Trackball Help Suzo Happ and buying one from groovygamegear

[Montell]

Hello,

I purchased an arcade cabinet second hand from someone, one of the main reasons I purchased it, was for golden tee among others. The trackball in it was ok, but it was smaller then 3 inch.

So i purchased a suzo happ trackball and had a contractor cut a bit bigger center square hole (the old trackball just had a square cut out and then attached to the mount), and then added the suzo happ mount to attach it.

I then had people over who noticed the swing would lag when you spin really hard. The place i bought it from in canada wont accept returns so I am out that money. Doing research on here I think people call this the backspin issue.

I found searching this website many people recommend a red board in the suzo happ trackball and an optiwiz. My initial plan was to purchase the red board, and then the optiwiz to fix the issue.

After talking to groovgamegear he pointed out it would be just as cheap to purchase a new trackball.

So I am looking at this one on his site and was wondering if it is the same design as a suzo happ? And just making sure before i shell out more money, it will work with my mount.

https://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74&products_id=363

And this is the mount my cutout is designed for.

https://na.suzohapp.com/products/trackballs/55-1101-00

I would just need the optiwiz yet.

I just want to make sure this will work, and if anyone else has any suggestions before i shell out more money. It seems groovygamegear knows what they are doing, so I am hoping this is the final solution.

[Keroppi]

Yes, that is a standard red board HAPP trackball.
But, if you already just bought one, just replace the boards: $18.50 shipped ...no need to buy the whole thing.

You'll need the opti-wiz regardless. And I'd shell out the $10 or so for the higher res encoder wheels from Randy (GGG)

[PL1]

From what he said about now needing an OptiWiz, it sounds like OP currently has a Happ "USB green board" trackball.

I'm not sure if that trackball housing has mount holes in the right places so you can swap the USB green boards for red boards instead of buying a whole new trackball.   

The trackball listings on the Suzo-Happ site probably have the part numbers for the housings of the USB green board and Molex red board trackballs.  If they match, he should be able to swap boards.


Scott

[Keroppi]

The pcbs are the same size. I have all 3 (green, red, and usb green) ...they all swap out just fine.
HAPPs website does have the casing part numbers on the same page of the unit(s). You will see, they match.

OP: another option I thought of...try increasing your USB polling rate...worth a shot, and it's free.

[PL1]

The pcbs are the same size. I have all 3 (green, red, and usb green) ...they all swap out just fine.
HAPPs website does have the casing part numbers on the same page of the unit(s). You will see, they match.

Thanks for the info.   


Scott

[Montell]

Thanks for the replies.

Kerropi i am just curious since you have all 3, did you ever experience this issue, or do you not play golden tee much?

The guy from groovy game gear mentioned its just a terrible encoder on these happs, so I am hoping the optiwiz setup is the fix. I dont want to worry how fast i can or cant spin the trackball.

The place i bought it from claimed nothing will fix it, the usb trackball they sold me is just a product of windows or linux not being a real golden tee machine and i should go buy a real golden tee arcade if i want it not to lag on hard spins.... Which does not sound like its true? I just want this resolved once and for all so I dont waste more money.

Just curious if you experienced what I have and if the red board, optiwiz fixed it for you.

Yes i have the green usb happ trackball currently i forgot to mention.

On the pi i did set the poll rate a few weeks ago when i tested different trackballs following this video.



The pi and the pc i am trying to setup both experience this lag on hard spins of the trackball in golden tee anyway.

[Keroppi]

Thanks for the replies.

Kerropi i am just curious since you have all 3, did you ever experience this issue, or do you not play golden tee much?

The guy from groovy game gear mentioned its just a terrible encoder on these happs, so I am hoping the optiwiz setup is the fix. I dont want to worry how fast i can or cant spin the trackball.

The place i bought it from claimed nothing will fix it, the usb trackball they sold me is just a product of windows or linux not being a real golden tee machine and i should go buy a real golden tee arcade if i want it not to lag on hard spins.... Which does not sound like its true? I just want this resolved once and for all so I dont waste more money.

