Composite Sync on RX 570 from HDMI to VGA to RGB PVM

[Setzer84]

Hi all,

Long time reader here, short time poster I love the community and help that's given here, hopefully I can get some advice for getting things running on my end.

I posted on here a few months ago on getting CRT Emudriver to work on my AMD GPU MacBook--I'm guessing it was too tall of an ask and I didn't get any replies so I decided to build a totally new rig just for CRT Emudriver that can also hang as a modern 1080/1440 gaming machine.

I went with an OptiPlex 7020 that I added a Sapphire Nitro+ RX 570 8gb under Windows 10 64-bit 1903.

CRT Emudriver installs just fine (even though sometimes it recognizes my card as a RX 580 after installation). The card is supported and I can load VMMaker OK--the trouble is getting composite sync to work.

I'm using the following cables to go from my RX 570's rear HDMI output to the RGB input of my PVM:

HDMI to VGA Active Adapter (the active Portta one recommended by RetroRGB, seemed better built than the Tendak):
https://www.amazon.com/Portta-3-5mm-Audio-Converter-support/dp/B003O55U8K

Monoprice VGA to BNC (I've seen Calamity use this same cable in his last YouTube video on composite sync, the Monoprice reviews say it can carry HV sync on the fourth line for RGBS):
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=568

I'm running the installation with my 4K monitor through DisplayPort on the card as the setup mule and have been enabling EDID emulation through both HDMI ports to the PVM with no luck. I've been trying the method Calamity has suggested which is selecting "Generic" in Device (under Video card), plugging in the HDMI to VGA adapter, powering on the PVM, enabling EDID emulation, then composite sync with new modelines. I do eventually get the "Generic 15" as a device from which I can generate new modelines (going with super resolutions out of the gate) but still no luck, just a rolling screen on the PVM.

What's weird is that sometimes when I enable EDID emulation, it briefly turns my 4K setup monitor screen purple and yellow--not sure if this is a side effect of the driver or EDID emulation. I was also having some difficulty with borking my Windows installation after EDID when I was installing it while using a HDMI monitor connection--I guess I was occasionally choosing the wrong HDMI port. I'm guessing the HDMI number identification goes in sequential order from left to right on the back of the card? (HDMI 8 is the leftmost one, HDMI 9 is the rightmost one?) I got further along in my installation using my monitor plugged into the DisplayPort as opposed to HDMI, it got really tricky having to guess which HDMI port was the right one to install against (tried both with no luck).

I've attached some images to show you guys where I'm at--the closest thing I can get is a rolling PVM screen. In an ideal world, I'd like the left HDMI running to a 4K TV/monitor and the right HDMI on the card running to the PVM for a dual screen Launchbox setup I've been planning for months.

I'm not sure what to do here, and am really bummed/frustrated...I guess this is a rite of CRT passage? My guess is maybe composite sync just isn't possible with the Portta Adapter? Would it make a difference if I got a DVI-D to VGA adapter and enabled EDID emulation there (the RX 570 has a DVI-D port that shows in the drop down for EDID)? Would composite sync work then? Do I need to add an Extron Rxi sync combiner to whole chain? I'd love to keep the setup as minimal as possible.

I've been reading all of the guides here from Calamity/Buttersoft et al but most of the documentation seems to be for older cards with analog outputs, there really isn't much help out there for newer cards.

I'm happy to post whatever you guys would like to see to help diagnose the issue. Hopefully this can help some other folks out there, too.

Thank you!

[buttersoft]

WEll, hopefully someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but either way an analog DVI-I video card might have been a better bet...

I think you can only enable EDID emulation on an analog port, i think it fails on a digital one?

And where did you see information relating to C-sync out of an HMI port? I wouldn't have thought that was possible either.

Happy to be wrong on both counts.

[schmerzkaufen]

I have to ask THE stupid question; don't you need a custom VGA>SCART cable ?  (or VGA>BNC, well RGBHV to RGBs anyway)

A moment ago I told Setzer84 I'll be doing the same also with a RX 570 when I'm done with stuff that's in the way, and that I'm planning to use basically that connectivity here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,160722.msg1692357.html#msg1692357

Never gave it a second thought, because you know since my first try at 15hz emulation ages ago I assumed this kind of custom cable or equivalent is always involved in a 15khz emu setup.

