New Trackball Design for easier installation

[nitrogen_widget]

create one of those paetron stores.
srll it or the plans there.

[negative1]

Hi guys,

I finaly found time to create a demo video:


I will come back shortly to give answer to some of your questions

Note: while I'm writing this post, youtube is still uploading. May take some more minutes, so be patient please.

Good job on the build and the video.

However, you are barely rolling the trackball.

To play any of those games properly, you will be rolling the trackball much harder than anything shown,
you barely touched the ball rolling for those games.

Granted, you need to adjust the sensitivity per game, but that's nowhere near the force needed to play
those games properly.

later
-1

[StefanBurger]

Basically all mouses trackball communicate delta X and delta Y values. The only thong here is that due to high resolution those delta values are just relative high. They just need to get scaled down to a reasonable value, which is totaly possible in software on the receiver side or even in hardware on the sender side.

[Zebra]

What sort of plastic and 3d printer are you using? I'm curious to see how the 3d printed screw threads hold up to the pressure and motion over time. Thin abs is easy to break without much effort. Arcade buttons are injection molded from stronger harder plastics. They are also only subjected to downward pressure.

I don't really know how strong a trackball mount needs to be. I just assumed there was a reason for their heft and relatively large surface area.

It would be useful if you had a local friend with a lathe to make it from aluminum.

[StefanBurger]

Hi guys,

let me try to answer some of your questions.

First of all it's importand to understand, that the whole design is the result of ongoing iterations of design, build, test, redesign/adjust, build test... (while I'm writing those lines I'm currently in the 24th iteration).
All design decisions are carefully taken and well ballenced in regards to the design goals/constrains.

Design goals are

• easy to build
• easy to install
• small form factor (had 3/4 size of Arcade1up-format in mind)
• low cost

This resulted in a hard constrain for the form factor where a lot of decisions are aligned to (especially selection/ type/ size/ placing of ballbearing, decision against classical encoder wheel aproach and for optical mouse sensor)

Regarding lib/bezel:
I went for a bigger lib in the first place, just to found out, that it was totally overdone.
With the current version I'm still able to hold the control panel upside down just at the trackball and it does not only slip out, it doesn't even move within the tollerances betwenn threads and CP-hole.
One of the attached fotos shows the old version with the bigger lib side by side with the current version.

Regarding ball bearings
The ball bearing need to fit inside the big barrel that holds everything together (the one shape with the lib on the top).
And in addition to that, the three ball bearing that define the postion of the ball need to be as far away from the center and as high/ close to the balls widest point as possible to place the center of gravity of the ball as low as possible. Otherwise, if the ball gets pushed hard, it would escape the three ball bearings to "crash" against the housing with immediate high friction which result in a hard stop (bad gameplay experience).
Besides of that, friction during normal operation need to be at a minimum (only the three contact points of the three ball bearings.
To make a long story short: I tried different sizes of ball bearings and it turned out, they need to as small as possible. One of the attached fotos shows a selection of ball bearings with an 1 Cent coin as size reference.

Material/ Rubustness
As allready mentioned previously, the prototype was 3d printed with an FDM printer, used material was PLA.
I used PLA because it's very easy to print and I had never a doubt that it would not be solid enough. And of course it can be printed with any other type of filament like ABS or even Nylon or PC.
Here is a linke to 3dhubs with some overview of materials and there properties:
https://www.3dhubs.com/knowledge-base/fdm-3d-printing-materials-compared/
And by the way: The material most used for injection molding is also ABS. Most likely conventional trackballs (housing) are manufactured with that.
Besides of that, rubustness is also a question of the parts geometrie (thickness for example) and printing specifications (like infill, print orientation etc).
In the case of this trackball, several "layers" of housing elements are screwed into each other which adds up to signigicant strength.

Coloring
...ist just a question of selected material and can be any.