Just curious if you experienced what I have and if the red board, optiwiz fixed it for you.

Yes i have the green usb happ trackball currently i forgot to mention.

On the pi i did set the poll rate a few weeks ago when i tested different trackballs following this video.



The pi and the pc i am trying to setup both experience this lag on hard spins of the trackball in golden tee anyway.

I do play golden tee. I am betting your issue is the encoders.
To be clear, Randy is correct. The green encoders suck. I don't recall your issue specifically, but I don't use the green boards. I learned many years ago to *always* replace them with red.

However, I might not be the best to get advice from, because:
I have bought randy's encoder wheels (on any machines I have kept).
I always use a proper encoder interface (optiwiz or optipac)
I have always bought new bearings
I learned about 12 years ago how to "break in" my trackball bearings

...I'd start with the red encoder boards, and buy Randy's wheels like I recommended.

[Montell]

Thanks everyone for the help.

Just to clarify my issue is basically when you roll the ball hard it lags, or the golfer will stall for a second then just do a weak shot, sometimes off to the side. I would call it lag, but I  think from reading this is also called the backspin issue?

[PL1]

Lag implies that there is a delay between action (move trackball) and reaction (cursor moves), but not lost/bad data.

Backspin implies that the cursor motion does not match the trackball motion in a variety of ways -- moving backward, standing still, stuttering, or wobbling back-and-forth.

AFAIK backspin is caused by one or both of these two problems.

1.) The optical circuits are not transitioning between logic high and logic low fast enough. (old green boards)

At high speeds, they output a not-so-square waveform with relatively slow rise/fall times that reduce the amount of time the waveform is at logic high or low.

These shorter highs and lows can be difficult for the optical encoder to register.



2.) The optical encoder does not register all of the phase transitions on a rapidly changing quadrature waveform due to the encoder input sampling rate. (USB green boards)
NOTE: This is not the same as the USB polling rate.

If the encoder sampling rate only registers every third transition, it would go backward.
  Transitions - 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
      Samples - 1       4       3       2

If the encoder sampling rate only registers every second transition, it would probably stand still because the encoder can't tell if it is going right or left.
  Transitions - 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
      Samples - 1    3    1    3    1    3

The way to avoid this problem is to use an encoder with a sampling rate that is double the fastest possible phase transition rate.
  Transitions - 1    2    3    4    1    2    3    4
      Samples - 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4




Scott
EDIT: Had to replace the picture showing square wave rounding due to high frequency roll off.   

[Keroppi]

That was the most technical way to say "buy an opti-wiz" I have ever seen.

[Montell]

Placing my order tonight, with the canadian dollar, and shipping to canada, this is one costly endeavor.

Thanks for everyones help.

[PL1]

That was the most technical way to say "buy an opti-wiz" I have ever seen.

Here's the non-technical, more inclusive version.   
- Happ green boards = not-so-good.
- Happ USB green boards = not-so-good.
- Happ red boards = good.
- Opti-Wiz = good.
- I-Pac2, Mini-Pac opti, or Opti-Pac = good.
- Arduino (with good firmware) = good.


Scott

[Montell]

I know this has come up a few times in my searches, I placed my order at groovy game gear Thursday and it still has not shipped as of wednesday...

Since I am in canada, i think this is going to be quite a long wait.

[RandyT]

I know this has come up a few times in my searches, I placed my order at groovy game gear Thursday and it still has not shipped as of wednesday...

Since I am in canada, i think this is going to be quite a long wait.

This was due to a couple of reasons.  We were momentarily out of stock on the Opti-Wiz (due to a large commercial order) and you also ordered a trackball with our custom options, which puts the order into a manufacturing queue.  That stated, your parts were finished late yesterday and are shipping today.  It could take a while to clear customs, but that's up to Canada.

[Montell]

Thanks!

Got the shipping confirmation, yup will probably take awhile to get through customs.

[Montell]

Just got my opti-wiz.

Given all my issues and problems with trackballs was just wondering if anyone can confirm if this wiring is correct? I dont want to fry anything, the instructions are a bit confusing.

