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Author Topic: My take on arcade emulation.  (Read 2713 times)

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fuchi_jeg

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2019, 03:57:37 am »
I agree with the original post for a few reasons. First, the amount of work and special skills needed to get groovymame and a keyboard encoder working with the controls and monitor far exceed the skills needed to build a cabinet consisting of 2 side panels and some shelves. Second, the monitor and control panel sizes generally need to be factored into the design of the cabinet. It just makes sense that it would be tailored to monitor/control panel vs. The other way around.  Third, a finished cabinet is absolutely useless if you never get GM working with some type of monitor setup.
   I originally envisioned my machine as a portable control panel that I could connect to any LCD monitor via hdmi.  Once it was designed, built, and the PC was installed I started tinkering with a consumer CRT and vga to component encoder.   That morphed into a 25" multisync arcade monitor and a full cabinet, which is nearly complete.  I can't imagine starting with a cabinet carcass and trying to shoehorn the electronics in at a later time and hoping you can wrap your mind around the software and hardware side.  I'll post some photos once its 100%.
     

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2019, 05:04:23 am »
I can't imagine starting with a cabinet carcass and trying to shoehorn the electronics in at a later time and hoping you can wrap your mind around the software and hardware side.

When I decided I wanted to try MAME in my SFII cabinet, it was displaying on the monitor less than an hour later, and that included the time it took to solder a VGA cable into a JAMMA adapter PCB to plug into my cabinet's JAMMA harness. I used an old PC with an HD 5450 video card that I already had, and installed GroovyArcade after watching a short tutorial on YouTube. Granted, initially I had to use a keyboard or USB gamepad to control it, and PC speakers for sound, so the job wasn't complete yet.

After I saw that the proof of concept was successful, I ordered a PS/2 KeyWiz so that I could connect the cabinet's joysticks and buttons to the PC via the KeyWiz which I wired to the JAMMA adapter, and I already had a small 12-volt audio amplifier, so I wired that in to get sound to the cabinet's speakers. I didn't make any permanent changes to the arcade cabinet, nor did I hack into or otherwise alter any of its original wiring (all the wiring I did was to the KeyWiz, amplifier, and JAMMA adapter; the JAMMA adapter is what allows everything to plug into the cabinet's wiring harness), and I can switch back to the original boardset in less than a minute by unplugging the card edge connector and kick harness from the JAMMA adapter and plugging them back into the SFII boardset, which is still inside the cabinet in the same place that it's always been.

Obviously building a cabinet is way more of a hassle and expense than just getting a PC to work with a 15 KHz CRT (though the latter only gives you a home console experience, which isn't worth expending any effort at all in my opinion), but if you already have a JAMMA cabinet, it isn't hard at all to get MAME running on it at 15 KHz.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 05:11:15 am by MaximRecoil »

fuchi_jeg

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2019, 05:15:59 am »
I completely agree, and once everything is buttoned up I plan on adding some dedicated jamma boards into my rotation. I was speaking more of the guys starting with a bare carcass, or new construction cabinet.  There is a lot of additional work involved there. I would venture to say that most guys that start an "arcadecade jones's multicade" MAME abortion dont have a working cabinet to convert.

jennifer

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2019, 01:35:05 pm »
Buying your first real cab is an experience you will NEVER forget...The stink of mouse pee, begging your friends, the handful of cash, the excitement, Will it fit through the door? Is it going to rain?, can I fix it?...Mame still sucks, and is overly confusing with all those unlabeled buttons, One coin, one control, one game.

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2019, 02:11:59 pm »
Mame still sucks, and is overly confusing with all those unlabeled buttons, One coin, one control, one game.

In my opinion, the best approach to MAME in an arcade cabinet is to only add games that use the same or nearly the same controls. For example, there are lots of games that use an 8-way joystick and 3 buttons, since that's the JAMMA standard. There's also the 8-way joystick and 6 button layout that the Street Fighter games used. Or a 4-way joystick with 2 buttons, or even just 1 button, will work for most of the classic vertical-monitor games. There are even quite a few games that used a 4-way joystick and no buttons (not counting the start buttons).

I wouldn't trade any of my dedicated arcade machines for a MAME cabinet, but MAME is nice to have in addition to them. In my case, one of my arcade cabinets is Street Fighter II: The World Warrior. I can easily beat the AI on the hardest DIP switch setting without losing a match, or even a round for that matter, and have been able to do so for over 25 years, so there's no challenge, and no one I know is any good at SFII, so there's no challenge playing human opponents either. By connecting a MAME PC to it with all of the CPS-1, 2, and 3 Street Fighter games (all of which use the same controls of course), suddenly the machine is fun to play again. I've been playing a lot of SFII: Hyper Fighting (hardest DIP switch setting) since I set it up a couple weeks ago, and have gone from beating it with 17 continues to just 2 continues. After that there are about 10 more that I can try to beat without any losses, though the AI is so difficult on some of them that I probably never will be able to.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2019, 03:59:33 pm »
Quote
In North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor

I'm sure that's far from reality.