Usage of optical mouse sensor/ speed of motion
I attached some fotos of a conventional product. Before I come up with the idea to the actual design, I tried to fit a conventional TB to that formfactor.
But as you can see by the look of those fotos, it's just not possible because of the required space for the both encoder wheels. In my opinion, thats the main reason for the formfactor of conventional TB's.
Those conventional encoder wheel TBs also have the problem regarding center of gravity of the ball: at the one side, the contact points of their ball beiring should be as high/as for out as possible, at the other side the bearings also have the encoder wheels attached that require space inside the housing from the ball bearing center too the housing top.
To make a long story short: a Arcade-Button form-factor with encoder wheels is impossible.
It was mentioned, that the granularity of the mouse measurements is to high, which results in fast movements with minimal turning of the ball.
Thats right, but basically all mice/track ball regardless of interface transfer delty X and delt Y values. This of the optical mouse trackball a just higher due to higher resolution.
They can be scaled down by adjustments in the software. There is also a theretical possibility, to place a microcontroller (e.g. Arduino MEGA 32U4 or something similar) between mouse sensor and gaming PC to adjust the value. I've done that with some conventional TB before (see attached foto): It reads the values from the PS2 interface of that other trackball, inverts one of the axes and scales both axes before it forwards the converted values via USB to the PC. Unfortunatly that would increase complexity alot and would also have slight impact on costs.

Hope I answered some of your question.
Best regards
Stefan

PS: my pictures where refused to be uploaded for security reasons. Any idea what's behind?

[PL1]

Regarding ball bearings
The ball bearing need to fit inside the big barrel that holds everything together (the one shape with the lib on the top).
And in addition to that, the three ball bearing that define the postion of the ball need to be as far away from the center and as high/ close to the balls widest point as possible to place the center of gravity of the ball as low as possible. Otherwise, if the ball gets pushed hard, it would escape the three ball bearings to "crash" against the housing with immediate high friction which result in a hard stop (bad gameplay experience).
Besides of that, friction during normal operation need to be at a minimum (only the three contact points of the three ball bearings.
To make a long story short: I tried different sizes of ball bearings and it turned out, they need to as small as possible. One of the attached fotos shows a selection of ball bearings with an 1 Cent coin as size reference.

I made a parametric test model to visualize if the 8mm transfer bearings I mentioned earlier could work.



They are too large to work with a 2-1/4" trackball, but it looks like they can work with a 3" or larger ball.

Here's the OpenSCAD code if anyone wants to see if a combination of trackball size, ring size, and bearing mount angle will work.
- The default settings work, but changing the Bearing Block Angle from 45 degrees to 44 degrees causes the bearing mount hole to protrude through the ring. (closer to zero ==> contact point is higher on the ball)
- To see the trackball, remove the comment marks ("//") from the two "translate" and "sphere" lines (32 and 33) after "// TB placeholder"

Code: [Select]

// Trackball Test for Transfer Bearings

/////////////////////////////
//  Define variables
/////////////////////////////
TBDia = 76.2; // Trackball Diameter 2.25" = 57.15mm  3" = 76.2
VertWiggleRoom = 1; // Vertical wiggle room so TB clears base/sensor

RingHeight = 16;
RingOuterDia = 76;
RingInnerDia = 68;

BBAngle = -45; // Bearing Block Angle
BBDepth = 30; // Bearing Block Depth
BBWidth = 20; // Bearing Block Width

BearClear = 1.5; //Bearing clearance
BearDepth = 8; // Bearing base depth
BearDia = 12; // Bearing base diameter


// Number of fragments (polygon sides) used to render a full circle.
    $fn = 180; // Default = 180  Typical range = 6 - 360
    // 6 will render a circular hole as a hexagon, 8 will render a circular hole as an octagon.
    // Lower the number for faster rendering, raise the number for smoother rendering.

