Enabling EDID emulation not causing any change

[SamIAm]

Greetings, everyone. I'm sorry to trouble you with beginner questions. I'll keep this short and simple.

Dell Optiplex 3020 (i5-4570)
Windows 10 (Japanese version, apparently upgraded from Windows 7)
Radeon HD 5450 (DVI-I and DisplayPort outputs)

Following these instructions, I successfully installed CRT Emudriver 2.0 (Catalyst 12.6). However, when I attempted to use VMMaker 2.0 beta 15 to enable EDID emulation, I could not get it to work.

Upon clicking the "Enable EDID emulation" button, the screen flashes briefly but ultimately stays in the original resolution (800x600). I see a message about the the device restarting, and the button then reads "Disable EDID emulation", but there is no change. This is true no matter which of the two "Output" options I select*. I have de-selected "Extend desktop automatically on device restart". Everything else in VMMaker was at default settings the first time I tried this.

*The two options are: Digital_2-DVI-I and Analog_0-VGA

Aborting this step and moving on, I have successfully generated the super-resolutions and installed them, and I've also launched Groovymame in true 15khz. However, EDID emulation would be very useful. What might I do to enable it?

If it's at all meaningful, I've noticed that the "Test Mode" text in the lower right of the screen that appeared during the driver installation process is still there, even after restarting.

Thank you!

[SamIAm]

I just discovered something: Enabling composite sync doesn't work either. I've only just now been able to test it.

Also, somewhat strangely, under VMMaker's Edit Settings -> Video Card -> Device heading, the "DISPLAY" number keeps climbing every time I click the Enable/Disable EDID emulation button. Right now, it reads:

DISPLAY16 - ATI Radeon HD 5450 (CRT Emudriver WDDM v1.2) - Generic NonPNPMonitor - enabled

And here, I'll click the button. Now it reads:

DISPLAY19 - ATI Radeon HD 5450 (CRT Emudriver WDDM v1.2) - Generic NonPNPMonitor - enabled

It appears that it will keep going up indefinitely.

No EDID emulation and no composite sync each make this setup much less convenient to use. I'd really like to get this to work. Which of the following do you think I should try next?

1. Reinstalling CRT Emudriver
2. Buying a different video card
3. Experimenting with old versions of CRT Emudriver / VMMaker

Of course, any other suggestions are welcome. Thank you!

[MrMikeZH]

Following these instructions, I successfully installed CRT Emudriver 2.0 (Catalyst 12.6). However, when I attempted to use VMMaker 2.0 beta 15 to enable EDID emulation, I could not get it to work.

Upon clicking the "Enable EDID emulation" button, the screen flashes briefly but ultimately stays in the original resolution (800x600). I see a message about the the device restarting, and the button then reads "Disable EDID emulation", but there is no change. This is true no matter which of the two "Output" options I select*. I have de-selected "Extend desktop automatically on device restart". Everything else in VMMaker was at default settings the first time I tried this.

*The two options are: Digital_2-DVI-I and Analog_0-VGA

Aborting this step and moving on, I have successfully generated the super-resolutions and installed them, and I've also launched Groovymame in true 15khz. However, EDID emulation would be very useful. What might I do to enable it?

If it's at all meaningful, I've noticed that the "Test Mode" text in the lower right of the screen that appeared during the driver installation process is still there, even after restarting.

Thank you!

So you are using an dvi-i to vga adaptor?
You have successfully launched gm in 15khz? Normaly you need the edid emulation to do just that on 5000+ cards, if you have a 15khz picture on the tv your cable and connections are ok but why would the edid emulation be very useful like you say when you already have a picture on  the 15khz screen?
windows stays in test mode for the driver to work but there are tools to hide that text.
you can try driver beta10 besides 15 to see which interlace picture you like more.
after a restart the display numbers return to  display1 2....

[SamIAm]

Thank you for your reply. 

So you are using an dvi-i to vga adaptor?

You have successfully launched gm in 15khz?

Both correct. Arcade_OSD works as well.

Also, when not in 15khz, I am using an external downscaler. This PC is connected exclusively to 15khz-only displays. Of course, when switching over to 15khz, I remove the downscaler from the chain.

Normaly you need the edid emulation to do just that on 5000+ cards, if you have a 15khz picture on the tv your cable and connections are ok but why would the edid emulation be very useful like you say when you already have a picture on  the 15khz screen?

