Info on how Terminator salvation gun works

Main > Lightguns

<< < (2/3) > >>

thet0ast3r:
My guess on the functioning of this system is that it works just like any other (modern) IR gun system out there, but with way more IR leds than needed (12 instead of 4) for better redundancy. Alternatively it could be a setup like the Sega type II IR gun used, which didnt have a traditional camera, but IR leds and a "light direction detection" assembly consisting of 4 photodiodes and a rectangular shutter, which determined the direction of 1 ir led. all the IR leds were flashed separately, and so the type II ir gun didnt even need a camera in the gun. I also assume that this system does not have to see al leds at a time. seeing more than 4 lets should only add redundancy (and probably extra accuracy).

I kinda don`t like the modern taito guns, they seem to have noticeable input lag, which might come from a combination of lcd screens/dlp projector latency, ir camera latency (probably 60 fps) and a little bit of processing latency.

Also, in most modern lightgun games you have to be at some distance for the guns to work.
@Zebra: yea, the "screen" is not needed at all. for instance, on a 16:9 screen it can be pretty beneficial to mount the leds on the top and bottom; and more in the middle, so that the fov of the camere doesnt have to go to all the way to all edges to see all ir leds, but only 2/3rds or something of the screen.

Zebra:
IR arcade guns definitely don't all operate the same way. The way Raw Thrills IR guns work is described in the Terminator Salvation manual. It's definitely not like the Sega type 2. As I said, they have a camera in the gun that uses the orientation of the led boards (which are covered with a smoked lens) to calculate aiming coordinates.

Raw Thrills led boards have no intelligence or instruction from the IO board. Their only input is 12v DC. I can't see any output.

I have a Sega type 2 set-up at home. I haven't figured out how it works under the hood yet but I can't see any evidence of it lighting led boards individually. I'm not sure where that info came from originally. I thought it was just a guess. Have Sega ever released any concrete info on this? My guess is that it works by sensing proximity to each led board as the tech looks like what you see in motion sensing security lights. There is no camera. Each led board has connections to feed info to the I/O. I.e. It knows which boards the gun is facing and therefore, where you are aiming.

Namco uses at least 4 different HD screen gun technologies. Crisis Zone uses a laser pointer with a camera facing the screen (like the PDP mars). Time Crisis 4 is identical to Sega Type 2 (they are interchangeable). Time Crisis 5 is a new design with 9 wire gun sensors instead of 6. Razing Storm is unique again.

Konami IR guns work like the Guncon 3 with two mounted led clusters mounted on the top corners of the screen. However they work, they use two points of reference instead of one like the Aimtrak and are noticeably more accurate.

So.., there is no "just like any other IR gun".

thet0ast3r:
So we have some different designs:

1. gun has IR laser pointer, ir camera faces screen: (DPD mars light gun, Crisis zone)
flaws: how to deal with multiple guns/how to separate the guns, screen has to deflect enough of the laser pointers light to be seen from the IR camera pointing at the screen

2. gun has ir camera installed, ir leds mounted near the screen, facing the gun

A: gun tracks 2 or less points: wii remote, aimtraks, PS guncon3 ?, etc...
flaws: these systems assume (have to assume) you are centered in front of the screen, and after being calibrated, if you move to another position, the gun will be inaccurate
B: gun tracks 4 or more points: LCD TopGun series, taito arcade guns, etc... (special case, but same principle: sega type II ir guns)
flaws: -

flaws: camera fov has to see atleast a) 1/2 or b) 4 or more points for tracking

Also, both aimtraks and guncon 3 use 2 points of reference if im not mistaken.

Zebra:
It's more complicated than that. Using the same type of hardware doesn't make it the same design. It's the method (of calculating coordinates) and the implementation that matters.

The Aimtrak and Wii remote use the same design. They simply track motion in relation to a single point of reference. There is no method of calculating what the gun is pointed at, only how much it moved in related to the led bar. This is why the crosshairs don't line up with your iron sights if you move even a little.

The Guncon 3 appears to use a different design and not just because it uses two led clusters instead of one. Each cluster has 3 led lights facing different directions. My assumption is that this is used to provide data on what direction the gun is pointing, kinda like a cheaper version of the Sega system. However it works, it is considerably more accurate than an Aimtrak or Wii remote if set up right.

Konami Teraburst guns also use two sensors but each one has 9 LEDs in a square formation (all facing forward). Again, we have no reliable data but my guess is that the orientation of the square led formations are used like on Raw Thrills guns. Interestingly, their guns work way closer to the screen than Wii remotes and Aimtraks.

If we were to break it down by method, you have:

1: Simple motion capture with a gun camera and one point of reference (Aimtrak, Wii)
2: Using a photo diode with intelligent led boards to calculate which direction the gun is facing (Sega, TC4 and possibly Guncon 3)
3: Using a ccd camera with a square or rectangular led formation and using to orientation of the led formation to calculate aiming coordinates (Raw Thrills and possibly Konami guns)
4: Still screen facing camera with a laser pointer in the gun (Crisis Zone, TC3 HD, PDP mars)
5: Camera and laser pointer in the gun plus white box around screen (Sinden)
6: However Time Crisis 5 works (we just know it's different to TC4 and Sega type 2

I've never opened an EMS Topgun 3 or a Taito IR gun so who knows how they use their LEDs...

I think the laser pointer method has the most potential for a low cost accurate gun. Two players is easily achieved with two different color (or different wavelength) laser pointers. Or, worst case, also using two cameras with color filters to make sure each one only saw the appropriate laser pointer. As long as you used an IR laser that's invisible to the naked eye, it would be more accurate than a light gun with no visible crosshairs (or red dot) on screen.

thet0ast3r:
I don`t know why you are so confident that the wiimote and the aimtrak use only 1 light to track their position, when they clearly track TWO, 2.

There even is a test program in the wii software that lets you check if all two light sources of the bar still work.
As for the aimtraks, if you take a look at their pcb-only bar, they also clearly have two independent light sources. There is no system out there that has only one light source.

I still don`t quite get what leaves you thinking that the GC3 has no ir camera in the gun.

I have EMS topguns and they clearly have ir cameras in them. they aren`t even covered or anything, just mounted in the nozzle.

Ill agree that an IR laser pointer should be the most cost effective AND accurate method at the same time, but expanding this system for two or more players is harder, since most people don`t like having multiple visible, colored dots on their screen most of the time.

Navigation

 Message Index

Go to full version