My take on arcade emulation.

[oliver]

Hello people.

I just wanted to share my view on how to go about setting up an arcade emulation machine (using groovymame and crt emu drivers obviously).

I have been talking to a few people, mostly beginners and I often see they usually go for something that i consider too complicated:
Mostly they focus on the cabinet itself (ditching a computer and whatever display the have available), which I find too complicated and not even practical. They need to think about the panel, most of the time some woodwork is involved if you want to reuse an old cab, you need to wire everything up properly, use usb controllers and so on.

My take on it is if you start, the best bet is to go with a simple TV (scart is obviously better) with a decent computer and an old supported ati card and a USB arcade stick or two. A pair of speakers and thats it. Set up win7, then crt emudriver, then mame, then Mala and done...15khz goodness.

I just dont understand why you would go for a full cab....to me its only going to raise all sorts of annoying restrictions.

I am running a trinitron tv  and a I5 4570 sff pc sitting nearby and using a diy dsub15 to scart cable that i made out of 2 vga and scart cables ( I think an UMSA is also good) and 2 usb sticks directly connected to the pc that I can easily move around without the hassle of a heavy cab.

Or maybe my view is outdated i dont know...

[schmerzkaufen]

(wrong forum for this thread maybe)

Personally I agree with you but probably a lot of people ultimately want the full package, and some see doing a first 'naked' setup before that as a waste of time/effort/money (tho lots of the parts can be reused)

Dunno how the lack of SCART in America and Asia influence their choices also.

TBH I won't be making a full DIY cab ever, finally decided that it's not fitting for my home and habits. I always need modularity and mobility.

However I might source a Virtua Stick Pro one of those days, for the experience because it's cool AF and make it my 'portable cabinet' to use with with all my supergun, Groovy, consoles etc, whether in front of a CRT or a flat panel whatever. 

[oliver]

Being myself from France makes sourcing scart tv much easier even if they are getting genocide due to lcd taking over everywhere here now.
Still, I think going for "the full package" is just asking for trouble.
Most of the builds I have seen using full cabs are just plain ugly and ridiculous with more bezel than actual screen real estate to me.
As for the sticks, i have been using a Namco ps1 arcade stick and a tatunoko wii stick with usb adapters and they have been very good. I would not even think of going to a cabinet.

[Calamity]

You're probably right. But that's the view of something with experience.

To me, the process of getting a real cabinet in my house, back in 2007, is one I keep great memories of. I was going through a lot of sh*t at work at the time. I needed to focus on something rewarding and had been reading for months about MAME cabinets. So one day I rented a van with friends and drove 200 km to bring three cabinets home. For the following months I had little time to mess with it but just seeing it in my living room when I went in or out of home put a smile on my face. Like saying: "I don't care, I have a cabinet, f*ck everyone".

Then of course you learn your initial emulation solution is crap, you try to figure out why. Some of your control panel buttons are stuck. Vertical games don't display of feel correct. Installing ScummVM in the cabinet was a terrible idea. The joysticks you have are not ideal for the games you actually want to play. You need to add an internal shelf but you suck at woodwork. Basically you discover the physical cabinet is an initiation, fetish object. Then you start putting more effort on correct emulation and understand that things like vinyls, hiding Windows or animated frontends are secondary.

[Mike A]

Build a full cab with an arcade monitor. That is the real experience. Everything else is just pretending.

[oliver]

For a newcomer I would strongly advise against it. Even as a more experienced user actually.

I used to own a cab too and it was a pain to deal with. The only real benefit I see of a real arcade over a tv is mainly the picture controls provided by the monitor, I understand the tradeof.
Apart from this, I much prefer the flexibility of a simple setup using a tv and usb sticks, and since I use an emulation PC and not genuine pcb, it looks fine enough.
To me it is the other way around: wanting a real cab is pretentious, but sure you can grab an Astro city and that is certainly better.
Just wanted to share my impressions to spare the hassle to others, letting them know it can be done easily unless they make the wrong decisions.

[Mike A]

I built my MAME cab, and I haven't had to mess with it after the first week of strangers using it. The cab runs without complaint every time I fire it up.

Pretentious? ---display unending love for my bottom---.

[schmerzkaufen]

For a newcomer I would strongly advise against it. Even as a more experienced user actually.

That's the only point I would agree on; lots of this stuff is just extremely hard for the majority, even just going around learning to build a basic working GroovyMAME setup is quite daunting and indeed can provide hellish times if things go wrong.
So a full cab is just several times more stuff to learn and do.

Many regulars in this relatively ancient and small community have above-average technical and computer skills, some are even full-fledged technicians, engineers, developers, and trust me it's a demographics that always, ALWAYS denies the obvious skills gap fact between them and the crushing majority of people in society, and that it's not a gap that not anyone can close with 'effort, will, and patience', because a lot of the required skills and knowledge are only acquired with time and training, but not the likes to learn how to make noodles necklaces or play UNO, the likes ONLY people who've had computers and machines since they were tweens/teenagers, or studied/trained/worked in a technical/computer field actually possess.
We're talking decades of difference.
Sure SOME n00bs manage to close the gap if they're at least slightly enlighted amateurs, or go through intense time/money investment going non-stop through trial-and-error with frequent support begging, but today I realize those successful n00bs represent only about 1/10 attempting newcomers, which you could expand to maybe 2/10, 2.5/10 if you include the semi-successes and halfway dropouts.

So I think it's good advice to direct most n00bs who very likely aren't from the geek/nerd niche demographics, to the simplest and most straightforward solutions first:

- In Europe most SCART TV sets are indeed no different from a 15khz arcade monitor, they're still sourceable for cheap if not free.
Going with that and a sure-working PC build for Groovy (no APU or transcoding asking-for-trouble hardware), plus pre-made VGA>Scart cable or UMSA, are the ideal '1st build for 15khz baby'. I might even add: go W7 if it's a dedicated build that will stay offline.

- In the US it's tougher if you want a RGBs CRT you have to seek either an arcade monitor or a broadcast one, though correct me if I'm wrong but some RGB>YUV transcoders work well for consumer sets that feature a Component in (?)

- then of course an decent USB arcade stick easily moddable with 'pro' parts.

For the already experienced and skilled crowd this may sound like 'too easy' or a waste of time and money that would be better used going directly for the full-fledged experience, but for the majority of poor weak little n00bs I think it's the best way of acquiring an experience without crashing miserably due to a too-brutal learning curve.

[Mike A]

I have no technical or trades background at all. I am part owner of a wholesale company. I built my first cab a long time ago. I had to borrow a circular saw. I had no router. I had a plug in drill and some hand tools.

I found the Lucian plans online. I built a decent looking cab. It wasn't difficult. Using a keyboard encoder these days is not much more difficult than using usb sticks. I think some of you guys severely overstate how

difficult this stuff is.

[Mike A]

People get themselves into trouble when they want to do all of the unnecessary stuff right out of the gate.
They want to light their controls up like a Christmas Tree.
They want front end animations and videos and all kinds of nonsense.
They obsess over hiding any evidence of windows. Nobody even knows my cab runs windows. It is like magic. I turn it on before people arrive.
All of that stuff can be cool(usually not)...later on. Just get a cab running with a proper CRT, controls and emulation. The rest is just optional window dressing.

[oliver]

My post is more about the fact newbies tend to focus too much on the cab when it is actually not strictly required and it actually increases the chance of issues.
In Europe finding a scart crt tv will be easier, and grabbing a proper arcade monitor will be harder than in the US i beleve.

The total cost might not even come that far off of an Astro if they decide to go the wooden diy kit route + they will have trouble integrating a true arcade monitor inside of the cab (and dealing with supplying power to it).

Being too concerned about hiding the underlying os and adding bling is yet another mistake newbies make indeed as I think this is even more unnecessary.

[Mike A]

they will have trouble integrated a true arcade monitor inside of the cab (and dealing with supplying power to it).

If this is the kind of stuff you are going to come up with I would suggest a simpler hobby.

Powering an arcade monitor is far easier than configuring a PC with GroovyMAME.

[oliver]

You are comparing two different things. Hooking up power to a tv is easier than hooking up power to an arcade monitor.
Setting up groovymame is actually required for both full cab/tv setups and if said people cant get that running its game over for both routes.

I mean, ok, I am able to connect all the controls to a keyb encoder no problem, but why the heck would I when I can just connect the stick directly over usb and play in my sofa???

[schmerzkaufen]

I think some of you guys severely overstate how difficult this stuff is.

It's the other way around, this community is often in denial of out-there reality, it's a bit of a conservative bubble, with time that only grew more obvious for me.

It's not always a question of aiming too high with extra fluff, even the most elementary steps are often very alien to people, especially those who grew up with tech that requires zero handy/electrical experience nor tools, nor any actual computer knowledge (that's most ppl who are like under 35 if not older, that's how far away demographics are from 'old tech', and even more dramatic considering people who engaged in even moderate-skilled tech activites/learning have always been only a small portion of the population to begin)

I know this community's frequent typical reactions, regulars will line up to state the same basic message:
- I have no particular tech/IT skills!
- It's not too hard I did it
- It's your fault n00b you are the problem

But I know it's mostly BS, you have some tell you that and then later casually drop how they were making their own machines and programs in high-school back in 1995 or something. If there's one meme that fits BYOAC it is "okay boomer" 

No really, teasing aside I only agree to recommend the simplest, most straightforward short-route for the beginners as a first experience, safe, no extras at all.
Because going straight for the full thing today just doesn't fit the demographics, and not just skills-wise but also in terms of investment (also depending where you live)
So in a way...we kind of agree Mike, just not in regards to what to aim for.

If this is the kind of stuff you are going to come up with I would suggest a simpler hobby.

No they go to RetroArch instead, or buy emu-toys online like that superb Capcom stick or a 1-Up. 

n00bs who struggle are often confronted to either too laconic/short answers to their questions (skilled person provides quick answer assuming the requester is at a certain level of skills/knowledge/understanding) or so advanced they're overwhelmed.
And if the n00b loses his cool he'll be somewhat ostracized, receive the cold shoulder/silent treatment because the old dogs at some point will begin to see him as an annoyance/parasite.

To avoid that all n00bs need is the clearest, most to-the-point documentation landing point for the simplest most direct build route first, written and presented in terms and fashion that can be the most universally understood. (no talking in command lines like mamedev do, more pictures to illustrate, direction towards safest/surest hardware and sotware references in place of giving general directions, that kind of stuff)
The problem is information and communication, the recent FAQ-that-never-was dead thread is an only just more salient example of that continued malaise.

And the people best-suited to create better conditions are the most skilled, but unfortunately likely the ones who least want to do just that. 
Because that's additional work, and boring at that, but also because they long lost the ability to speak/think in layman terms.

Ideally even if they don't say it out loud, it's the same in all niche-tech-oriented communities, they would likely stay a small group between skilled-gentlemen without nervous n00bs around disturbing the peace, it's almost like a cultures clash.
Mamedev are the most vivid example of geeks/nerds going full-isolationism (don't worry BYOAC is far from that sad example, mamedev literally despise the end users base like vermin) with the consequences honest people know about.

TL;DR building a cabinet, or even a non-cab GroovyMAME setup with facultative steps/extras, should be discouraged for first-timers, or not without giving them huge red flags warnings.
Instead n00bs should be pushed to a simplest/safest basic/naked type of build solution, of which explanation is super-refined for the broadest demographics layman understanding and accessibility. Kind of a solid landing, spine, for all newcomers especially the unskilled majority
In that way, again I agree with oliver.

[Mike A]

Well. I guess I just don't agree with you that younger people are all helpless and stupid.

[oliver]

not my point at all.