It would be very convenient for me to be able to access Windows functions on a 15khz-only display, as there are other emulators I would like to experiment with in 15khz beyond Groovymame. As for composite sync, I think I'd bore you to death if I explained all the particulars of my setup; suffice to say, I am currently combining sync with an Extron SS 200, but it would be very beneficial to eliminate that.

Indeed, the fact that I'm able to successfully launch GM in 15khz despite EDID emulation / composite sync not working is puzzling.

One theory that I have is that even though EDID emulation and composite sync are supposed to work on HD 5000+ cards, my particular HD 5450 might be a bit weird, what with it being a Japanese model and everything. I might have better luck with a 6000 series.

[MrMikeZH]

It would be very convenient for me to be able to access Windows functions on a 15khz-only display, as there are other emulators I would like to experiment with in 15khz beyond Groovymame.

What do you mean exactly, what functions?

I mean you have a picture at 15khz with gm like you say and have the modelines installed, thats all you need.
Or was the picture downscaled?

as for csync, i always use the hand combiner (twist h/vsync togehter) and there has yet to be a display not liking that.
since you have a picture at all your sync is ok, or do you mean using a display without your scaler?

[SamIAm]

What do you mean exactly, what functions?

I'd like to be able to use explorer to launch other programs, such as non-GM emulators that will work with custom modelines. There may be other times when I'd like to use Windows to manage files, like when a new version of something comes out.

Groovymame works on this PC in 15khz, but Windows itself does not since EDID emulation is failing. I could set things up to boot directly into GM and only ever use that, but it seems a waste. It's also a big pain in the neck to whip out the downscaler every time I need to do anything in Windows.

Or was the picture downscaled?

No, it is definitely not downscaled. The downscaler is completely out of the chain when I use 15khz.

as for csync, i always use the hand combiner (twist h/vsync togehter) and there has yet to be a display not liking that.

Like I said, I am using an Extron SS 200 to combine sync. Of course, this is when I'm using a direct connection and not the downscaler (which, for the record, outputs S-video). I'd like to have composite sync output for reasons that are complicated and not particularly relevant.

I mean, I guess I could just use a T joiner, but I'd rather not since it's not good practice electrically speaking. I bet that if I fix the EDID issue, it will simultaneously allow me to use real composite sync.

[MrMikeZH]

you say that arcade_osd works as well.
can you check if all resolutions there have about 15khz, looks like just your desktop resolution is somehow not 15khz.
select lets say 640x480 if its there and then select set as desktop mode.
also post whats inside your modeline.txt here.

Edit:
I could reproduce your situation by trying csync for myself to see if it improves the picture compared to handcombined sync.

something goes wrong with vmm in the process of enabling csync.
to get a picture on 5000+ cards you need edid emulation so your edid emulation is working.
ater having a picture from the edid emulation wich is one 640x480 resolution in the emulated edid,
enabling csync now somehow corrupts this output and you dont have a picture anymore.
looking in arcadeosd which shows us that one resolution from the emulated edid (doing this on primary monitor since the other wont display anything now) everthing looks good,
and if you edit the modeline then  by changing lets say horizontal size and back again, the picture appears suddenly.
now you can intall other modelines.

calamity please confirm this behaviour
on the driver page you describe the process of enabling csync with the additional step of installing all modelines again.

- Again, HD 5000+ cards are easier to setup for composite sync than legacy ones. Just enable composite sync for the selected output, create the modes and you're done.

isnt that because the eedid modeline got corrupted and we need to have another modline besides the one from eedid to have a picture?


also i could get in the state of having a csync enabled picture which would remain no matter if i disable or enable the edid emulation, cant reproduce that though.

[Calamity]

calamity please confirm this behaviour
on the driver page you describe the process of enabling csync with the additional step of installing all modelines again.

Installing modelines is required after enabling EDID emulation, since the default mode that comes with the EDID: 640x480@30i, is not affected by the csync setting, so you need to install modelines so this mode gets overridden by a new 640x480@60i mode with csync enabled.

BTW, Don't care about the 30 vs 60 Hz thing. Showing halved refresh rates for interlaced modes is just a (silly) way Windows has to indicate they're interlaced. Refresh is still 60i in both cases.