/////////////////////////////
//  Make the part
/////////////////////////////

// TB placeholder
//translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
//sphere (d=TBDia);

// Ring
difference(){  // Outer cylinder minus Inner cylinder and Three Bearing Mount Holes
    translate([0, 0, RingHeight/2])
    cylinder (RingHeight, d = RingOuterDia, center=true); // Outer cylinder
//
    translate([0, 0, RingHeight/2])
    cylinder (RingHeight+0.1, d = RingInnerDia, center=true); // Inner cylinder
//
    translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
    rotate([BBAngle, 0, 0])
    translate([0, TBDia/2+BearDepth/2+BearClear, 0])
    rotate([90, 0, 0])
    cylinder (BearDepth+0.1, d = BearDia, center=true); // Bearing Mount Hole 1
//
    translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
    rotate([BBAngle, 0, 120])
    translate([0, TBDia/2+BearDepth/2+BearClear, 0])
    rotate([90, 0, 0])
    cylinder (BearDepth+0.1, d = BearDia, center=true); // Bearing Mount Hole 2
//
    translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
    rotate([BBAngle, 0, 240])
    translate([0, TBDia/2+BearDepth/2+BearClear, 0])
    rotate([90, 0, 0])
    cylinder (BearDepth+0.1, d = BearDia, center=true); // Bearing Mount Hole 3
}
//

// Bearing Blocks
intersection(){ // Intersection of Ring Center and Three Bearing Blocks

    translate([0, 0, RingHeight/2])
    cylinder (RingHeight, d = RingInnerDia, center=true); // Ring Center

    union(){ // Three Bearing Blocks

    // Bearing Block 1
        difference(){ // Block minus Bearing Mount Hole

        translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
        rotate([BBAngle, 0, 0])
        translate([0, TBDia/2+BBDepth/2+BearClear, 0])
        cube ([BBWidth, BBDepth, BBWidth], center=true); // Block

        translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
        rotate([BBAngle, 0, 0])
        translate([0, TBDia/2+BearDepth/2+BearClear, 0])
        rotate([90, 0, 0])
        cylinder (BearDepth+0.1, d = BearDia, center=true); // Bearing Mount Hole
    } // End Bearing Block 1
//
    // Bearing Block 2
    difference(){ // Block minus Bearing Mount Hole

        translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
        rotate([BBAngle, 0, 120])
        translate([0, TBDia/2+BBDepth/2+BearClear, 0])
        cube ([BBWidth, BBDepth, BBWidth], center=true); // Block

        translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
        rotate([BBAngle, 0, 120])
        translate([0, TBDia/2+BearDepth/2+BearClear, 0])
        rotate([90, 0, 0])
        cylinder (BearDepth+0.1, d = BearDia, center=true); // Bearing Mount Hole
    } // End Bearing Block 2
//
    // Bearing Block 3
    difference(){ // Block minus Bearing Mount Hole

        translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
        rotate([BBAngle, 0, 240])
        translate([0, TBDia/2+BBDepth/2+BearClear, 0])
        cube ([BBWidth, BBDepth, BBWidth], center=true); // Block

        translate([0, 0, TBDia/2+VertWiggleRoom])
        rotate([BBAngle, 0, 240])
        translate([0, TBDia/2+BearDepth/2+BearClear, 0])
        rotate([90, 0, 0])
        cylinder (BearDepth+0.1, d = BearDia, center=true); // Bearing Mount Hole
    } // End Bearing Block 3
//
    } // End union of Three Bearing Blocks
//
} // End intersection of Ring Center and Three Bearing Blocks
//



Your current design is the better approach for small trackballs, but transfer bearings might be an option to consider if you scale up to larger sizes.