Here on the forums though we only tell people "with an AMD card that lacks an analogue output, you'll need a HDMI>VGA dongle"...but we never mention the RGBHV>RGBs cable part.

[Recapnation]

Calamity himself has mentioned Arcade Forge's UMSA several times here, if I recall. That's a way for RGBHV to RGBS which doesn't involve cable customization (albeit expensive in the end, since you'll also need a couple of decent-quality cables).

And there's VMM's composite sync button since two years ago:

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1343#p1343

[schmerzkaufen]

Completely forgot about the existence of the UMSA.
A pre-made cable you'll find on the internet is as expensive really.

VMmaker method is indeed much cheaper. ^^

[Setzer84]

Thanks all for the responses, I'm happy I got the gurus here Buttersoft, your extended post on connecting to CRTs is outstanding and I can't tell you how many times I've read it and seen it shared in CRT communities.

In my particular case, I don't think what I'm trying to do is particularly exotic--it's basically running CRT Emudriver from a listed compatible card into a PVM (no SCART connection, it takes RGBS over BNC connectors...RGB with a sync port). I think what MAY be novel about it is the fact that I'm using a newer supported card without an analog output.

In all of the posts I've read, videos I've seen, guides I've gone through for months, I've never come across someone actually successfully using a newer card with no analog output. The default troubleshooting response is always "use an older card with an analog output", which is a bummer because I've read Calamity has put in a lot of hard work and effort to extend support to newer cards. Newer cards are listed as supported so I've gotta believe it can be done (otherwise why list them as supported, right?).

There's also a lot of conflicting information out there on installation/cables to use which is confusing. A guide from Retrocidad says to forego EDID emulation, while Calamity recommends doing it as the first step:
.
Calamity has also said he uses a HDMI to VGA dongle but your suggestions tell me EDID emulation is not possible on a digital port?: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=141855.240. I posted this same question to crtgaming Reddit this past week and apart from being suggested an older card (haha), I was suggested to use a RGBHV cable and combine the sync cables with a T connector (which I know from reading on here is a big no-no).

All technical things considered, I really would like this to just plain work with the RX 570 as Calamity intended, and hope these posts help folks out there in CRT land searching for a solution with a newer card. So then...what cables/process should I use to make it happen?

Here's what I have so far (I can exchange the cables for other ones if need be):

HDMI to VGA Active Adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/Portta-3-5mm-Audio-Converter-support/dp/B003O55U8K

Monoprice VGA to BNC, I've seen Calamity use this same cable here

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=568

Here's what I've tried with no success (with the above cables):

Process 1 (Calamity guide):
1) Install CRT Emudriver
2) Select "Generic 15" preset on Monitor Settings
3) Select "Generic Monitor" on Device (second one down), select output to be first HDMI port going into PVM (then connect cable that leads into the PVM with the Portta adapter)
4) Click "Enable EDID Emulation" on that port
5) Turn on PVM, proceed to link super resolutions .ini on User Modes, "Export Monitor Settings to GM", "Get videos modes from MAME XML", "General XML from MAME executable"
6) Generate and install 120 new modelines
7) Enable composite sync, generate new modelines
Rolling PVM screen that looks like 15khz isn't going into it

Process 2 (Retrocidad)
1) Install CRT Emudriver
2) Select "Generic 15" preset on Monitor Settings
3) Leave Device and Output as-is (no EDID)
4) Move straight into generating and installing modelines (as above)
5) Restart PC, turn on PVM when in windows
Rolling PVM screen that looks like 15khz isn't going into it

This is the setup I'm aiming for, just with a PVM:


Let me know what cables/installation process I can try. And Calamity, if you're reading this, thank you for your hard work in making this driver!

