Watchmen (HBO Series)

[Howard_Casto]

Ok Game of Thrones is over and the Walking Dead has went so far off the rails I don't even watch it anymore so I guess this is the show to talk about.  I liked the first episode, but there's a huge problem with this series... namely you have to be fully versed in the original comic book series to understand half of it.  No the movie won't cut it either as this seems to be a direct sequel to the books, which differ a decent amount.  If you haven't read the books you aren't going to understand about the raining squid, or the references to the minutemen or the electric meter in the beat up old pickup or any of it really.  Hopefully they will explain a bit of it in future episodes because if not the ratings might tank on this one. 

At first glance the show seems so divorced from the source material that I almost fail to see the point of even calling it watchmen.  It looks like Ozymandias is in the show and Dr. Manhattan, but the rest would be too old to make any significant appearance (The original Watchmen takes place in the mid 80's, and the bulk of the heroes were middle-aged and washed up even then.)  On the other hand, seeing the fallout and inevitable failure of Oz's master plan might be the entire point of the series. 

[pbj]

This series feels completely unnecessary.  For all the griping people do about the movie, it’s a good adaptation.

[Howard_Casto]

Dear god it isn't.  It takes all the content added in ironically as biting social commentary at face value and just glosses over the parts that would be too dark or wierd for a wide release film.  Zack Snyder is a moron... I wouldn't trust him to watch my pet rock. 

I agree about the series though... I'm not sure if we really need this.  I do find it interesting that everyone tried to save the world in their own way and in the very first episode it becomes clear that they all failed in their own specific way.  Rorschach was a moral absolutist, much like myself.  He thought that his manifesto would expose the corruption of Oz's plan allowing people to think for themselves.  It's apparent that the only people that believed him are racist right wing nutjobs, latching on to his somewhat right-wing political views instead of the fact that he was, at his core, a decent man trying to do the right thing.  So now his words are being twisted around to champion white supremacy.  Dr. Manhattan decided to divorce himself from humanity, fearing that his interference was causing more harm than good.  Yeah judging by everything that's going on that went real well.  Oz thought he could tell a lie that would never be discovered, ultimately resulting in a lasting world peace.  Of course this didn't work either and if nothing else a very brutal civil war seems to have been raging ever since.  Yeah and now there's random squid monster rain, so there's that.  Night Owl II created a bunch of weapons meant to non-violently take down criminals only for the police to appropriate it 30 years later and some coked-up hick police chief to use the tech to straight up murder some fleeing suspects.  For that reason alone I'll keep watching for now... only to see how bad of a mess they all made. 

[pbj]

So, I've been hearing for like 20 years about what a subversive genius that Alan Moore is.  I'll admit that by the time I got to Watchmen it was probably in the "Seinfeld isn't funny" region because of the influence it had.  If you're gonna be bitter about the squid there's nothing I can do for you.   


I liked the movie From Hell, I'm passingly familiar with the major Jack the Ripper suspects, and I finally sat down and read the comic and the author notes.  And it was ridiculous "so deep" crap like the house number was a reference to the number of stab wounds, the street name was the last name of a suspect, and so on.  It did help me understand a few things in the movie better.


His Swamp Thing cycle I've been unable to finish.  Page after page of the swamp thing swimming around and looking mystical.


Graphic novels may not be for me.  My last purchase was Alone by Christophe Chabouté and at one point I think it was 30 straight pages of seagulls flying around a lighthouse.  It did eventually wrap up nicely but it was an exercise in perseverance.

[Howard_Casto]

I will agree 100% that Alan Moore is overrated..... except for Watchmen.....  If you let each issue percolate in your mind a while before going to the next you'll realize it's, bar none the best comic book series ever written.  It takes on the whole "does Batman actually make it worse in Gotham?"  argument head on and doesn't pull any punches in the process.  It really challenges all the main superhero archetypes  in the DC universe really... which kind of makes it nuts that DC pulled the characters into DC universe proper... it's almost like they don't even have a superficial understanding of the books or something. 