It doesn't matter that you're sure.

25'' monitors were indeed more common than 29'' ones in Europe and Japan as well during the early 90's despite what I said. From 1994 onwards (and the "CRT era" at least lasted 10 years more in the arcades), it's the other way round, though, at least in Japan, which I thought we already were past this phase of realizing that it's the region of reference in regards to anything arcade-related worth referencing beyond the early Atari.

But OK; the US stuck to 19 and 25'' if you say so. The latter is still a bit too big for proper perception at ~30 cm. New users, especially those in Europe -- think about ergonomics before fetichism. A good, 25~29'' RGB TV set will do wonders for some serious gaming, which I believe that's what you're after if you're reading the Groovy MAME forum. You can rotate it easily for verticality when needed, even. You're welcome.

keilmillerjr

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2019, 04:56:18 pm »
Golden tee was known is usa to go from some ridiculously tiny monitor in 1990 (13?) up to a 29.

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2019, 05:22:27 pm »
25'' monitors were indeed more common than 29'' ones in Europe and Japan as well during the early 90's despite what I said. From 1994 onwards (and the "CRT era" at least lasted 10 years more in the arcades), it's the other way round, though, at least in Japan, which I thought we already were past this phase of realizing that it's the region of reference in regards to anything arcade-related worth referencing beyond the early Atari.

What are you talking about? The region of reference is North America, because I'm the one who made the reference in the first place and I specifically typed "North America." As for Japan, we got their games, but we didn't get their weird sit-down plastic and tin "candy cabinets." We got some of their 1980s plywood upright cabinets, such as the ones from Nintendo (Donkey Kong, Popeye, Punch-Out, etc.), all of which had 19" monitors (usually made by Sanyo; some made by Sharp), but by the time the JAMMA era was in full swing, Japanese games were usually sent to North American distributors in kit form and installed in generic American wooden upright cabinets, such as the ones made by Dynamo. Most of those cabinets were designed for 19" or 25" monitors.

Quote
But OK; the US stuck to 19 and 25'' if you say so. The latter is still a bit too big for proper perception at ~30 cm.

I've played on plenty of 25" monitor arcade cabinets, and they are perfectly fine. And the viewing distance is not "~30 cm", it's about twice that distance.

Quote
New users, especially those in Europe -- think about ergonomics before fetichism.

Neither ergonomics nor fetishism have anything to do with anything in this thread, plus, I'm pretty sure that "new users, especially those in Europe" have not elected you as their official spokesman.

Quote
A good, 25~29'' RGB TV set will do wonders for some serious gaming, which I believe that's what you're after if you're reading the Groovy MAME forum. You can rotate it easily for verticality when needed, even.

I'm running MAME in a Dynamo HS-1 cabinet (Street Fighter games only, since it's a Street Fighter II: The World Warrior cabinet), which has a 19" RGB CRT arcade monitor. When I first started playing SFII: TWW in the arcades in 1991, they were usually in Dynamo HS-1 (19" monitor) or HS-5 (25" monitor) cabinets, which are the two cabinets that the U.S. kit was specifically designed for. The only advantage of the HS-5 is that the cabinet is about 2 inches wider than an HS-1, which gives a little more elbow room for two players.

As for "doing wonders for some serious gaming," the size of the CRT and the type of video signal that's being fed to it doesn't matter with regard to how well you can play the game, as long as it's not ridiculously tiny or ridiculously huge relative to the viewing distance, and is clear enough to see what's going on in the game. The only advantage of RGB over lesser quality video signals is that it looks better.

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You're welcome.

Say what?

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2019, 05:55:29 pm »
Golden tee was known is usa to go from some ridiculously tiny monitor in 1990 (13?) up to a 29.

Most dedicated Golden Tee cabinets used 25" monitors, and the newest CRT-based ones used 27" monitors, such as this dedicated Golden Tee 2005 (Wells-Gardner D9200):



If there's any such thing as a dedicated Golden Tee with a 13" monitor, it would have been a cabaret version, though the cabaret versions that I know of used 19" monitors. Of course, when it comes to conversion kits instead of dedicated cabinets, well, the arcade operator can install it in any cabinet with any monitor size he can get ahold of.

Recapnation

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2019, 06:23:27 pm »
What are you talking about?

Nothing at all. You win whatever it is, bro.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2019, 04:05:31 am »
In Europe IIRC arcades originally had 19 and 25 cabinets, fewer 29 or superior, those came later during the 90's.

