with the EDID as above, or you can adjust everything including the EDID using VMM, and come back to make adjustments of the first sort later.

Adjusting the modeline in ArcadeOSD sets it for Windows, but GroovyMAME grabs any mode and recalculates it based on the crt_range lines in mame.ini. So you need to transfer any changes into that file, or, if different systems are doing different things, to use a game.ini file like sonic.ini, or better a genesis.ini file. I'm not sure precisely where those will live for MAME's MESS emulators. For MAME they go into the ini folder under the main directory.

To adjust a mode in the EDID like 480i, and all other modes along with it, you need to set up your modelines again with VMM and an adjusted monitor preset.

Quote
crt_range0  15625-15750, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

That's the Generic15 preset from the monitor preset file. Horizontal timings are in bold, vertical are underlined. The sync range is italicised. 15625 = 15.625kHz. Vertical frequency is set to 49.50-65.00 in this example.

To customise a monitor preset this way, you write down the horizontal timings from your already-adjusted modelines in ArcadeOSD (pref modelines that are closest to 480i and not 240p) and using VMM, go into the edit presets option. It opens the monitor.ini file, and you copy the range line you want and paste it just below where it already is and call it something different (like MyMonitor15) and add your own horizontal timings in the relevant spots. Then you set VMM to use that new monitor preset you created, and generate and install your modelines again using the same steps as you did originally.

After this you may find you want to open ArcadeOSD and make some small adjustments, and transfer those changes to MAME.ini or any sub game or system.ini files. And this whole process above may need to be repeated a few times to get things perfect. Once you've done it, be sensible and use VMM to save the modelist you create (the list of modelines on the system) and save any other files you customised line monitor.ini or modes.ini.

Lastly, if you're on Windows 10 you need to tick the "hide modes this monitor cannot display" box in windows display properties, and to stop and disable the windows service called AMD External Events Utility. You can just type "services" into the start menu to get to the services options. Then search for and open “Power options” in the Start Menu. Click “Choose what the power buttons do” on the left side of the window. Click “Change settings that are currently unavailable.” Under “Shutdown settings” make sure “Turn on fast startup” is disabled/unchecked. The former steps stop programs grabbing higher res video modes they once used despite the fact those modes are not meant to exist now, and the latter stops your computer from ever starting up with a letterbox crush, where the whole vertical resolution is compressed into half it's size in the middle of your screen.

TBH once you've done all this, go and get something like Macrium Reflect free edition and image the entire drive onto some backup storage. Then you can just restore it if needed, or even go into the image and cherrypick config files.

As a side note, vertical adjustments cannot generally be made in software, and will require manual or service menu changes. What you can do is get tricky with GM - so use a mode like 256p for a 224p game, and do not stretch it, which will leave more blank lines at the top and bottom than using 240p would. Takes a bit of juggling with configs. And i'm not sure the reverse is possible - as in, only showing 224 lines of a 256p game - so someone else will need to weigh in.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 11:10:14 pm by buttersoft »

Zebidee

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Good post buttersoft, bit long but very thorough. Wish I could click "like" on it  :cheers:

Now let's hope it helps OP
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crisizzone

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Thank you buttersoft that is incredibly helpful  :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

Following yours and jomac's instructions I know I want to keep the Horizontal frequency between 15.450khz and Max of 16.050Khz , (optimal is 15.750Khz) and the Vertical frequency between 54Hz and 60Hz. I'm taking away that so long as I keep within this range things should be OK with the Nanao monitor. I'll only be using MAME arcade and not any system emulation so I should be relatively safe.

I'll be keeping the monitor off until windows is booted every time now.

I setup a 'custom monitor preset' in Video Mode Maker and called it Nanao MS8. I just copy pasted the generic_15, and altered the Hfreq and Vfreq as Jomac advised.

Going into Arcade OSD I was able to get a pretty much perfect picture by adjusting the horizontal sync pulse. So very happy there.