Just saying for newcomers, Id rather advise them to go bare system: RGB capable tv (component ones are probably acceptable too using an vga to component converter), a PC, old ati card, a rgb to scart cable, usb fightstick, and some time to spend on the software setup. This will give them a good enough thing that purists will not acknoledge as a proper arcade machine but theyll still be able to play most games at the right resolution and refresh rate.

Anything involving a real cab will be more complicated and most people will probably encounter issues at either woodworking, electric/electronic stuff or computer literacy because fewer people will be good at the 3 of them, unless they buy a brand new Acrade cab, have it setup by a pro given they are willing to spend a lot more.

[Mike A]

Playing real arcade games on a TV with the wrong controls just sucks. I guess that doesn't matter as much if you are younger than 40.

Most people under forty don't have the real experience to compare to.

Putting your quarter up on the marquee retainer because you have the next game. Rooting through the coin return slots for spare quarters. All of the good stuff.

I guess I shouldn't argue with you. The vast majority of new people to this hobby just want something that plays a bajillion games without any regard to controls.

[Recapnation]

Dunno how the lack of SCART in America and Asia influence their choices also.

I'm sure it's a key factor.

But I'd say fetichism is even above that. I've been meaning to make an article or something for years about how standard cabs (either, Western or Japanese) are far from being the best solutions regarding ergonomics, which should be the main aspect for anybody wanting to play over half an hour, but in the meantime, we even got the mini-cab craze, so it's now a whatever.

Said that, I most likely have suggested like a dozen times on my own forum that a "semi-cab" is mandatory. Control panels (we obviously assume that proper arcade sticks are the only valid option for proper arcade play) NEED a fixed, thrust-proof state, and you aren't getting it with just placing your everyday arcade stick over a desk. Height and isolation (from the monitor) are also important, etc. etc.

So I can see why cabs are gaining popularity, especially Japanese ones if aesthetics matters in your place -- they give the impression of having everything at once, but again, the people tend to miss they're designed to save space first and foremost.

However I might source a Virtua Stick Pro one of those days, for the experience because it's cool AF and make it my 'portable cabinet' to use with with all my supergun, Groovy, consoles etc, whether in front of a CRT or a flat panel whatever. 

If you mean this:



...I have it since its release and I couldn't recommend it with the price it has reached these days. I couldn't recommend it in general, actually, since it has one of the biggest problems of Japanese cabs -- two adult players are just not comfortable with that distance. I also dislike how close stick and buttons are each other (sadly, that's a common issue with solo panels too), and, while the Seimitsu stick is great, the factory buttons are far from good and swapping them is a real pain, though I'm sure you're already aware of this.

To me, the process of getting a real cabinet in my house, back in 2007, is one I keep great memories of. I was going through a lot of sh*t at work at the time. I needed to focus on something rewarding and had been reading for months about MAME cabinets. So one day I rented a van with friends and drove 200 km to bring three cabinets home. For the following months I had little time to mess with it but just seeing it in my living room when I went in or out of home put a smile on my face. Like saying: "I don't care, I have a cabinet, f*ck everyone".

Then of course you learn your initial emulation solution is crap, you try to figure out why. Some of your control panel buttons are stuck. Vertical games don't display of feel correct. Installing ScummVM in the cabinet was a terrible idea. The joysticks you have are not ideal for the games you actually want to play. You need to add an internal shelf but you suck at woodwork. Basically you discover the physical cabinet is an initiation, fetish object.

Too bad you didn't know me by then (or did you?).

[oliver]

Playing real arcade games on a TV with the wrong controls just sucks. I guess that doesn't matter as much if you are younger than 40.

Most people under forty don't have the real experience to compare to.

Putting your quarter up on the marquee retainer because you have the next game. Rooting through the coin return slots for spare quarters. All of the good stuff.

I guess I shouldn't argue with you. The vast majority of new people to this hobby just want something that plays a bajillion games without any regard to controls.

Sure the coin mech is obviously not there, but the controls can certainly be mapped properly as long as the game is using 1 stick and 6 buttons/player which is what my stick has. mame allows for control mapping by system type, so its pretty easy to have correct controls without having to adjust them for every game. It is the same as using a keyboard encoder.

[Mike A]

its pretty easy to have correct controls without having to adjust them for every game

You do not have the correct controls. You just think you do.

We are not going to agree. That is okay.

[schmerzkaufen]

Well. I guess I just don't agree with you that younger people are all helpless and stupid.

Where-did-I-ever-state-so ?

They know different things, do stuff different ways that's all, most people in society aren't tech-savvy geeks, handy men/artisans with tools, or technicians/developers.
Yet most play games/want to play games as much and as well as possible, that at least is a constant.

It's refusing to admit before them that indeed this stuff is not quite accessible-enough to the average people and not really thought and documented-enough for laymen users, and then telling them stuff like 'find another hobby' that is somewhat condescending and taking them for idiots.

[Mike A]

I helped a child build a bar top cab.

I helped a teenager build a full sized cab. He didn't know the first thing about any of this stuff.

Anyone can learn how to do this stuff. We are not special people.

This discussion isn't going anywhere.

There is merit to keeping things simple. I completely agree.

I vehemently disagree that building a full sized cab makes things complicated.

[Recapnation]

"Full-size" is pointless and even counternarrative if you live in Europe, that's essentially the point here, I'd say.

[schmerzkaufen]

I helped a child build a bar top cab.

I helped a teenager build a full sized cab. He didn't know the first thing about any of this stuff.

Massive difference vs. doing this alone.

Anyone can learn how to do this stuff. We are not special people

Individuals with enough experience and useful knwoledge and skills in the required fields, are automatically special people.

The core membership of this community is pretty much made of such individuals...

This discussion isn't going anywhere.

...individuals who refuse to admit some facts that are as obvious as an elephant in a tunnel.
Like what most in reality know/can/have.

It's just as I said, this is what I've experienced several times in this community. It's a bit of a bubble that people try to conserve in fear it will pop.

There is merit to keeping things simple. I completely agree.

I vehemently disagree that building a full sized cab makes things complicated.

Contradictory.

For some building the cab/furniture/soldering might not be too hard, for some it's the PC+emulation part that'll go smoothly.
But you'll hardly find anyone who's a noob in the required knowledge/skills domains that will be at ease with all steps, some will even be giant hurdles.
Also from scratch it's quite a bit of money depending on what you aim for and if you don't have any of the parts and tools.
For many people it's just an unrealistic goal.

In short: more complicated.

For me this conversation is very much getting somewhere!

[Mike A]

Massive difference vs. doing this alone.

Nobody has to do it alone. There are hours and hours of YouTube videos. There are places to take woodworking classes. There are forums like this one.
You would have to be nuts to try to do it alone.

Is this some kind of European thing where only special people are capable of doing things?

[MaximRecoil]

not my point at all.

Just saying for newcomers, Id rather advise them to go bare system: RGB capable tv (component ones are probably acceptable too using an vga to component converter), a PC, old ati card, a rgb to scart cable, usb fightstick, and some time to spend on the software setup. This will give them a good enough thing that purists will not acknoledge as a proper arcade machine but theyll still be able to play most games at the right resolution and refresh rate.

Anything involving a real cab will be more complicated and most people will probably encounter issues at either woodworking, electric/electronic stuff or computer literacy because fewer people will be good at the 3 of them, unless they buy a brand new Acrade cab, have it setup by a pro given they are willing to spend a lot more.

SCART TVs are effectively non-existent in North America, and CRTs with component (YPbPr) inputs aren't common, given that component only became a thing after the DVD format took off in the late 1990s / early 2000s, and even then, it was originally only in high-end TVs, which aren't as common as low-end TVs. On top of that, not all CRT TVs with component inputs will sync to a 15 KHz-over-component signal, because component was seen as a way of allowing for progressive scan from DVD players, which is a 31 KHz signal. The TV manufacturers figured that if you wanted 15 KHz, composite or S-video was good enough. It wasn't until the last few years of CRT production that lower end CRT TVs started appearing with component inputs, and fortunately, those usually will sync to 15 KHz-over-component (mainly because 15 KHz is as high as they can go to begin with). Furthermore, RGB-to-component transcoders tend to be not cheap and are also often problematic.

In 2019, in North America, there is no readily accessible path to natively displaying a 15 KHz RGB video signal on a CRT. You either have to find a broadcast or presentation monitor, neither of which are common, or an arcade monitor, which isn't common either, relatively speaking. Or, if you don't mind a small display (12" or so), some old home computer monitors, such as from Commodore, are 15 KHz RGB capable. Of course, those aren't common either.

Ironically, the cheapest and easiest way of doing it for most people in North America is probably to find an old generic JAMMA cabinet (like a Dynamo HS-1) which already has an arcade monitor in it. The cabinet will probably be beat up and the monitor will probably have screen burn and need new electrolytic capacitors at the very least. On the plus side, it provides an authentic arcade game playing experience and you can easily run real JAMMA arcade boardsets in it if you want to.

I wouldn't bother with a MAME TV setup even if RGB TVs were common around here. For that experience, MAME on a regular PC monitor is good enough. Being able to play the games on an arcade cabinet with an arcade monitor is the very thing that makes the hassle worth it in the first place. Also, joysticks aren't worth using IMO unless they are mounted to something that doesn't move, such as the control panel of a 300-pound arcade cabinet.

Also, you mentioned sitting on your couch. Most people's TVs are a fair distance from their couch (i.e., far more than ~20 inches away), and that greatly reduces the perceived benefit of RGB. Unless you're close enough to clearly see the texture created by the shadow mask, it doesn't feel like an arcade game.

[Recapnation]

I wouldn't bother with a MAME TV setup even RGB TVs were common around here. For that experience, MAME on a regular PC monitor is good enough. Being able to play the games on an arcade cabinet with an arcade monitor is the very thing that makes the hassle worth it in the first place.

You sound precisely like if you don't actually know what an "RGB TV" is.

Also, joysticks aren't worth using IMO unless they are mounted to something that doesn't move, such as the control panel of a 300-pound arcade cabinet.

I agree there, though. (Moreover, I myself meant that with the "semi-cab" thing. Not that you need 300 pounds, anyway, but if you're building something, a desk which does this is mandatory, especially if you don't game alone.)

Also, you mentioned sitting on your couch. Most people's TVs are a fair distance from their couch (i.e., far more than ~20 inches away), and that greatly reduces the perceived benefit of RGB. Unless you're close enough to clearly see the texture created by the shadow mask, it doesn't feel like an arcade game.

Wholeheartedly agree there too. But too close as an arcade cabinet forces (with a big-enough monitor), is not the best for perception either.

[schmerzkaufen]

Is this some kind of European thing where only special people are capable of doing things?

Alright with this I think with you at least I won't continue this conversation.

-----

@Recap: yes of course that would be a completely silly unreasonable purchase just for the looks. 

In regards to what you said, you know, somehow related I've had the idea of instead of roman-fleuve tutorials and FAQs, school-case practical single-guides like:

"here described and illustrated with known working parts how to build and configure the archetypical Groovy 15khz setup"
"here how to build and configure the archetypal 31khz Groovy setup"
'here how to build and configure the archetypal LCD groovy setup"
etc

With no references to extras nor parts that would lead to more specific configurations or potential trouble.

Anything different, deviating from a guide's primary and only subject, would go to its own specific single-case guide (with copy-paste from other guides allowed where logically and safely applying of course)

There would be just a simple table of contents leading to the guides period. Kind of a mix between FAQ and general guide.
High maintenance method of course, but I'd happily participate.

[Mike A]

Well you keep talking about special people all other time. I thought maybe that is some kind of cultural thing.

[schmerzkaufen]

Is refusing to hear about any specifics, details or nuances that challenge a tunnel-visioned conception of reality also a cultural American thing ? 

[MaximRecoil]

You sound precisely like if you don't actually know what an "RGB TV" is.