[Mr. Peabody]

Watchmen was a dynamic farce of comics, superheroes, saving humanity, and the 80s. Now everyone wants stories - and Today is a terrible source from which to draw.

(note the post time)

[nitrogen_widget]

White supremacist biker gang types were so 80's and 90's in TV and movies.
didn't realize they were still relevant.

[Howard_Casto]

Umm.... have you turned on the news in the past 3 or 4 years? 

[nitrogen_widget]

Umm.... have you turned on the news in the past 3 or 4 years?

I have, but none of them ride bikes.
They wear all black, mask themselves, start riots and burn stuff in the streets.

seems more like people without jobs instead of crazed biker dude white supremacists.

most people I know and see who ride bikes are more like:

[pbj]

Yeah, well, Tim Allen did hard time for cocaine smuggling....

[Howard_Casto]

Not sure where this tangent came from.  They aren't a biker gang on the show, just a bunch of white trash.  Regardless, my point was white supremacists as a villain is very fitting in our times considering their resurgence. 

[nitrogen_widget]

Oh Lordy.
Wasn’t trying to trigger pixel.

Just wanted to point out the white supremacist biker gang thing is boring.
Yes they don’t ride motorcycles but they look the part.
Though you could argue inbred rednecks which has also been done to death.
There are other more relevant groups to make the bad guys.

I’ll give it a few episodes but right now I don’t even care why squids fall from the sky or even intrigued by the weird old dude you uses a typewriter while getting a sponge bath.
Though good for him.
Living the dream I guess.

[saint]

No politics and religion please. I don't care what side of the fence you're coming down on, it never ends well so please keep it elsewhere.

Some leeway when discussing a fiction show, but diving into real world P&R isn't allowed.

To stave off the rules-lawyering:

- nitrogen_widget's comment that white biker gangs is a boring plot point due to lack of relevance in current society is acceptable, it's a meta comment on the issue, and not a discussion on the merits of white biker gangs in real life.

- Howard's comment that white supremacists is a valid plot point due to current circumstances is acceptable, because whether you believe it's an issue or you don't, as was just proven in this thread, it is a current topic in our society, and so referring to its place in fiction is fine. Howard's comment was essentially a meta comment on the issue.

- Debating whether or not it's a real concern in real life is not acceptable. Take that somewhere else please.

Thanks!

[yotsuya]

No politics and religion please. I don't care what side of the fence you're coming down on, it never ends well so please keep it elsewhere.

Some leeway when discussing a fiction show, but diving into real world P&R isn't allowed.

To stave off the rules-lawyering:

- nitrogen_widget's comment that white biker gangs is a boring plot point due to lack of relevance in current society is acceptable, it's a meta comment on the issue, and not a discussion on the merits of white biker gangs in real life.

- Howard's comment that white supremacists is a valid plot point due to current circumstances is acceptable, because whether you believe it's an issue or you don't, as was just proven in this thread, it is a current topic in our society, and so referring to its place in fiction is fine. Howard's comment was essentially a meta comment on the issue.

- Debating whether or not it's a real concern in real life is not acceptable. Take that somewhere else please.

Thanks!

Thanks, Saint!

[nitrogen_widget]

Ok, Jeremy Irons' origin play has turned it around for me.
could of done without the blue cast member but, whatever.

This episode was much better than the first I think.

[Howard_Casto]

I was going to say.. old man Oz is stealing the show in every scene.  I figured all of those servants were genetically engineered considering his interest in genetics from the comics, but the play confirmed it.  They had to put the blue dong in there though... it's not Watchmen without uncomfortable blue dong.  It also appears that the other old man was probably the Hangman from the American Hero Story clips.... at least that's what the foreshadowing is leaning towards. 

[pbj]

Well, the cool black lady has an awesome car, so it’s got that going for it.  I watched both episodes, it’s growing on me but not sure what this has to do with the comic book.  HBO seems dead set on putting a hairless dong at half chub in the middle of my screen anytime I watch one of their series.  The Gemstones show got me on that, too.

Everything wheelchair man says is literally true, so he’s Hooded Justice.  And I guess Dr. Manhattan must be disguised as a person. 

