CRT Emudriver Hell

[FrizzleFried]

OK...well,  I just wasted a good 5-6 hours trying every which way to get CRT Emudriver to work with my new Ryzen 2200g rig.  According to the notes, it is supposed to be compatible but for the life of me I can NOT get at 15hkz signal out of the damn video card... period.   I have followed the "guide" from front to back (both guides actually just in case I was supposed to follow the "old" version) twice to no avail.  I can NEVER get any 15khz modes to show up and I can NEVER get it to kick my PC monitor out of range by kicking to 15khz.

I am at a loss.  I've tried uninstalling and re installing Radeon drivers... tried without ANY Radeon drivers... tried to reinstall the CRT Emudriver multiple times... all for nothing.  Same result.  30khz signal.

I am now here... asking for help... HELP....

Any suggestions?  This should not be this hard...

[digitron]

Only 6 hours???

Let me know if you get composite sync to work. lol

[FrizzleFried]

Something just isn't working.  The latest update says it supports Ryzen 3 2200g... which is what I am running... but there is NOTHING I can do to get the system to switch to even 640x480i ... nothing.

While the screen does go black... it always comes back... never to drop to 15khz.

>sigh<

I think I am stuck with getting an ArcadeVGA (when they are available)...



I even tried Soft15khz... not compatible with the APU (unsurprisingly).

Any other suggestions?  Any other ways to get 15khz?

[FrizzleFried]

Well... the local Best Buy has a R5 200 card for $39... I'm going to pick that bad boy up (also on the compatibility list) just for shits and giggles.   I've been watching some install vids and this should be as easy as installing the drivers and rebooting just to get a simple 15khz signal... that's not happening so I need to start there I think?

[Arroyo]

According to the notes, it is supposed to be compatible but for the life of me I can NOT get at 15hkz signal out of the damn video card... period.

From the Geedorah website:

“Be aware that newer GPUs don't have analog outputs. You can get 15 kHz support out of their HDMI ports, by means of a HDMI to VGA active adapter. However, video modes using low dotclocks will probably not work. Using super resolutions is the recommended solution.”

The last AMD card to support an analog output (by means of DVI-I) was the R9.  Anything newer and you will need a digital to analog converter, which is problematic in that it can introduce lag.....it would be better and easier to use an older graphics card.

[FrizzleFried]

According to the notes, it is supposed to be compatible but for the life of me I can NOT get at 15hkz signal out of the damn video card... period.

From the Geedorah website:

“Be aware that newer GPUs don't have analog outputs. You can get 15 kHz support out of their HDMI ports, by means of a HDMI to VGA active adapter. However, video modes using low dotclocks will probably not work. Using super resolutions is the recommended solution.”

The last AMD card to support an analog output (by means of DVI-I) was the R9.  Anything newer and you will need a digital to analog converter, which is problematic in that it can introduce lag.....it would be better and easier to use an older graphics card.

So the VGA port that is on the motherboard that I am using is not an analog port?

[Calamity]

So the VGA port that is on the motherboard that I am using is not an analog port?

It's analog but it's not one of the gpu's native outputs. The mother board's manufacturer adds its own DAC to the chipset so it converts one of the DP outputs to VGA. But from the gpu/drivers point of view it's still a DP output, so EDID emulation is not supported on it.

Just like Arroyo said, you can still use the HDMI output to get 15 kHz, but you need to add a separate HDMI-VGA active converter.

Hopefully when I have some time I'll build one of these: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,159988.0.html

[FrizzleFried]

So the VGA port that is on the motherboard that I am using is not an analog port?

It's analog but it's not one of the gpu's native outputs. The mother board's manufacturer adds its own DAC to the chipset so it converts one of the DP outputs to VGA. But from the gpu/drivers point of view it's still a DP output, so EDID emulation is not supported on it.

Just like Arroyo said, you can still use the HDMI output to get 15 kHz, but you need to add a separate HDMI-VGA active converter.

Hopefully when I have some time I'll build one of these: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,159988.0.html

Hmmm... so buying a R5 200 ... which also includes a VGA port... isn't going to help.  I guess just buying a HDMI to VGA converter is the way to go?  ...and thank you for the info!!

[Calamity]

Anything newer and you will need a digital to analog converter, which is problematic in that it can introduce lag.....it would be better and easier to use an older graphics card.

Lag? No. It's a direct conversion.

[Calamity]

Hmmm... so buying a R5 200 ... which also includes a VGA port... isn't going to help.  I guess just buying a HDMI to VGA converter is the way to go?  ...and thank you for the info!!

The R5 200 does include the DAC in it, because it's old. New GPUs don't include it.