What are you talking about? I know exactly what an RGB TV is, and nothing I said indicated otherwise. I have eleven 15 KHz RGB CRT arcade monitors in my house (three 19" Happ Vision Pros that I bought new in 2007, five 19" Nintendo/Sanyo monitors [three 20-EZVs and two 20-Z2AWs], one 19" Electrohome G07, one 19" Wells-Gardner K7000, and one Wells-Gardner K4900), four of which are currently in working arcade cabinets with original hardware. Not only do I own arcade monitors, but I've done plenty of work on them too (tube swaps, flyback transformer swaps, electrolytic capacitor swaps, convergence and purity adjustments, et cetera).

A 15 KHz RGB CRT TV is the same thing as a traditional 15 KHz arcade monitor, with the addition of a TV tuner and usually some other parts (such as an audio amplifier and speaker(s), an outer shell, provisions for other types of video signals such as composite, S-video, and of course, RF, which is inherently part of the analog TV tuner). 15 KHz RGB CRT TVs never existed in North America in the consumer sector, though with newer CRT TVs which have an on-screen-display you can usually hack an RGB signal into it, because the IC that generates the OSD typically does it with an RGB signal, so you can feed RGB into those circuits.

The benefits of 15 KHz RGB with classic video games aren't great enough for me to bother with the hassles associated with 15 KHz from a modern PC. It will still feel like I'm playing a console game if it's not in an arcade cabinet, and for that, MAME on my CRT PC monitor is good enough. An arcade cabinet combined with a 15 KHz RGB CRT is what ups the benefits enough to make it worth the hassle, and indeed, I've recently done so in my Street Fighter II cabinet (Dynamo HS-1). I've only loaded the CPS-1, CPS-2, and CPS-3 Street Fighter games in it, so the original controls are 100% correct for all of them, plus I can easily switch back to the original Street Fighter II: The World Warrior boardset whenever I want to, simply by disconnecting the JAMMA card edge connector from the PC adapter I made, and plugging it back onto the original boardset. They all look perfect on the still-like-new Happ Vision Pro, indistinguishable from the look of original boardsets.

Wholeheartedly agree there too. But too close as an arcade cabinet forces (with a big-enough monitor), is not the best for perception either.

In North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor, neither of which are too big for up-close viewing.

[Substring]

I'd like to feed the troll too ...

Capcom arcade stick: i'd never buy it, ethically speaking. It just blew up de Final Burn Alpha dev team since the original FBA author kinda "sold" FBA, which just totally shocked all other devs that forked with FB Neo. I must admit I'm a GPL respectful person, I know one of the devs, so this panel is a big NO for me.

Now regarding the topic, I think people go for what they think easiest for them and consider the most difficult parts subsidiary. For example: I'm an IT guy, and my hands are much more efficient on a keyboard than doing some wood work. So whichever project I've started so far, all the computer/romset/even electronics parts were ready way before opening the toolbox and take the saw.

Despite this being my own experience, I tend to believe people do first what they are most able to, considering a forum/youtube video/FAQ/friend/premade stuff they can buy online will do the trick for the next big part if building a cab.

In the end, nothing beats the feeling of playing on a cab, eventually using your elbows to prevent your friend from launching that combo that would end the round or score one last goal. It's just so much funnier to share a control panel than a couch to play <2P game you like> with a friend!

Last word: for those of us who grew up watching others play their game, put a coin on the control panel to show you're the one who'd play next, ask the one playing "mind if I join" on a TMNT cab or Captain Commando/Double Dragon/Dragonninja/etc ... That's part of the myth that goes with owning (and crafting) your own cab. And it's priceless

[keilmillerjr]

Don’t understand why one would want a full size cab? You need to have experienced the arcade when it was a the coolest place to go. Standing up, browsing, watching other kids, lining up your quarter, short gameplay, interaction.

Want an arcade cabinet without doing the work? Just buy a real one.

[Mike A]

Is refusing to hear about any specifics, details or nuances that challenge a tunnel-visioned conception of reality also a cultural American thing ? 

Looks like I hit the nail on the head.

[schmerzkaufen]

Looks like you're just a dumb guy being a d**k because people pointed at his contradictions and stubbornness and he can't deal with that. Even though your attitude isn't that of everyone (thankfully) the ideology is pretty much the standard average here. No putting into question, no ripples, blinders firmly attached. No surprise this community feels so sclerosed then, it's like a conservative boomers club, not a single change in views nor new ideas in ages, barely a pulse, dust accumulating. Pity.

[Mike A]

That sounds more like your attitude.
You just sound like a special guy being a dick.
Take your blinders off and see another perspective.

[schmerzkaufen]

NO U

Dude we're so in tune, on for a tango ? 

[Recapnation]

In regards to what you said, you know, somehow related I've had the idea of instead of roman-fleuve tutorials and FAQs, school-case practical single-guides like:

"here described and illustrated with known working parts how to build and configure the archetypical Groovy 15khz setup"
"here how to build and configure the archetypal 31khz Groovy setup"
'here how to build and configure the archetypal LCD groovy setup"
etc

With no references to extras nor parts that would lead to more specific configurations or potential trouble.

Anything different, deviating from a guide's primary and only subject, would go to its own specific single-case guide (with copy-paste from other guides allowed where logically and safely applying of course)

There would be just a simple table of contents leading to the guides period. Kind of a mix between FAQ and general guide.
High maintenance method of course, but I'd happily participate.

I'm not the best person for that, but that would totally kill the little time I have these days for this stuff anyway, I'm afraid. Half the chapters at Eiusdemmodi's documentation index have been under construction for ages now for a reason... But for a 15-kHz GM set-up, it's basically done, isn't it? As this thread shows, I don't believe that most people would have interest in following any recommendation regarding controllers or any other aspect unrelated to the video thing.

In North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor

I'm sure that's far from reality. I'm way more used to the Japanese scene, but if even in Europe 29'' monitors were the norm already in the early 90's, the US couldn't be any less. That's the size most Japanese cabs used even before the 90's, anyway, and the one accepted as optimal also for vertical usage (given that they need to give the two players the best possible field of view). But 29'' is too big for the 40 cm of distance you get at most.

That's just an aspect, anyhow, of why I believe that arcade cabs are overrated due to nostalgia, fetichism or just plain ignorance. Particularly the Western samples. But, at the same time, I understand that they're most likely the easiest way to get a good-enough set-up, at least, if you don't live in Europe. Getting a good desk...:




(not the best panel there, but to get an idea)

...is not exactly cheap or easy.

In the end, nothing beats the feeling of playing on a cab, eventually using your elbows to prevent your friend from launching that combo that would end the round or score one last goal. It's just so much funnier to share a control panel than a couch to play <2P game you like> with a friend!

Last word: for those of us who grew up watching others play their game, put a coin on the control panel to show you're the one who'd play next, ask the one playing "mind if I join" on a TMNT cab or Captain Commando/Double Dragon/Dragonninja/etc ... That's part of the myth that goes with owning (and crafting) your own cab. And it's priceless

Those are basically the reasons which one would find to avoid game centers, if you ask me -- a [good] game deserves to be played with some intentness and less annoyances. And the social aspect is lost if it's in your house, where you aren't allowing strangers. And yep; I grew up going to the arcades too, but soon learned that I needed the games at home too, ended up buying an AES when the best thing you could get for it at the time was Magician Lord. Believe me -- you DON'T want the sound of nobody's coin being put on your control panel when you're trying to kill the frogs before they transform at stage 5 with one single credit.


(Note: Not trying to be a contrarian here. Have been saying stuff like this for years.)

[Mike A]

NO U

Dude we're so in tune, on for a tango ? 

If you are ever in Chicago send me a PM. I will buy you a few beers and we can debate this stuff like civilized drunks.

[MaximRecoil]

In North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor

I'm sure that's far from reality.

It doesn't matter that you're sure.

I'm way more used to the Japanese scene, but if even in Europe 29'' monitors were the norm already in the early 90's, the US couldn't be any less.

Not only could the US be any less, but it was less. As I said before, in North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor. Midway cabinets (e.g., Mortal Kombat and its sequels, NBA Jam, etc.) had a 25" monitor. The three types of cabinets that Street Fighter II: Champion Edition and its sequels/prequels typically appeared in all had a 25" monitor (Dynamo HS-5, Capcom "Big Blue", and 3-KOAM Z-back). The original SFII (The World Warrior) was only sold as a kit, but its bezel was marked on the back with guide lines showing where to cut for a Dynamo HS-1/HS-2 cabinet (19" monitor), or a Dynamo HS-5/HS-8/HS-9 cabinet (25" monitor):





SNK Neo Geo cabinets also had a 25" monitor.

One of the few exceptions I can think of off the top of my head is the Dynamo "Showcase" cabinet (HS-15), which had a 34" monitor. But HS-15s had a massive footprint which placed the player significantly farther away from the monitor than usual, and they were far from typical. The only one I ever saw/played on location had Street Fighter Alpha installed in it, in 1996:



Prior to the early 1990s, 19" was by far the most common size arcade monitor in North America.

[fuchi_jeg]

I agree with the original post for a few reasons. First, the amount of work and special skills needed to get groovymame and a keyboard encoder working with the controls and monitor far exceed the skills needed to build a cabinet consisting of 2 side panels and some shelves. Second, the monitor and control panel sizes generally need to be factored into the design of the cabinet. It just makes sense that it would be tailored to monitor/control panel vs. The other way around.  Third, a finished cabinet is absolutely useless if you never get GM working with some type of monitor setup.
   I originally envisioned my machine as a portable control panel that I could connect to any LCD monitor via hdmi.  Once it was designed, built, and the PC was installed I started tinkering with a consumer CRT and vga to component encoder.   That morphed into a 25" multisync arcade monitor and a full cabinet, which is nearly complete.  I can't imagine starting with a cabinet carcass and trying to shoehorn the electronics in at a later time and hoping you can wrap your mind around the software and hardware side.  I'll post some photos once its 100%.
     

[MaximRecoil]

I can't imagine starting with a cabinet carcass and trying to shoehorn the electronics in at a later time and hoping you can wrap your mind around the software and hardware side.

When I decided I wanted to try MAME in my SFII cabinet, it was displaying on the monitor less than an hour later, and that included the time it took to solder a VGA cable into a JAMMA adapter PCB to plug into my cabinet's JAMMA harness. I used an old PC with an HD 5450 video card that I already had, and installed GroovyArcade after watching a short tutorial on YouTube. Granted, initially I had to use a keyboard or USB gamepad to control it, and PC speakers for sound, so the job wasn't complete yet.

After I saw that the proof of concept was successful, I ordered a PS/2 KeyWiz so that I could connect the cabinet's joysticks and buttons to the PC via the KeyWiz which I wired to the JAMMA adapter, and I already had a small 12-volt audio amplifier, so I wired that in to get sound to the cabinet's speakers. I didn't make any permanent changes to the arcade cabinet, nor did I hack into or otherwise alter any of its original wiring (all the wiring I did was to the KeyWiz, amplifier, and JAMMA adapter; the JAMMA adapter is what allows everything to plug into the cabinet's wiring harness), and I can switch back to the original boardset in less than a minute by unplugging the card edge connector and kick harness from the JAMMA adapter and plugging them back into the SFII boardset, which is still inside the cabinet in the same place that it's always been.

Obviously building a cabinet is way more of a hassle and expense than just getting a PC to work with a 15 KHz CRT (though the latter only gives you a home console experience, which isn't worth expending any effort at all in my opinion), but if you already have a JAMMA cabinet, it isn't hard at all to get MAME running on it at 15 KHz.

[fuchi_jeg]

I completely agree, and once everything is buttoned up I plan on adding some dedicated jamma boards into my rotation. I was speaking more of the guys starting with a bare carcass, or new construction cabinet.  There is a lot of additional work involved there. I would venture to say that most guys that start an "arcadecade jones's multicade" MAME abortion dont have a working cabinet to convert.

