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Author Topic: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?  (Read 597 times)

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ID4

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Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« on: August 16, 2019, 04:42:32 am »
Hi!

I know that the chassis mounted in Sega Naomi, the Nanao MS-2932-S can do 640x480p.

The questions is this, Can this chassis got more than 640x480? Maybe 800x600?

Have any of you tried or succeeded?

Ok I know that we can add more horizontal resolution without problems.

Probably interlacing we can double the verical resolution, but the thing is to get it in progressive.

Thanks!

ID4


grantspain

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2019, 08:26:09 am »
nope, you will short the horizontal output transistor

ID4

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2019, 02:24:03 am »
nope, you will short the horizontal output transistor

Really? If you stay in "31 Khz" you will fry it?

grantspain

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 04:22:59 am »
31khz is fine, thats what its designed for but higher than that will kill the HOT

ID4

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2019, 05:05:03 am »
31khz is fine, thats what its designed for but higher than that will kill the HOT

What is the max resolution that we can get at 31 khz with or without interlacing and without killing the HOT?

Have you experimented with this chassis?

grantspain

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2019, 05:07:30 am »
i just fix them and i only test them on 640 x 480

buttersoft

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2019, 10:36:44 pm »
You won't quite hit 600@50p within the 31kHz limit. You can get to about 576@50p.

(Scan Rate) = (total horizontal lines each frame) x (Frames per second)

31kHz = (480visible + 45blanking)  x 60fps

31kHz = (576 +  ~50) x 50fps.

Be aware that if you try this sort of thing with certain MS8 monitors it will appear to work fine and give a stable picture, but cook the sync circuitry in a few weeks. Those monitors have a sweet spot and don't like operating outside it.  I've only heard this about the MS8's though, other models and monitors should be perfectly fine, including your MS9, but i take no responsibility for what happens.

Another option might be on old TV with RGB hacked into it. TV's are surprisingly adaptable and will look pretty good at 800x600@50i (interlaced) if their sync range stretches quite that high. I've found a few consumer sets that do, so you might get lucky.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 07:28:50 pm by buttersoft »

ID4

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2019, 05:38:20 am »
Maybe this modelines will work:


Modeline "800x600_50.00" 31.15 800 824 904 1008 600 601 604 618 -HSync +Vsync
Modeline "800x600x50.72"  31.752000  800 824 904 1008  600 604 608 621  -HSync +VSync
Modeline "800x600x50.00"  31.298400  800 824 904 1008  600 604 608 621  -HSync +VSync

buttersoft

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 02:36:57 am »
That's for you to tell us :)

I have no direct experience with the MS9's, or indeed with any Nanao not actually designed by Kaga Denshi in the late 70's :)

ID4

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2019, 03:11:16 am »
That's for you to tell us :)

I have no direct experience with the MS9's, or indeed with any Nanao not actually designed by Kaga Denshi in the late 70's :)

Hi!

Ok I tested 800x600@50 and worked perfectly, Tried adding more horizontal resolution (line 1066x600@50) and worked too.

The image is very sharp at 50 Hz.

lilshawn

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2019, 12:43:51 pm »
see you next week!  :cheers:

buttersoft

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2019, 09:45:58 pm »
Ok I tested 800x600@50 and worked perfectly, Tried adding more horizontal resolution (line 1066x600@50) and worked too.

The image is very sharp at 50 Hz.

Glad it's working, and looks nice. Just remember that the monitor wasn't really designed to run this way, it might technically be out of spec... I mean running at 600x50p. You can up the number of horizontal lines to super-resolution territory if you like, or even to 3840. This will be fine for scaling emulators neatly, but for anything else might exceed the bandwidth response of the transistors. Shouldn't hurt, but the image might go slightly greyer, washed-out or mushy.

see you next week!  :cheers:

Does that mean actually see him for beers, or are you predicting he's going to fry his monitor and have to come back for help, lol? I genuinely cannot tell :)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 09:51:03 pm by buttersoft »

ID4

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2019, 06:10:32 am »
Hi!

This is an MS2932 not MS8, maybe this solution can work without friying the chassis, time wil tell ...  :cheers:

I have two Polo Star waiting to enter in action in case that nanao fails.

I tested them with 29' tubes using low impedance yoke, and works perfectly.

Ok I tested 800x600@50 and worked perfectly, Tried adding more horizontal resolution (line 1066x600@50) and worked too.

The image is very sharp at 50 Hz.