Then still in Arcade OSD, I selected 'copy modeline to clipboard' and pasted it into notepad, this is where I got a little confused...  :dunno

I assume I just ignore the 'modeline' line of text, then the second line crt_range is what I'm supposed to copy into the mame.ini file specifically this section:

Code: [Select]
# CORE SWITCHRES OPTIONS
#
-modeline                Generate modelines for arcade monitors
-monitor                 Monitor type, e.g.: generic_15, arcade_15, lcd, custom, etc.
-orientation             Monitor orientation (horizontal|vertical|rotate)
-connector               [Linux] video card output (VGA-0|VGA-1|DVI-0|DVI-1)
-interlace               Enable interlaced scanning when necessary
-doublescan              Enable double scanning when necessary (unsupported under Windows)
-cleanstretch            Force integer scaling, 0 means automatic selection
-changeres               Enable dynamic in-game video mode switching
-powerstrip              Use Powerstrip API for dynamic setting of custom video timings
-lock_system_modes       Lock system (non-custom) video modes, only use modes created by us
-lock_unsupported_modes  Lock video modes reported as unsupported by your monitor's EDID
-refresh_dont_care       Ignore video mode's refresh reported by OS when checking ranges
-dotclock_min            Lowest pixel clock supported by video card, in MHz, default is 0
-sync_refresh_tolerance  Maximum refresh difference, in Hz, allowed in order to synchronize
-frame_delay             Delays the start of each frame to minimize input lag (0-9)
-lcd_range               Add custom LCD range, VfreqMin-VfreqMax, in Hz, e.g.: 55.50-61.00
-crt_range0              Add custom CRT range, see documentation for details.
-crt_range1              Add custom CRT range
-crt_range2              Add custom CRT range
-crt_range3              Add custom CRT range
-crt_range4              Add custom CRT range
-crt_range5              Add custom CRT range
-crt_range6              Add custom CRT range
-crt_range7              Add custom CRT range
-crt_range8              Add custom CRT range
-crt_range9              Add custom CRT range
    So here's where my few issues come up:

    • The horizontal porch and pulse times match in the clipboard copy what's on the screen in ArcadeOSD, but the vertical porch and pulse times do not. They are completely different. I don't really understand why?
    • The clipboard has also changed my vertical frequency range from "54.50-59.97" to a straight "50.00-60.00"? Again, I don't understand why, and since this is out of Jomac's frequency recommendations I'm guessing I ignore this and reset it to my original range?
    • I'm not particularly well understanding what the multiple crt_range0, crt_range1, crt_range2, etc.? Do I need to enter more than one crt_range setting? Or do I just edit crt_range0 and leave the others as 'auto'?


« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 09:10:20 am by crisizzone »

Zebidee

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A couple of things:

1) You will need to use VMM to generate/install modes at least twice. After adjusting one mode (not the main EDID 480i mode) in ArcadeOS to suit your monitor, you write down (with a pen or pencil) those 3 horizontal values (buttersoft has them in bold above), use them to edit/update your preset crt_range0 in VMM's monitor.ini file, and run VMM again to generate/install modes. You can repeat this step as many times as you like until your are happy with all the modes.

ArcadeOS tweaks your modes one-by-one (but can't tweak EDID). VMM resets all of them according to your presets.

2) While you are in the VMM options, go to the last tab, browse to your mame.exe (or whatever yours is called, eg "c:\mame\groovymame64.exe") and click on the box to "Export settings to mame". Then click OK. You will see a message in VMM's window about exporting your settings. This means VMM just automatically updated mame.ini for you with the correct crt_range values (there is no need to generate/install modes again to update mame.ini).

If you continue to have issues with your mame.ini then I suggest that you DELETE the file and generate a new config file by running "mame.exe -cc" from command line. Then open VMM options again and click OK to update mame.ini

3) You may want to consider using ATOM-15 to flash the BIOS of your video card, so that it will output 640x480i at 15khz during boot.
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=64

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 07:33:11 pm by Zebidee »
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buttersoft

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Jomac is the man, but I'm not. TBH i have no idea if using the chassis on the limits stresses it more than hitting right on the sweet spot, or if changing frequencies inside the range affects it - in the thread i linked Jomac does talk about the fact that these chassis were designed for a fixed frequency, but he also uses the term "safe range". Either way it is important to note that VMM and ArcadeOSD in actual use will let modelines slip just past the limits, so if you did want to use the full "safe range" you'd be best setting the range line slightly inside that - say 15.55 to 15.9 - but also checking each the scanrate of modeline before and after adjustment to make sure it's not going outside the range. You can see the scanrate in the list in ArcadeOSD before switching modes.