And TVs were available in 13, 21, 25, 29, bigger than 29 were very rare.

25 were in fewer supply for some reason, but the best for size/convenience ratio, much lighter and easy to handle than most 29's.

I don't like the late Sony's with flat tubes (horrible geometry) and chassis that sometimes limit refresh to 58Hz at the lowest.

A good 25, a Groovy PC, a stick, and you're good, awesome even if that's not a cabinet, that, can come later.  :P

----

EDIT: I'd say put that trio on a simplistic sturdy furni-structure, adjustable-enough that it allows you to match the measurements or existing arcade cabinets, and you got yourself what's technically most of what a real arcade cab is (the same in regards to display+emulation), for like a small fraction of the hassle and price of building a cab from scratch, and also a fraction of buying and refurbishing a genuine cabinet.

What's missing is that simple 'furni-structure', I've alrady though in the past that it would be awesome if we could buy a simple steel skeleton (in kit and why not even foldable) designed for that purpose. Would be better than going Ikea style.
Nothing would forbid to build around it later to achieve a more complete repro of an actual cab.

I so understand OP, a least for someone living in Europe since we have those scart TVs, it's something that naturally comes to mind, and if you think about it a process that embraces a much friendlier learning curve for complete noobs (or broke people alike).
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 06:37:01 am by schmerzkaufen »
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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2019, 07:43:52 am »
Too bad you didn't know me by then (or did you?).

Not yet, it was a bit later when I landed at Postback.

While I certainly agree cabinets are fetish, I want to clarify that I don't disregard cabinets because of that. It's exactly their strength as fetish, totemic objects what attracts people into the hobby, at least that was my case. Once they're in, it's our responsibility to guide them so that at least they don't commit abominations like mounting an LCD monitor in a cabinet.

So that takes me to the point I disagree with OP's: even if you can mantain that a desktop setup is easier for a beginner, it is actually the cabinet object what attracts the beginner. So no cabinet, no beginner (in most cases). Then, this beginner may become a convert.

There are notable counter examples, but I believe my point still holds.

I guess it highly depends on the gate each one takes to enter the rabbit hole. People that reach from the home systems world, typically trying to achieve the perfect connection, then rediscovering emulation, RGB, etc. will probably arrive faster or more naturally to the bare-bones desktop CRT setup.

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schmerzkaufen

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2019, 09:51:43 am »
Once they're in, it's our responsibility to guide them so that at least they don't commit abominations like mounting an LCD monitor in a cabinet.

 ::) no it's not necessarily an 'abomination', for instance some 27" that will fit in a japanese candy cab are compatible with CRT_EMudriver or VRR and perform very well, not like the crap of the early years of flat panels that people salvage or buy for 10 bucks.
Then the choice of scaling/filtering etc are many and sometimes subtle and even unknown to the majority, people who apply basic fake scanlines effects or greasy shaders on default settings, on top of having a bad flat panel, lack the quality to judge.

Of course, it goes without saying that you can't have something that competently replaces a CRT, but with a flat panel you don't necessarily get an 'abomination', nope.

For people who are in a situation where a replacement RGB monitor is a big price and shipping issue (freck, it can cost up to 1000 bucks to get a fresh arcade monitor to your place, and with accidents sometimes), then opting for a flat panel isn't such a bad move, assuming they study the options and possibilities carefully.

So that takes me to the point I disagree with OP's: even if you can mantain that a desktop setup is easier for a beginner, it is actually the cabinet object what attracts the beginner. So no cabinet, no beginner (in most cases). Then, this beginner may become a convert.

I do not agree with that also, for most people I know and have known since the early 2000's including of course cabs and pcb owners, what always mattered to achieve in priority for most when it comes to emulation, was accuracy (graphics looks, lag, refresh, etc)
The first reason I've always heard invoked by pcb owners to not let pcb's go to replace by emulation has always been that it wasn't good enough (except some would be mildly okay with advancemame back then, but not many)
And the first goal and discussion topic I've always heard the global majority desire and aim for is accuracy.

The question of having or not everything that's around the core of it all (the cab furniture, coinage, panels, audio, marquees, chair whatever) has always been treated as secondary or kind of a different side-discipline.

The only ones who in priority cared for cabs in their full glory were specifically the cabs collectors, people building game rooms, and no need to say those were always relatively few considering the space and money that's required to live the hobby at that scale.

I guess it highly depends on the gate each one takes to enter the rabbit hole. People that reach from the home systems world, typically trying to achieve the perfect connection, then rediscovering emulation, RGB, etc. will probably arrive faster or more naturally to the bare-bones desktop CRT setup.

