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| JayBee:
--- Quote from: RandyT on October 15, 2022, 05:22:16 am ---I don't see any of the bottlenecking you are describing in the examples being shown, and this is using a standard Wii remote. This tells me that any issues are the result of poor BT adapters and/or software implementations. --- End quote --- You can see the tracking lagging behind a little bit. Sure it's not very visible on slow movements and on a YouTube vid, but on fast motions on very picky lightgun games like point blank you WILL see the difference. And I'm not talking about the latency of the drivers or BT implementation, but on the hardware bottleneck of the wiimote itself and its protocol. --- Quote ---And while this is purely academic, as your approach is plenty fast enough for a light gun, every reference to the camera module indicates that it provides x and y co-ordinates only once every 10ms, after which the processing of that data would take place. So, I'm assuming that actual latency of your system is at least 14ms, not the 4ms being stated. --- End quote --- That is why I said the info online is old, incomplete and incorrect. It's based on what the wiimote is doing with the sensor, not at all what the sensor is truly capable at its max specs. And every library online are based on those erroneous info. But again, if you don't believe me, investigate by yourself instead of just repeating me the same outdated info you found online ;) --- Quote ---References for MoCap software using the stock remote is able to track objects in 3D with a 49ms latency, which also isn't bad, as moving from target to target can easily take 200ms. So, while yours is indeed very fast, far more "plug and play" and system compatible, I'm not willing to accept that it can't be done "well enough" on a PC with a stock remote, decent BT adapter and software. But for its lower speed, it would also be wireless :) Given the age of the device, however, It's doubtful anyone will bother to make something as polished as you have in that regard. --- End quote --- Anybody telling you 49ms isn't bad for gaming is either trying to sell you something or doesn't know ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about gaming. Let alone 200ms. And if you think 200ms is remotely ok to play a lightgun game without crosshair, no offence but you don't have a clue on how lightgun games work. 200ms means there will be 200ms between the time you pull the trigger and the time the shot land. It means your hit will land not where you are but where you where 1/4 second earlier. On picky games with fast motions and fast target you will ALWAYS miss your hit, as old crt based games require a max latency of around 16ms to work properly. If you don't believe me on that ask around in this forum see what people think about it :lol |
| RandyT:
--- Quote from: JayBee on October 15, 2022, 09:31:12 am ---You can see the tracking lagging behind a little bit. --- End quote --- I chalked that up to the drawing program. I have seen them do this even with a mouse or graphics tablet. The other examples where it has crosshairs which follow his actions looked much better. --- Quote ---That is why I said the info online is old, incomplete and incorrect. It's based on what the wiimote is doing with the sensor, not at all what the sensor is truly capable at its max specs. --- End quote --- Ahhh, there we go. So, the older sensor used in the remote does have the same 200hz spec as the newer ones. There is at least one reference for that spec published in a researchgate paper online, so they aren't all incorrect :). That's definitely a "pro" for a direct connection, especially if the Wii remote hardware is responsible for limiting that. --- Quote ---Anybody telling you 49ms isn't bad for gaming is either trying to sell you something or doesn't know ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about gaming. Let alone 200ms. And if you think 200ms is remotely ok to play a lightgun game without crosshair, no offence but you don't have a clue on how lightgun games work. 200ms means there will be 200ms between the time you pull the trigger and the time the shot land. It means your hit will land not where you are but where you where 1/4 second earlier. On picky games with fast motions and fast target you will ALWAYS miss your hit, as old crt based games require a max latency of around 16ms to work properly. If you don't believe me on that ask around in this forum see what people think about it :lol --- End quote --- I think you may be putting some words in my mouth there. The MoCap system is able to do high quality 3D motion capture with a 49ms latency. This system uses 2 Wii remotes to accurately plot coordinates in 3D space. Their system was tested out to a few points less than the 100hz maximum, even with 2 controllers. In other words, that system has a whole lot more processing going on in the back end once the sensor serves up the co-ordinates. I also didn't say 200ms response time was "ok", only that by the time a human being identifies what they are seeing as a target and has moved into position, it can reach that amount of time. Obviously, if it took another 200ms to fire once there, it would suck, but that wouldn't be the case. :) In my mind, the target for response time would be the 16ms of an actual CRT refresh, as that is what those games really expected when they were created. Unfortunately, the average LCD television already blows that goal with it's own input lag, which can be as much as three plus times that on older sets, and don't even think about what a projector adds to the mix. Even newer sets with so-called "excellent" latency average to about 20ms. But honestly, most light gun games aren't that speed critical, with the obvious exception of the Point Blank series, where it was the focus of the game. And with those titles, just playing them on an LCD puts the player at a disadvantage unless every part of the system comes in at under the 16ms mark when accumulated. If the Wii remote is able to provide a reliable stream of data at 100hz, or 40% better than what the original CRT based light guns did, it's still possible (note that I didn't say probable) to get there with a low-latency display, coupled with good BT and software. |
