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Author Topic: My take on arcade emulation.  (Read 26468 times)

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oliver

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My take on arcade emulation.
« on: November 17, 2019, 04:17:52 am »
Hello people.

I just wanted to share my view on how to go about setting up an arcade emulation machine (using groovymame and crt emu drivers obviously).

I have been talking to a few people, mostly beginners and I often see they usually go for something that i consider too complicated:
Mostly they focus on the cabinet itself (ditching a computer and whatever display the have available), which I find too complicated and not even practical. They need to think about the panel, most of the time some woodwork is involved if you want to reuse an old cab, you need to wire everything up properly, use usb controllers and so on.

My take on it is if you start, the best bet is to go with a simple TV (scart is obviously better) with a decent computer and an old supported ati card and a USB arcade stick or two. A pair of speakers and thats it. Set up win7, then crt emudriver, then mame, then Mala and done...15khz goodness.

I just dont understand why you would go for a full cab....to me its only going to raise all sorts of annoying restrictions.

I am running a trinitron tv  and a I5 4570 sff pc sitting nearby and using a diy dsub15 to scart cable that i made out of 2 vga and scart cables ( I think an UMSA is also good) and 2 usb sticks directly connected to the pc that I can easily move around without the hassle of a heavy cab.

Or maybe my view is outdated i dont know...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 04:33:01 am by oliver »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2019, 04:57:34 am »
(wrong forum for this thread maybe)

Personally I agree with you but probably a lot of people ultimately want the full package, and some see doing a first 'naked' setup before that as a waste of time/effort/money (tho lots of the parts can be reused)

Dunno how the lack of SCART in America and Asia influence their choices also.

TBH I won't be making a full DIY cab ever, finally decided that it's not fitting for my home and habits. I always need modularity and mobility.

However I might source a Virtua Stick Pro one of those days, for the experience because it's cool AF and make it my 'portable cabinet' to use with with all my supergun, Groovy, consoles etc, whether in front of a CRT or a flat panel whatever.  :P

oliver

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2019, 05:12:01 am »
Being myself from France makes sourcing scart tv much easier even if they are getting genocide due to lcd taking over everywhere here now.
Still, I think going for "the full package" is just asking for trouble.
Most of the builds I have seen using full cabs are just plain ugly and ridiculous with more bezel than actual screen real estate to me.
As for the sticks, i have been using a Namco ps1 arcade stick and a tatunoko wii stick with usb adapters and they have been very good. I would not even think of going to a cabinet.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 05:27:01 am by oliver »

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2019, 06:38:11 am »
You're probably right. But that's the view of something with experience.

To me, the process of getting a real cabinet in my house, back in 2007, is one I keep great memories of. I was going through a lot of sh*t at work at the time. I needed to focus on something rewarding and had been reading for months about MAME cabinets. So one day I rented a van with friends and drove 200 km to bring three cabinets home. For the following months I had little time to mess with it but just seeing it in my living room when I went in or out of home put a smile on my face. Like saying: "I don't care, I have a cabinet, f*ck everyone".

Then of course you learn your initial emulation solution is crap, you try to figure out why. Some of your control panel buttons are stuck. Vertical games don't display of feel correct. Installing ScummVM in the cabinet was a terrible idea. The joysticks you have are not ideal for the games you actually want to play. You need to add an internal shelf but you suck at woodwork. Basically you discover the physical cabinet is an initiation, fetish object. Then you start putting more effort on correct emulation and understand that things like vinyls, hiding Windows or animated frontends are secondary.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead of pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2019, 07:26:11 am »
Build a full cab with an arcade monitor. That is the real experience. Everything else is just pretending.

oliver

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2019, 07:47:45 am »
For a newcomer I would strongly advise against it. Even as a more experienced user actually.

I used to own a cab too and it was a pain to deal with. The only real benefit I see of a real arcade over a tv is mainly the picture controls provided by the monitor, I understand the tradeof.
Apart from this, I much prefer the flexibility of a simple setup using a tv and usb sticks, and since I use an emulation PC and not genuine pcb, it looks fine enough.
To me it is the other way around: wanting a real cab is pretentious, but sure you can grab an Astro city and that is certainly better.
Just wanted to share my impressions to spare the hassle to others, letting them know it can be done easily unless they make the wrong decisions.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 07:50:49 am by oliver »

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2019, 08:15:29 am »
I built my MAME cab, and I haven't had to mess with it after the first week of strangers using it. The cab runs without complaint every time I fire it up.