That's the probem I have with this community, it seems the core members have very fixed ideas on what's right and what's wrong and that noobs need to be directed to those nearly religious commandments, and proposing alternative ideas or trying to shed a different light on realities those kind of 'rules' ignore, quickly generates relatively strong negative reactions, even ostracism.

Too radical stances actually drive noobs away. some alternatives and compromises are actually acceptable and not destructive, worth being defended, I wish you guys would realize one day.

That's kind of what mamedev have long been lost into, exaggerated ideological conservationsm/radicalism, isolationism and therefore sclerosis that drives people away, then actually benefits those who more deserve to be called 'traitors to the cause and sinners' like RetroArch, Arcade 1-Up, Crapcom stick, whatever dealers of snake oil.
There's something I call the 'Linux paradox' that I could just as well call the 'MAME paradox', which unfortunately is a common phenomenon in the FOSS world.
I won't enter into details now but anytone should see what I'm talking about.

Well, what I first though joining here and discovering Groovy was that this place is free from that curse, but I guess I was at lest a bit, partly wrong.
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But I shrug at popularity issues, because I know I've put my finger on a real longstanding problem, and I care about the topic so bleeeeh!  :P
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fuchi_jeg

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2019, 11:02:38 am »
Anytime you get into the deep recesses of the internet where elite nerds live you will always find the elite  of the elite who shame and browbeat the new guys because they wont assimilate and adhere to the commandments that are written in stone. They are here, they are at shmups forum, every forum has them, and I dont know why they go out of their way to drive people away. 

benarcade

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2019, 11:37:24 am »
"the global majority desire and aim for is accuracy"

Ultimately, yes - after you slap together your first MAME setup using a PC and a keyboard.

Also, it seems as though accuracy is weighted differently for each person - I see a lot of people who must have a CRT but don't care that their buttons and joysticks use micro-switches (gah!). I also think a cabinet of some kind is crucial for the experience, because it adds a level of isolation and focus - immersion in the game - that you can't get in an open-air setup (and authenticity).

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2019, 12:14:05 pm »
Also, it seems as though accuracy is weighted differently for each person - I see a lot of people who must have a CRT but don't care that their buttons and joysticks use micro-switches (gah!).

Your statement carries the unwarranted assumption that people end up with microswitches only due to a lack of care. Countless original arcade machines came with microswitch buttons and joysticks, and anyone playing those games would want microswitch buttons and joysticks if they care about authenticity. If you had a 100% original Donkey Kong machine for example, would you swap out the microswitch buttons and joystick that it came with from the factory for leaf switch ones?

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2019, 12:14:51 pm »
::) no it's not necessarily an 'abomination

To be clear, I have total respect for a desktop setup on LCD. I was specifically speaking of putting an LCD in a cabinet.

Maybe "abomination" is too general, I mean it's definitely something fake. And in that sense I'd agree OP when he says it's pretentious.

In a scale of fakeness, from more genuine to more fake, we'd have:

1.- Plastic plants (cf. Fake Plastic Trees)
2.- Inflatable dolls
3.- Arcade cabinets with LCD monitors


Quote
Too radical stances actually drive noobs away. some alternatives and compromises are actually acceptable and not destructive, worth being defended, I wish you guys would realize one day.

Real life is already full of compromises. I claim the right to be dogmatic on forums.

The intelligent attitude is not to take us too seriously.


Quote
I know I'm disliked around here and seen kind of like a nuisance and a parasite,

Nah, you know that's not true and you're overacting.

But I have to say that people like you are also part of the problem that you're unfairly accusing us of. You have already the knowledge to write some of those groovy-for-dummies guides you'd like to have found when you started, in a language accesible for the laymen as you like to say.
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donluca

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2019, 03:12:58 pm »
On a scale of fakeness, from more genuine to more fake, we'd have:

1.- Plastic plants (cf. Fake Plastic Trees)
2.- Inflatable dolls
3.- Arcade cabinets with LCD monitors

Thank you for providing me a nice quote to put in my signature.
On a scale of fakeness, from more genuine to more fake, we'd have:

1.- Plastic plants (cf. Fake Plastic Trees)
2.- Inflatable dolls
3.- Arcade cabinets with LCD monitors

Recapnation

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2019, 04:08:15 pm »
Quote
I'd say put that trio on a simplistic sturdy furni-structure, adjustable-enough that it allows you to match the measurements or existing arcade cabinets,

You can improve standard arcade cabinet measurements in many ways -- you don't need the monitor bearing all the vibrations of a hardcore KOF session, you don't need to play upstanding, and you don't ever need the contact of your gamemate's elbow. Obvious stuff yet not enough to drown the lure, it seems.



