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Author Topic: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices  (Read 4190 times)

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Fluor

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CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« on: May 13, 2020, 06:33:52 pm »
Hey all, how are you guys doing?

I've been having a hard time finding answers and more noob-friendly tutorials. My goal is to run Groovy mame and other emulators (Specially newest builds of Dolphin, since I play a lot of smash online) on a CRT TV (15khz) 240p or 480i, with Component cables. With that in mind:

1- I have a RX570 that is supposed to be able to work, although there's the dotclock thing + you need to use super resolutions. I would like to use it but I haven't found a single person that went this way to potentially see the end result and have some guidance. Any tips?

2- I've also started looking online for AMD cards that could work easily, but I am afraid of using a card that won't run Dolphin. Can I pretty much pick any older AMD card but have the emulator running off of the main card while outputting the image to the secondary card?

3- The 300 series are the last one with analog out, correct? So the most powerful cards I could get would be the R9 300's?

4- I also haven't seen many people going for component solutions. I've found some simple DVI-I to RCA Component cables on Amazon, assuming everything prior was working, would a simple cable like that work?

5- For audio in that case, I think I could just use a 3.5mm jack to stereo AV cables to the TV, correct?

Also, if anyone knows a discord where people discuss these PC to CRT TV topics, I'd greatly appreciate an invite.

Thank you for reading!

keilmillerjr

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2020, 05:28:41 am »
I have an amd r9 380 arriving in the mail today. I believe it is the last and card to support analog video. It was released June 2015. It may meet dolphins requirements as it supports d3d and is less than 6 years old.

I haven't tried getting composite out of a PC and would be interested in this as well. I tried the raspberry pi for it's compsite out, but frustration with joystick/Bluetooth drivers made me sell it at that instant and buy a normal console that just works.

Recapnation

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2020, 06:25:52 am »
Which are "Dolphin requirements" in this case, though? If he's using it either, on a 15-kHz set-up or, better yet, a 31-kHz one, he will just use a resolution of 480 lines which is native to the GCN/WII, therefore the graphic card shouldn't be that relevant.

Fluor

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2020, 08:00:27 am »
On the Smash Netplay website they have this as guidance for PC Specs needed:

  • Recommended Specifications (4 player, 720p/60 FPS):

    Processor: Intel Core i5-2500K or AMD Phenom X4 955
    Memory: 4 GB DDR3
    Graphics Card: nVidia GeForce GTX 560 or AMD Radeon HD 7850
    Operating System: Windows 7 64-bit or OS X 10.9 "Mavericks" 64-bi

I was thinking about getting an R7 or R9 possibly. Will have to check prices. But I want to get component out, not composite, do you guys think it is possible?
I found this adapter on amazon and thought about how it would be super simple to use it, but not sure if it would work easily.


As mentioned on my original post, I want to use the setup on a consumer CRT TV that is 15khz at 240p or 480i.

Keilmillerjr how much was the R9 380 that you got?

Anyone has any other tip or tutorials to link of having the emudriver working on 15khz crt with component?

Recapnation

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2020, 01:08:44 pm »
Recommended Specifications (4 player, 720p/60 FPS)

You're not displaying 720-P on a 15-kHz monitor, but 480, so the demands for the card should be much lower if you make the emulator render the picture at that resolution without unnecessary effects. Ask in Dolphin-related forums -- I'm sure you're not the first doing this.


For using a YPP TV with a CRT Emudriver set-up you need to transcode the RGB signal. I haven't done it myself but until you get a proper answer (i. e., what's the better transcoder these days), have a look here since I remember the topic being discussed not long ago.

psakhis

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2020, 03:21:51 pm »
I'm using a AMD 7750  with Dolphin and runs perfect at native resolutions.

Fluor

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2020, 03:43:01 pm »
Thanks for the tip psakhis. I'm gonna use de 7750 as a mark and try to get the cheapest I can that is at or ahead ot its level.

keilmillerjr

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2020, 09:48:17 pm »
I spent $76 shipped (used). Video card works. It now runs shaders in attract on lcd perfectly. Should be a good CRT/lcd dev canidate. However, the fans in it are making a scraping sound.

psakhis

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2020, 09:13:13 am »
It's just for that i bought a silent gpu...and no there was found any better than 7750.

You can install afterburner program and adjust fans  :dunno

Zebidee

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2020, 03:55:16 pm »
GPU Fans wear out, but are cheap and replaceable.

I can confirm from experience that Emudriver will give you good/normal picture on component TV, but you need to transcode the signal from RGBs to component first.