You can get the R5 200 if you want the "easy" experience.

The HDMI-VGA introduces a bit more complexity.

[Arroyo]

Anything newer and you will need a digital to analog converter, which is problematic in that it can introduce lag.....it would be better and easier to use an older graphics card.

Lag? No. It's a direct conversion.

Really, that interesting, I thought any sampling or converting of signals would not inherently be as fast?  Good to know

[FrizzleFried]

Hmmm... so buying a R5 200 ... which also includes a VGA port... isn't going to help.  I guess just buying a HDMI to VGA converter is the way to go?  ...and thank you for the info!!

The R5 200 does include the DAC in it, because it's old. New GPUs don't include it.

You can get the R5 200 if you want the "easy" experience.

The HDMI-VGA introduces a bit more complexity.

Am I going to notice any frame rate drop from one solution to the other?  I'd take complexity/speed over ease/slower ... though if speed is the same,  obviously "easy" is desirable.  A HDMI to VGA converter is going to cost me $26... a new video card $39... $13.00 for ease is a no-brainer.

[Calamity]

I'd get both.

Anyway, the R5 won't cause any frame drops.

For me the APU idea is cool and makes for a cleaner setup.

You can use the experience and knowledge you achieve with the R5 to attempt the 2200G setup later.

[FrizzleFried]

Well,  it's a R5 220 ... and the good news is that I get an image on the CRT now.  The bad news is that it's still split.

With this card installed it comes up as a Radeon HD6570.   CRTEmudriver installs fine... and says it's finished... then I load VMMaker and...

It says NO COMPATIBLE DRIVER and many options are grayed out.





Is this not a compatible card???

Also... with regular Radeon drivers installed it works fine.  With CRTEmudriver installed it is very buggy and locks up the system, etc...

>argh<

And of course I didn't get the HD converter.

>argh!<

[Calamity]

Please make sure to download the correct version of CRT Emudriver (correct for your card).

EDIT: Well, actually make sure it's the latest one, since you also have a 2200G onboard, different versions can coexist so you need one that supports both simultaneously, the 2200G and the R5.

[FrizzleFried]

Please make sure to download the correct version of CRT Emudriver (correct for your card).

EDIT: Well, actually make sure it's the latest one, since you also have a 2200G onboard, different versions can coexist so you need one that supports both simultaneously, the 2200G and the R5.

I have tried both the latest (original version I tried) as well as 16.4 I think it is which is for the HD 6000 series and the latter is more stable (though not 100% stable) and... unfortunately... I still can NOT get a 15KHZ signal out of the damn thing. 

I've gotten as far as it saying I have two screens... and I can see one screen on the PC monitor but if I disconnect and connect the arcade monitor... then reboot... no love.  I get the typical double/triping of the screen that would be expected ...

I have YET to manage to experience 15khz no matter which version I've tried.

Any other suggestions??   I mean this SHOULD be easy... right?  I mean,  I've not even tried to CHANGE resolutions... yet.

FWIW... the latest version wouldn't work at all... though I will go back to trying it again.  What else can I do at this point?

[FrizzleFried]

OK... this is going back... and I'm getting the VGA to HDMI cable.  This keep crashing my system... I've tried both drivers individually both drivers together... tried installing before the radeon drivers after... tried it all.  It's just not working.



MAN I'd almost forgotten the frustration involved in dealing with a PC based MAME setup.

[Calamity]

Mate,

Leave it for some days. When you get to that point it's better to have a rest.

[FrizzleFried]

I'm a bit of a masochist it seems.

I now possess a HDMI to VGA cable. 

Any specific instruction would be helpful... otherwise I am going to just dive in.

[Calamity]

That was fast.

So what works for me is to enable EDID emulation on the HDMI output, then plug the HDMI->VGA adapter. Then create super resolutions with VMMaker (normal resolutions probably won't work). All this with latest drivers.

Good luck.

EDIT: It may happen 640x480i doesn't work, but go on and try the super resolutions.

[FrizzleFried]

OK... VGA is showing on HDMI as normal...

640x480 is at 30khz.

Every other resolution I attempt (320x240 for exampl) I now get my SYNC light on my JPAC flashing on and off and the screen flashing a rather "blank" looking "static" area...

I'm still JUST trying to get ANY 15khz signal at this point.  ANY resolution.  ANYthing...

[Calamity]

Focus on providing useful information, e.g. screenshots of VMMaker, etc.