Usage of optical mouse sensor/ speed of motion
I attached some fotos of a conventional product. Before I come up with the idea to the actual design, I tried to fit a conventional TB to that formfactor.
But as you can see by the look of those fotos, it's just not possible because of the required space for the both encoder wheels. In my opinion, thats the main reason for the formfactor of conventional TB's.
Those conventional encoder wheel TBs also have the problem regarding center of gravity of the ball: at the one side, the contact points of their ball beiring should be as high/as for out as possible, at the other side the bearings also have the encoder wheels attached that require space inside the housing from the ball bearing center too the housing top.
To make a long story short: a Arcade-Button form-factor with encoder wheels is impossible.
It was mentioned, that the granularity of the mouse measurements is to high, which results in fast movements with minimal turning of the ball.
Thats right, but basically all mice/track ball regardless of interface transfer delty X and delt Y values. This of the optical mouse trackball a just higher due to higher resolution.
They can be scaled down by adjustments in the software. There is also a theretical possibility, to place a microcontroller (e.g. Arduino MEGA 32U4 or something similar) between mouse sensor and gaming PC to adjust the value. I've done that with some conventional TB before (see attached foto): It reads the values from the PS2 interface of that other trackball, inverts one of the axes and scales both axes before it forwards the converted values via USB to the PC. Unfortunatly that would increase complexity alot and would also have slight impact on costs.

Two important considerations when choosing a laser mouse for this are the DPI (Dots Per Inch) and Inches per Second (IPS) ratings.
- Some mice allow you to adjust the DPI.
- Check to ensure that the IPS rating is faster than the trackball can be moved.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121927.msg1293874.html#msg1293874

PS: my pictures where refused to be uploaded for security reasons. Any idea what's behind?

Forum software sometimes throws a false positive.   

Cropping or resizing those pictures about 3-5% appears to work.


Scott

[jimmer]

I made a parametric test model to visualize if the 8mm transfer bearings I mentioned earlier could work.



They are too large to work with a 2-1/4" trackball, but it looks like they can work with a 3" or larger ball.

When I thought about using these I assumed without looking that they were just running in Teflon, like spherical bearings, which wouldn't be rolly enough. But now I see there is more to the story.  Some of them (expensive ones) have ball bearings with return channels like in a linear screw bearing. Cheap ones like this  https://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Medium-Duty--Plain-Fitting/MG8-Chrome-Ball-Transfer-Unit-129569-p     indicate a bed of ball bearings but I don't know how that is supposed to work, maybe they run up the wall, hit the lid and shuffle sideways or something.

I've never felt one of these things, be interesting to see someone mount a ball on 3 of them and see how it rolls. Rolling on (spinning) is only needed for some games of course.

But the big picture is: 3 roller bearings work very well and they are very cheap, so there's no need for an alternative.

[RandyT]

I just stumbled upon this.  This is a concept I played with about 8 years ago.  Even bought a big box of bearings for eventual production.  Still trying to figure out what to do with them .

While this is a very nice and well-thought out package design, it's exactly how a PC optical trackball works, in a different form-factor.   They use nylon bearings however, as free-spin is usually not necessary or even desirable in that application.

The issue I ran into, and was mentioned by others, was reliably sensing the surface of the ball for accurate tracking.  The older Logitech PC trackballs actually have a special dot pattern on the ball to aid in tracking.  I think the newer ones are mixed with mica or other refractive material under a clear outer shell, which indicates some changes had to be made, possibly to support higher resolutions.  If a special ball were to be produced with a similar pattern, tracking would work pretty well, at least with slower, non-free-spinning movements.  Logitech must have patented the device, but I haven't really looked into it.

However, I went through many iterations of ball types on my prototype, even going as far as sanding and marking a swirled ball with a sharpie to try to get the accuracy close to that of the standard encoder-wheel based units.  Some of what I experienced was the usual jitter and skipping one might expect from an optical mouse on an incompatible surface.  I will suffice it to say that I didn't feel (at the time) that it was something worth pursuing.  That doesn't mean that someone else won't be successful (tracking modules have improved, as things do), but I did put more than just a little time into the project.