Pretentious? ---display unending love for my bottom---.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2019, 08:30:57 am »
For a newcomer I would strongly advise against it. Even as a more experienced user actually.

That's the only point I would agree on; lots of this stuff is just extremely hard for the majority, even just going around learning to build a basic working GroovyMAME setup is quite daunting and indeed can provide hellish times if things go wrong.
So a full cab is just several times more stuff to learn and do.

Many regulars in this relatively ancient and small community have above-average technical and computer skills, some are even full-fledged technicians, engineers, developers, and trust me it's a demographics that always, ALWAYS denies the obvious skills gap fact between them and the crushing majority of people in society, and that it's not a gap that not anyone can close with 'effort, will, and patience', because a lot of the required skills and knowledge are only acquired with time and training, but not the likes to learn how to make noodles necklaces or play UNO, the likes ONLY people who've had computers and machines since they were tweens/teenagers, or studied/trained/worked in a technical/computer field actually possess.
We're talking decades of difference.
Sure SOME n00bs manage to close the gap if they're at least slightly enlighted amateurs, or go through intense time/money investment going non-stop through trial-and-error with frequent support begging, but today I realize those successful n00bs represent only about 1/10 attempting newcomers, which you could expand to maybe 2/10, 2.5/10 if you include the semi-successes and halfway dropouts.

So I think it's good advice to direct most n00bs who very likely aren't from the geek/nerd niche demographics, to the simplest and most straightforward solutions first:

- In Europe most SCART TV sets are indeed no different from a 15khz arcade monitor, they're still sourceable for cheap if not free.
Going with that and a sure-working PC build for Groovy (no APU or transcoding asking-for-trouble hardware), plus pre-made VGA>Scart cable or UMSA, are the ideal '1st build for 15khz baby'. I might even add: go W7 if it's a dedicated build that will stay offline.

- In the US it's tougher if you want a RGBs CRT you have to seek either an arcade monitor or a broadcast one, though correct me if I'm wrong but some RGB>YUV transcoders work well for consumer sets that feature a Component in (?)

- then of course an decent USB arcade stick easily moddable with 'pro' parts.

For the already experienced and skilled crowd this may sound like 'too easy' or a waste of time and money that would be better used going directly for the full-fledged experience, but for the majority of poor weak little n00bs I think it's the best way of acquiring an experience without crashing miserably due to a too-brutal learning curve.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 08:33:46 am by schmerzkaufen »

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2019, 08:38:01 am »
I have no technical or trades background at all. I am part owner of a wholesale company. I built my first cab a long time ago. I had to borrow a circular saw. I had no router. I had a plug in drill and some hand tools.

I found the Lucian plans online. I built a decent looking cab. It wasn't difficult. Using a keyboard encoder these days is not much more difficult than using usb sticks. I think some of you guys severely overstate how

difficult this stuff is.

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2019, 08:50:00 am »
People get themselves into trouble when they want to do all of the unnecessary stuff right out of the gate.
They want to light their controls up like a Christmas Tree.
They want front end animations and videos and all kinds of nonsense.
They obsess over hiding any evidence of windows. Nobody even knows my cab runs windows. It is like magic. I turn it on before people arrive.
All of that stuff can be cool(usually not)...later on. Just get a cab running with a proper CRT, controls and emulation. The rest is just optional window dressing.

oliver

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2019, 09:10:22 am »
My post is more about the fact newbies tend to focus too much on the cab when it is actually not strictly required and it actually increases the chance of issues.
In Europe finding a scart crt tv will be easier, and grabbing a proper arcade monitor will be harder than in the US i beleve.

The total cost might not even come that far off of an Astro if they decide to go the wooden diy kit route + they will have trouble integrating a true arcade monitor inside of the cab (and dealing with supplying power to it).

Being too concerned about hiding the underlying os and adding bling is yet another mistake newbies make indeed as I think this is even more unnecessary.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 09:21:18 am by oliver »

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2019, 09:21:11 am »
Quote
they will have trouble integrated a true arcade monitor inside of the cab (and dealing with supplying power to it).

If this is the kind of stuff you are going to come up with I would suggest a simpler hobby.