[FrizzleFried]

OK... more bad news.  My JPAC will not sync with the HDMI to VGA converter.  It goes in to a continuous flashing loop...the LED attempts to sync then resets and mix and repeat... even when trying to display 640x480 VGA  (which produced the doubled screen before) now just a repeating flash.  It works fine with an LCD,  but it appares it isn't going to work with an arcade monitor...

...and of course I returned the card.

AND to make it all worse ... at this point... I can't cleanly uninstall the darned CRT Emudriver... it gets half way then errors out... AND when I did manage to get the new driver,  the older version I installed with the other video card was still in there but won't let me uninstall saying I have no compatible card.



At this point the whole freakin' thing appears to be hosed. 

ANY suggestion on how to completely remove BOTH CRT Emudrivers (it appears both versions are on there)  It's not like they appear in the REMOVE PROGRAMS list...

Any program you suggest to do such a thing?

I think we need to start there.  Then ... the HDMI port doesn't appear to be a viable option for the 2200G.  Are you aware of anyone who has actually successfully used theirs or am I beta testing here?   

I'm already a few hundred bucks in to this project... no going back.  What do I need to do/buy to get a 15khz signal I suppose is the ultimate question.  I've tried both suggested courses of action thus far and have failed.

[Calamity]

I told you, you need a rest. I've been there before. You're not in the proper psychollogical state to face this task.

You're one of the fist users attempting the APU path, you have no previous experience with the emudriver, you're tired, at this point you hate the software, please take a rest and try back in a few days, and then post a damned screenshot of each step, let us know when you get stuck, the exact screen, keep your posts as free of emotions as possible, etc.

Cheers.

[FrizzleFried]

I told you, you need a rest. I've been there before. You're not in the proper psychollogical state to face this task.

You're one of the fist users attempting the APU path, you have no previous experience with the emudriver, you're tired, at this point you hate the software, please take a rest and try back in a few days, and then post a damned screenshot of each step, let us know when you get stuck, the exact screen, keep your posts as free of emotions as possible, etc.

Cheers.

I am going to go back and pick that card up.  Thus far,  that's the closest I've gotten.  I can't imagine a world where this HDMI to VGA converter will work if it wont' sync even in 640x480 VGA mode with the double screen... that said,  I'll likely keep it for a bit.  I have 14 days to return it.

[Calamity]

The thing is, from my side nothing is clear. The information you provide has a lot of noise but very little useful data I can use to help you. Please next time start from scratch with a freshly installed Windows.

[FrizzleFried]

The thing is, from my side nothing is clear. The information you provide has a lot of noise but very little useful data I can use to help you. Please next time start from scratch with a freshly installed Windows.

I did...

...and I am now back to almost stock Windows... Windows driver...

I'm going to document each step.

[FrizzleFried]

BTW... are there any known BIOS settings that can potentially interfere with CRT Emudriver?  If so... which ones and should they be disabled or enabled?

I did go back and get that video card again.  That was the closest I've come.  I still have the HDMI to VGA cable but I suspect that, at least that one particular cable brand isn't compatible with my older JPAC.

[Arroyo]

I imagine you were having trouble because of the installation of drivers on top of each other.  I went through that when first attempting this as well.  If possible don’t allow the AMD drivers to install, use the generic ones that Windows assigns.  If you install a driver and it doesn’t work then “roll back” the driver to the generic one before attempting the new drivers.  This will help reduce errors.

[FrizzleFried]

If anything,  I am persistent.

A few things I learned this evening... (1) Do not continue to mess with things until you set up a QUICK RES function to get you back to where you can see things.  (2) This Ryzen 2200G does NOT much care for this R5 220 video card.  How about the fact that it's so unstable thus far that it's crashed/locked up multiple times... in the BIOS!  NOW,  you can't blame a windows setting for that.  It's very very strange indeed.

I am considering perhaps swapping the Ryzen 2200G with another CPU if I can't get things stable.

GOOD NEWS though... I've actually gotten to see 15khz through my arcade monitor.  I know it works now.  HOWEVER... for the life of me I can't seem to get 640x480i to work... and considering most of my attract mode front end layouts are at 640x480 that's pretty important.  Plus,  at that resolution I can make my way around windows via the arcade monitor. 

I am sure I can edit it somewhere to make it that windows is always at 640x480i ?

Thanks for the help thus far.

[Calamity]

You have a deadly combination of factors in there. Someone like me would manage to get it working with some effort (for sure), but if it's the first time you mess with CRT Emudriver your hardware choice should have been a simpler one. Specially if you're running an unstable setup, that should be sorted first.

The complication with the APU is that because it's an APU, you need some video drivers to get the system running to begin with, so when you drop in a discrete AMD card that needs its own drivers, both must not conflict.