[MrMikeZH]

calamity please confirm this behaviour
on the driver page you describe the process of enabling csync with the additional step of installing all modelines again.

Installing modelines is required after enabling EDID emulation, since the default mode that comes with the EDID: 640x480@30i, is not affected by the csync setting, so you need to install modelines so this mode gets overridden by a new 640x480@60i mode with csync enabled.

BTW, Don't care about the 30 vs 60 Hz thing. Showing halved refresh rates for interlaced modes is just a (silly) way Windows has to indicate they're interlaced. Refresh is still 60i in both cases.

sorry but that way this mode does not get overridden, there are 2 modes then present in the system, one not working 30i from the eedid and one 60i we just added working correctly.
by manipulating ( manipulate to the same values also) the 30i eedid modeline, it gets overridden, thats what happends actually.

so samiam has to change desktop resolution to added 640x480 60i resolution or override the existing 640x480 30i with arcade_osd.

for the 60i 30i thing for itself: when any 60i mode runs with 30hz refresh, choppy movement on desktop and everything half speed with vsync or choppy without vsync because
the 60 fields are not individual, how can not caring about it change it to be 60 individual??? what triggers the fields to be individual or not?

[SamIAm]

I should probably start by saying that as of last night, I was able to find effective workarounds to both of my problems. Before I get into that, though...

to get a picture on 5000+ cards you need edid emulation so your edid emulation is working.

This appears to be inaccurate. Right now, I have EDID emulation disabled, and yet a 15khz picture is displaying for both the Windows desktop and Groovymame, while my downscaler is back in storage.

The impression that I got from the Calamity's instructions is that EDID emulation is mostly just a clever way to convince a GPU to use 15khz with the Windows desktop in a way that's flexible. Perhaps, I'm wrong. Regardless, by using ArcadeOSD's "Set as desktop mode" function, I was able to finally get a permanent 640x480 15khz interlaced mode set and working. I hadn't realized that this would remain even after rebooting the computer. There is now no longer a need for EDID emulation as far as I can see, since the PC in question will be connected only the 15khz monitors.

(As an aside, I did try reinstalling CRT Emudriver, and EDID emulation still didn't work.)


The other challenge I had was to somehow get composite sync for my monitors and remove the Extron SS 200 from my chain. Here's a shot of my gaming setup. (Why is the forum software refusing to let me simply link to this image?) There are four monitors in active use, a big matrix switch, and a couple of other Extron boxes doing other stuff with sync.

It would take forever to explain everything that's really going on in this mess. Suffice to say, I came up with a hackish but nonetheless effective solution to get one of my other Extrons to combine sync from this PC and output it to all of the monitors, and still have everything be controlled by buttons and switches - no unlplugging of cables or anything necessary. Thank god the Extron 202 Plus has two inputs!

If anyone is curious, the problem with the Extron SS 200 is that it doesn't deal with certain frequencies well. It's OK with some forms of 15khz, but some combinations of H and V sync make it output a goofy C sync that messes up the picture. Changing the settings on the device does not help, either.

While I'd still prefer it if my Groovymame PC could output composite sync, I can live with the current situation. Thank you MrMikeZH for taking the time to try to help me. While I would still be curious if anyone has any ideas about enabling composite sync, I'll consider this "case closed" for now.

Thanks again. 

[MrMikeZH]

Great that you have it working now!

Lets say the edid emulation is not working in your case and you get it to work, what do you expect to get after having it working?

You can easily test it by uninstalling the driver. Best with https://www2.ati.com/drivers/amdcleanuputility-x64.exe.
Install emudriver again and dont touch csync, just enable the edid emulation and if you have a picture it is working.
Of course you need to combine syncs now however you want.

On that i can confirm that the picture is 100% the same here with csync or simply combined h/v signals.

Its the Csync option in vmm which is somehow messy, i could also get in your state of having a picture with csync and the edid enable/disable having no impact.
But in this state the edid emulation is working since we have a picture, we just cant disable it istead of not enable it.

[Calamity]

The main purpose of EDID emulation is to force display detection. If you're already getting your display detected as Generic non-PNP monitor, then there's nothing to worry and you can go on creating and installing modes. It's just not so convenient as these modes will be mixed with the native ones which will be at 31 kHz but GM will figure out which ones to use. EDID emulation is absolutely required on setups where the monitor is not automatically detected, such as arcade monitors through a JPAC, which caused lots of troubles in the past.