Thanks in advance if anyone can confirm.

[PL1]

just wondering if anyone can confirm if this wiring is correct?

Looks good.   
- 5V on 1
- Ground on 2
- Y-axis data lines on 7 and 8
- X-axis data lines on 9 and 10

If one of the axes is inverted (i.e. rolling the ball right moves the cursor left), swap the data lines for that axis.




Scott

[Montell]

Well very odd, good news is it seems to be working now, and it feels really smooth, will have to hammer on it tomorrow once its mounted to see if i can produce backspin. But it feels better then the normal suzo happ even, very smooth rolling. Although extremely sensitive, but I think in a good way.

However and unless im crazy the arrow marked to go to the monitor is either wrong, or is it possible the encoder boards (left and right red boards) were installed wrong?

I have to point the trackball the opposite way from the writing that says to the monitor. Then it works fine.

I have reversed the x and y axis pins every which way and it will simply not work properly unless I point the plastic that has no writing forward. While the plastic that points to monitor does not work properly if its pointed to the monitor. I have a regular suzo happ currently installed with green boards and it does not have that issue. You would think i have something on the optiwiz x and y access wrong but i have tried the 4 combinations and it simply does not work then.

I dont see an issue with this, i will just mount it the opposite way....? Unless i should try the x axis on pins 7 and 8 and y axis on pins 9 and 10?

[bobbyb13]

I found the harnesses to the pcbs on one of my trackballs swapped around (x & y switched) and following the wire color guidelines for my encoder gave me the same issue.

Take Scott's advice and swap wires.  You will get it right eventually.

This is an excellent thread.  Thank you all who have posted.

And thank you Scott for the picture on the oscilliscope and your sampling rate visual- really makes the point of what is going on in a way I didn't previously get.

Bobby

[PL1]

I have reversed the x and y axis pins every which way and it will simply not work properly unless I point the plastic that has no writing forward. While the plastic that points to monitor does not work properly if its pointed to the monitor. I have a regular suzo happ currently installed with green boards and it does not have that issue. You would think i have something on the optiwiz x and y access wrong but i have tried the 4 combinations and it simply does not work then.

When you turn the housing 180 degrees, up becomes down and left becomes right.
- X-axis is still X-axis and Y-axis is still Y-axis, but both axes are reversed.

If the trackball works normally with the arrow pointing away from the monitor and the wires connected as shown in the picture you posted, it should work normally when you turn the housing 180 degrees, swap the data lines for the X-axis, and swap the data lines for the Y-axis.

  Y-axis
7 - Yellow (was green)
8 - Green (was yellow)
  X-axis
9 - Purple (was blue)
10 - Blue (was purple)

thank you Scott for the picture on the oscilliscope and your sampling rate visual- really makes the point of what is going on in a way I didn't previously get.

Glad to assist.   


Scott

[Montell]

Got the trackball in, i had to swap the x and y axis based on the picture I posted, and then had to flip the purple and blue pins again.

So purple on 7, blue on 8, green on 9 yellow on 10.

Probably the last combination i tried, still dont quite understand why i had to flip the purple and blue around, when i was simply turning the trackball so the side that said monitor was putting in the opposite direction, they all faced the same way, but to get the side pointing to the monitor to work, i had to flip the purple and blue wires around.

No backspin, pretty happy with it so far, out of the 3 trackballs i tried this is the best one. Its smoother and less rough sounding then the stock suzo happ, or the old ps2 one i had. Only thing you could maybe say is it does not roll quite as long as the stock suzo happ green board i had, but maybe thats  just because it roles smoother and quieter. The stock suzo happ green board rolled for an extremely long time, but it also sound rough and loud.

The sensitivity also seems on par with the default configuration of most games, such as marble madness and golden tee, on the previous two I always had to crank up the sensitivity.

As far as i can tell the lesson here is go with the red board suzo happ and optiwiz, or get one from groovy game gear where everything is built in and he offers a few other upgrades.

I will update if i encounter any issues.

Thanks.