| allenc:
maybe the wii camera need to use this I2C voltage converter chip to the Arduino https://www.instructables.com/Wii-Remote-IR-Camera-Hack/ |
| JayBee:
--- Quote from: RandyT on October 15, 2022, 12:11:53 pm ---That's definitely a "pro" for a direct connection, especially if the Wii remote hardware is responsible for limiting that. --- End quote --- I wasn't aware it was available online as it's one of the numerous technical specs I was able to find by my own, but yeah, among other things, it's what makes my system way more suitable. --- Quote ---I think you may be putting some words in my mouth there. The MoCap system is able to do high quality 3D motion capture with a 49ms latency. This system uses 2 Wii remotes to accurately plot coordinates in 3D space. Their system was tested out to a few points less than the 100hz maximum, even with 2 controllers. In other words, that system has a whole lot more processing going on in the back end once the sensor serves up the co-ordinates. I also didn't say 200ms response time was "ok", only that by the time a human being identifies what they are seeing as a target and has moved into position, it can reach that amount of time. Obviously, if it took another 200ms to fire once there, it would suck, but that wouldn't be the case. :) In my mind, the target for response time would be the 16ms of an actual CRT refresh, as that is what those games really expected when they were created. Unfortunately, the average LCD television already blows that goal with it's own input lag, which can be as much as three plus times that on older sets, and don't even think about what a projector adds to the mix. Even newer sets with so-called "excellent" latency average to about 20ms. But honestly, most light gun games aren't that speed critical, with the obvious exception of the Point Blank series, where it was the focus of the game. And with those titles, just playing them on an LCD puts the player at a disadvantage unless every part of the system comes in at under the 16ms mark when accumulated. If the Wii remote is able to provide a reliable stream of data at 100hz, or 40% better than what the original CRT based light guns did, it's still possible (note that I didn't say probable) to get there with a low-latency display, coupled with good BT and software. --- End quote --- I think we don't really understand each other on why latency higher than a frame for lightguns is a huge issue, even for normal games and average gamers. It's fine tho, I understand your point here. For most screen/controllers/games, higher latency is fine, as you get used to anticipate your actions depending of the latency of the system. It also works with lightgun games that use a crosshair and don't need you to aim. For aim on sight shooting on the other hand, it just doesn't work. It means on fast motions your aim will never be totally accurate and will never feel as good as arcade original games. Even 2~3 frames of latency makes a huge difference. And added screen latency is another reason you don't want your gun to have latency, as those latencies only add up to each other. But no worries, on a fast gaming monitor on mame with G-Sync mode active, the total latency of the screen + the gun4ir input is only 1 frame in total, so 16.66ms, the exact same as with the real arcade cab. I recently did testing on the MiSTer FPGA on my CRT with the various cores that support lightgun, with the original guns, and there was no added latency compared to the CRT guns, it preformed exactly like the original, down to the single frame. That is something no other lightguns in the market can achieve at the moment, especially not with levels of accuracy also beating CRT guns ;) But you don't need to believe me on that, I'm preparing some videos to show that off, since I'm getting tired of people getting skeptical when I talk about my system performances :lol |
| RandyT:
--- Quote from: JayBee on October 16, 2022, 02:44:02 am ---That is something no other lightguns in the market can achieve at the moment, especially not with levels of accuracy also beating CRT guns ;) But you don't need to believe me on that, I'm preparing some videos to show that off, since I'm getting tired of people getting skeptical when I talk about my system performances :lol --- End quote --- I'd definitely be interested in seeing a video backing up that claim :). I have a dedicated 36" CRT and a PS2 with GunCons connected to it via RGB. Speed and accuracy are at least "arcade quality" with this setup, but it's limited to the PS libraries. FWIW, my interest in all of this is to turn that into a "gun system" which is capable of playing all of the light gun games with one gun and the same speed and accuracy as a GC2. So, I'd be a happy camper if that is truly the case, and the minimum distance wasn't further than the 5 or so feet away I normally play from it. |
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