[buttersoft]

So, assuming Calamity's vid goes through the exact same steps you describe, and given we know this method works for getting composite sync works on cards earlier than yours, the problem is either with Composite sync over an HDMI port, or with the Porta converter not handling c-sync. Or both. Calamity intended cards of the 570 generation to work, true, but the use of HDMI-to-VGA converters threw a spanner in the works as they're all different to one another and don't advertise their capabilities for use in edge cases such as ours.

Cheapest next step in testing is to disable composite sync and get a T-piece BNC plug and join Hsync and Vsync and feed into the PVM. I would not recommend this for daily use, as you're aware, but for testing it should be fine. This will only cost you two dollars, and if it works you know that all you're going to need is a way to make composite sync yourself. I cover that in the guide you mention.

And speaking of that guide, it's probably me sharing it in frustration when i see people giving stupid advice on FB or 4chan

[schmerzkaufen]

Cheapest next step in testing is to disable composite sync and get a T-piece BNC plug and join Hsync and Vsync and feed into the PVM.

Honestly I've never heard of this working even once. Tried myself with a various devices a few times long ago and I think I went close to fry something in the process.

--

Anyway, I may not be in line with the übergeek's mindset, but IMHO the 'csync button' way sounds like added complexity to and already complicated-enough setup, only to make up for the lack of proper connectivity, which should be;

.part 1: VGA>SCART custom rgbhv>rgbs cable (DIY or order pre-built from arcade-express), or UMSA then (arcadeforge), and a set of 4 male BNC to solder in place of the SCART connector.
.part 2: VGA>HDMI (the Portta like all other models is still not 'confirmed working for groovy', the Syncwire one oomek used in his experiment seemed ok though)

If just swapping SCART for BNC is a problem (it's really only about locating 8 wires on the scart side, and solder them to 4 bnc), then retrogamingcables sell an (expensive) SCART>BNC adapter.

@Setzer84: since you know I'll test this myself later this fall, well, you can also wait that long if you want to see before trying further stuff. But if it confirms that'll mean acquiring the same connectivity set I'll use.
People on the forums will often lead you to the most cost-effective routes, routes that sometimes mean increased technicity or limitations you have to be good to get around (or have low expectations). That's not my philosophy because I'm not good-enough to get myself out of many tight technical spots, so I like to at the very least first get the right stuff hardware-wise, to reduce the number of times I'll require help or to learn yet more stuff I'm far from mastering, even if that means spending a bit more.

[Arroyo]

Cheapest next step in testing is to disable composite sync and get a T-piece BNC plug and join Hsync and Vsync and feed into the PVM.

Honestly I've never heard of this working even once. Tried myself with a various devices a few times long ago and I think I went close to fry something in the process.

I've done it on 2 PVM's, works fine.  In an ideal world I would do composite Sync as well, but I can confirm it does work.

I would try isolating your problems by introducing as few variables as possible.  Like schmerzkaufen mentioned it's hard to know what the issue is with a number of items that could be blamed. If it were me I would do the HDMI->Portta->VGA->5 BNC cable with H and V into a T-piece BNC plug.  That way you can isolate if the Portta is working as nothing else in that setup should be causing issues.  Once you establish if that is the issue or not then you can try enabling C-Sync.

BTW from your picture it doesn't look like a vertical sync problem.  That usually looks something more like this:

[buttersoft]

Surely that's a horizontal sync issue in your picture? A vertical sync issue is a stable picture side to side, but rolling up or down the screen.

BTW from your picture it doesn't look like a vertical sync problem.  That usually looks something more like this:

[Arroyo]

Surely that's a horizontal sync issue in your picture? A vertical sync issue is a stable picture side to side, but rolling up or down the

Sorry yes, was rushing this morning.  Yeah here’s a unstable vertical but stable horizontal:



Vertical but no horizontal:



And no sync at all:



Here’s a pic of the T BNC that I have going to the back of the PVM:



And here’s a pic of the image using that T connector:



To clarify on my previous post, the T connector is coming from an AMD card using Analog out.  Don’t know why combining syncs with a T connector using Analog out would differ from the Analog converted signal from that Portta.

[schmerzkaufen]

Well I'll be damned, never seen it work on a consumer telly or arcade monitor tho...