Glad it's working, and looks nice. Just remember that the monitor wasn't really designed to run this way, it might technically be out of spec... I mean running at 600x50p. You can up the number of horizontal lines to super-resolution territory if you like, or even to 3840. This will be fine for scaling emulator neatly, but for anything else might exceed the bandwidth response of the transistors. Should hurt, but the image might go slightly greyer, washed-out or mushy.

see you next week!  :cheers:

Does that mean actually see him for beers, or are you predicting he's going to fry his monitor and have to come back for help, lol? I genuinely cannot tell :)

lilshawn

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2019, 11:08:20 am »
I mean I get that people don't know... but the deflection system is essentially a tuning fork that resonates at specific frequency. it's designed to run at that frequency. It shouldn't be run outside of what it's designed for.

the reason early switchable monitors failed often was becasue the yoke was being driven outside of it's resonant frequency. when it's run out of it's tuning, it effectively resists itself as the magnetic field is formed and collapses. (as an electrical coil does) This must be dissipated as heat and in extreme cases, the collapsing magnetic field causes high voltage spikes in the drive system. (this is why we put diodes on solenoids) you can always tell a monitor designed without this in mind. they will happily run at one frequency...nice and cool...no problems at all ever... and be outright gnarly when switched to other frequencies...cooked plastic on the yoke, fried windings, yokes falling apart...so on.

they didn't know about high frequency and RF back in the day like we do now.

essentially what OP has done here is forcing the monitor to drive the deflection out of it's design. It could last an hour....or a week... or a month...but eventually it's going to rear it's ugly head, and it's likely not going to be repairable.

buttersoft

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2019, 08:06:50 pm »
That's true and not true all at once. It depends which monitor you're talking about, how big a sync range it has, and how it handles signals further from its ideal rate. The MS8, and maybe it's only specific MS8's, are quite sensitive. That's about as limited as it gets for anything made from about 1980 onwards, at least that I'm aware of. A TV chassis newer than about 1990, on the other hand, is happy to try and sync to just about anything. Results can vary when you're not specifically at PAL or NTSC frequencies, but normally it's not an issue.

Most monitors are going to fall somewhere between these two extremes. I get the tuning fork analogy, and that it's going to push the system harder to operate away from a set ideal frequency, but nothing is ever dead on including component values, this is the real world. Old arcade games weren't universally synced to 15.75kHz/59.9997Hz anyway, they were grouped around that. Operators would swap 15kHz jamma boards in generic cabs all the time.

We mostly talk about arcade chassis here, true. And multisyncs are more fragile than the average 15kHz-only monitor, at least according to everything you hear. It only makes sense that different chassis are going to perform differently in the long term, the question is how. If you're sure the MS9 won't tolerate the ranges discussed above, that's valuable information, no need to beat around the bush :) And if you have any specific information or specs regarding other monitors, i'll happily start recording it because it's good to know.

EDIT: Is the difference going to be PAL/50Hz frequency tolerance? I had assumed in those cases that the horizontal coil wouldn't much notice - it's still pinging away within it's sync range, it's just the vertical section that's running slow. And there's much less power going through the vertical section, isn't there? I've always found vertical issues easier to diagnose and fix, certainly.  I guess i've never seen any specs for a newer 15kHz CRT that didn't list a ~48Hz-65Hz vertical refresh range. I just looked up my Sega MC-2000S and it lists 50-60Hz, but does state a 15.75kHz horizontal scan specifically.

EDIT: sorry, i'm rambling, but i think this is worth talking about. I found several 2014 quotes from Jomac in a thread about MS8's which i'll take as gospel on the subject:

Quote
The MS8 has a very tight frequency band in 15K mode , absolute min of 15.450khz and Max of 16.050Khz , optimal is 15.750Khz , it also has a tight vertical range between 54Hz and 60Hz.

When ever they are operated outside of this range there is push and pull amplifier ( part of the little Hybrid Sync Module )that attempts to clamp the frequencies within the safe range , so if it is being run and absolute min or max listed above the amplifier / clamping section is working at maximum , if you exceed these limits these chassis most of the time are able to cope when the chassis is in perfect working condition.
I have measure on a CRO watching all sorts of Mame setups that are supposed to be blocking everything outside of 15K but at startup before there is even anything displayed I have seen anywhere from 13K to 17K before they settle to somewhere in the 15K range.

By no means am I saying don't use these monitors , I am only stating that 99% of all the failures I see with the Sync section on these are from machines running mame of some description.
There is no gradual or accumulative damage , they just work as normal and suddenly fail as with the chassis in this thread.
Quote
These monitors are great and fine to use as long as the everything has finished stabilizing before the power is switched on , it seems to be that most have failed during the bios screen but plenty more have died from soft15k.
It's the frequency changes they are not designed for that causes the damage , the games they were designed for are Xtal locked to a set frequency that never changes , I don't recall this problem ever happening with these when used on a genuine arcade board.
Quote
you have to keep in mind that most monitors have a wider tolerance than this model Nanao so it's not often an issue
Quote
Guys I'm not really sure how many other ways I can say this, I think I have more than made it clear that anything non genuine can and often does damage the MS8-26 and MS8-29 models ,( Not MS9 ) having the power off during boot up helps a lot but is not a guarantee.

And regarding the MS9's having the same issues as the MS8...
Quote
Not a problem at all with the MS9 , but you can still cause the horizontal drive to go out of spec and blow the horizontal output.

https://www.aussiearcade.com/archive/index.php/t-68425.html

This doesn't address the MS9's 31kHz sync band, of course, so more information in that area would be nice :)

« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 09:28:49 pm by buttersoft »

buttersoft

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Re: Nanao MS-2932-S at 800x600?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2019, 07:50:01 pm »
bump?