Powering an arcade monitor is far easier than configuring a PC with GroovyMAME.

oliver

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2019, 09:25:51 am »
You are comparing two different things. Hooking up power to a tv is easier than hooking up power to an arcade monitor.
Setting up groovymame is actually required for both full cab/tv setups and if said people cant get that running its game over for both routes.

I mean, ok, I am able to connect all the controls to a keyb encoder no problem, but why the heck would I when I can just connect the stick directly over usb and play in my sofa???
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 09:49:23 am by oliver »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2019, 10:16:06 am »
I think some of you guys severely overstate how difficult this stuff is.

It's the other way around, this community is often in denial of out-there reality, it's a bit of a conservative bubble, with time that only grew more obvious for me.

It's not always a question of aiming too high with extra fluff, even the most elementary steps are often very alien to people, especially those who grew up with tech that requires zero handy/electrical experience nor tools, nor any actual computer knowledge (that's most ppl who are like under 35 if not older, that's how far away demographics are from 'old tech', and even more dramatic considering people who engaged in even moderate-skilled tech activites/learning have always been only a small portion of the population to begin)

I know this community's frequent typical reactions, regulars will line up to state the same basic message:
- I have no particular tech/IT skills!
- It's not too hard I did it
- It's your fault n00b you are the problem

But I know it's mostly BS, you have some tell you that and then later casually drop how they were making their own machines and programs in high-school back in 1995 or something. If there's one meme that fits BYOAC it is "okay boomer"  ;D

No really, teasing aside I only agree to recommend the simplest, most straightforward short-route for the beginners as a first experience, safe, no extras at all.
Because going straight for the full thing today just doesn't fit the demographics, and not just skills-wise but also in terms of investment (also depending where you live)
So in a way...we kind of agree Mike, just not in regards to what to aim for.

If this is the kind of stuff you are going to come up with I would suggest a simpler hobby.
No they go to RetroArch instead, or buy emu-toys online like that superb Capcom stick or a 1-Up.  :P

n00bs who struggle are often confronted to either too laconic/short answers to their questions (skilled person provides quick answer assuming the requester is at a certain level of skills/knowledge/understanding) or so advanced they're overwhelmed.
And if the n00b loses his cool he'll be somewhat ostracized, receive the cold shoulder/silent treatment because the old dogs at some point will begin to see him as an annoyance/parasite.

To avoid that all n00bs need is the clearest, most to-the-point documentation landing point for the simplest most direct build route first, written and presented in terms and fashion that can be the most universally understood. (no talking in command lines like mamedev do, more pictures to illustrate, direction towards safest/surest hardware and sotware references in place of giving general directions, that kind of stuff)
The problem is information and communication, the recent FAQ-that-never-was dead thread is an only just more salient example of that continued malaise.

And the people best-suited to create better conditions are the most skilled, but unfortunately likely the ones who least want to do just that.  :-\
Because that's additional work, and boring at that, but also because they long lost the ability to speak/think in layman terms.

Ideally even if they don't say it out loud, it's the same in all niche-tech-oriented communities, they would likely stay a small group between skilled-gentlemen without nervous n00bs around disturbing the peace, it's almost like a cultures clash.
Mamedev are the most vivid example of geeks/nerds going full-isolationism (don't worry BYOAC is far from that sad example, mamedev literally despise the end users base like vermin) with the consequences honest people know about.

TL;DR building a cabinet, or even a non-cab GroovyMAME setup with facultative steps/extras, should be discouraged for first-timers, or not without giving them huge red flags warnings.
Instead n00bs should be pushed to a simplest/safest basic/naked type of build solution, of which explanation is super-refined for the broadest demographics layman understanding and accessibility. Kind of a solid landing, spine, for all newcomers especially the unskilled majority

In that way, again I agree with oliver.

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2019, 11:03:24 am »
Well. I guess I just don't agree with you that younger people are all helpless and stupid. :dunno

oliver

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2019, 11:41:16 am »
not my point at all.

Just saying for newcomers, Id rather advise them to go bare system: RGB capable tv (component ones are probably acceptable too using an vga to component converter), a PC, old ati card, a rgb to scart cable, usb fightstick, and some time to spend on the software setup. This will give them a good enough thing that purists will not acknoledge as a proper arcade machine but theyll still be able to play most games at the right resolution and refresh rate.

Anything involving a real cab will be more complicated and most people will probably encounter issues at either woodworking, electric/electronic stuff or computer literacy because fewer people will be good at the 3 of them, unless they buy a brand new Acrade cab, have it setup by a pro given they are willing to spend a lot more.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2019, 11:56:17 am »
Playing real arcade games on a TV with the wrong controls just sucks. I guess that doesn't matter as much if you are younger than 40.