[Arroyo]

Well I'll be damned, never seen it work on a consumer telly or arcade monitor tho...

While not exactly the same thing, two weekends ago I was at MikeA's place and we took the CSync single wire output from his Street Fighter 2 PCB, and split the wire into two (actually two wires off of a molex connector), and then fed each into the monitors separate Horizontal and Vertical pins.  Worked perfect.  So kind of the opposite, splitting rather than combining.  Haven't played too much with Consumer TV's in that respect, although I believe RGB moded TV's here in the U.S. have some sync combining going on, but can't really say for sure.

[Calamity]

Sorry to be late, some ideas:

1.- I totally agree the other folks, you first need to figure out whether your DAC device works with separate sync or not, use a T-connector for that, I do it all the time on my PVM. The cable I use is actually 5-BNC, not 4-BNC, in the video I just left the v-sync wire unplugged for demonstration of c-sync. To be clear: c-sync has only been tested through analog outputs. Using the HDMI output for arcades is something relatively new.

2.- I'm concerned about your picture 2.jpg where it looks like EDID emulation is not working. I'm afraid this could be the same issue with the RX Vega 11. In the "Device:" dropdown menu, once EDID emulation is enabled you should see "Generic_15" or whatever preset you choose in one of the outputs, instead of "Generic PnP Monitor".

3.- Even if composite sync is enabled, you usually need to recalculate and install the modes and switch to one of the newly created ones to get composite sync through the cable.

[Setzer84]

Thank you all for your suggestions, especially to Calamity himself (!!!) for chiming in. I was so pleasantly surprised when I saw your reply--it really means a lot that you're helping a newbie to this forum.

I've taken a few days to noodle even further and still no luck.

I returned the Portta and went with the DAC you use Calamity (I read through the illustrious "CRT Emudriver Hell" post where you linked to it, the Rankie HDMI to VGA adapter):
https://www.amazon.com/Rankie-HDMI-Adapter-3-5mm-Audio/dp/B00ZMV7RL2/ref=sr_1_3?crid=27SDL45C33KMB&keywords=rankie+hdmi+to+vga+adapter&qid=1569807603&s=gateway&sprefix=rankie+hdmi+to+%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-3

I still have the Monoprice 4 BNC cable but picked up a 5 BNC (RGBHV):
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=566&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvunUwrX35AIVAZ-fCh3EPg3QEAQYAiABEgI0KPD_BwE

I also picked up some BNC T connectors...CRT Emudriver starter kit complete.

Below is my process following the guides with accompanying pictures. Given the 8 pic limit, I made a fun storybook for you all

1. CRT Emudriver installs all good with success
2. Start up VMMaker with no second monitor attached
3. Select Generic 15
4. Plug in the Rankie DAC connected to the RGBHV cable going into the PVM, it's still turned off and we're just using the H line in
5. On the "Video Card" tab, I change my device to the second monitor from the one I'm using, after selecting it changes to "Generic PnP"
6. On EDID, I select the second HDMI port where my DAC is plugged (in this case 9) for the EDID target
7. I click "Enable EDID Emulation"...screen flickers a bit but then we're back online
8. I see now on EDID the 9 port has become "GENERIC 15" and on Device I can select "GENERIC 15"
9. Power on the PVM...the moment of truth...a rolling PVM screen complaining of no sync...womp womp
10. Frustrated, I try the T connector, the rolling screen is now synced (shows RGB) but the screen is garbled
11. Going back to just the H line (no T connector) I proceed to generate modelines/enable C sync/generate modelines again and we have a garbled rolling screen (worse than before)

I'm really starting to think CRT Emudriver can't work on newer cards without some additional apparatus like the JPACs and Extrons I've seen thrown around here as suggestions. In all of my research on forums, YouTube, and guides I've never come across someone getting it to work on a non-analog card. Anyone out there?!?!

I really hope I'm wrong and blatantly missing something but am really quite stumped here...any suggestions? Thanks!

[Calamity]

Hi Setzer84,

Well, the good news are EDID emulation is working on your RX. With that thing solved, it's just a matter of figuring out the rest.