Quote
I also think a cabinet of some kind is crucial for the experience, because it adds a level of isolation and focus - immersion in the game - that you can't get in an open-air setup (and authenticity).

It's all in your mind, really. You find many people even placing marquees, vinyls and generally the ugliest stuff they find you just can't unsee when playing. How's that "immersive"?



« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 04:23:03 pm by Recapnation »

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2019, 04:47:32 pm »
you don't need the monitor bearing all the vibrations of a hardcore KOF session, you don't need to play upstanding, and you don't ever need the contact of your gamemate's elbow. Obvious stuff yet not enough to drown the lure, it seems.

Ahhh... you must be getting old. That IS the allure. ;)

Standing up, beating the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of a cabinet while well and truly in your mate's personal space bubble is the REAL way to play.

If you think different then you're starring down the barrel of future filled with mobility scooters, sensible shoes and his and her's twin beds. ;)
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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2019, 05:41:21 pm »
Real life is already full of compromises. I claim the right to be dogmatic on forums.

The intelligent attitude is not to take us too seriously.

You know what? I think I've been way more enthusiastic for GroovyMAME than even you its developer, and that is the problem.
There were several leads you invoked, about frame_slice, about automatizing frame_delay+vsync_offset (I've been crossing fingers for the latter but it didn't escape me that you deliberately avoided talking about it again every time I brought the topic), several features development-related things for the future, that you talked about but then never again, leaving those topics to an ellipsis and interrogations points.
I mean without saying if you had any visibility, progress in sight, hopes whatever, or even just if you thought of not doing/dropping because too complicated or you had no time. Zero hints.

You know it's normal if you mention potential features development stuff like that, that users will actually wait for news, right? I mean even news of a feature not making it, cancellation, which is fine too nobody blames, it is better than no news you know.
I've seen some threads with some dev action pop but too technical for me to really understand, asking as usual only brought a more enigmatic short reply (getscanline thread, most info about future development I've had in like a year and I didn't get what was going on, like people are 'yay!' and me '...')

Quote
Nah, you know that's not true and you're overacting.

But I have to say that people like you are also part of the problem that you're unfairly accusing us of. You have already the knowledge to write some of those groovy-for-dummies guides you'd like to have found when you started, in a language accesible for the laymen as you like to say.

I don't think I'm overreacting and you know it, I'll give you examples among others; you know the issue I've had that I couldn't use ArcadeOSD for getting the necessary modeline, I had to ask you three times over several months for a solution and every you acted like I was pumping your vital oxygen, the reluctance was palpable, and for just that little answer (ponting at an app I could use) I was stuck for many months unable to reuse the LCD guide nor recommend it to people who were asking me.
There's been more cases like this and so please explain to me how with the little I know (all I know is the LCD dynamic and static methods, that's all I can write about), how I am expected to write a new form of guides, knowing that if I'm in trouble and need assistance/explanation/correction, the person most competent to help...is reluctant to?
Or like just being blanked in PM even shortly after having made a donation in honest gratitude, and being given your barely implied feeling that my thing here is to manipulate you into doing stuff (the classic software dev 'I wont be your slave damned user' paranoia reaction)
Or like being treated like I'm cute with my interest for LCDs or thinking of improving accessibility for people who have diffculties using Groovy, cute for defending its merits and helping people where I wasn't asked anything by you or Recap, while you guys don't actually take any of that seriously and likely holding back saying frankly that it's a bother because LCDs are crap and I'm wasting mine and yours time?

Honesly if you couldn't go on developing the features you yourself talked about - whatever the reasons - or if you thought I was invading, and basically what you were really hoping for was developing an escape route feature so that you could finally give mamedev something politically acceptable (zero latency in VRR) to lay off Groovy's development (which would be a mistake I'm 100% sure bc 'commercial vrr has become mainstream and accessible' is a very poor excuse stnding on a wobbly basis)...then why didn't you say so, honestly, much much earlier ?  :dunno

I would have just said "okay I understand thanks a lot for what you've done see ya around" and stopped waiting/hoping uselessly for those features developments and stopped bothering you guys here at BYOAC.
I would also have told people around to not insist too much with Groovy instead of spending hours and hours doing support for them, defending its superior principles etc.
Basically I totally respect people who are direct, frank, blunt and honest, but I have a lot of communication issues with people who avoid at all cost talking, avoid answering directly or give empty words in place, and avoid speaking their mind/heart etc. because it creates crappy sitiations like this.

I was really super extra enthusiast last year, you helped me a lot and made Groovy advance on the flat panels topic, and I was genuinely very, very grateful believe it or not. For all that: eternal thanks really.