In the end, where accuracy is concerned, it probably can't be as good as the encoder wheel variety (at least in this application.)    As far as ball movement and feel, you can't really do much better than the 3 bearings design.  Unfortunately, I think both will have a tradeoff where a sacrifice will be made in one, for the strengths of the other.  But if that doesn't end up being the case, I would love to talk with the person who gets past the hurdles

[Gasman5422]

You could sell this design on one of several 3D printing sites which would allow consumers to buy it directly.

[Marsupial]

You could sell this design on one of several 3D printing sites which would allow consumers to buy it directly.

I'd buy a printed set

[Howard_Casto]

I just stumbled upon this.  This is a concept I played with about 8 years ago.  Even bought a big box of bearings for eventual production.  Still trying to figure out what to do with them .

While this is a very nice and well-thought out package design, it's exactly how a PC optical trackball works, in a different form-factor.   They use nylon bearings however, as free-spin is usually not necessary or even desirable in that application.

The issue I ran into, and was mentioned by others, was reliably sensing the surface of the ball for accurate tracking.  The older Logitech PC trackballs actually have a special dot pattern on the ball to aid in tracking.  I think the newer ones are mixed with mica or other refractive material under a clear outer shell, which indicates some changes had to be made, possibly to support higher resolutions.  If a special ball were to be produced with a similar pattern, tracking would work pretty well, at least with slower, non-free-spinning movements.  Logitech must have patented the device, but I haven't really looked into it.

However, I went through many iterations of ball types on my prototype, even going as far as sanding and marking a swirled ball with a sharpie to try to get the accuracy close to that of the standard encoder-wheel based units.  Some of what I experienced was the usual jitter and skipping one might expect from an optical mouse on an incompatible surface.  I will suffice it to say that I didn't feel (at the time) that it was something worth pursuing.  That doesn't mean that someone else won't be successful (tracking modules have improved, as things do), but I did put more than just a little time into the project.

In the end, where accuracy is concerned, it probably can't be as good as the encoder wheel variety (at least in this application.)    As far as ball movement and feel, you can't really do much better than the 3 bearings design.  Unfortunately, I think both will have a tradeoff where a sacrifice will be made in one, for the strengths of the other.  But if that doesn't end up being the case, I would love to talk with the person who gets past the hurdles

You bring up some good points.  My main concern is about the optical sensor as well.  What I've found is that the distance you can be away from the ball while still getting an accurate reading is a very low tolerance.  Even with injected molded parts I'm unsure if that could be maintained with a mass-produced unit and that's ignoring the texture issues you bring up.  I'm wondering if regular old encoder wheels could be incorporated.  Certainly not standard arcade sized ones, but maybe the smaller ones used in a traditional pc-trackball/mouse.  They don't necessarily have to be attached to the bearing assembly like on a full-sized trackball, they just need to be free spinning and able to touch the bottom of the ball. 

[yotsuya]

OP: I have no plans to sell these.

RandyT: Good idea, but I tested this once and it results aren’t there yet.

BYOAC: TAKE MY MONEY NOW !!1!




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[RandyT]

OP: I have no plans to sell these.

RandyT: Good idea, but I tested this once and it results aren’t there yet.

BYOAC: TAKE MY MONEY NOW !!1!

 

You bring up some good points.  My main concern is about the optical sensor as well.  What I've found is that the distance you can be away from the ball while still getting an accurate reading is a very low tolerance.  Even with injected molded parts I'm unsure if that could be maintained with a mass-produced unit and that's ignoring the texture issues you bring up.  I'm wondering if regular old encoder wheels could be incorporated.  Certainly not standard arcade sized ones, but maybe the smaller ones used in a traditional pc-trackball/mouse.  They don't necessarily have to be attached to the bearing assembly like on a full-sized trackball, they just need to be free spinning and able to touch the bottom of the ball.