Most people under forty don't have the real experience to compare to.

Putting your quarter up on the marquee retainer because you have the next game. Rooting through the coin return slots for spare quarters. All of the good stuff.

I guess I shouldn't argue with you. The vast majority of new people to this hobby just want something that plays a bajillion games without any regard to controls.


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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2019, 12:00:31 pm »
Quote
Dunno how the lack of SCART in America and Asia influence their choices also.

I'm sure it's a key factor.

But I'd say fetichism is even above that. I've been meaning to make an article or something for years about how standard cabs (either, Western or Japanese) are far from being the best solutions regarding ergonomics, which should be the main aspect for anybody wanting to play over half an hour, but in the meantime, we even got the mini-cab craze, so it's now a whatever.

Said that, I most likely have suggested like a dozen times on my own forum that a "semi-cab" is mandatory. Control panels (we obviously assume that proper arcade sticks are the only valid option for proper arcade play) NEED a fixed, thrust-proof state, and you aren't getting it with just placing your everyday arcade stick over a desk. Height and isolation (from the monitor) are also important, etc. etc.

So I can see why cabs are gaining popularity, especially Japanese ones if aesthetics matters in your place -- they give the impression of having everything at once, but again, the people tend to miss they're designed to save space first and foremost.





Quote
However I might source a Virtua Stick Pro one of those days, for the experience because it's cool AF and make it my 'portable cabinet' to use with with all my supergun, Groovy, consoles etc, whether in front of a CRT or a flat panel whatever.  :P

If you mean this:



...I have it since its release and I couldn't recommend it with the price it has reached these days. I couldn't recommend it in general, actually, since it has one of the biggest problems of Japanese cabs -- two adult players are just not comfortable with that distance. I also dislike how close stick and buttons are each other (sadly, that's a common issue with solo panels too), and, while the Seimitsu stick is great, the factory buttons are far from good and swapping them is a real pain, though I'm sure you're already aware of this.





Quote
To me, the process of getting a real cabinet in my house, back in 2007, is one I keep great memories of. I was going through a lot of sh*t at work at the time. I needed to focus on something rewarding and had been reading for months about MAME cabinets. So one day I rented a van with friends and drove 200 km to bring three cabinets home. For the following months I had little time to mess with it but just seeing it in my living room when I went in or out of home put a smile on my face. Like saying: "I don't care, I have a cabinet, f*ck everyone".

Then of course you learn your initial emulation solution is crap, you try to figure out why. Some of your control panel buttons are stuck. Vertical games don't display of feel correct. Installing ScummVM in the cabinet was a terrible idea. The joysticks you have are not ideal for the games you actually want to play. You need to add an internal shelf but you suck at woodwork. Basically you discover the physical cabinet is an initiation, fetish object.

Too bad you didn't know me by then (or did you?).

« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 12:53:10 pm by Recapnation »

oliver

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2019, 12:15:18 pm »
Playing real arcade games on a TV with the wrong controls just sucks. I guess that doesn't matter as much if you are younger than 40.

Most people under forty don't have the real experience to compare to.

Putting your quarter up on the marquee retainer because you have the next game. Rooting through the coin return slots for spare quarters. All of the good stuff.

I guess I shouldn't argue with you. The vast majority of new people to this hobby just want something that plays a bajillion games without any regard to controls.

Sure the coin mech is obviously not there, but the controls can certainly be mapped properly as long as the game is using 1 stick and 6 buttons/player which is what my stick has. mame allows for control mapping by system type, so its pretty easy to have correct controls without having to adjust them for every game. It is the same as using a keyboard encoder.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2019, 12:24:14 pm »
Quote
its pretty easy to have correct controls without having to adjust them for every game

You do not have the correct controls. You just think you do.

We are not going to agree. That is okay.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2019, 12:28:48 pm »
Well. I guess I just don't agree with you that younger people are all helpless and stupid. :dunno
Where-did-I-ever-state-so ?

They know different things, do stuff different ways that's all, most people in society aren't tech-savvy geeks, handy men/artisans with tools, or technicians/developers.
Yet most play games/want to play games as much and as well as possible, that at least is a constant.