In all of my research on forums, YouTube, and guides I've never come across someone getting it to work on a non-analog card. Anyone out there?!?!

I have it working here on a Vega 56.

The first thing you need to do is forget about using c-sync, at least until you have everything working fine. You're adding another dimension of difficulty to an already difficult issue, specially since this is your first setup. From now on I'll be assuming you're using a T-connector all the time.

Now, check your picture 11. You have 3 outputs enabled. If you go to Windows display properties dialog, you'll notice you have 3 screens. What's happening here? You have enabled EDID emulation to the wrong HDMI output... or you've connected your PVM to the output where you have not enabled EDID emulation. It's that simple.

So disable EDID emulation on that output and start again. You'll be fine to go on when in the "device" menu you only see 2 outputs enabled: your LG monitor and Generic_15.

Once you're there, it's still possible that default desktop resolution of 640x480 can't show properly due to the low dotclock limitation. You'll need to generate super resolutions and try those instead, by launching Arcade OSD in order to try them.

[Setzer84]

Thank you Calamity...after a few days of noodling IT WORKS. CRT Emudriver on a newer, non-analog AMD card...WHOA!!!!

There are a few observations/questions I have now that I've gotten it working:

Observations:

- As you said, 640x480i does not work on the PVM from Windows display settings (even when "hiding modes this monitor can't display")--it shows a garbled screen (see attached). It only works by first installing super resolutions from “super.ini” and setting the PVM desktop to 2560x240 via Windows display settings (I didn't need to use ArcadeOSD).

- For some reason, installing the modelines from GM out of the gate didn't work--I was only able to see the super resolutions on the second desktop via Windows display settings by using the stock “super.ini” (and not pulling modelines from GM). Later, I was able to generate modelines from GM OK.

- In RetroArch, it gets weird--the second monitor (in this case the PVM) won't display correctly unless you set the super resolution to 2560 and the refresh rate to "custom" (in the CRT Switchres settings in RetroArch). Otherwise, I got stuttering and a squished display. The desktop display in Windows on the PVM needs to be 2560x240 to match.

- Consoles with 480i don't display correctly—Dreamcast runs in 240p (kind of cool, actually) and PSX/Saturn/Gamecube/handhelds are shoddy and/or not displaying at all. N64 looks razor sharp in 240p with internal resolution on the core set to 640x480. My guess is that I need to install a fuller super resolution set like what this person suggested: https://forums.libretro.com/t/crt-switchres-not-quite-feeling-right-on-crt-arcade-monitor/19082/37.

- Integer scaling...this one is the weirdest. Using super resolutions on non-240p content makes the image squished. It's only by enabling integer scaling does it correct (go fullscreen). For native 240p content, I need to disable integer scaling for a full screen, otherwise the image is really small.

Questions:

- I’ve been reading a few posts over on the libretro forums with Alphanu (the creator of CRT Switchres) and it looks like this 2560 super resolution to 480i bug is a common thing—by having your desktop on the PVM to 2560x240, RetroArch is unable to switch itself to 480i when need be, it just shows black. Would it be possible to somehow force 640x480i desktop resolution on the PVM via the HDMI to VGA dongle or is that just not possible because of the HDMI dot clock limitation? Or, am I just missing the right modelines? Is there a limit to how many modelines the driver can hold?

- The T connector worked like a charm but is it a long term solution? Will it damage the PVM circuitry? What’s the preferred solution…an Extron sync combiner? I had no luck with csync unfortunately.

- In my frustration before getting this to work on the RX 570, I picked up a used R9 380 for 50 bucks…not a bad deal. Million dollar question…is there a real benefit to using an analog card over a newer one in terms of performance/latency? Would using the R9 380 clear up the weird 480i/super resolution stuff I’m experiencing? Would it be more seamless overall?

Thanks again everybody, looking forward to sharing more of my insights so hopefully this can help other folks out!

[mrchrister]

Sorry to revive this but I'm on the same quest. Tried rx580 today and got edid working but no csync. I have a Radeon 7xxx with working csync but too slow for Wii and GameCube emulation. So I'm thinking of switching to a R9 380 to get the best of both worlds. Just one question, does it allow CSync?