[jennifer]

Buying your first real cab is an experience you will NEVER forget...The stink of mouse pee, begging your friends, the handful of cash, the excitement, Will it fit through the door? Is it going to rain?, can I fix it?...Mame still sucks, and is overly confusing with all those unlabeled buttons, One coin, one control, one game.

[MaximRecoil]

Mame still sucks, and is overly confusing with all those unlabeled buttons, One coin, one control, one game.

In my opinion, the best approach to MAME in an arcade cabinet is to only add games that use the same or nearly the same controls. For example, there are lots of games that use an 8-way joystick and 3 buttons, since that's the JAMMA standard. There's also the 8-way joystick and 6 button layout that the Street Fighter games used. Or a 4-way joystick with 2 buttons, or even just 1 button, will work for most of the classic vertical-monitor games. There are even quite a few games that used a 4-way joystick and no buttons (not counting the start buttons).

I wouldn't trade any of my dedicated arcade machines for a MAME cabinet, but MAME is nice to have in addition to them. In my case, one of my arcade cabinets is Street Fighter II: The World Warrior. I can easily beat the AI on the hardest DIP switch setting without losing a match, or even a round for that matter, and have been able to do so for over 25 years, so there's no challenge, and no one I know is any good at SFII, so there's no challenge playing human opponents either. By connecting a MAME PC to it with all of the CPS-1, 2, and 3 Street Fighter games (all of which use the same controls of course), suddenly the machine is fun to play again. I've been playing a lot of SFII: Hyper Fighting (hardest DIP switch setting) since I set it up a couple weeks ago, and have gone from beating it with 17 continues to just 2 continues. After that there are about 10 more that I can try to beat without any losses, though the AI is so difficult on some of them that I probably never will be able to.

[Recapnation]

In North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor

I'm sure that's far from reality.

It doesn't matter that you're sure.

25'' monitors were indeed more common than 29'' ones in Europe and Japan as well during the early 90's despite what I said. From 1994 onwards (and the "CRT era" at least lasted 10 years more in the arcades), it's the other way round, though, at least in Japan, which I thought we already were past this phase of realizing that it's the region of reference in regards to anything arcade-related worth referencing beyond the early Atari.

But OK; the US stuck to 19 and 25'' if you say so. The latter is still a bit too big for proper perception at ~30 cm. New users, especially those in Europe -- think about ergonomics before fetichism. A good, 25~29'' RGB TV set will do wonders for some serious gaming, which I believe that's what you're after if you're reading the Groovy MAME forum. You can rotate it easily for verticality when needed, even. You're welcome.

[keilmillerjr]

Golden tee was known is usa to go from some ridiculously tiny monitor in 1990 (13”?) up to a 29”.

[MaximRecoil]

25'' monitors were indeed more common than 29'' ones in Europe and Japan as well during the early 90's despite what I said. From 1994 onwards (and the "CRT era" at least lasted 10 years more in the arcades), it's the other way round, though, at least in Japan, which I thought we already were past this phase of realizing that it's the region of reference in regards to anything arcade-related worth referencing beyond the early Atari.

What are you talking about? The region of reference is North America, because I'm the one who made the reference in the first place and I specifically typed "North America." As for Japan, we got their games, but we didn't get their weird sit-down plastic and tin "candy cabinets." We got some of their 1980s plywood upright cabinets, such as the ones from Nintendo (Donkey Kong, Popeye, Punch-Out, etc.), all of which had 19" monitors (usually made by Sanyo; some made by Sharp), but by the time the JAMMA era was in full swing, Japanese games were usually sent to North American distributors in kit form and installed in generic American wooden upright cabinets, such as the ones made by Dynamo. Most of those cabinets were designed for 19" or 25" monitors.

But OK; the US stuck to 19 and 25'' if you say so. The latter is still a bit too big for proper perception at ~30 cm.

I've played on plenty of 25" monitor arcade cabinets, and they are perfectly fine. And the viewing distance is not "~30 cm", it's about twice that distance.

New users, especially those in Europe -- think about ergonomics before fetichism.

Neither ergonomics nor fetishism have anything to do with anything in this thread, plus, I'm pretty sure that "new users, especially those in Europe" have not elected you as their official spokesman.

A good, 25~29'' RGB TV set will do wonders for some serious gaming, which I believe that's what you're after if you're reading the Groovy MAME forum. You can rotate it easily for verticality when needed, even.

I'm running MAME in a Dynamo HS-1 cabinet (Street Fighter games only, since it's a Street Fighter II: The World Warrior cabinet), which has a 19" RGB CRT arcade monitor. When I first started playing SFII: TWW in the arcades in 1991, they were usually in Dynamo HS-1 (19" monitor) or HS-5 (25" monitor) cabinets, which are the two cabinets that the U.S. kit was specifically designed for. The only advantage of the HS-5 is that the cabinet is about 2½ inches wider than an HS-1, which gives a little more elbow room for two players.

As for "doing wonders for some serious gaming," the size of the CRT and the type of video signal that's being fed to it doesn't matter with regard to how well you can play the game, as long as it's not ridiculously tiny or ridiculously huge relative to the viewing distance, and is clear enough to see what's going on in the game. The only advantage of RGB over lesser quality video signals is that it looks better.

You're welcome.

Say what?

[MaximRecoil]

Golden tee was known is usa to go from some ridiculously tiny monitor in 1990 (13”?) up to a 29”.

Most dedicated Golden Tee cabinets used 25" monitors, and the newest CRT-based ones used 27" monitors, such as this dedicated Golden Tee 2005 (Wells-Gardner D9200):



If there's any such thing as a dedicated Golden Tee with a 13" monitor, it would have been a cabaret version, though the cabaret versions that I know of used 19" monitors. Of course, when it comes to conversion kits instead of dedicated cabinets, well, the arcade operator can install it in any cabinet with any monitor size he can get ahold of.

[Recapnation]

What are you talking about?

Nothing at all. You win whatever it is, bro.

[schmerzkaufen]

In Europe IIRC arcades originally had 19 and 25 cabinets, fewer 29 or superior, those came later during the 90's.

And TVs were available in 13, 21, 25, 29, bigger than 29 were very rare.

25 were in fewer supply for some reason, but the best for size/convenience ratio, much lighter and easy to handle than most 29's.

I don't like the late Sony's with flat tubes (horrible geometry) and chassis that sometimes limit refresh to 58Hz at the lowest.

A good 25, a Groovy PC, a stick, and you're good, awesome even if that's not a cabinet, that, can come later. 

----

EDIT: I'd say put that trio on a simplistic sturdy furni-structure, adjustable-enough that it allows you to match the measurements or existing arcade cabinets, and you got yourself what's technically most of what a real arcade cab is (the same in regards to display+emulation), for like a small fraction of the hassle and price of building a cab from scratch, and also a fraction of buying and refurbishing a genuine cabinet.

What's missing is that simple 'furni-structure', I've alrady though in the past that it would be awesome if we could buy a simple steel skeleton (in kit and why not even foldable) designed for that purpose. Would be better than going Ikea style.
Nothing would forbid to build around it later to achieve a more complete repro of an actual cab.

I so understand OP, a least for someone living in Europe since we have those scart TVs, it's something that naturally comes to mind, and if you think about it a process that embraces a much friendlier learning curve for complete noobs (or broke people alike).

[Calamity]

Too bad you didn't know me by then (or did you?).

Not yet, it was a bit later when I landed at Postback.

While I certainly agree cabinets are fetish, I want to clarify that I don't disregard cabinets because of that. It's exactly their strength as fetish, totemic objects what attracts people into the hobby, at least that was my case. Once they're in, it's our responsibility to guide them so that at least they don't commit abominations like mounting an LCD monitor in a cabinet.

So that takes me to the point I disagree with OP's: even if you can mantain that a desktop setup is easier for a beginner, it is actually the cabinet object what attracts the beginner. So no cabinet, no beginner (in most cases). Then, this beginner may become a convert.

There are notable counter examples, but I believe my point still holds.

I guess it highly depends on the gate each one takes to enter the rabbit hole. People that reach from the home systems world, typically trying to achieve the perfect connection, then rediscovering emulation, RGB, etc. will probably arrive faster or more naturally to the bare-bones desktop CRT setup.

[schmerzkaufen]

Once they're in, it's our responsibility to guide them so that at least they don't commit abominations like mounting an LCD monitor in a cabinet.

  no it's not necessarily an 'abomination', for instance some 27" that will fit in a japanese candy cab are compatible with CRT_EMudriver or VRR and perform very well, not like the crap of the early years of flat panels that people salvage or buy for 10 bucks.
Then the choice of scaling/filtering etc are many and sometimes subtle and even unknown to the majority, people who apply basic fake scanlines effects or greasy shaders on default settings, on top of having a bad flat panel, lack the quality to judge.

Of course, it goes without saying that you can't have something that competently replaces a CRT, but with a flat panel you don't necessarily get an 'abomination', nope.

For people who are in a situation where a replacement RGB monitor is a big price and shipping issue (freck, it can cost up to 1000 bucks to get a fresh arcade monitor to your place, and with accidents sometimes), then opting for a flat panel isn't such a bad move, assuming they study the options and possibilities carefully.

So that takes me to the point I disagree with OP's: even if you can mantain that a desktop setup is easier for a beginner, it is actually the cabinet object what attracts the beginner. So no cabinet, no beginner (in most cases). Then, this beginner may become a convert.

I do not agree with that also, for most people I know and have known since the early 2000's including of course cabs and pcb owners, what always mattered to achieve in priority for most when it comes to emulation, was accuracy (graphics looks, lag, refresh, etc)
The first reason I've always heard invoked by pcb owners to not let pcb's go to replace by emulation has always been that it wasn't good enough (except some would be mildly okay with advancemame back then, but not many)
And the first goal and discussion topic I've always heard the global majority desire and aim for is accuracy.

The question of having or not everything that's around the core of it all (the cab furniture, coinage, panels, audio, marquees, chair whatever) has always been treated as secondary or kind of a different side-discipline.

The only ones who in priority cared for cabs in their full glory were specifically the cabs collectors, people building game rooms, and no need to say those were always relatively few considering the space and money that's required to live the hobby at that scale.

I guess it highly depends on the gate each one takes to enter the rabbit hole. People that reach from the home systems world, typically trying to achieve the perfect connection, then rediscovering emulation, RGB, etc. will probably arrive faster or more naturally to the bare-bones desktop CRT setup.

That's the probem I have with this community, it seems the core members have very fixed ideas on what's right and what's wrong and that noobs need to be directed to those nearly religious commandments, and proposing alternative ideas or trying to shed a different light on realities those kind of 'rules' ignore, quickly generates relatively strong negative reactions, even ostracism.

Too radical stances actually drive noobs away. some alternatives and compromises are actually acceptable and not destructive, worth being defended, I wish you guys would realize one day.

That's kind of what mamedev have long been lost into, exaggerated ideological conservationsm/radicalism, isolationism and therefore sclerosis that drives people away, then actually benefits those who more deserve to be called 'traitors to the cause and sinners' like RetroArch, Arcade 1-Up, Crapcom stick, whatever dealers of snake oil.
There's something I call the 'Linux paradox' that I could just as well call the 'MAME paradox', which unfortunately is a common phenomenon in the FOSS world.
I won't enter into details now but anytone should see what I'm talking about.

Well, what I first though joining here and discovering Groovy was that this place is free from that curse, but I guess I was at lest a bit, partly wrong.
I know I'm disliked around here and seen kind of like a nuisance and a parasite, I'm not surprised of that status but still deplore and I don't think I can ever manage to make my views understood even a bit, or clear some misunderstandings, without first attracting hostility no matter what I say.
But I shrug at popularity issues, because I know I've put my finger on a real longstanding problem, and I care about the topic so bleeeeh! 