Snorting cocaine at a dinner party with kids and nobody bats an eye?  More weird stuff to come from that relationship.

[Drnick]

I was going to say.. old man Oz is stealing the show in every scene.  I figured all of those servants were genetically engineered considering his interest in genetics from the comics, but the play confirmed it.  They had to put the blue dong in there though... it's not Watchmen without uncomfortable blue dong.  It also appears that the other old man was probably the Hangman from the American Hero Story clips.... at least that's what the foreshadowing is leaning towards.

I'm still mildly traumatised from seeing the Giant Blue on Imax I'm so glad that it wasn't in 3d 

[Howard_Casto]

Everything wheelchair man says is literally true, so he’s Hooded Justice.  And I guess Dr. Manhattan must be disguised as a person. 

Err I meant hooded justice... sorry.  Dr. Manhattan is still on Mars.... he's shown on the news in the background of the first episode. 

[pbj]

Dr. Manhattan can be two places at once, fool.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah but he wouldn't be on mars unless he was still distancing himself from humanity.

[Mr. Peabody]

Doctor Manhattan is of course the insecure, self-unknowing character, unable to figure what to do with his capacities. He should come sit with me.

[Howard_Casto]

Well I'm unsure why the creators of this show kept denying that this was a sequel to the original Watchmen, because it clearly is.  It isn't "it's own thing" at all as it looks like the entire surviving cast of characters are going to be involved with the story in some way.  They are doing a decent job thus far so I don't understand why they would want to hide that.  I mean if you slap the Watchmen name onto a project isn't the point to draw in the Watchmen fan base?

Silk Specter was chewing the scenery this episode which was great.  I love how jaded she's become.   The giant blue vibrator was pretty damn unnecessary though... I'll never get that image out of my head.  So if Night Owl II is in jail somebody else hijacked his ship because the one that swiped the car seems to be the original. 

The writing has been good thus far but what concerns me is the fact that they proclaimed Oz's name this episode as if it was going to be some sort of surprise revelation to the audience.  Unless you are dumb as rocks, you knew the old man was Oz from the previews before the show even started.  Speaking of which it appears that Oz is trying to build a space suit.  I guess we know who his jailer ultimately is then.  I think it is suggested all of those hides he tanned in the beginning were skins from all the clones, but didn't he barbecue the last one?  Anyway I guess Dr. Manhattan has him trapped in some sort of geosphere on Mars and all of his servants are in fact his jailers, meant to keep him comfortable and obey him so long as he stays put.   

The show is 100% more watchable now... they've convinced me to tag along until the end of the season. 

[pbj]

I dunno, man.  The "sigh.... this thing again.... screw it, let me call my coworker and see if he's DTF" scene was pretty funny.  Even ice queens have needs, bro.

[pbj]

Everything wheelchair man says is literally true, so he’s Hooded Justice.  And I guess Dr. Manhattan must be disguised as a person. 

And now we wait on that Dr. Manhattan reveal.

 

[Howard_Casto]

Holy ---smurfing--- crap.  She married the dude?  For an "evolved being" Dr. M sure has a thing for damaged goods.  I thought the Calvary was going to squid bomb some black folks.... this is the first time in maybe 20 years that a tv show surprised me and it didn't have to do with ---smurfy--- writing.  So the scientist's dad has to be either Dr. M or Oz.  I think it could go either way honestly, but my guess is it's Oz and the clock brings him back to earth where he can smarty pants a plan to save Dr. M. 

I can't believe how impressed I am with this show.  It's a shame that, apparently, nobody is watching it.   

[MrThunderwing]

I'm watching it. A friend gave me the graphic novel as a birthday present many years back and it became one of my favourite comic book series of all time. I nearly didn't bother with this series when I saw it was written by Damon Lindelof (of Lost and Prometheus fame. Yuk.) and the first couple of episodes really weren't doing much for me, but I've been gradually warming to it and the Dr Manhattan twist at the end of this week's episode really had me on the edge of my seat. Really diggin' the Trent Reznor soundtrack too. The Hooded Justice origin story was pretty awesome too, interesting conceit to take what was a very minor character in the original source material and tie him so intrinsically into the plot of the whole show. I know the show is a totally seperate entity to the film, but if they do any flashbacks with the comedian, I'd love to see Jeffrey Dean Morgan back in the role.