I have no idea about that Amazon cable, but you can get RGB-component transcoders for about US$50 nowadays (used to be more like $80 a couple of years ago, so good news). Don't buy cheap ones, probably nasty. Best I could currently recommend is linuxbot's (search for it/him on ebay). Looks like you would need a DVI-I to VGA adapter too (these should be pretty cheap). Only thing is he lives in New Zealand, so prepare for some delivery time if you go that way.
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Fluor

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2020, 10:41:59 am »
GPU Fans wear out, but are cheap and replaceable.

I can confirm from experience that Emudriver will give you good/normal picture on component TV, but you need to transcode the signal from RGBs to component first.

I have no idea about that Amazon cable, but you can get RGB-component transcoders for about US$50 nowadays (used to be more like $80 a couple of years ago, so good news). Don't buy cheap ones, probably nasty. Best I could currently recommend is linuxbot's (search for it/him on ebay). Looks like you would need a DVI-I to VGA adapter too (these should be pretty cheap). Only thing is he lives in New Zealand, so prepare for some delivery time if you go that way.

Wait, how do I transcode from RGBS to Component? Was I stupid to jump the gun and get the DVI/I to Component cable? Is the transcoding something that can be done on the emulator, windows, anywhere not hardware related?

Damn if I have to spend more money and time to see this happening I'm gonna be sad  :cry:

Recapnation

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2020, 11:20:33 am »
You don't transcode RGB into "component", but into "YPP" (RGB is a "component" signal too), which is what your TV will read through the RCA inputs. But yeah, a transcoder (hardware) is your one and only way for 15-kHz progressive.

Fluor

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2020, 01:15:45 pm »
God this is annoying. So, now I will have a DVI/I to Component cable that will emite RGB signal. Is there any component  to component transcoder that will do RGBS to YPbPr?

I'm googling "Component RGBS to Component YPbPr transcoder" or other variants of this but nothing is coming up. Only Scart solution.

Can't believe I threw away 20 bucks for a dvi to component cable for nothing ='(

Is there a DVI/I RGBS transcoder to YPbPr Component?

Well, RIP in Pepperonis guys. After some search, it doesn't look like any component RGBS to component YPbPr transcoder exist. The video card I got only has DVI/I analog, no VGA. What would be the best option to eventually get a YPbPr signal from the original DVI/I output?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 02:07:06 pm by Fluor »

Recapnation

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2020, 04:01:34 pm »
Forget outputting YPP from the graphics card -- that won't get you 15-kHz progressive.

Step 1. Look for a good RGBHV-YPP transcoder (in this thread there's some recommendation already)
2. Learn which connection types it uses. Normally you'll find BNC or RCA.
3. Look for a good RGB DVI-BNC/RCA cable(*). Adapting BNC into RCA and viceversa is trivial, anyhow.
4. Look for a good YPP BNC/RCA-RCA cable.

Done.

(*)As you'll hardly find that, get yourself a good RGBHV D-sub-BNC/RCA cable and a DVI-D-sub adapter. Maybe a SCART-BNC/RCA one too. It all depends on what your device ask for and what cables are available at this moment. Connection types should never discourage you.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 04:29:06 pm by Recapnation »

Zebidee

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2020, 11:23:11 pm »
You don't transcode RGB into "component", but into "YPP" (RGB is a "component" signal too), which is what your TV will read through the RCA inputs. But yeah, a transcoder (hardware) is your one and only way for 15-kHz progressive.

Yeah - I was just using simple language. Now some purist will come and say in fact we are all wrong because it's really Y'Pr'Pb' or whatever. Even when hacking the TV to component, in some places the documentation calls it Y,Cr,Pb and in some places just YUV, another place something else. I know the differences are important, but trying not to get hung-up about it as people (including techs!) throw these terms around casually and interchangeably.

I just hopped onto ebay to see what was there. Didn't see anything from there from linuxbot. This SCART-YUV transcoder is the best value-for-money unit I could see at this time:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCART-RGB-to-YUV-YPbPr-Component-Video-Converter-Adapter-for-vintage-video-game/273178172012?hash=item3f9ab01a6c:g:GiAAAOSwJTta4HNl

I actually have this one. Although I haven't tested it yet, I have pulled it apart and it definitely should do the job. Only tricky bit is that you'd have to somehow do the VGA-SCART yourself, or buy another cable. I make these myself, but there are places online that sell them. I have no idea if they are any good or not, I always make my own. If you make your own, all you'll need to do is connect up the R-G-B, sync and ground. Nothing fancy required for this.