[fuchi_jeg]

Anytime you get into the deep recesses of the internet where elite nerds live you will always find the elite  of the elite who shame and browbeat the new guys because they wont assimilate and adhere to the commandments that are written in stone. They are here, they are at shmups forum, every forum has them, and I dont know why they go out of their way to drive people away. 

[benarcade]

"the global majority desire and aim for is accuracy"

Ultimately, yes - after you slap together your first MAME setup using a PC and a keyboard.

Also, it seems as though accuracy is weighted differently for each person - I see a lot of people who must have a CRT but don't care that their buttons and joysticks use micro-switches (gah!). I also think a cabinet of some kind is crucial for the experience, because it adds a level of isolation and focus - immersion in the game - that you can't get in an open-air setup (and authenticity).

[MaximRecoil]

Also, it seems as though accuracy is weighted differently for each person - I see a lot of people who must have a CRT but don't care that their buttons and joysticks use micro-switches (gah!).

Your statement carries the unwarranted assumption that people end up with microswitches only due to a lack of care. Countless original arcade machines came with microswitch buttons and joysticks, and anyone playing those games would want microswitch buttons and joysticks if they care about authenticity. If you had a 100% original Donkey Kong machine for example, would you swap out the microswitch buttons and joystick that it came with from the factory for leaf switch ones?

[Calamity]

no it's not necessarily an 'abomination

To be clear, I have total respect for a desktop setup on LCD. I was specifically speaking of putting an LCD in a cabinet.

Maybe "abomination" is too general, I mean it's definitely something fake. And in that sense I'd agree OP when he says it's pretentious.

In a scale of fakeness, from more genuine to more fake, we'd have:

1.- Plastic plants (cf. Fake Plastic Trees)
2.- Inflatable dolls
3.- Arcade cabinets with LCD monitors

Too radical stances actually drive noobs away. some alternatives and compromises are actually acceptable and not destructive, worth being defended, I wish you guys would realize one day.

Real life is already full of compromises. I claim the right to be dogmatic on forums.

The intelligent attitude is not to take us too seriously.

I know I'm disliked around here and seen kind of like a nuisance and a parasite,

Nah, you know that's not true and you're overacting.

But I have to say that people like you are also part of the problem that you're unfairly accusing us of. You have already the knowledge to write some of those groovy-for-dummies guides you'd like to have found when you started, in a language accesible for the laymen as you like to say.

[donluca]

On a scale of fakeness, from more genuine to more fake, we'd have:

1.- Plastic plants (cf. Fake Plastic Trees)
2.- Inflatable dolls
3.- Arcade cabinets with LCD monitors

Thank you for providing me a nice quote to put in my signature.

[Recapnation]

I'd say put that trio on a simplistic sturdy furni-structure, adjustable-enough that it allows you to match the measurements or existing arcade cabinets,

You can improve standard arcade cabinet measurements in many ways -- you don't need the monitor bearing all the vibrations of a hardcore KOF session, you don't need to play upstanding, and you don't ever need the contact of your gamemate's elbow. Obvious stuff yet not enough to drown the lure, it seems.

I also think a cabinet of some kind is crucial for the experience, because it adds a level of isolation and focus - immersion in the game - that you can't get in an open-air setup (and authenticity).

It's all in your mind, really. You find many people even placing marquees, vinyls and generally the ugliest stuff they find you just can't unsee when playing. How's that "immersive"?

[Paradroid]

you don't need the monitor bearing all the vibrations of a hardcore KOF session, you don't need to play upstanding, and you don't ever need the contact of your gamemate's elbow. Obvious stuff yet not enough to drown the lure, it seems.

Ahhh... you must be getting old. That IS the allure.

Standing up, beating the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of a cabinet while well and truly in your mate's personal space bubble is the REAL way to play.

If you think different then you're starring down the barrel of future filled with mobility scooters, sensible shoes and his and her's twin beds.

[schmerzkaufen]

Real life is already full of compromises. I claim the right to be dogmatic on forums.

The intelligent attitude is not to take us too seriously.

You know what? I think I've been way more enthusiastic for GroovyMAME than even you its developer, and that is the problem.
There were several leads you invoked, about frame_slice, about automatizing frame_delay+vsync_offset (I've been crossing fingers for the latter but it didn't escape me that you deliberately avoided talking about it again every time I brought the topic), several features development-related things for the future, that you talked about but then never again, leaving those topics to an ellipsis and interrogations points.
I mean without saying if you had any visibility, progress in sight, hopes whatever, or even just if you thought of not doing/dropping because too complicated or you had no time. Zero hints.

You know it's normal if you mention potential features development stuff like that, that users will actually wait for news, right? I mean even news of a feature not making it, cancellation, which is fine too nobody blames, it is better than no news you know.
I've seen some threads with some dev action pop but too technical for me to really understand, asking as usual only brought a more enigmatic short reply (getscanline thread, most info about future development I've had in like a year and I didn't get what was going on, like people are 'yay!' and me '...')

Nah, you know that's not true and you're overacting.

But I have to say that people like you are also part of the problem that you're unfairly accusing us of. You have already the knowledge to write some of those groovy-for-dummies guides you'd like to have found when you started, in a language accesible for the laymen as you like to say.

I don't think I'm overreacting and you know it, I'll give you examples among others; you know the issue I've had that I couldn't use ArcadeOSD for getting the necessary modeline, I had to ask you three times over several months for a solution and every you acted like I was pumping your vital oxygen, the reluctance was palpable, and for just that little answer (ponting at an app I could use) I was stuck for many months unable to reuse the LCD guide nor recommend it to people who were asking me.
There's been more cases like this and so please explain to me how with the little I know (all I know is the LCD dynamic and static methods, that's all I can write about), how I am expected to write a new form of guides, knowing that if I'm in trouble and need assistance/explanation/correction, the person most competent to help...is reluctant to?
Or like just being blanked in PM even shortly after having made a donation in honest gratitude, and being given your barely implied feeling that my thing here is to manipulate you into doing stuff (the classic software dev 'I wont be your slave damned user' paranoia reaction)
Or like being treated like I'm cute with my interest for LCDs or thinking of improving accessibility for people who have diffculties using Groovy, cute for defending its merits and helping people where I wasn't asked anything by you or Recap, while you guys don't actually take any of that seriously and likely holding back saying frankly that it's a bother because LCDs are crap and I'm wasting mine and yours time?

Honesly if you couldn't go on developing the features you yourself talked about - whatever the reasons - or if you thought I was invading, and basically what you were really hoping for was developing an escape route feature so that you could finally give mamedev something politically acceptable (zero latency in VRR) to lay off Groovy's development (which would be a mistake I'm 100% sure bc 'commercial vrr has become mainstream and accessible' is a very poor excuse stnding on a wobbly basis)...then why didn't you say so, honestly, much much earlier ? 

I would have just said "okay I understand thanks a lot for what you've done see ya around" and stopped waiting/hoping uselessly for those features developments and stopped bothering you guys here at BYOAC.
I would also have told people around to not insist too much with Groovy instead of spending hours and hours doing support for them, defending its superior principles etc.
Basically I totally respect people who are direct, frank, blunt and honest, but I have a lot of communication issues with people who avoid at all cost talking, avoid answering directly or give empty words in place, and avoid speaking their mind/heart etc. because it creates crappy sitiations like this.

I was really super extra enthusiast last year, you helped me a lot and made Groovy advance on the flat panels topic, and I was genuinely very, very grateful believe it or not. For all that: eternal thanks really.

But really this is how I've experienced 2019, he impression you gave me:
"sigh I don't want to communicate about Groovy development I have no time for this I just wish I could be done with it already"
and regarding my questions and interventions;
"argh not schmerzkaufen questions/rants again, i'll pass/ignore or drop a couple words hopefully he won't insist"

And this is also basically the vibe BYOAC gives overall anyway, I'm probably around the same age as you guys, yet here I've been feeling like I was standing in a retirement home in company of grouches unwilling to hear about anything of the outside world, change anything, nor communicate with anyone about anything but the routine and hope they'll be left in peace for the next round of whatever cards game they play while reminiscing about the past.

[Mike A]

You need to see a mental health specialist.

[schmerzkaufen]

F* you Mike, with a cactus dipped in tabasco, and I'm not talking with you here anyway. You're really an arsehole no way we'd ever have a drink ya c*

---

If Calamity had been able to speak in anything but silence and enigmas, invoking possiblities then leaving things suspended up in mystery air, and me holding my breath like an idiot for like a year, then him now casually practically ridiculing my centers of interest for Groovy and likely adopting the old vrr excuse mamedev wrote many years ago, he wouldn't have pushed his once most enthusiastic supporter into exasperation.

I just expected intelligible communication, not permanent elusiveness, and not being ignored or ostracized like that ffs. Just - normal - yeses or noes or even a 'f* off*.
Being an end user looking up GroovyMAME is like trying to watch chinese shadow theatre in too low back-light, and other people in the audience are either as confused as you, or frowning like asking "wtf are you doing here stop wasting time or make efforts to watch this, this is not your place". 

EDIT: I just want to know:

- is this ever happening, even just the vsync_offset slider, it doesn't have to be the full auto thing: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,158665.msg1668654.html#msg1668654
vsync offset alone is like nearly half of the whole ordeal of using groovy on a flat panel, i've expereicned it as well as struggled hell to help other people set that. so of course i've been waiting eagerly.

- if after all it is not happening, then is "get a vrr setup" groovymame's answer, and then not necessary anymore to wait for a solution for vsync_offset ?

And that's it. Maybe you could even have answered that by a yes or no last year, how would i know you rarely speak anything I can relate to, and I would have left you, everyone, in peace with only occasional visits. Also would have not lobbied for Groovy nearly as much as I did if the answer had been 'no'.
Simple updates on development from time-to-time for end users who can't understand complicated dev language threads, and need to know once in a while if they're actually waiting for something or if the dev has been going a completely different route without telling... such updates in layman or at leat general terms are actually damn important.

[Mike A]

I apologize you are completely rational. My mistake.

[Sledge]

why would I when I can just connect the stick directly over usb and play in my sofa???

because playing streetfighter like that is rubbish?
most games are designed to be played on a cabinet the correct way..
who wants to sit on a couch juggling a joystick on their lap when they can have a cabinet holding everything in place that 'just works' all the time?

I have 2 arcade machines (vertical and horizontal) which were both fairly easy to set up, and i have no special skills or training in anything.
Everything is on the internet to see how others have done it (right or wrong) and i went from there.. VERY happy with how they have turned out...

[yotsuya]

F* you Mike, with a cactus dipped in tabasco, and I'm not talking with you here anyway. You're really an arsehole no way we'd ever have a drink ya c*

---

[Mike A]

The Tabasco will at least make entry easier.

[yotsuya]

The Tabasco will at least make entry easier.

I hope your arsehole can take it.

[Mike A]

You're really an arsehole no way we'd ever have a drink ya c*

Unfortunately we will never find out.

[Substring]

should we blame OP for posting the trollest topic ever ?  Just kidding ! He's not to blame of how most of us have gotten in a crusade to defend his/her point of view ...

Guyz, seriously, this is getting way too far ... I'm sad I'll never get the opportunity to push Recapnation with my elbow in a Mortal Kombat fight to avoind being ridiclulised by a babality  No harm pal, I know what pain Magician Lord is, I could never pass the 1st stage with the basic 4 credits from NeoGeo AES the very first time I played it when I was a teenager Everyone his way of playing at his cab, no one is wrong, no one is right

This is just gaming, having fun, enjoying every bit of the cab we've built on our own, or one you'd restore yourself. This doesn't derserve the flaming I've been reading for the last few days.