You can export all your modelines from VMM, and keep any files you've altered like monitor.ini, but you do not export a range line from VMM as such. (Oh wait, that's what updating the mame.exe does? I'd forgotten that, so credit to Zeb there :) That will make cutting and pasting irrelevant, but it might not hurt to double check it's all been ported over correctly)

If you're going to create a custom range preset and use it in VMM, just grab that and dump it into mame.ini as crt_range0.

If the modelines need further adjusting, do that in AracdeOSD and go again, or if you're happy, grab the timings from the 320x240@60p mode from ArcadeOSD, and dump those into mame.ini (GrrovyMAME mostly uses 240p modes or close to, or anyway this is a good starting point). ArcadeOSD is outdated, so i'm not sure if simply copying the modeline directly from there will work, it might be in a different format. It should look like one of the range lines from the monitor.ini file, in this case the specific one you created.

Vertical is trickier. You cannot adjust things the same way as horizontally. But again, it would be easiest to simply copy your custom preset into the mame.ini file.

Multiple range lines are for multiple frequency bands. There are unusual use cases for specific games, but mostly these are used to cover dual- or tri-sync monitors -  like some of the Nanao MS9 versions, or WG ones. A dual-sync chassis can run at both 15khZ or 31kHz, but not anything in between. So you have two range lines, one for each band.

I think the MS8's were dual-sync, but i have zero hands-on experience, so you'll have to look into that for yourself. I believe it's only the 15kHz band that has the funny range limits, and the 31kHz band is normal, but again i'll stress that i don't actually know anything. The thread i linked to before might say something about that.

If you were using only the 15kHz range of this monitor, as the lowest and only range, you would only need to enter the crt_range0, and leave the others blank. If you wished to add The 31kHz band it would go into the next available slot - crt_range1.

Take a look at some of the dual-sync or tri-sync monitor ranges in the monitor.ini file for examples.


Quote
3) You may want to consider using ATOM-15 to flash the BIOS of your video card, so that it will output 640x480i at 15khz during boot.

And sorry Zeb, but you will NOT be able to trust Atom15 (with 15kHz-only settings) with this monitor to boot windows. The video card's BIOS will be ok, but Windows still does funny things as it loads and may go outside the 15kHz range limits. If it does, this chassis will not survive that in the long term. Using it for 31kHz might work, subject to concerns further above because i have no idea about 31kHz on this chassis.

The monitor must be left off until windows has fully loaded - unless it really is multisync, and you can lock it to 640x480, but even then as it transitions you just don't know what it's going to do. You could put the computer on a scope, but who knows what it's going to do day to day? I wouldn't trust Windows further than i could throw it, in that regard.

Keep in mind all this advice is solely to protect the MS8. I've never confirmed any other monitor is limited the same way, though there are rumours about pre-1980 TV's
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 06:44:56 am by buttersoft »

Zebidee

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Hey buttersoft, you're more an expert on crt_emudriver so happy to defer to you on the details.

Letting VMM update mame.ini is just easier, one less thing to worry about.

Quote
Quote
    3) You may want to consider using ATOM-15 to flash the BIOS of your video card, so that it will output 640x480i at 15khz during boot.

And sorry Zeb, but you will NOT be able to trust Atom15 (with 15kHz-only settings) with this monitor to boot windows. The video card's BIOS will be ok, but Windows still does funny things as it loads and may go outside the 15kHz range limits.

Yeah you are right, I just didn't want to go into too much detail in this thead as it is a side-topic, and I'm not really the expert,  but here we are. What I understand is that windows 7+ tries to do the logo/loading screen in 1024x768 - and if you have a multiboot arrangement, I *think* it uses 1024x768 for the boot menu screen. You don't need to use the boot menu, but I understand that the loading screen issue is unavoidable. You can set the /noguiboot option in the BCD (Win7+ boot options), but apparently that just gives you a blank screen in 1024x768 for an even longer period. I've heard tales of monitors squealing during this time (awww poor monitors  :-[).