EDID emulation not working could be specific to your card or pc, unfortunately I can't tell since I've never faced that issue. For your card, I'd highly recommend the version based on Crimson 16.2.1 instead of the older one you're using. Always use the newest version that supports your card. Older ones are just kept for backwards compatibility.

With regards csync, you probably know this video I made:

[buttersoft]

There are situations where, without EDID emulation enabled on newer cards, windows will simply decide that since there's no EDID, it had better revert to normal video modes, hadn't it? It will simply boot up at 800x600 or higher. Anything you change - installing programs, switching hardware, messing with display configuration, and of course windows updates - can trigger this, but it can also happen at random. It shouldn't, i acknowledge, but it does.
 
And if you plug something into the same port you're using for 15kHz, and that thing, monitor, scaler, transcoder, has its own EDID, it will override and possibly cause problems once you remove it. This can't happen with EDID emulation enabled, however.

[SuperSpongo]

Sorry to dig up this old topic, but I have a similar problem:
I have a Radeon HD 7450 in my Windows 7 PC. Whenever I activate EDID, the signal gets shut off completely. I tested this with an Extron Interface, the LED turns from green to orange.
However, the 15kHz modelines seem to work on my setup as well. Really strange.

Could it have something to do with the BIOS flashed onto those cards? I bought two of them from ebay and I assume they were ripped out of an OEM PC like HP or something.
I would really like to use CSYNC.

EDIT: I just installed beta 13 and here I had the same discribed behavior that EDID Emulation did exactly nothing. Same with CSYNC.

[buttersoft]

EDID emulation should be completely under driver control. Have you unchecked the "add modes from driver" box, or whatever it's called? Are you sure you're enabling the right port? I'd guess you were or you wouldn't be able to install modelines, but it might be worth checking. The ports won't necessarily be named right under VMM. It might also be necessary to recover from trying this, if it fails. You might have to either plug in an LCD to each port to see, or maybe boot into safe mode, uninstall crt_emudriver, and go again.

[Calamity]

Just to be 100% sure, try to reboot the pc right after enabling EDID emulation. VMMaker "resets" the video card so EDID emulation is applied (that's why the reported display label increases). But if this resetting failed, it'd be like how you describe (I haven't witnessed it though).

[SuperSpongo]

Thanks for the quick response guys!
Yeah, over the weekend I tried every constellation. To add more info, it is a Radeon 7450 from this ebay auction:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/353870843365
Here's an image mirror for generations to come 

It has an unpopulated 16pin header where other cards have an additional analog VGA out, but I'm using the DVI-I port for now (I'm planning on populating the header and see if I can use this one also).

I also tried restarting the system after installing the driver. Like I described, when using Beta 13, the EDID emulation button did nothing, when using the latest Beta 15, the EDID emulation caused the DVI-I port to go black completely and the Extron Interface to lose signal.

[SuperSpongo]

UPDATE:
So I managed to get EDID working with the 7450.
I had two options, DVI-I and Analog0.
Like I said, the VGA port is not populated and I'm using a dvi to VGA adapter. As such, I was trying to enable EDID on DVI-I, but I had to use Analog0!

CSYNC still doesn't work though. I bought a 5450 to try without success.
I also saw the note that for CSYNC, one has to enable positive polarity for horizontal and vertical. But still no dice...

I'll keep at it.

[mrchrister]

AFAIK positive polarity is not required on 5xxx and above cards. I had a lot of trouble with csync as well. One piece of advise I can give:

I use VNC software to check the screen and I only have the CRT connected. Csync wasn't working when there were other displays connected. The DVI vs Analogue mistake I made as well btw

If you are connected by VNC and your csync is enabled but your CRT is still losing vertical sync, try launching a game in Groovymame. If that works you probably forgot to generate modelines in VMM.

On one of my setups I was not able to get csync working with 640x480. Strangely enough, it was working for any other resolution (you can check with ArcadeOSD). Solution was to use the other AMD drivers (16.2.1 instead of 18.5.1). i guess you can only use 16.2.1 with your card so this shouldn't be the issue.

[SuperSpongo]

Alright thanks for the pointers!
I never heard of VNC until now, pardon my noobishness  Sounds handy for a groovymame setup.