It's refusing to admit before them that indeed this stuff is not quite accessible-enough to the average people and not really thought and documented-enough for laymen users, and then telling them stuff like 'find another hobby' that is somewhat condescending and taking them for idiots.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2019, 12:39:52 pm »
I helped a child build a bar top cab.

I helped a teenager build a full sized cab. He didn't know the first thing about any of this stuff.

Anyone can learn how to do this stuff. We are not special people.

This discussion isn't going anywhere.

There is merit to keeping things simple. I completely agree.

I vehemently disagree that building a full sized cab makes things complicated.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 12:43:19 pm by Mike A »

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2019, 12:52:06 pm »
"Full-size" is pointless and even counternarrative if you live in Europe, that's essentially the point here, I'd say.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2019, 01:14:46 pm »
I helped a child build a bar top cab.

I helped a teenager build a full sized cab. He didn't know the first thing about any of this stuff.
Massive difference vs. doing this alone.

Anyone can learn how to do this stuff. We are not special people
Individuals with enough experience and useful knwoledge and skills in the required fields, are automatically special people.

The core membership of this community is pretty much made of such individuals...

This discussion isn't going anywhere.
...individuals who refuse to admit some facts that are as obvious as an elephant in a tunnel.
Like what most in reality know/can/have.

It's just as I said, this is what I've experienced several times in this community. It's a bit of a bubble that people try to conserve in fear it will pop.

There is merit to keeping things simple. I completely agree.

I vehemently disagree that building a full sized cab makes things complicated.
Contradictory.

For some building the cab/furniture/soldering might not be too hard, for some it's the PC+emulation part that'll go smoothly.
But you'll hardly find anyone who's a noob in the required knowledge/skills domains that will be at ease with all steps, some will even be giant hurdles.
Also from scratch it's quite a bit of money depending on what you aim for and if you don't have any of the parts and tools.
For many people it's just an unrealistic goal.

In short: more complicated.

For me this conversation is very much getting somewhere!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 01:17:41 pm by schmerzkaufen »

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2019, 01:39:44 pm »
Quote
Massive difference vs. doing this alone.
Nobody has to do it alone. There are hours and hours of YouTube videos. There are places to take woodworking classes. There are forums like this one.
You would have to be nuts to try to do it alone.

Is this some kind of European thing where only special people are capable of doing things?



MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2019, 01:48:32 pm »
not my point at all.

Just saying for newcomers, Id rather advise them to go bare system: RGB capable tv (component ones are probably acceptable too using an vga to component converter), a PC, old ati card, a rgb to scart cable, usb fightstick, and some time to spend on the software setup. This will give them a good enough thing that purists will not acknoledge as a proper arcade machine but theyll still be able to play most games at the right resolution and refresh rate.

Anything involving a real cab will be more complicated and most people will probably encounter issues at either woodworking, electric/electronic stuff or computer literacy because fewer people will be good at the 3 of them, unless they buy a brand new Acrade cab, have it setup by a pro given they are willing to spend a lot more.

SCART TVs are effectively non-existent in North America, and CRTs with component (YPbPr) inputs aren't common, given that component only became a thing after the DVD format took off in the late 1990s / early 2000s, and even then, it was originally only in high-end TVs, which aren't as common as low-end TVs. On top of that, not all CRT TVs with component inputs will sync to a 15 KHz-over-component signal, because component was seen as a way of allowing for progressive scan from DVD players, which is a 31 KHz signal. The TV manufacturers figured that if you wanted 15 KHz, composite or S-video was good enough. It wasn't until the last few years of CRT production that lower end CRT TVs started appearing with component inputs, and fortunately, those usually will sync to 15 KHz-over-component (mainly because 15 KHz is as high as they can go to begin with). Furthermore, RGB-to-component transcoders tend to be not cheap and are also often problematic.

In 2019, in North America, there is no readily accessible path to natively displaying a 15 KHz RGB video signal on a CRT. You either have to find a broadcast or presentation monitor, neither of which are common, or an arcade monitor, which isn't common either, relatively speaking. Or, if you don't mind a small display (12" or so), some old home computer monitors, such as from Commodore, are 15 KHz RGB capable. Of course, those aren't common either.

Ironically, the cheapest and easiest way of doing it for most people in North America is probably to find an old generic JAMMA cabinet (like a Dynamo HS-1) which already has an arcade monitor in it. The cabinet will probably be beat up and the monitor will probably have screen burn and need new electrolytic capacitors at the very least. On the plus side, it provides an authentic arcade game playing experience and you can easily run real JAMMA arcade boardsets in it if you want to.