If you start adding drivers over drivers you're doomed. Each Emudriver needs to be uninstalled using its own installer/uninstaller "Setup" program. You can't exchange them. It's pretty simple when you know the process, but it's a sure path to suicide if you start installing over installation over installation frenetically.

You can always is the Hardware Manager to get rid of drivers by right clicking on the particular device. Sometimes you need several iterations.

Setting up 15 kHz is often complicated for things external to CRT Emudriver, like being able to navigate blindly etc., experience helps solving most situations but sometimes these things are the real obstacle more than anything. Even the contortions one has to adopt to get to the back of the cabinet can waste your patience.

[FrizzleFried]

I am attempting to handle this one step at a time.  My next step is getting a stable "desktop" to work with with my arcade monitor.... which is what I am attempting to do.

Any suggestion on how to force 640x480 interlaced?  Every time I attempt to use 640x480 its progressive.  Is that the largest interlaced resolution a Wells Gardner K7000 will display?  Maybe 640x480 is hard coded or something in to it?

It is very strange... almost as if when there is no driver (before windows loads) ... it's very unstable.  Trying to get in to SAFE MODE is an exercise like none other... crashing at least 80% of the time... but once windows loads it seems fine... but I've not done a ton while in windows due primarily to the fact that I can't get 640x480 going and,  well,  I managed to find myself in a mode that both my PC LCD and arcade CRT wouldn't support... and it took a while to get back out of it.

EDIT: BTW ... FWIW,  while I am new with CRT Emudriver... I've been poking around on PC's,  MAME,  and Arcade monitors (and dedicated arcade machines) for over a dozen years (well,  PC's since my ole Commodore 64 days).  While I admit I don't know "it all" ... I am firmly confident that given enough time and stress... I could find it out! 

I'm a very "hands-on" kind of guy.  ...and while my frustrations get the better of me sometimes,  I rarely give up.

My apologies if my frustrations where offending at all.  That wasn't the intent.  To be 100% honest,  I WAS a little pissy in general.  See... I came in here to ask what a good MAME rig would be to build from scratch and when I got just about zero "specific" input, I decided to do a little research.  Everyone suggested going with Groovymame + CRT Emudriver.  I did a little looking back and forth between the CRT Emudriver page and my Amazon account and determined the best bang for the buck would be this 2200g system.  So I pulled the trigger based on the fact the CRT Emudriver "supports" the 2200g (based on the official list of supported parts)... and here we are. 

I was assuming at the time this APU had been used before and was actually a known working part with the software.   It seems that isn't the case exactly... that I am treading on some unexplored territory.  That's OK... now that I know this... I have no problem with that and I'm happy to help out where I can by doing my best to get this damn thing to work properly... but yea,  I "WAS" hoping to build a nice MAME rig for about $300.00 that could handle anything ... and do it easily.  Welp... at leas I have two of the three checked thus far... but that's OK... I like a challenge...

So I am back to needing to know how to get do 640x480i.  Today is Memorial Day I am spending a lot of time with the family rather than out in the garagecade working on this project.... but I plan to poke my head out there from time to time when I can.  BEFORE I do anything else... I need to setup a QUICKRES application to hotkey a usable resolution so I don't get locked out of the damn system again.

Any / all other tips/tricks/suggestions are always welcome.

[krick]

Before trying to set up CRT_Emudriver, I would install Windows normally, along with any required motherboard/chipset drivers and then run some stress tests to make sure your hardware set-up is stable.  Windows shouldn't crash while going in to safe mode.

[Calamity]

640x480i is automatically set once you enable 15kHz EDID emulation on a certain output. It will stick at 640x480i unless you switch to another mode manually.

I'm using CRT Emudriver here on a Vega 56 so I know it works on your hardware (99% sure, if you prefer).

By now I'd focus on seeing why your system crashes. RAM maybe? Make sure you have a rock solid system before messing with hacked drivers.

[FrizzleFried]

640x480i is automatically set once you enable 15kHz EDID emulation on a certain output. It will stick at 640x480i unless you switch to another mode manually.

I'm using CRT Emudriver here on a Vega 56 so I know it works on your hardware (99% sure, if you prefer).

By now I'd focus on seeing why your system crashes. RAM maybe? Make sure you have a rock solid system before messing with hacked drivers.

I am using the R5 220 video card... not the on board GPU.  My cabinet would simply not sync using the HDMI to VGA converter... it kept attempting to sync and then not syncing...

If you have another idea on how I could use the onboard GPU,  I'd much rather do so as the system is VERY stable without this video card installed.