Attached some pics for you to enjoy:

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Recapnation

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2020, 07:37:16 am »
Quote
I was just using simple language. Now some purist will come and say in fact we are all wrong because it's really Y'Pr'Pb' or whatever. Even when hacking the TV to component, in some places the documentation calls it Y,Cr,Pb and in some places just YUV, another place something else. I know the differences are important, but trying not to get hung-up about it as people (including techs!) throw these terms around casually and interchangeably.

I like the abbreviation "YPP" because we can't really use subscripts in forums and ordinary typing and more importantly, because you can pronounce it with some fluidity. "Y prime - P sub-B - P sub-R" is simply too long and awkward, but I'm fine with anyone using it, I guess. YUV and Y' Cb Cr are not exactly the same, though.

I was not being pedantic just because. Precisely because there's this soup of terminology it's about time a proper term prevails and "component" (which is even used for the connection type quite often!) just can't be it anymore, we all know it especially in a forum like this.



Fluor

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2020, 08:18:01 am »
Hey guys, sorry about the mental breakdown I was having yesterday. It is sad that this entire solution is much more expensive than I was thinking.

I found this: https://www.retrotekshop.com/products?pn=VGACTV2
Which should do the job, assuming I can get a DVI to VGA adapter, which should be easy.
The problem is, 90usd for a person in Canada is... quite expensive with current exchange rates.

The solution proposed by Zebidee could work, but then I need to find exactly how to wire the VGA cable to SCART. How much would just the SCART head cost?
It's getting to the point of being so close to the VGA to YPbPr that I linked above from Retrotek that I might just have to go with that but, man, 90USD is so much.

I'm getting curious to the point of potentially wanting to design my own PCB to just transcode component RGBS to component YPbPr so I can use the DVI cable I ended up purchasing. With that in mind, how does a transcoder work? I don't know exactly which terms to search on google to learn more about transcoding.

Thank you all for the support so far.

Fluor

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2020, 08:35:47 am »
You don't transcode RGB into "component", but into "YPP" (RGB is a "component" signal too), which is what your TV will read through the RCA inputs. But yeah, a transcoder (hardware) is your one and only way for 15-kHz progressive.

Yeah - I was just using simple language. Now some purist will come and say in fact we are all wrong because it's really Y'Pr'Pb' or whatever. Even when hacking the TV to component, in some places the documentation calls it Y,Cr,Pb and in some places just YUV, another place something else. I know the differences are important, but trying not to get hung-up about it as people (including techs!) throw these terms around casually and interchangeably.

I just hopped onto ebay to see what was there. Didn't see anything from there from linuxbot. This SCART-YUV transcoder is the best value-for-money unit I could see at this time:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCART-RGB-to-YUV-YPbPr-Component-Video-Converter-Adapter-for-vintage-video-game/273178172012?hash=item3f9ab01a6c:g:GiAAAOSwJTta4HNl

I actually have this one. Although I haven't tested it yet, I have pulled it apart and it definitely should do the job. Only tricky bit is that you'd have to somehow do the VGA-SCART yourself, or buy another cable. I make these myself, but there are places online that sell them. I have no idea if they are any good or not, I always make my own. If you make your own, all you'll need to do is connect up the R-G-B, sync and ground. Nothing fancy required for this.

Attached some pics for you to enjoy:

Could you point me to wiring diagrams  and where exactly could I buy the SCART head to rewire? I believe this solution would be the cheapest overall since I have some VGA to VGA cables lying around that could be repurposed.

TY so much!

Recapnation

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2020, 10:34:47 am »

Zebidee

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2020, 04:30:11 pm »
Flour, your VGA-SCART cable need not be anywhere near as complicated as the ones on those threads. No disrespect to those good people, it is just that all you need is a simple pass-through cable. No resistors, transistors or PCBs necessary. You can even do it without soldering. Will look much neater too.

Sorry but one of my long-winded, but detailed and useful posts follows.

Your local hobby electronics store should have SCART heads, but you can get them online too. Wherever you go, try to get the ones with "blade" or "spade" type connectors. "Spade" is the type pictured below, in the finished cable I opened up. A SCART with buckets connectors is in the pic with the golden female crimps (sounds exciting doesn't it? Just you wait...!)

If you have preferred spade connectors then you can use 2.8mm female crimps on the ends of your signal wires. Break off the outer part with a pair of pliers as pictured (and file down any sharp bits that result), otherwise they won't fit in. Once done with crimping, pop a bit of heat-shrink insulation around it (as it gets cramped in there), and use a pair of pliers to slide them onto your SCART header's spade connectors. If it doesn't fit snugly, just adjust the crimp end a bit with your pliers. This makes things a whole lot easier and more secure than soldering thin wires into bucket connectors. In the pics, you'll see that I've bent them back about 35-45 degrees so that they fit inside the case.