[Recapnation]

Playing a versus game as you participate in an elbow contest is a wrong way of playing a versus game much like playing Magician Lord with 4 credits is a wrong way of playing Magician Lord. This is of course dogmatic, but a game without dogmas is not game, that's called a toy. And, if you ask me, that's exactly the opposite way an arcade game should be understood. Totally off-topic, even uncalled-for if you will on this forum, but if it serves to save just one lost soul who may be reading this, why not.

[Paradroid]

This is of course dogmatic, but a game without dogmas is not game, that's called a toy. And, if you ask me, that's exactly the opposite way an arcade game should be understood.

Appreciate your stance. It's interesting to hear how others enjoy the hobby (basically, my way is the opposite of yours: the more ambient chaos, the better! That's how arcade gaming was for me as a kid.)

You reminded me of a friend of mine who is basketball obsessed but he hates all the rituals and hype that go with the game. For him, the ideal setting would be a stadium, two teams and just him sitting in the audience. No distractions.

Again, the opposite would be true for me but I respect the purity of his vision.

[Recapnation]

Appreciate your stance. It's interesting to hear how others enjoy the hobby (basically, my way is the opposite of yours: the more ambient chaos, the better!

More ambient chaos means more disturbances which potentially affect your playing, right?

Your interest then doesn't reside first and foremost in your performance nor how the game itself performs beyond a superficial layer, right?

You could then swap Groovy MAME for baseline MAME without noticing, may it be?

(Honest questions; I promise.)

That's how arcade gaming was for me as a kid.)

Did you never try to "beat" a game? Just... enjoy the "chaos"?

[Mike A]

Paradroid likes to have fun when he is playing.

Video games are supposed to be fun.

[Recapnation]

This kind of fun, you mean?

[Paradroid]

More ambient chaos means more disturbances which potentially affect your playing, right?

Mate, I'm good though: can happily chat to a mate about his marital woes, drink a beer and still clock Street Fighter.

Your interest then doesn't reside first and foremost in your performance nor how the game itself performs beyond a superficial layer, right?

I can see how you might make that assumption but you're very wrong: I'm obsessive over every aspect and this hobby has led me to some strange places (e.g. home made convergences strips, DIY low-resistance digital potentiometers to automatically change vertical frame size when switching resolutions, generating .inis for each game with ReplayGain determined volume adjustments, RGB-modding TVs, cap kitting, etc.) in pursuit of perfection.

That's the craft side though: when I actually sit down to truly game, that all goes out the window. It's like difference between practicing your scales and stepping onto a stage to perform.

You could then swap Groovy MAME for baseline MAME without noticing, may it be?

Haha! No chance... just because I don't approach gaming in a zen-like, chess tournament way doesn't mean I'm not completely anal retentive when it comes to getting my machines looking and working like magic.

Did you never try to "beat" a game? Just... enjoy the "chaos"?

For sure!!! And the chaos enhanced those experiences e.g. 10 or so guys behind my mate and I cheering the first time we cracked Golden Axe! We were heroes. You can't get that buzz home alone.

Sure, golfers need silence to put but video games call for some hoo-ha.

I can certainly see things your way but, for me, arcade gaming is intrinsically linked to socialising and letting your hair down.

[Paradroid]

Paradroid likes to have fun when he is playing.

Cheers! I'll take that beer if the other guy isn't going to drink it...

[Mike A]

If you are ever in the Chicago area that beer is yours.

[Zebra]

not my point at all.

Just saying for newcomers, Id rather advise them to go bare system: RGB capable tv (component ones are probably acceptable too using an vga to component converter), a PC, old ati card, a rgb to scart cable, usb fightstick, and some time to spend on the software setup. This will give them a good enough thing that purists will not acknoledge as a proper arcade machine but theyll still be able to play most games at the right resolution and refresh rate.

Anything involving a real cab will be more complicated and most people will probably encounter issues at either woodworking, electric/electronic stuff or computer literacy because fewer people will be good at the 3 of them, unless they buy a brand new Acrade cab, have it setup by a pro given they are willing to spend a lot more.

SCART TVs are effectively non-existent in North America, and CRTs with component (YPbPr) inputs aren't common, given that component only became a thing after the DVD format took off in the late 1990s / early 2000s, and even then, it was originally only in high-end TVs, which aren't as common as low-end TVs. On top of that, not all CRT TVs with component inputs will sync to a 15 KHz-over-component signal, because component was seen as a way of allowing for progressive scan from DVD players, which is a 31 KHz signal. The TV manufacturers figured that if you wanted 15 KHz, composite or S-video was good enough. It wasn't until the last few years of CRT production that lower end CRT TVs started appearing with component inputs, and fortunately, those usually will sync to 15 KHz-over-component (mainly because 15 KHz is as high as they can go to begin with). Furthermore, RGB-to-component transcoders tend to be not cheap and are also often problematic.

In 2019, in North America, there is no readily accessible path to natively displaying a 15 KHz RGB video signal on a CRT. You either have to find a broadcast or presentation monitor, neither of which are common, or an arcade monitor, which isn't common either, relatively speaking. Or, if you don't mind a small display (12" or so), some old home computer monitors, such as from Commodore, are 15 KHz RGB capable. Of course, those aren't common either.

Ironically, the cheapest and easiest way of doing it for most people in North America is probably to find an old generic JAMMA cabinet (like a Dynamo HS-1) which already has an arcade monitor in it. The cabinet will probably be beat up and the monitor will probably have screen burn and need new electrolytic capacitors at the very least. On the plus side, it provides an authentic arcade game playing experience and you can easily run real JAMMA arcade boardsets in it if you want to.

I wouldn't bother with a MAME TV setup even if RGB TVs were common around here. For that experience, MAME on a regular PC monitor is good enough. Being able to play the games on an arcade cabinet with an arcade monitor is the very thing that makes the hassle worth it in the first place. Also, joysticks aren't worth using IMO unless they are mounted to something that doesn't move, such as the control panel of a 300-pound arcade cabinet.

Also, you mentioned sitting on your couch. Most people's TVs are a fair distance from their couch (i.e., far more than ~20 inches away), and that greatly reduces the perceived benefit of RGB. Unless you're close enough to clearly see the texture created by the shadow mask, it doesn't feel like an arcade game.

This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp. These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res. Sony Trinitrons with component are still be regularly dumped on curbs and given away on Craigslist. Ebay is stuffed with deals on CRT arcade monitors and TV's with component.

As for whether people should buy a cab, that's not something for others to decide or debate. Anyone that decides to buy a cab knows what they are getting already. It's a simple fact that it is common for (even fairly modest) houses in America to have large basements and garages. If you have the room and the cash, there is really no reason not to get one, if you want one. What else would an arcade fan put in a large basement?

I have come to realize that the controls are one of the most important aspects for bringing the arcade experience home. Outputting games to a CRT in native res matters too but the experience is not authentic or particularly enjoyable if you end up playing Operation Wolf and Daytona with a mouse and joypad. Having the right controls and interface is everything.

A large portion of popular arcade favorites are dedicated driving, shooting and flight sym cabs. The arcade experience for those games can not be satisfactorily replicated without a cab. A mame PC and a Joypad just doesn't do it for me.

[MaximRecoil]

This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp.

There's exactly one model of CRT arcade monitor that you can buy from Happ and it is over $700 shipped. I have yet to see any evidence that they are newly manufactured rather than new old stock.

These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res.

They are among the worst CRT options for the vast majority of arcade games (if you want them to look the way they did in the arcades), which used 15 KHz monitors (not multi-sync monitors) with a standard spherical (curved) picture tube (not a flat tube). Multi-sync monitors have a finer dot pitch than 15 KHz-only monitors, which by itself makes them look wrong when displaying 15 KHz games; the flat tube makes them look even more wrong, and the aperture grille that goes along with flat tubes (rather than a conventional shadow mask) makes them look even more, more wrong. The only worse RGB CRT option is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz.

Sony Trinitrons with component are still be regularly dumped on curbs and given away on Craigslist. Ebay is stuffed with deals on CRT arcade monitors and TV's with component.

Trinitrons look wrong for the same reason the Makvision Tri-Sync looks wrong, i.e., flat tube (or cylindrical tube, depending on which version of a Trinitron you get) and aperture grille. Plus, if it's a model of Trinitron that can sync to 31 KHz, it has the finer dot pitch problem too. Also, as I've already mentioned, CRT TVs with component inputs are not nearly as common as ones without it. The best component-input TV to get if you want 15 KHz arcade games to look like they originally did, is one of the lower end models, i.e., 15 KHz-only, standard spherical tube (which also inherently means shadow mask rather than aperture grille, and relatively coarse dot pitch). Unfortunately those might be even harder to find, because component inputs didn't start appearing on lower end CRT TVs until rather late in the game.

[cools]

Imported cabinet, brand new k1080p IPS PC "gaming" monitor, running the Steam HD port of a 15khz JAMMA game.

(Groovy with filter 1 prescale 3 keepaspect on unevenstretch on looks great too)

[Recapnation]

OK; you win the troll contest.

These newish HD cabinets solve most problems of the traditional cabinets in my eyes, though -- two players can use them comfortably and they give you a more reasonable distance to the monitor and point of view as well. Still, flat ---fudgesicle---'ng panel.

[Recapnation]

Also, aperture grille is nice too. Not entirely conventional in the arcades, but a perfectly fine way of displaying pixels. Just keep it below 500 TVL.

[Substring]

OK; you win the troll contest.

These newish HD cabinets solve most problems of the traditional cabinets in my eyes, though -- two players can use them comfortably and they give you a more reasonable distance to the monitor and point of view as well. Still, flat ---fudgesicle---'ng panel.

Out of reach of your mate's elbow ?  just a joke pal

[Paradroid]

Imported cabinet, brand new k1080p IPS PC "gaming" monitor, running the Steam HD port of a 15khz JAMMA game.

Brand new RGB-mods on consumers TVs (Philips and Sanyo).

PCBs in two, GroovyMAME on the other two (running Cools' vertical and horizontal displays in Attract-Mode. They're so, um, cool. ).

It's easier than ever to get RGB into a curved, low-dot pitch, authentic-looking tube in 2019 thanks to the copious amount of how-to information out there now.

[MaximRecoil]

Also, aperture grille is nice too. Not entirely conventional in the arcades, but a perfectly fine way of displaying pixels. Just keep it below 500 TVL.

There's nothing wrong with a flat tube and an aperture grille; they even have some advantages over conventional spherical tubes with shadow masks (which is why they were used on high-end TVs and monitors, e.g., Sony Trinitron, Mitsubishi Diamondtron) but they won't give you the look that 15 KHz arcade games originally had, because every 15 KHz-only arcade monitor that I know of used a conventional spherical tube with a shadow mask, the same type of tube that was used in run-of-the-mill CRT TVs.

Imported cabinet, brand new k1080p IPS PC "gaming" monitor, running the Steam HD port of a 15khz JAMMA game.

Brand new RGB-mods on consumers TVs (Philips and Sanyo).

PCBs in two, GroovyMAME on the other two (running Cools' vertical and horizontal displays in Attract-Mode. They're so, um, cool. ).

It's easier than ever to get RGB into a curved, low-dot pitch, authentic-looking tube in 2019 thanks to the copious amount of how-to information out there now.

Yes, I mentioned that option in a previous post, and for someone who's up for doing the modification, it gives a look that's just as authentic as an original CRT arcade monitor. It's best to use a TV for which you can access the hidden "service menu" though, which allows you to adjust vertical/horizontal position/size of the raster, among other things. It's not a 100% readily accessible path to RGB glory though, because you need to find a suitable TV (one with an onscreen display, which generally means late 1980s or newer; older dial-and-knob type TVs won't work unless you re-engineer the chassis) and you need to either find a specific model for which RGB modification instructions already exist, or know how to adapt the basic concept of the modification to any suitable TV. You also need to know how to solder and not be scared of taking a CRT TV apart and working on its circuitry (many people are convinced that doing so can kill you, though they never produce any documented case of "death by CRT").