I wouldn't bother with a MAME TV setup even if RGB TVs were common around here. For that experience, MAME on a regular PC monitor is good enough. Being able to play the games on an arcade cabinet with an arcade monitor is the very thing that makes the hassle worth it in the first place. Also, joysticks aren't worth using IMO unless they are mounted to something that doesn't move, such as the control panel of a 300-pound arcade cabinet.

Also, you mentioned sitting on your couch. Most people's TVs are a fair distance from their couch (i.e., far more than ~20 inches away), and that greatly reduces the perceived benefit of RGB. Unless you're close enough to clearly see the texture created by the shadow mask, it doesn't feel like an arcade game.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 01:50:43 pm by MaximRecoil »

Recapnation

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2019, 02:07:26 pm »
Quote
I wouldn't bother with a MAME TV setup even RGB TVs were common around here. For that experience, MAME on a regular PC monitor is good enough. Being able to play the games on an arcade cabinet with an arcade monitor is the very thing that makes the hassle worth it in the first place.

You sound precisely like if you don't actually know what an "RGB TV" is.




Quote
Also, joysticks aren't worth using IMO unless they are mounted to something that doesn't move, such as the control panel of a 300-pound arcade cabinet.

I agree there, though. (Moreover, I myself meant that with the "semi-cab" thing. Not that you need 300 pounds, anyway, but if you're building something, a desk which does this is mandatory, especially if you don't game alone.)




Quote
Also, you mentioned sitting on your couch. Most people's TVs are a fair distance from their couch (i.e., far more than ~20 inches away), and that greatly reduces the perceived benefit of RGB. Unless you're close enough to clearly see the texture created by the shadow mask, it doesn't feel like an arcade game.

Wholeheartedly agree there too. But too close as an arcade cabinet forces (with a big-enough monitor), is not the best for perception either.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2019, 02:15:00 pm »
Is this some kind of European thing where only special people are capable of doing things?

Alright with this I think with you at least I won't continue this conversation.

-----

@Recap: yes of course that would be a completely silly unreasonable purchase just for the looks.  :P

In regards to what you said, you know, somehow related I've had the idea of instead of roman-fleuve tutorials and FAQs, school-case practical single-guides like:

"here described and illustrated with known working parts how to build and configure the archetypical Groovy 15khz setup"
"here how to build and configure the archetypal 31khz Groovy setup"
'here how to build and configure the archetypal LCD groovy setup"
etc

With no references to extras nor parts that would lead to more specific configurations or potential trouble.

Anything different, deviating from a guide's primary and only subject, would go to its own specific single-case guide (with copy-paste from other guides allowed where logically and safely applying of course)

There would be just a simple table of contents leading to the guides period. Kind of a mix between FAQ and general guide.
High maintenance method of course, but I'd happily participate.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 02:18:05 pm by schmerzkaufen »

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2019, 02:30:23 pm »
Well you keep talking about special people all other time. I thought maybe that is some kind of cultural thing. :dunno

schmerzkaufen

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2019, 02:35:23 pm »
Is refusing to hear about any specifics, details or nuances that challenge a tunnel-visioned conception of reality also a cultural American thing ?  :dunno

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2019, 03:20:49 pm »
You sound precisely like if you don't actually know what an "RGB TV" is.

What are you talking about? I know exactly what an RGB TV is, and nothing I said indicated otherwise. I have eleven 15 KHz RGB CRT arcade monitors in my house (three 19" Happ Vision Pros that I bought new in 2007, five 19" Nintendo/Sanyo monitors [three 20-EZVs and two 20-Z2AWs], one 19" Electrohome G07, one 19" Wells-Gardner K7000, and one Wells-Gardner K4900), four of which are currently in working arcade cabinets with original hardware. Not only do I own arcade monitors, but I've done plenty of work on them too (tube swaps, flyback transformer swaps, electrolytic capacitor swaps, convergence and purity adjustments, et cetera).

A 15 KHz RGB CRT TV is the same thing as a traditional 15 KHz arcade monitor, with the addition of a TV tuner and usually some other parts (such as an audio amplifier and speaker(s), an outer shell, provisions for other types of video signals such as composite, S-video, and of course, RF, which is inherently part of the analog TV tuner). 15 KHz RGB CRT TVs never existed in North America in the consumer sector, though with newer CRT TVs which have an on-screen-display you can usually hack an RGB signal into it, because the IC that generates the OSD typically does it with an RGB signal, so you can feed RGB into those circuits.