I like to put a small blob of solder inside the female crimp to secure the wire connection better, but this is entirely optional.

You can also use spade connectors with the bucket types - still works, just doesn't fit on as neatly (see pic). Just use heat-shrink to insulate properly, maybe you could use a smaller size female crimp, if available.

Make sure that you put the SCART locking screw-cap thing onto your cable FIRST. Even though you can remove crimps, it is always a regrettable PITA if you forget. You might also use this opportunity to put on a ferrous bead to minimise interference (shown below with the dead-headed VGA cable).

For the VGA end, if you are tired of cutting up perfectly good VGA cables then consider getting one (or some) of these VGA headers with screw-terminals, just like you'll find on an IPAC/JPAC or similar device. The one pictured below is hooked up to a standard arcade monitor RGBs connector, but obviously you can connect it to SCART or whatever you want.

Note that you effectively have composite sync already if both H+V are negative (or same polarity, and  note that ATI/AMD cards output -'ve on both H+V by default) and just twist the wires together. No need for sync conversion here. Probably wise to advise that you could pop a resistor onto this (470 - 1000 ohms seem popular) before hooking it up to the SCART if you are feeling extra paranoid (I don't think you even need it, I haven't done it for the cable shown, but be aware that the voltage level from VGA is a bit higher than standard for TVs, so do at own risk and I don't want you blaming me if your stuff melts). The SCART-YUV transcoder will automatically adjust, clean & process your sync to composite before feeding it into the circuit anyway. So all you'll need to do is twist H+V together and connect them to pin 20.

HOWEVER, if you choose to do composite sync out via crt_emudriver, then make sure that you don't connect the VGA vertical sync (pin 14) because it can cause interference on the signal. For my setups I prefer to NOT use composite out of the driver as it seems to make my picture less stable, even without pin 14 connected.

SUMMARY: No soldering if you really want, especially if you use the VGA screw-in headers pictured below, SCART headers with spades and female crimps, and some reasonably thick wire around 22-24 AWG or so. But even then I'd probably tin the wires at least, maybe pop that resistor on the sync if it concerns you. Whatever you choose, using the spade connectors with the female crimps makes it easier to change things around if you want.

There are 100+ ways to roll your own VGA-SCART cable, and almost as many guides out there. I've written some of them, been doing this a long time. I recommend that you make what you need and don't make it more complicated than it has to be for your purposes.

Further info: the VGA-SCART cable pictured below takes 5v from VGA pin 9, and there is a 100ohm 1/4W resistor (that you can't see) inside the heat-shrink on that wire connected to SCART pin 16 to give ~2v for RGB blanking. There is no AV-mode switching on this one. I've used it with many TVs, it works with any except one that insisted on AV switching as voltage well (ie voltage at pin 8, another story). Your cable will be even simpler because you won't need any blanking voltages to signal AV/RGB modes.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 04:36:13 pm by Zebidee »
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Fluor

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2020, 02:52:30 pm »
Zebidee thank you so much for the pictures and guidelines. I might have to go that route if nothing else better exists.
My DVI to RCA Component just arrived:


Is there no way to make the CRT_Emudriver output YPbPr? If that was possible I could just use this cable I got and that would be it.
Can the OSSC do the transcoding/conversion? I know the OSSC is more expensive than the other solutions here but it was something I was already looking to get eventually to help me stream my classic consoles.

Also, is there any way to contact our boy Calamity a bit more directly? Something like a discord server?

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Re: CRT Emudriver on newer cards or other choices
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2020, 09:09:36 pm »
The OSSC is very cool but doesn't work like that - it takes old-school analogue inputs and makes them look OK in digital RGB for HDMI. Looks like a really good option for time-poor gamers with HDTVs and deep pockets. It converts from component to HDMI, not the other way around. It also costs a staggering 110 pounds, for which I could probably buy 4 CRT TVs pretty easily.

Like all of us Calamity has a real life and I imagine he's pretty busy at it, so probably best to contact him through the forum.

You cannot do component out with crt_emudriver

I just tested component with: the VGA-SCART cable (home-made) I showed you above + the SCART-YUV transcoder ($50 from ebay). Works perfectly! Pics below.

If you can't make the cable then PM me. For a modest donation to my hobby account I can make it for you.



Check out my completed projects!