[buttersoft]

This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp.

There's exactly one model of CRT arcade monitor that you can buy from Happ and it is over $700 shipped. I have yet to see any evidence that they are newly manufactured rather than new old stock.

These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res.

They are among the worst CRT options for the vast majority of arcade games (if you want them to look the way they did in the arcades), which used 15 KHz monitors (not multi-sync monitors) with a standard spherical (curved) picture tube (not a flat tube). Multi-sync monitors have a finer dot pitch than 15 KHz-only monitors, which by itself makes them look wrong when displaying 15 KHz games; the flat tube makes them look even more wrong, and the aperture grille that goes along with flat tubes (rather than a conventional shadow mask) makes them look even more, more wrong. The only worse RGB CRT option is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz.

I think the dot pitch is actually going to be pretty similar. Certainly the Nanao 29" tri-syncs i've seen have the same pitch as consumer TVs, and those are the Rolls Royce of tri-syncs. Their amazing clarity and colour was more to do with design and construction quality. The Happ monitors are just Makvision tri-syncs aren't they? And those things are meant to be one or two steps above garbage. Still, they're all you can get.

[MaximRecoil]

I think the dot pitch is actually going to be pretty similar. Certainly the Nanao 29" tri-syncs i've seen have the same pitch as consumer TVs, and those are the Rolls Royce of tri-syncs. Their amazing clarity and colour was more to do with design and construction quality. The Happ monitors are just Makvision tri-syncs aren't they? And those things are meant to be one or two steps above garbage. Still, they're all you can get.

The Nanao doesn't use a flat tube, or at least the ones I've seen didn't. They used a standard spherical tube, which means a standard shadow mask. The Makvision that Happ is selling has a flat tube, which usually, if not always, means that it has an aperture grille or variant of an aperture grille. One of the "advantages" of an aperture grille is that it allows for a finer dot pitch (or rather, stripe pitch, because aperture grille tubes use phosphor stripes rather than dots) than a shadow mask. Also, in order to look good at 31 KHz (which is "VGA", e.g., 640x480p @ 60 Hz), the phosphor dots need to be smaller compared to a tube of the same size that's only used for 15 KHz resolutions. You get blurriness if you try to display high resolutions on a coarse dot pitch tube.

In any case, if the multi-sync monitor has a standard spherical tube and shadow mask, the difference in its dot pitch size compared to a standard 15 KHz monitor of the same size probably isn't very noticeable, but when you throw a flat tube / aperture grille setup into the mix, it looks nothing like a standard arcade monitor.

And yeah, the Makvision that Happ is selling doesn't have a stellar reputation for picture quality. I'd use an RGB-modded consumer TV long before I'd use one of those, even if cost wasn't a factor.

[cools]

OK; you win the troll contest.

These newish HD cabinets solve most problems of the traditional cabinets in my eyes, though -- two players can use them comfortably and they give you a more reasonable distance to the monitor and point of view as well. Still, flat ---fudgesicle---'ng panel.

I have plenty of CRTs around the place, way more than I have use for. The LCD is great for anything modern, and while I know old stuff is wrong, it's perfectly playable. Only us fussy buggers really care

[Zebra]

This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp.

There's exactly one model of CRT arcade monitor that you can buy from Happ and it is over $700 shipped. I have yet to see any evidence that they are newly manufactured rather than new old stock.

These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res.

They are among the worst CRT options for the vast majority of arcade games (if you want them to look the way they did in the arcades), which used 15 KHz monitors (not multi-sync monitors) with a standard spherical (curved) picture tube (not a flat tube). Multi-sync monitors have a finer dot pitch than 15 KHz-only monitors, which by itself makes them look wrong when displaying 15 KHz games; the flat tube makes them look even more wrong, and the aperture grille that goes along with flat tubes (rather than a conventional shadow mask) makes them look even more, more wrong. The only worse RGB CRT option is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz.

Sony Trinitrons with component are still be regularly dumped on curbs and given away on Craigslist. Ebay is stuffed with deals on CRT arcade monitors and TV's with component.

Trinitrons look wrong for the same reason the Makvision Tri-Sync looks wrong, i.e., flat tube (or cylindrical tube, depending on which version of a Trinitron you get) and aperture grille. Plus, if it's a model of Trinitron that can sync to 31 KHz, it has the finer dot pitch problem too. Also, as I've already mentioned, CRT TVs with component inputs are not nearly as common as ones without it. The best component-input TV to get if you want 15 KHz arcade games to look like they originally did, is one of the lower end models, i.e., 15 KHz-only, standard spherical tube (which also inherently means shadow mask rather than aperture grille, and relatively coarse dot pitch). Unfortunately those might be even harder to find, because component inputs didn't start appearing on lower end CRT TVs until rather late in the game.

You're still wrong.

Whether Happs CRTs are newly manufactured or from a stock somewhere is irrelevant. The fact is they are available to buy new now and, when they sell out, Happ orders more from somewhere. Right now, they are sold out but new stock arrives Dec 4.

I paid $500 for mine plus $89 delivery which is no different to what new arcade monitors have always cost. They go on sale regularly. For those like you who can't afford to buy new, there is always plenty of used ones that come up on ebay and Craigslist.

The dot pitch on a crt has nothing to do with it being tri-sync or cga only. The sync range is from the chassis and you can put a tri-sync chassis on any compatible CRT. The dot pitch on these Makvisions is around .8mm which is broadly comparable to most 90's CRT tv's. Most arcade monitors have a pitch somewhere around 0.8mm - 0.9mm. It's not like broadcast monitors with a 0.3mm pitch.

I have two tri-syncs (one Billabs, one Makvision), a Wells Gardner K7000 CGA and an Ikegami TM20-90RH so I have a better idea than most in what looks right and is easy to live with. The image on the 27" Makvisions is definitely not to sharp to look arcade-like:



Tri-syncs make the most sense for mame and other arcade emulators because you can play everything from Pac Man to Lindbergh at native res which means you get the nicest image for the most amount of games (without buying seperste CGA, EGA and VGA monitors). 80's arcades look a little nicer on a curved Wells Gardner but not enough to matter.

Newer tri-syncs usually have DB15 input and can be used with a PC with no additional signal boosters or adapters. They usually don't need isolation transformers. The Windows desktop can be run in 480p which doesn't flicker like 480i. They can be used in 480p with a Dreamcast, PS3 and PS2. My 25" Billabs tri-sync is my fav crt and the one that gets the most use for these reasons.

On Component video, it was included on all of the later Sony Trinitrons. The later models are easily the most common on Craigslist in NY / NJ. I doubt New York is unique in this respect. They really aren't hard to find for peanuts.

[Zebra]

This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp.

There's exactly one model of CRT arcade monitor that you can buy from Happ and it is over $700 shipped. I have yet to see any evidence that they are newly manufactured rather than new old stock.

These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res.

They are among the worst CRT options for the vast majority of arcade games (if you want them to look the way they did in the arcades), which used 15 KHz monitors (not multi-sync monitors) with a standard spherical (curved) picture tube (not a flat tube). Multi-sync monitors have a finer dot pitch than 15 KHz-only monitors, which by itself makes them look wrong when displaying 15 KHz games; the flat tube makes them look even more wrong, and the aperture grille that goes along with flat tubes (rather than a conventional shadow mask) makes them look even more, more wrong. The only worse RGB CRT option is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz.

I think the dot pitch is actually going to be pretty similar. Certainly the Nanao 29" tri-syncs i've seen have the same pitch as consumer TVs, and those are the Rolls Royce of tri-syncs. Their amazing clarity and colour was more to do with design and construction quality. The Happ monitors are just Makvision tri-syncs aren't they? And those things are meant to be one or two steps above garbage. Still, they're all you can get.

The issues with Makvisions are nothing to do with the tube or image quality, or authenticity. As with all arcade monitors, the tubes are made by one of the big name manufacturers. Anything unique is in the chassis. My 29/27" Mak tube is made by LG. My 25" Billabs flat crt tri-sync has a Toshiba tube. The image looks different on both and neither looks like a Trinitron tube.

The issue with Makvisions is the chassis quality. The ones I have seen seem to arrive with the power / brightness set wrong which is recipe for problems. I had to spend a little time tweaking the power and color balance as well as the geometry controls (which move during transit). Once adjusted though, it has performed well. It's certainly not the best tri-sync ever made (my Billabs is noticeably higher quality) but it has given me far less problems than my aging Wells Gardner chassis because I got it new. It works a lot better as a multi game mame monitor too.

There is no single monitor that is 100% authentic for all arcade games. They varied tremendously depending on the game developer, the style of cab and the year of release. A lot of later arcade cabs used a flat CRT. games from the 80's usually had 19" curved tubes. Large "deluxe" cabs often used rear projection displays. Most of us have to compromise on something if we don't wish to buy 10 CRTs.

The difference between curved and flat CRTs is mainly related to the geometry. I.e. Curved tubes usually (but not always) have better geometry. With all else equal, I would choose curved but.,. nothing trumps playing every game at native res and refresh when it comes to creating an authentic look. The pitch is 2nd. The tube shape and mask style are of minor importance.

As someone who owns a lot of different types of CRT, I am positive that the look of games from Groovymame on most tri-syncs will satisfy a majority of arcade fans. As an option, it's second only to buying 3 dedicated CGA, EGA and VGA monitors. Here's s few pics to illustrate the point:

Billabs tri-sync with a mid 90's game:



And with an 80's game:



And an EGA game:



And Sega Rally on the PS3 in 480p:



Here's on of the Makvision in CGA mode:



And the Mak with an 80's game:



An EGA game:



And a VGA game:



For reference, here is SF2 on my old Sony Trinitron -



Here is one on my Ikegami broadcast monitor with a curved tube but a pitch that's way too fine for old arcades:



But as with most of these quibbles, they become far less noticeable at normal playing distance:



You just see an amazingly detailed image with fantastic contrast because your are playing at native res and refresh rates:

[MaximRecoil]

You're still wrong.

Whether Happs CRTs are newly manufactured or from a stock somewhere is irrelevant. The fact is they are available to buy new now and, when they sell out, Happ orders more from somewhere. Right now, they are sold out but new stock arrives Dec 4.

It's relevant to what I originally posted. If it's just new old stock then, well, most anything could be said to be readily available. Just search eBay for NOS or "new old stock" and you can find countless items that haven't been manufactured in ages. When someone says that something isn't readily available, it goes without saying that finding it in NOS form is pretty much always a possibility.

Additionally, that's only one make/model of arcade monitor, and it's the wrong size to be a drop-in fit in most North American arcade cabinets.

I paid $500 for mine plus $89 delivery which is no different to what new arcade monitors have always cost. They go on sale regularly.

New arcade monitors have not always cost $500. New 19" Happ Vision Pros were $179 when I bought 3 of them in the late 2000s (their readily-available status ceased around 2009).

For those like you who can't afford to buy new, there is always plenty of used ones that come up on ebay and Craigslist.

That goes without saying, just like the possibility of NOS goes without saying.

The dot pitch on a crt has nothing to do with it being tri-sync or cga only.

Yes, it does.

The sync range is from the chassis and you can put a tri-sync chassis on any compatible CRT.

Obviously, but you'll get poor (blurry) results with VGA on a coarse dot-pitch tube, which is why, for a given tube size, finer dot pitch is used for monitors that sync to higher frequencies.

The dot pitch on these Makvisions is around .8mm

Citation needed.

I have two tri-syncs (one Billabs, one Makvision), a Wells Gardner K7000 CGA and an Ikegami TM20-90RH so I have a better idea than most in what looks right and is easy to live with. The image on the 27" Makvisions is definitely not to sharp to look arcade-like:

Tri-syncs make the most sense for mame and other arcade emulators because you can play everything from Pac Man to Lindbergh at native res which means you get the nicest image for the most amount of games (without buying seperste CGA, EGA and VGA monitors). 80's arcades look a little nicer on a curved Wells Gardner but not enough to matter.