But really this is how I've experienced 2019, he impression you gave me:
"sigh I don't want to communicate about Groovy development I have no time for this I just wish I could be done with it already"
and regarding my questions and interventions;
"argh not schmerzkaufen questions/rants again, i'll pass/ignore or drop a couple words hopefully he won't insist"

And this is also basically the vibe BYOAC gives overall anyway, I'm probably around the same age as you guys, yet here I've been feeling like I was standing in a retirement home in company of grouches unwilling to hear about anything of the outside world, change anything, nor communicate with anyone about anything but the routine and hope they'll be left in peace for the next round of whatever cards game they play while reminiscing about the past.
:oldman
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Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2019, 06:05:19 pm »
You need to see a mental health specialist.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2019, 06:18:22 pm »
F* you Mike, with a cactus dipped in tabasco, and I'm not talking with you here anyway. You're really an arsehole no way we'd ever have a drink ya c*

---

If Calamity had been able to speak in anything but silence and enigmas, invoking possiblities then leaving things suspended up in mystery air, and me holding my breath like an idiot for like a year, then him now casually practically ridiculing my centers of interest for Groovy and likely adopting the old vrr excuse mamedev wrote many years ago, he wouldn't have pushed his once most enthusiastic supporter into exasperation.

I just expected intelligible communication, not permanent elusiveness, and not being ignored or ostracized like that ffs. Just - normal - yeses or noes or even a 'f* off*.
Being an end user looking up GroovyMAME is like trying to watch chinese shadow theatre in too low back-light, and other people in the audience are either as confused as you, or frowning like asking "wtf are you doing here stop wasting time or make efforts to watch this, this is not your place".  :banghead:

EDIT: I just want to know:

- is this ever happening, even just the vsync_offset slider, it doesn't have to be the full auto thing: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,158665.msg1668654.html#msg1668654
vsync offset alone is like nearly half of the whole ordeal of using groovy on a flat panel, i've expereicned it as well as struggled hell to help other people set that. so of course i've been waiting eagerly.

- if after all it is not happening, then is "get a vrr setup" groovymame's answer, and then not necessary anymore to wait for a solution for vsync_offset ?

And that's it. Maybe you could even have answered that by a yes or no last year, how would i know you rarely speak anything I can relate to, and I would have left you, everyone, in peace with only occasional visits. Also would have not lobbied for Groovy nearly as much as I did if the answer had been 'no'.
Simple updates on development from time-to-time for end users who can't understand complicated dev language threads, and need to know once in a while if they're actually waiting for something or if the dev has been going a completely different route without telling... such updates in layman or at leat general terms are actually damn important.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 06:53:17 pm by schmerzkaufen »
GroovyMAME oddball LCD user: W7 64, viewsonic vx3211-mh, i5-4690k @4.1GHz, Rx 570, crt_emudriver 2.0b15

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2019, 07:17:36 pm »
I apologize you are completely rational. My mistake.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2019, 07:38:53 pm »
why would I when I can just connect the stick directly over usb and play in my sofa???
because playing streetfighter like that is rubbish?
most games are designed to be played on a cabinet the correct way..
who wants to sit on a couch juggling a joystick on their lap when they can have a cabinet holding everything in place that 'just works' all the time?

I have 2 arcade machines (vertical and horizontal) which were both fairly easy to set up, and i have no special skills or training in anything.
Everything is on the internet to see how others have done it (right or wrong) and i went from there.. VERY happy with how they have turned out...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 07:43:46 pm by Sledge »

yotsuya

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2019, 10:23:15 am »
F* you Mike, with a cactus dipped in tabasco, and I'm not talking with you here anyway. You're really an arsehole no way we'd ever have a drink ya c*

---

***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2019, 10:32:14 am »
The Tabasco will at least make entry easier.

yotsuya

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2019, 11:15:27 am »
The Tabasco will at least make entry easier.
I hope your arsehole can take it.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2019, 11:21:06 am »
Quote
You're really an arsehole no way we'd ever have a drink ya c*

Unfortunately we will never find out. :'(

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2019, 11:27:08 am »
should we blame OP for posting the trollest topic ever ?  :dizzy: Just kidding ! He's not to blame of how most of us have gotten in a crusade to defend his/her point of view ...