The op's design seems to take that distance into consideration.  Once in the "sweet spot" there should be nothing to change the position.  Optical mice seem to love a fine mesh pattern, such as that of a good mouse pad.  The trick is getting that somewhat accurately onto (or realistically, under) the specular surface of a ball.  It can be done, but it would be challenging on a small production scale or where cost is an issue.  It might take many expensive prototypes or minimum runs to find a ball which works well enough with a given sensor.

I agree that small encoder wheels would be ideal, but the complexity and therefore cost, will climb pretty rapidly.  There's also no real way to do this with transfer bearings, which are the ideal solution for smooth, free and even-resistance movement in all directions.  If the ball still rides on a cylindrical surface, there's not much to be gained over the traditional design, other than possibly footprint.

[yotsuya]

If the ball still rides on a cylindrical surface, there's not much to be gained over the traditional design, other than possibly footprint.

I think it’s the drop-in footprint that has the peanut galley so excited. It’s a cool design, for sure, but I’d rather see it in action and day-to-day use before I spent money for one.

Kudos to the OP for thinking outside the box and using 3D printing for prototyping, though. That’s the way to do it!



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[StefanBurger]

Optical Sensors and readability of a curved surface is in fact an issue.

I literally tested dozens of different mouses with mixed results and found just one by incident that turned out to work without any issue.
Strange thing here, is that that particular mouse (ISY IMM 1000) uses the very same IC (A2803) then those mouses who didn't work.
Also there was no difference in the circuit itself.

My best guess is, that there is a difference in optics, either the optical piece/lens or maybe properties of the used LED (wavelength, angle, lumen) that make the difference.

Regards
Stefan

PS: I just ordered another mouse, with a laser based sensor.
PPS: There is a solution for this, it's waiting somewhere out there to be found 

[RandyT]

Optical Sensors and readability of a curved surface is in fact an issue.

To add to that, the size of the sphere.  A bowling ball would present a surface to the module which would be almost flat, whereas something the size of a joystick ball top would rapidly lose focus as the distance from center increases.

I literally tested dozens of different mouses with mixed results and found just one by incident that turned out to work without any issue.
Strange thing here, is that that particular mouse (ISY IMM 1000) uses the very same IC (A2803) then those mouses who didn't work.
Also there was no difference in the circuit itself.

My best guess is, that there is a difference in optics, either the optical piece/lens or maybe properties of the used LED (wavelength, angle, lumen) that make the difference.

Considering everything else was equal, I'd say you are correct.  Particularly where the optics are concerned.  The lenses for optical mice are mass-produced, and probably don't get much in the way of QC.  In this case, I don't think the one which works was better than the others, rather it was probably one which shouldn't have made it into a mouse.  I'm guessing there was some aberration in the lens which allowed it to have decent focus on a larger part of the ball surface, but that same trait likely made it perform worse on a flat surface. 

[StefanBurger]

Considering everything else was equal, I'd say you are correct.  Particularly where the optics are concerned.  The lenses for optical mice are mass-produced, and probably don't get much in the way of QC.  In this case, I don't think the one which works was better than the others, rather it was probably one which shouldn't have made it into a mouse.  I'm guessing there was some aberration in the lens which allowed it to have decent focus on a larger part of the ball surface, but that same trait likely made it perform worse on a flat surface.

Negative: to confirm repeatability I tested three different mouses of the model ISY MM 1000, all three worked flawless on the ball and on a flat surface

[RandyT]

Negative: to confirm repeatability I tested three different mouses of the model ISY MM 1000, all three worked flawless on the ball and on a flat surface

Ok, I misunderstood.  I thought you had tested multiples of the same model and found one from a group which worked.  Guess I need to read better

I would still lean toward the optics.  From what I recall when looking into this, the optics and camera modules were usually separate items.  It's not beyond the realm of possibility that that particular model uses a different optical arrangement from the others you tested.  I suppose it could be the LED color, but I doubt that the wavelength of the LED would make that much difference.  The brightness could be a factor with a shiny white ball.  Intuitively, one would expect a less intense light to produce less glare.  Might be worth putting a potentiometer on one which doesn't work, and looking at how varying the light output affects performance.