On the other hand, if using windows XP, you can boot and use your own custom loading screen in 640x480i the whole way. Yay XP.

Weirdly, using Atom-15, I don't see the boot menu on my Sony Profeel, but I can see the boot menu (and the progress bar for the Win7 loading animation) on my Panasonic 28" from the late-80's. I have no idea how it is able to do this  :dunno

So yeah probably best to keep the Nanao off while booting, considering it's issues. Even so, ATOM-15 lets you access BIOS from a 15khz monitor so that is a win and it is still worth considering. 
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buttersoft

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Even so, ATOM-15 lets you access BIOS from a 15khz monitor so that is a win and it is still worth considering.

Ahhh, i hadn't thought of that. Yes, it will work fine for the BIOS screens. But not to load windows - if you read that thread above Jomac does rag on XP too, as jumping aroundf a bit during loading, and probably killing MS8's when doing so.

Zebidee

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Challenge accepted, I've read through the MS8/Jomac thread 3-4 times now.  :notworthy:

Couldn't find his rag on XP (maybe it is in another thread?). Anyway, not important. Two key messages from Joey:

"I have measure on a CRO [cathode ray oscilloscope] watching all sorts of Mame setups that are supposed to be blocking everything outside of 15K but at startup before there is even anything displayed I have seen anywhere from 13K to 17K before they settle to somewhere in the 15K range."

"the only way you can safely use an MS8 Nanao is to delay powering the monitor until the MAME has fully loaded , it's all the odd frequency changes that happen during bootup that damages these chassis"

So wow yeah, I'd interpret Joey's comments to include JPAC and ATOM setups, don't assume your MS8 is safe with these. There is a handy power switch on the back of the Astro cabs you often see the monitors in (sixth from left in my signature pic below).

« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 11:16:09 pm by Zebidee »
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Jomac

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Challenge accepted, I've read through the MS8/Jomac thread 3-4 times now.  :notworthy:

Couldn't find his rag on XP (maybe it is in another thread?). Anyway, not important. Two key messages from Joey:

"I have measure on a CRO [cathode ray oscilloscope] watching all sorts of Mame setups that are supposed to be blocking everything outside of 15K but at startup before there is even anything displayed I have seen anywhere from 13K to 17K before they settle to somewhere in the 15K range."

"the only way you can safely use an MS8 Nanao is to delay powering the monitor until the MAME has fully loaded , it's all the odd frequency changes that happen during bootup that damages these chassis"

So wow yeah, I'd interpret Joey's comments to include JPAC and ATOM setups, don't assume your MS8 is safe with these. There is a handy power switch on the back of the Astro cabs you often see the monitors in (sixth from left in my signature pic below).



Just an add in guys,  @Zebidee , this advice is the most important, something I did miss mentioning is that I have never come across a case where Vert Freq alone has caused the module to fail, I have tested between 55 & 65hz without an issue while the H-Freq is operating within the safe range.
What I have found is the more the V-Freq is outside 60hz the less tolerant the range is for the H-Freq before the module fails.
So it's safe and recommended to lock the V-Freq at 60hz as long as you can keep the H-Freq within the mentioned range ( 15.450khz and Max of 16.050Khz , optimal is 15.750Khz ) , in some cases this can only be achieved by delaying power to the monitor.
Keep in mind while it's pretty inconvenient when the module blows and needs to be repaired it's not a huge job, it only really becomes an issue when people start messing with the H-Hold trying to get the chassis to sync when it can't anymore this usually blows the HOT and power supply section.
It's never going to be the end of your chassis just a short downtime so don't let the fear of this happening stop you enjoying one of the best monitors ever made.

buttersoft

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Thanks, Joey! I'll admit I had the impression you couldn't repair the MS8 once the sync blew, so that's good to know. IT's also the case that monitor techs are getting hard to find, of course :)

Zebidee

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So it's safe and recommended to lock the V-Freq at 60hz as long as you can keep the H-Freq within the mentioned range ( 15.450khz and Max of 16.050Khz , optimal is 15.750Khz ) , in some cases this can only be achieved by delaying power to the monitor.

Thanks Joey! That quote above can be directly translated to a monitor preset (crt_range for CRT-emudriver/VMM) too.  :cheers:
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