Flat screen CRTs look completely wrong. I could live with a minor dot pitch size difference, but flat screen is a deal killer.

Newer tri-syncs usually have DB15 input and can be used with a PC with no additional signal boosters or adapters. They usually don't need isolation transformers. The Windows desktop can be run in 480p which doesn't flicker like 480i. They can be used in 480p with a Dreamcast, PS3 and PS2. My 25" Billabs tri-sync is my fav crt and the one that gets the most use for these reasons.

And they don't look like most arcade games looked on their original monitors.

On Component video, it was included on all of the later Sony Trinitrons. The later models are easily the most common on Craigslist in NY / NJ. I doubt New York is unique in this respect. They really aren't hard to find for peanuts.

As I've already mentioned, Trinitrons have a flat or cylindrical tube and an aperture grille, i.e., they look wrong. For someone who wants arcade games to look like they originally did, they should look for a run-of-the-mill RCA brand or whatever with a standard spherical tube, and which has component inputs and/or can be RGB-modded.

[Zebra]

That's all nonsense. literally all wrong.

You said that "in 2019 there is no readily accessible path to displaying 15khz rgb on a CRT". This is pure BS. Any one of us could go online right now (in 2019) and order a new or used 15khz rgb crt for delivery to our doorsteps. Groovymame is free (and awesome). This is a readily accessible path.

You said arcade monitors are rare which is also BS. There is almost always a selection on Ebay and Craigslist.

You said 15khz CRT's with component are hard to find. There is currently 7 Sony Trinitrons with component on my local Craigslist and 3 of them are being offered for free. It's been like this for years. Plus, If you search for Sony Trinitron on ebay, the list of options with component or rgb is endless, like more than I could be bothered to count.

On the rest, I'm just going to assume you've never actually seen a tri-sync crt arcade monitor. It sounds like you're regurgitating something you read and misunderstood about presentation and broadcast monitors.

The vast majority of tri-sync arcade monitors use the same tubes found in regular SD crt tv's of their day. I don't know of any that have a fine pitch like a pc monitor. If they exist at all, it's rare. The two tri-sync arcade monitors I have here use the same .8mm tubes found on late model SD crt tv's. My old curved tri-sync had a .9mm tube like crt tv's from the 90's. It looks nothing like the 0.3 or 0.4mm pitch found on presentation monitors (like an XM29) and broadcast monitors. look at the pics...

There is no requirement for tri-syncs to have a fine pitch to avoid blurring detail. The 640 x 480 vga res is the same as the 640 x 480 interlaced res used on every SD crt TV. It's the frame rate that differs, not the number of lines.

Advising people to use crt PC monitors instead of arcade monitors is terrible advice. Old arcade games look horrible on them, even if you output 240p / 120hz. They look almost as bad as an LCD. The point of using a CRT in this day an age is to play old games in their native res and refresh rate for an authentic and pleasing experience. You only get that from a 15khz capable crt and, as we've already established, they are easy to find and plentiful.

[MaximRecoil]

That's all nonsense. literally all wrong.

Your mere assertion is dismissed.

You said that "in 2019 there is no readily accessible path to displaying 15khz rgb on a CRT". This is pure BS. Any one of us could go online right now (in 2019) and order a new or used 15khz rgb crt for delivery to our doorsteps. Groovymame is free (and awesome). This is a readily accessible path.

I know what I said, and when you prove that those Makvisions are currently being manufactured, I'll retract my statement. New old stock doesn't count as being readily available; if it did, then pretty much everything that's ever been manufactured could be said to be readily available.

You said arcade monitors are rare which is also BS. There is almost always a selection on Ebay and Craigslist.

Is that a joke? I said:

"In 2019, in North America, there is no readily accessible path to natively displaying a 15 KHz RGB video signal on a CRT. You either have to find a broadcast or presentation monitor, neither of which are common, or an arcade monitor, which isn't common either, relatively speaking."

Does the "bolding" help? And arcade monitors definitely aren't common, relatively speaking. They never have been and they are even less so now than in the past. They have always been a niche item. People couldn't buy them at e.g., Walmart or Sears. If you go to any random small town, chances are that no one in that town owns one or has ever owned one unless they are, or were, an arcade operator.

You said 15khz CRT's with component are hard to find.

I said they aren't common, and again, that was a relative statement:

"given that component only became a thing after the DVD format took off in the late 1990s / early 2000s, and even then, it was originally only in high-end TVs, which aren't as common as low-end TVs."

There's some more "bolding" for you, indicating that it's a relative statement.

There is currently 7 Sony Trinitrons with component on my local Craigslist and 3 of them are being offered for free. It's been like this for years. Plus, If you search for Sony Trinitron on ebay, the list of options with component or rgb is endless, like more than I could be bothered to count.

What of it? If you want to do something that's actually relevant to what I posted, count how many CRT TVs you can find without component inputs vs. ones with component inputs, and do it across the whole country.

On the rest, I'm just going to assume you've never actually seen a tri-sync crt arcade monitor. It sounds like you're regurgitating something you read and misunderstood about presentation and broadcast monitors.

Your mere assumption is dismissed.

The vast majority of tri-sync arcade monitors use the same tubes found in regular SD crt tv's of their day. I don't know of any that have a fine pitch like a pc monitor. If they exist at all, it's rare. The two tri-sync arcade monitors I have here use the same .8mm tubes found on late model SD crt tv's. My old curved tri-sync had a .9mm tube like crt tv's from the 90's. It looks nothing like the 0.3 or 0.4mm pitch found on presentation monitors (like an XM29) and broadcast monitors. look at the pics...

There is no requirement for tri-syncs to have a fine pitch to avoid blurring detail. The 640 x 480 vga res is the same as the 640 x 480 interlaced res used on every SD crt TV.

480i looks like crap when rendering computer graphics on a standard 15 KHz monitor or TV. It works okay for NTSC broadcasts, which don't require the clarity of computer graphics. Computer/arcade monitors are intended to display computer graphics and in order to look good at 640 x 480 they need a finer dot pitch than a standard tube. On the other hand, ~320 x 240 looks fine for computer graphics on a standard tube.

It's the frame rate that differs, not the number of lines.

Wrong. The refresh rate doesn't differ, it's the number of lines that differs. 480i for example is ~60 Hz and it only displays 240 lines in each cycle, alternating between the even and odd lines, to create the illusion of 480 lines (which works due to persistence of vision). 480p is ~60 Hz but displays all 480 lines in each cycle.

Advising people to use crt PC monitors instead of arcade monitors is terrible advice. Old arcade games look horrible on them, even if you output 240p / 120hz. They look almost as bad as an LCD. The point of using a CRT in this day an age is to play old games in their native res and refresh rate for an authentic and pleasing experience. You only get that from a 15khz capable crt and, as we've already established, they are easy to find and plentiful.

Is that another joke? I never advised anyone to use a PC monitor of any kind instead of an arcade monitor. I said:

"The only worse RGB CRT option [than that Makvision from Happ that you mentioned] is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz. "

Does the "bolding" help? Since reading obviously isn't your forte, I'll explain it further. Since I said that a CRT PC monitor is even worse than that Makvision arcade monitor you mentioned, I obviously didn't advise anyone to use one instead of an arcade monitor. I would, however, advise someone to, if feasible for them, use an RGB-modded 15 KHz TV with a standard spherical tube instead of that Makvision (or a Trinitron), if they want classic arcade games to look like they originally did in the arcades. In addition to looking right, it will also be way cheaper.

[Mike A]

If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

[Substring]

If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

Thank you for bringing a little humor in such a toxic and trollesque discussion 

[Mike A]

Nah. They both believe in what they are talking about. They are just talking around each other. I fall into that trap too. Everybody does.

[donluca]

^ This.

And I'm still failing at understanding what this thread is doing in here.

[Mike A]

F* you Mike, with a cactus dipped in tabasco, and I'm not talking with you here anyway. You're really an arsehole no way we'd ever have a drink ya c*

Without this thread we wouldn't have gems like this.

[donluca]

Ah! But I'm with you on that one, I'm not against this thread per se, I'm not seeing the point of having it in the GroovyMAME subforum. It would be excellent flame material/cannon fodder in an offtopic section of this forum.

[Substring]

That's admins job to push away the flaming topics in the right section.

[Zebra]

If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

I often make the mistake of thinking the irrefutable truth will change people's opinions even though I know it won't and that it doesn't matter either way... I keep promising myself that I will just ignore it when people spread nonsense. Oh well, it's another new year's resolution.

[MaximRecoil]

If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

I often make the mistake of thinking the irrefutable truth will change people's opinions even though I know it won't and that it doesn't matter either way... I keep promising myself that I will just ignore it when people spread nonsense. Oh well, it's another new year's resolution.

"Irrefutable truth" like claiming that I "advised people to use crt PC monitors instead of arcade monitors" when I did no such thing?

"Irrefutable truth" like claiming that new arcade monitors have always cost $500?

"Irrefutable truth" like claiming "640 x 480 vga res is the same as the 640 x 480 interlaced res used on every SD crt TV. It's the frame rate that differs, not the number of lines" even though, in reality, the refresh rate is the same but 480i never draws more than 240 lines per cycle while 480p draws 480 lines per cycle?

"Irrefutable truth" like claiming I said that I "said arcade monitors are rare" when I said no such thing?

Are those the sort of "irrefutable truths" you're referring to?

In any case, since you decided to resign after your so-called "irrefutable truths" were refuted, your tacit concession on the matter is noted.

[Mike A]

You guys are almost there. Just a few thousand more words. It's going to happen. I can feel it.

[MaximRecoil]

If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

You guys are almost there. Just a few thousand more words. It's going to happen. I can feel it.

Why did you make essentially the same post twice? It wasn't clever the first time, let alone the second (which makes your stab at condescension comically ironic), and it also demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of the point of arguments. "Changing the other's mind" is utterly irrelevant. For example, if there is an argument over whether two plus two equals four or five, does it matter if anyone's mind gets changed? Obviously not. The facts aren't affected in the slightest by someone changing their mind. Arguments are one of the most effective ways of bringing facts to light.

[Mike A]

I wasn't shooting for clever. I just wanted to annoy a couple of blow hards. Mission accomplished. Now continue with you altruistic quest to shine a beacon of light on the facts.

[MaximRecoil]

I wasn't shooting for clever. I just wanted to annoy a couple of blow hards. Mission accomplished. Now continue with you altruistic quest to shine a beacon of light on the facts.

If your goal is to be annoying then you're admittedly a "troll," albeit an ineffectual one (your premature "mission accomplished" declaration notwithstanding). 

[Mike A]

It seems like it is working pretty well so far. I think I proved that you will engage in the dumbest conversation imaginable.

[MaximRecoil]

It seems like it is working pretty well so far.

Your second laughable attempt at a crystal ball reading is dismissed.

I think I proved that you will engage in the dumbest conversation imaginable.

Your non sequitur is dismissed.

[Mike A]

Still going.

[opt2not]

Just catching up with this very subjective thread.
Seems mostly like a cultural and generational debate.

As for the earlier points of ease of building, you new builders got it waaaaay easier than 10+ years ago. Software and hardware options were very limited. We had all kinds of hacks to get things as authentic to the arcade experience as possible. And you know what? People still did it, and this site in particular was way more active and interesting than it is today.

Just look at projects today. You can count the actual intriguing ones on one hand right now. Back then, there were dozens of great projects with more active members. Just look at the stickies Hall of Fame thread. Most of them were from great problem solvers that didn’t have the shortcuts we have today.

You guys are lucky.