[psakhis]

Hi, i have radeon 7750 and it's fine with cemu and dolphin with vulkan and d3d11.

[mrchrister]

I have a Low Profile one but yeah, did some more tests yesterday and dolphin after some tweaking works pretty well now for Wii gaming
D3d11 made the big difference.

[rsseguel]

Hi all,

Long time reader here, short time poster I love the community and help that's given here, hopefully I can get some advice for getting things running on my end.

I posted on here a few months ago on getting CRT Emudriver to work on my AMD GPU MacBook--I'm guessing it was too tall of an ask and I didn't get any replies so I decided to build a totally new rig just for CRT Emudriver that can also hang as a modern 1080/1440 gaming machine.

I went with an OptiPlex 7020 that I added a Sapphire Nitro+ RX 570 8gb under Windows 10 64-bit 1903.

CRT Emudriver installs just fine (even though sometimes it recognizes my card as a RX 580 after installation). The card is supported and I can load VMMaker OK--the trouble is getting composite sync to work.

I'm using the following cables to go from my RX 570's rear HDMI output to the RGB input of my PVM:

HDMI to VGA Active Adapter (the active Portta one recommended by RetroRGB, seemed better built than the Tendak):
https://www.amazon.com/Portta-3-5mm-Audio-Converter-support/dp/B003O55U8K

Monoprice VGA to BNC (I've seen Calamity use this same cable in his last YouTube video on composite sync, the Monoprice reviews say it can carry HV sync on the fourth line for RGBS):
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=568

I'm running the installation with my 4K monitor through DisplayPort on the card as the setup mule and have been enabling EDID emulation through both HDMI ports to the PVM with no luck. I've been trying the method Calamity has suggested which is selecting "Generic" in Device (under Video card), plugging in the HDMI to VGA adapter, powering on the PVM, enabling EDID emulation, then composite sync with new modelines. I do eventually get the "Generic 15" as a device from which I can generate new modelines (going with super resolutions out of the gate) but still no luck, just a rolling screen on the PVM.

What's weird is that sometimes when I enable EDID emulation, it briefly turns my 4K setup monitor screen purple and yellow--not sure if this is a side effect of the driver or EDID emulation. I was also having some difficulty with borking my Windows installation after EDID when I was installing it while using a HDMI monitor connection--I guess I was occasionally choosing the wrong HDMI port. I'm guessing the HDMI number identification goes in sequential order from left to right on the back of the card? (HDMI 8 is the leftmost one, HDMI 9 is the rightmost one?) I got further along in my installation using my monitor plugged into the DisplayPort as opposed to HDMI, it got really tricky having to guess which HDMI port was the right one to install against (tried both with no luck).

I've attached some images to show you guys where I'm at--the closest thing I can get is a rolling PVM screen. In an ideal world, I'd like the left HDMI running to a 4K TV/monitor and the right HDMI on the card running to the PVM for a dual screen Launchbox setup I've been planning for months.

I'm not sure what to do here, and am really bummed/frustrated...I guess this is a rite of CRT passage? My guess is maybe composite sync just isn't possible with the Portta Adapter? Would it make a difference if I got a DVI-D to VGA adapter and enabled EDID emulation there (the RX 570 has a DVI-D port that shows in the drop down for EDID)? Would composite sync work then? Do I need to add an Extron Rxi sync combiner to whole chain? I'd love to keep the setup as minimal as possible.

I've been reading all of the guides here from Calamity/Buttersoft et al but most of the documentation seems to be for older cards with analog outputs, there really isn't much help out there for newer cards.

I'm happy to post whatever you guys would like to see to help diagnose the issue. Hopefully this can help some other folks out there, too.

Thank you!

I'm a new user here, but not old in this lovely world, so I'm sorry for revive an old post but I have the same RX570 and I would love to know if you finally made it cos I'm facing the same problems here like you had.

How you made it? Was possible considering the HDMI output of the card even like CRTEmudrivers say that's compatible?

I hope you can read this message my friend cos I'm looking for help for months and nothing