[millercentral]

Love this design. Is there any way to illuminate the ball?


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[yotsuya]

RandyT: Hmmm... a shiny, bright ball might not be optimal for tracking... you’d need a duller surface with less glare....

BYOAC: OMG CAN WE MAKE THE TRACKBALL LED LIT!!!1!


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[RandyT]

RandyT: Hmmm... a shiny, bright ball might not be optimal for tracking... you’d need a duller surface with less glare....

BYOAC: OMG CAN WE MAKE THE TRACKBALL LED LIT!!!1!

....The funny thing is, if (and it's a big if) the ball had a finely speckled surface, and you could get enough light past the speckles and into the ball, and you didn't use any other illumination, it might just work .

[yotsuya]

RandyT: Hmmm... a shiny, bright ball might not be optimal for tracking... you’d need a duller surface with less glare....

BYOAC: OMG CAN WE MAKE THE TRACKBALL LED LIT!!!1!

....The funny thing is, if (and it's a big if) the ball had a finely speckled surface, and you could get enough light past the speckles and into the ball, and you didn't use any other illumination, it might just work .

C’mon, Randy, unless you’re being blinded by the thing looking down, it’s just not worth it


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[Mike A]

We also need an add on module that reports the positional data to an LCD screen on the control panel. And another LCD for rpms.

[pbj]

Since this is all custom 3D printed anyway, you might consider sizing it to use juggling balls.  They're cheap and you can get all kinds of stupid colors, finishes, black light responsive, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=contact+juggling+ball&i=toys-and-games

[Howard_Casto]

If the ball still rides on a cylindrical surface, there's not much to be gained over the traditional design, other than possibly footprint.

I think it’s the drop-in footprint that has the peanut galley so excited. It’s a cool design, for sure, but I’d rather see it in action and day-to-day use before I spent money for one.

Kudos to the OP for thinking outside the box and using 3D printing for prototyping, though. That’s the way to do it!

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^This^.  Traditional trackballs require either a metal control panel or a stupid mounting plate.  Being able to just drill a hole and be done with it, no bolts or strange cuts or recesses or anything is the appeal for me.  While laser optics definitely make it cool (and cheap) I could care less about that. 

pbj:  One of those juggling balls is rgb and usb… I don't know why but I must have it now. 

[RandyT]

Traditional trackballs require either a metal control panel or a stupid mounting plate. 

I won't argue against the convenience of drilling a hole (albeit, a quite large one), but the above statement isn't accurate.  It just requires a bit of skill with a router, and not all that much as it doesn't need to be pretty on the underside of the panel.  And if you have access to a CNC, well, it'll be really pretty .    And if you know what you are doing, you won't even have any unsightly carriage bolts showing, thanks to all the meat of the wood surrounding it.  Lots of holding power for brackets or whatever your heart desires.

[Marsupial]

Traditional trackballs require either a metal control panel or a stupid mounting plate. 

It just requires a bit of skill with a router, and not all that much as it doesn't need to be pretty on the underside of the panel.

Randy stole my point.

That being said, I have smaller candy cab where the smaller footprint is make or break for adding a trackball...
But for bigger panels it really is about convenience.

[StefanBurger]

Just tested two different laser mouses in an improvised setup. They work flawless with a shiny white ball. Only thing here is, that the cirucuitry is much more complex and full of SMD components. Replicate such a PCB in the right form factor and solder SMD components is far beyond my capabilities. Not quite sure how to continue from here 

[PL1]

Some of those SMD components may not be needed, depending on the function they perform. (i.e. RGB LED mood lighting)

You can substitute through-hole components of the same value for the needed components.

Not quite sure how to continue from here 

The obvious next step is to post the manufacturer and model number of those two mice.   
- Bonus points for including links to the specs and vendors selling the mice.
- Double bonus points for including the part numbers for the sensor and optics.
- Hopefully one of these new ones is also available on an American site instead of just European sites like here or here that carry the ISY IMM-1000 you mentioned earlier.