The benefits of 15 KHz RGB with classic video games aren't great enough for me to bother with the hassles associated with 15 KHz from a modern PC. It will still feel like I'm playing a console game if it's not in an arcade cabinet, and for that, MAME on my CRT PC monitor is good enough. An arcade cabinet combined with a 15 KHz RGB CRT is what ups the benefits enough to make it worth the hassle, and indeed, I've recently done so in my Street Fighter II cabinet (Dynamo HS-1). I've only loaded the CPS-1, CPS-2, and CPS-3 Street Fighter games in it, so the original controls are 100% correct for all of them, plus I can easily switch back to the original Street Fighter II: The World Warrior boardset whenever I want to, simply by disconnecting the JAMMA card edge connector from the PC adapter I made, and plugging it back onto the original boardset. They all look perfect on the still-like-new Happ Vision Pro, indistinguishable from the look of original boardsets.

Quote
Wholeheartedly agree there too. But too close as an arcade cabinet forces (with a big-enough monitor), is not the best for perception either.

In North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor, neither of which are too big for up-close viewing.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 03:32:51 pm by MaximRecoil »

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2019, 03:51:53 pm »
I'd like to feed the troll too ...

Capcom arcade stick: i'd never buy it, ethically speaking. It just blew up de Final Burn Alpha dev team since the original FBA author kinda "sold" FBA, which just totally shocked all other devs that forked with FB Neo. I must admit I'm a GPL respectful person, I know one of the devs, so this panel is a big NO for me.

Now regarding the topic, I think people go for what they think easiest for them and consider the most difficult parts subsidiary. For example: I'm an IT guy, and my hands are much more efficient on a keyboard than doing some wood work. So whichever project I've started so far, all the computer/romset/even electronics parts were ready way before opening the toolbox and take the saw.

Despite this being my own experience, I tend to believe people do first what they are most able to, considering a forum/youtube video/FAQ/friend/premade stuff they can buy online will do the trick for the next big part if building a cab.

In the end, nothing beats the feeling of playing on a cab, eventually using your elbows to prevent your friend from launching that combo that would end the round or score one last goal. It's just so much funnier to share a control panel than a couch to play <2P game you like> with a friend!

Last word: for those of us who grew up watching others play their game, put a coin on the control panel to show you're the one who'd play next, ask the one playing "mind if I join" on a TMNT cab or Captain Commando/Double Dragon/Dragonninja/etc ... That's part of the myth that goes with owning (and crafting) your own cab. And it's priceless

keilmillerjr

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2019, 04:22:25 pm »
Don’t understand why one would want a full size cab? You need to have experienced the arcade when it was a the coolest place to go. Standing up, browsing, watching other kids, lining up your quarter, short gameplay, interaction.

Want an arcade cabinet without doing the work? Just buy a real one. :dunno

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2019, 05:22:59 pm »
Is refusing to hear about any specifics, details or nuances that challenge a tunnel-visioned conception of reality also a cultural American thing ?  :dunno
Looks like I hit the nail on the head.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2019, 05:45:53 pm »
Looks like you're just a dumb guy being a d**k because people pointed at his contradictions and stubbornness and he can't deal with that. Even though your attitude isn't that of everyone (thankfully) the ideology is pretty much the standard average here. No putting into question, no ripples, blinders firmly attached. No surprise this community feels so sclerosed then, it's like a conservative boomers club, not a single change in views nor new ideas in ages, barely a pulse, dust accumulating. Pity.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 05:50:19 pm by schmerzkaufen »

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2019, 06:03:27 pm »
That sounds more like your attitude.
You just sound like a special guy being a dick.
Take your blinders off and see another perspective.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2019, 06:11:31 pm »
NO U

Dude we're so in tune, on for a tango ?  :lol

Recapnation

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2019, 07:40:05 pm »
Quote
In regards to what you said, you know, somehow related I've had the idea of instead of roman-fleuve tutorials and FAQs, school-case practical single-guides like:

"here described and illustrated with known working parts how to build and configure the archetypical Groovy 15khz setup"
"here how to build and configure the archetypal 31khz Groovy setup"
'here how to build and configure the archetypal LCD groovy setup"
etc

With no references to extras nor parts that would lead to more specific configurations or potential trouble.