[nitrogen_widget]

Holy ---smurfing--- crap.  She married the dude?  For an "evolved being" Dr. M sure has a thing for damaged goods.  I thought the Calvary was going to squid bomb some black folks.... this is the first time in maybe 20 years that a tv show surprised me and it didn't have to do with ---smurfy--- writing.  So the scientist's dad has to be either Dr. M or Oz.  I think it could go either way honestly, but my guess is it's Oz and the clock brings him back to earth where he can smarty pants a plan to save Dr. M. 

I can't believe how impressed I am with this show.  It's a shame that, apparently, nobody is watching it.

I just got caught up.
I'm banking on OZ as the pappy.
Considering she bought the company when he went awol and is also ultra genius type.
I mean a moon on mars it seems.
BTW his "SOS" was fricken awesome.

also, whole lot of dude's asses getting barreled out the last few episodes.
jus' sayin.

One thing that has really annoyed me with the Watchmen world is the way masked heroes utterly pound the snot out of multiple people in ways that not even Tyson could of in his prime yet maintain the "no super strength" BS.

[pbj]

I figured the scientist Trieu was going to be Dr. Manhattan up until the reveal.   

I do wish the plot would giddy up a little.  I don’t see this being resolved in 1 season.  Season 2 of American Gods was such a mess I’d hate to see it happen again.

[nitrogen_widget]

I figured the scientist Trieu was going to be Dr. Manhattan up until the reveal.   

I do wish the plot would giddy up a little.  I don’t see this being resolved in 1 season.  Season 2 of American Gods was such a mess I’d hate to see it happen again.

have not seen american gods but it sounds a lot like The Almighty Johnsons.

edit: didn't realize last episode came out. went and watched right after this.
We now have a solid evil plot that makes all the other stuff make sense.
but who is behind it?

[pbj]

Show felt like it ran out of steam in the last 2 episodes. 

 

[Howard_Casto]

I think the ending went exactly where I thought it was going to go.  I figured that the statue was Oz and that he'd save the day only to finally be held accountable for his actions.  It's just the main villain that I didn't get right.  I felt like the teaser ending was b.s.  Yeah after all the hell that Dr. M caused over his lifetime go ahead and eat the egg because you feel like you can do better.  The whole point of this series was that nobody can do better.  Not Oz, not Dr. M, nobody should have that kind of power over others, be it political, ideological, or literal.  Guess he was right, it never ends, it just keeps going.   

[pbj]

If she was going to take Dr. Manhattan's powers, why didn't she just do that and then teleport dad back to Earth?  The whole rocket ship and statue thing seemed like fluff.

If DM's main power is the ability to reform himself, what does blowing him up accomplish?

If the rubber squid can blow a clean hole through someone's hand, why are they stopped by roofs and a piece of plastic?

Why did the mind control plot go nowhere? 

Why is the vast conspiracy of 7th Kavalry just 3 dozen old white people?

[Howard_Casto]

Well she's a pompous ass just like her dad, so it was basically all just to show off and having him frozen in her lobby added insult to injury. 

I don't know.  He's supposedly weak to tachyons, so I guess if the magic power or whatever was sucked from him when he's bombarded by tachyons he wouldn't be able to reform.

Yeah the frozen squid were ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  We have ice falling from the sky all the time, it's called hail and it doesn't slice through metal.  Even if it did it'd go through everything else like you said. 

I think a better question would be, if hooded justice has mind control tech and has had it for 70 years, why does the 7th cavalry still exist?

That's an easy one.... all white supremacists are, at some level, small thinking morons.  I mean they are white supremacists so that goes without saying.   

 

[pbj]

Oh well, I enjoyed it.  It was an excellent show through episode 7.

 

[Goz]

It's a good adaptation but I agree with Howie that it feels unnecessary for the most part.