You may also want to consider building a spreadsheet with all the relevant info about the mice you've tested so others who want to contribute info don't waste their time testing a known non-working model.   


Scott

[StefanBurger]

Those are the two:
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00HV9ZG98/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B008968NGU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Vigo]

This looks like the American equivalent for the google challenged:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002B3YCQM
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008968NGU

[PL1]

Thanks for the links, guys.   

That M500 has a lot more components than I expected.   




Scott

[Howard_Casto]

That's Logitech for you... over engineer the product so you have to actually produce the thing at a lower quality to cut costs. 

[StefanBurger]

The Logitech has a seperate daughter board, just for scroll wheel and mouse buttons, not really necessary for the trackball.
the HP is much more simplistic, but still a lot of SMD components.

[RandyT]

Another thing for folks to keep in mind is that these sensors are nothing without a properly coded MCU to drive them.  There are many settings and data points upon which to act, some of which require some specialized software from the manufacturer to access.  Finding a hackable mouse which works is one thing, but actually building any kind of product from scratch is quite a process.

In other words, one which works in this application probably does so due to the engineering choices made when the mouse was designed.  One common comment about the M500 seems to be that FPS gamers don't like it due to accuracy and lag issues.  There's probably more smoothing going on under the hood, which improves apparent performance on less than ideal surfaces.  I.e. fudging the output is better than the user seeing every little hiccup.  Understandable concerns for FPS players, but maybe not so much for old arcade games.

[Marsupial]

My hope would be to find a suitable mouse that's small enough to fit without having to rebuild a mouse system for the trackball. I've seen tiny travel optical mice that could perhaps do something great in such setup (to try)
I soldered surface mount on custom made pcbs before, but before that I had to actually engineer the device... Making a whole mouse from ground up seems like a lot of work for something that may be fixed by mounting existing pcbs inside the shell.

Stefan's genius work here is the shell.

[nitrogen_widget]

This looks like the American equivalent for the google challenged:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002B3YCQM
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008968NGU

I'd be printing the shell out of ABS for pennies.
$20 is too much.

What you need to do is find what optical module those mice use.
what LED emitter and what CMOS sensor then just look up example.
10-1 they are using the generic circuit diagram for the optical module.
they just use SMD components because they can.

we should probably start with the chip's from mice that work and don't work since i'm just guessing as i've not done anything in 20 yrs with LED emitters and receivers and even then it was just an experiment in class to transmit mono audio in dark room 5 ft in my electronics lab.

[Xerobull]

This is fantastic. Any updates, Stefan?

I would

1. Patent
2. Engage China for manufacturing
3. Kickstarter it

[markymark72]

No activity on here for a long time and nothing on youtube either which is a real shame.

Quick question, does Stefans original design use plain ball bearings or the ball transfer bearings that were posted by another? I can tell in the youtube video as its so small and fast.

Cheers

[PL1]

No activity on here for a long time

Ropi Jo started looking into doing something like this last month.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,167034.msg1760284.html#msg1760284

The thing that stopped me from going further several years ago is the Y-axis inversion issue.
- When you flip a mouse on it's back with the "tail" toward you and mount a ball over it, the X-axis works right but the Y-axis is reversed.
- If you're only using the trackball in MAME, it's easy to reverse the Y-axis in the game settings.
- If you want the trackball to work normally in Windows, you need to mod the PCB or encoder.   

does Stefans original design use plain ball bearings or the ball transfer bearings that were posted by another?

The transfer bearings that I mentioned earlier are too large for a 2.25" trackball, but might work with a 3" or larger.

Stefan used small bearings like these.


There's more info and some 3d-printable testbed files that use these small bearings in Ropi Jo's thread.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,167034.msg1760347.html#msg1760347


Scott