Guyz, seriously, this is getting way too far ... I'm sad I'll never get the opportunity to push Recapnation with my elbow in a Mortal Kombat fight to avoind being ridiclulised by a babality  ;D No harm pal, I know what pain Magician Lord is, I could never pass the 1st stage with the basic 4 credits from NeoGeo AES the very first time I played it when I was a teenager :) Everyone his way of playing at his cab, no one is wrong, no one is right :)

This is just gaming, having fun, enjoying every bit of the cab we've built on our own, or one you'd restore yourself. This doesn't derserve the flaming I've been reading for the last few days.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2019, 02:35:45 pm »
Playing a versus game as you participate in an elbow contest is a wrong way of playing a versus game much like playing Magician Lord with 4 credits is a wrong way of playing Magician Lord. This is of course dogmatic, but a game without dogmas is not game, that's called a toy. And, if you ask me, that's exactly the opposite way an arcade game should be understood. Totally off-topic, even uncalled-for if you will on this forum, but if it serves to save just one lost soul who may be reading this, why not.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2019, 04:21:02 pm »
This is of course dogmatic, but a game without dogmas is not game, that's called a toy. And, if you ask me, that's exactly the opposite way an arcade game should be understood.

Appreciate your stance. It's interesting to hear how others enjoy the hobby (basically, my way is the opposite of yours: the more ambient chaos, the better! That's how arcade gaming was for me as a kid.)

You reminded me of a friend of mine who is basketball obsessed but he hates all the rituals and hype that go with the game. For him, the ideal setting would be a stadium, two teams and just him sitting in the audience. No distractions.

Again, the opposite would be true for me but I respect the purity of his vision.
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Recapnation

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2019, 06:14:23 pm »
Quote
Appreciate your stance. It's interesting to hear how others enjoy the hobby (basically, my way is the opposite of yours: the more ambient chaos, the better!

More ambient chaos means more disturbances which potentially affect your playing, right?

Your interest then doesn't reside first and foremost in your performance nor how the game itself performs beyond a superficial layer, right?

You could then swap Groovy MAME for baseline MAME without noticing, may it be?

(Honest questions; I promise.)




Quote
That's how arcade gaming was for me as a kid.)

Did you never try to "beat" a game? Just... enjoy the "chaos"?

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2019, 06:29:03 pm »
Paradroid likes to have fun when he is playing.

Video games are supposed to be fun.


Recapnation

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #74 on: November 20, 2019, 07:32:55 pm »
This kind of fun, you mean?


Paradroid

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #75 on: November 21, 2019, 02:37:30 am »
More ambient chaos means more disturbances which potentially affect your playing, right?

Mate, I'm good though: can happily chat to a mate about his marital woes, drink a beer and still clock Street Fighter. ;)

Your interest then doesn't reside first and foremost in your performance nor how the game itself performs beyond a superficial layer, right?

I can see how you might make that assumption but you're very wrong: I'm obsessive over every aspect and this hobby has led me to some strange places (e.g. home made convergences strips, DIY low-resistance digital potentiometers to automatically change vertical frame size when switching resolutions, generating .inis for each game with ReplayGain determined volume adjustments, RGB-modding TVs, cap kitting, etc.) in pursuit of perfection.

That's the craft side though: when I actually sit down to truly game, that all goes out the window. It's like difference between practicing your scales and stepping onto a stage to perform.

You could then swap Groovy MAME for baseline MAME without noticing, may it be?

Haha! No chance... just because I don't approach gaming in a zen-like, chess tournament way doesn't mean I'm not completely anal retentive when it comes to getting my machines looking and working like magic.

Did you never try to "beat" a game? Just... enjoy the "chaos"?

For sure!!! And the chaos enhanced those experiences e.g. 10 or so guys behind my mate and I cheering the first time we cracked Golden Axe! We were heroes. You can't get that buzz home alone.

Sure, golfers need silence to put but video games call for some hoo-ha.

I can certainly see things your way but, for me, arcade gaming is intrinsically linked to socialising and letting your hair down.
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Paradroid

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #76 on: November 21, 2019, 02:42:56 am »
Paradroid likes to have fun when he is playing.

Cheers! I'll take that beer if the other guy isn't going to drink it...
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Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #77 on: November 21, 2019, 04:37:17 am »
If you are ever in the Chicago area that beer is yours.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #78 on: November 25, 2019, 06:56:39 pm »
not my point at all.

Just saying for newcomers, Id rather advise them to go bare system: RGB capable tv (component ones are probably acceptable too using an vga to component converter), a PC, old ati card, a rgb to scart cable, usb fightstick, and some time to spend on the software setup. This will give them a good enough thing that purists will not acknoledge as a proper arcade machine but theyll still be able to play most games at the right resolution and refresh rate.

Anything involving a real cab will be more complicated and most people will probably encounter issues at either woodworking, electric/electronic stuff or computer literacy because fewer people will be good at the 3 of them, unless they buy a brand new Acrade cab, have it setup by a pro given they are willing to spend a lot more.