Anything different, deviating from a guide's primary and only subject, would go to its own specific single-case guide (with copy-paste from other guides allowed where logically and safely applying of course)

There would be just a simple table of contents leading to the guides period. Kind of a mix between FAQ and general guide.
High maintenance method of course, but I'd happily participate.

I'm not the best person for that, but that would totally kill the little time I have these days for this stuff anyway, I'm afraid. Half the chapters at Eiusdemmodi's documentation index have been under construction for ages now for a reason... But for a 15-kHz GM set-up, it's basically done, isn't it? As this thread shows, I don't believe that most people would have interest in following any recommendation regarding controllers or any other aspect unrelated to the video thing.





Quote
In North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor

I'm sure that's far from reality. I'm way more used to the Japanese scene, but if even in Europe 29'' monitors were the norm already in the early 90's, the US couldn't be any less. That's the size most Japanese cabs used even before the 90's, anyway, and the one accepted as optimal also for vertical usage (given that they need to give the two players the best possible field of view). But 29'' is too big for the 40 cm of distance you get at most.

That's just an aspect, anyhow, of why I believe that arcade cabs are overrated due to nostalgia, fetichism or just plain ignorance. Particularly the Western samples. But, at the same time, I understand that they're most likely the easiest way to get a good-enough set-up, at least, if you don't live in Europe. Getting a good desk...:




(not the best panel there, but to get an idea)

...is not exactly cheap or easy.





Quote
In the end, nothing beats the feeling of playing on a cab, eventually using your elbows to prevent your friend from launching that combo that would end the round or score one last goal. It's just so much funnier to share a control panel than a couch to play <2P game you like> with a friend!

Last word: for those of us who grew up watching others play their game, put a coin on the control panel to show you're the one who'd play next, ask the one playing "mind if I join" on a TMNT cab or Captain Commando/Double Dragon/Dragonninja/etc ... That's part of the myth that goes with owning (and crafting) your own cab. And it's priceless

Those are basically the reasons which one would find to avoid game centers, if you ask me -- a [good] game deserves to be played with some intentness and less annoyances. And the social aspect is lost if it's in your house, where you aren't allowing strangers. And yep; I grew up going to the arcades too, but soon learned that I needed the games at home too, ended up buying an AES when the best thing you could get for it at the time was Magician Lord. Believe me -- you DON'T want the sound of nobody's coin being put on your control panel when you're trying to kill the frogs before they transform at stage 5 with one single credit.


(Note: Not trying to be a contrarian here. Have been saying stuff like this for years.)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 08:33:57 pm by Recapnation »

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2019, 08:36:26 pm »
NO U

Dude we're so in tune, on for a tango ?  :lol
If you are ever in Chicago send me a PM. I will buy you a few beers and we can debate this stuff like civilized drunks.

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2019, 11:42:10 pm »
Quote
In North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor

I'm sure that's far from reality.

It doesn't matter that you're sure.

Quote
I'm way more used to the Japanese scene, but if even in Europe 29'' monitors were the norm already in the early 90's, the US couldn't be any less.

Not only could the US be any less, but it was less. As I said before, in North America, nearly all arcade machines made during the CRT era had either a 19" or 25" monitor. Midway cabinets (e.g., Mortal Kombat and its sequels, NBA Jam, etc.) had a 25" monitor. The three types of cabinets that Street Fighter II: Champion Edition and its sequels/prequels typically appeared in all had a 25" monitor (Dynamo HS-5, Capcom "Big Blue", and 3-KOAM Z-back). The original SFII (The World Warrior) was only sold as a kit, but its bezel was marked on the back with guide lines showing where to cut for a Dynamo HS-1/HS-2 cabinet (19" monitor), or a Dynamo HS-5/HS-8/HS-9 cabinet (25" monitor):





SNK Neo Geo cabinets also had a 25" monitor.

One of the few exceptions I can think of off the top of my head is the Dynamo "Showcase" cabinet (HS-15), which had a 34" monitor. But HS-15s had a massive footprint which placed the player significantly farther away from the monitor than usual, and they were far from typical. The only one I ever saw/played on location had Street Fighter Alpha installed in it, in 1996:



Prior to the early 1990s, 19" was by far the most common size arcade monitor in North America.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 11:49:44 pm by MaximRecoil »