SCART TVs are effectively non-existent in North America, and CRTs with component (YPbPr) inputs aren't common, given that component only became a thing after the DVD format took off in the late 1990s / early 2000s, and even then, it was originally only in high-end TVs, which aren't as common as low-end TVs. On top of that, not all CRT TVs with component inputs will sync to a 15 KHz-over-component signal, because component was seen as a way of allowing for progressive scan from DVD players, which is a 31 KHz signal. The TV manufacturers figured that if you wanted 15 KHz, composite or S-video was good enough. It wasn't until the last few years of CRT production that lower end CRT TVs started appearing with component inputs, and fortunately, those usually will sync to 15 KHz-over-component (mainly because 15 KHz is as high as they can go to begin with). Furthermore, RGB-to-component transcoders tend to be not cheap and are also often problematic.

In 2019, in North America, there is no readily accessible path to natively displaying a 15 KHz RGB video signal on a CRT. You either have to find a broadcast or presentation monitor, neither of which are common, or an arcade monitor, which isn't common either, relatively speaking. Or, if you don't mind a small display (12" or so), some old home computer monitors, such as from Commodore, are 15 KHz RGB capable. Of course, those aren't common either.

Ironically, the cheapest and easiest way of doing it for most people in North America is probably to find an old generic JAMMA cabinet (like a Dynamo HS-1) which already has an arcade monitor in it. The cabinet will probably be beat up and the monitor will probably have screen burn and need new electrolytic capacitors at the very least. On the plus side, it provides an authentic arcade game playing experience and you can easily run real JAMMA arcade boardsets in it if you want to.

I wouldn't bother with a MAME TV setup even if RGB TVs were common around here. For that experience, MAME on a regular PC monitor is good enough. Being able to play the games on an arcade cabinet with an arcade monitor is the very thing that makes the hassle worth it in the first place. Also, joysticks aren't worth using IMO unless they are mounted to something that doesn't move, such as the control panel of a 300-pound arcade cabinet.

Also, you mentioned sitting on your couch. Most people's TVs are a fair distance from their couch (i.e., far more than ~20 inches away), and that greatly reduces the perceived benefit of RGB. Unless you're close enough to clearly see the texture created by the shadow mask, it doesn't feel like an arcade game.

This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp. These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res. Sony Trinitrons with component are still be regularly dumped on curbs and given away on Craigslist. Ebay is stuffed with deals on CRT arcade monitors and TV's with component.

As for whether people should buy a cab, that's not something for others to decide or debate. Anyone that decides to buy a cab knows what they are getting already. It's a simple fact that it is common for (even fairly modest) houses in America to have large basements and garages. If you have the room and the cash, there is really no reason not to get one, if you want one. What else would an arcade fan put in a large basement?

I have come to realize that the controls are one of the most important aspects for bringing the arcade experience home. Outputting games to a CRT in native res matters too but the experience is not authentic or particularly enjoyable if you end up playing Operation Wolf and Daytona with a mouse and joypad. Having the right controls and interface is everything.

A large portion of popular arcade favorites are dedicated driving, shooting and flight sym cabs. The arcade experience for those games can not be satisfactorily replicated without a cab. A mame PC and a Joypad just doesn't do it for me.







MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #79 on: November 26, 2019, 07:24:37 am »
This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp.

There's exactly one model of CRT arcade monitor that you can buy from Happ and it is over $700 shipped. I have yet to see any evidence that they are newly manufactured rather than new old stock.

Quote
These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res.

They are among the worst CRT options for the vast majority of arcade games (if you want them to look the way they did in the arcades), which used 15 KHz monitors (not multi-sync monitors) with a standard spherical (curved) picture tube (not a flat tube). Multi-sync monitors have a finer dot pitch than 15 KHz-only monitors, which by itself makes them look wrong when displaying 15 KHz games; the flat tube makes them look even more wrong, and the aperture grille that goes along with flat tubes (rather than a conventional shadow mask) makes them look even more, more wrong. The only worse RGB CRT option is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz.

Quote
Sony Trinitrons with component are still be regularly dumped on curbs and given away on Craigslist. Ebay is stuffed with deals on CRT arcade monitors and TV's with component.

Trinitrons look wrong for the same reason the Makvision Tri-Sync looks wrong, i.e., flat tube (or cylindrical tube, depending on which version of a Trinitron you get) and aperture grille. Plus, if it's a model of Trinitron that can sync to 31 KHz, it has the finer dot pitch problem too. Also, as I've already mentioned, CRT TVs with component inputs are not nearly as common as ones without it. The best component-input TV to get if you want 15 KHz arcade games to look like they originally did, is one of the lower end models, i.e., 15 KHz-only, standard spherical tube (which also inherently means shadow mask rather than aperture grille, and relatively coarse dot pitch). Unfortunately those might be even harder to find, because component inputs didn't start appearing on lower end CRT TVs until rather late in the game.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 08:10:39 am by MaximRecoil »