Another HDMI to VG converter MAY work,  but I used the only one available at the local Best Buy store... an Insignia model... and I'm not about to play games "checking" to see if multiple units will work.  I don't have the money to do that especially.


The system only crashes with the video card installed... and only when NOT in windows (thus far).  I suspect there is some sort of conflict ... perhaps even as deep as the BIOS levels...

If there was only some way I could avoid using this video card... if the damn on-board VGA output would work... all would be well... but...

[FrizzleFried]

BTW... just for the heck of it I just checked the HDMI to VGA converter using the video card rather than the on-board video... same result... flashing "sync" LED and no sync happening.  It's plainly obvious this HDMI to VGA converter is incompatible with the JPAC I have...

[FrizzleFried]

FWIW... switching to EDID manually does not change my system to interlaced mode... but it DOES give me many other modes to choose from and when I choose them it switches to those 15khz modes... but none are 640x480i ... and as soon as I select 640x480 (the one available) it kicks back to 640x480p...

...it seems I remember it REJECTING 640x480 (as well as a few other modes) when I installed the modes.  I'll keep playing around.... which give me more opportunity to test stability.  I really am bummed that I am being forced to use this additional video card to be 100% honest.  It's SOOOO much slower (in PC gaming) than the on board video (about 25-30% the speed)... plus the damn instability issues that only appear when I have it installed. 

[Calamity]

BTW... just for the heck of it I just checked the HDMI to VGA converter using the video card rather than the on-board video... same result... flashing "sync" LED and no sync happening.  It's plainly obvious this HDMI to VGA converter is incompatible with the JPAC I have...

Your JPAC knows nothing about HDMI converters, it just grabs an incoming signal and filters it. And we can do whatever we want with that signal so the JPAC won't notice. Probably you're outputting default vesa modes and your JPAC can't handle those. This doesn't mean it won't work once you start outputting the correct signal. Specifically, you need to enable EDID emulation over the HDMI output of the card you're using (you may even try this with the R5).

You may be right and that HDMI converter be crap after all. I've just tested a couple of them, but I'd say most of them must use the same chip.

[Calamity]

FWIW... switching to EDID manually does not change my system to interlaced mode... but it DOES give me many other modes to choose from and when I choose them it switches to those 15khz modes... but none are 640x480i ... and as soon as I select 640x480 (the one available) it kicks back to 640x480p...

...it seems I remember it REJECTING 640x480 (as well as a few other modes) when I installed the modes.  I'll keep playing around.... which give me more opportunity to test stability.  I really am bummed that I am being forced to use this additional video card to be 100% honest.  It's SOOOO much slower (in PC gaming) than the on board video (about 25-30% the speed)... plus the damn instability issues that only appear when I have it installed.

The goal is to remove the R5.

Rejecting 640x480i sounds like you weren't actually using the patched driver, or you were trying to installed modes on an unsupported output (DP).

Please, for your next post, include a snapshot of the VMMaker showing the issue.

[FrizzleFried]

FWIW... switching to EDID manually does not change my system to interlaced mode... but it DOES give me many other modes to choose from and when I choose them it switches to those 15khz modes... but none are 640x480i ... and as soon as I select 640x480 (the one available) it kicks back to 640x480p...

...it seems I remember it REJECTING 640x480 (as well as a few other modes) when I installed the modes.  I'll keep playing around.... which give me more opportunity to test stability.  I really am bummed that I am being forced to use this additional video card to be 100% honest.  It's SOOOO much slower (in PC gaming) than the on board video (about 25-30% the speed)... plus the damn instability issues that only appear when I have it installed.

The goal is to remove the R5.

Rejecting 640x480i sounds like you weren't actually using the patched driver, or you were trying to installed modes on an unsupported output (DP).

Please, for your next post, include a snapshot of the VMMaker showing the issue.

Then how was I able to run at 320x240 on my arcade monitor?

OK... if the goal is to remove the R5,  what am I doing trying to get it to work?  The ONLY way,  according to you,  for this to work with the on-board video is via the HDMI output.

Unfortunately, the HDMI to VGA converter I have isn't going to work.  I just tried to use my laptop to display 640x480p (doubled) on the arcade monitor and I get the very same "repeating" sync issue.

What exactly would you suggest my next plan of action is?  I ask because right now,  the furthest along I have gotten is WITH the R5 installed... i have actual 15khz video ... just not 640x480i ... if I switch to 320x240 it switches to 15khz and it looks beautiful on my arcade monitor.  I just need 640x480i...

Thus far as well I have NOT crashed while I have been in windows ... and with the R5 installed...

UNFORTUNATELY however... I just discovered the the QUICKRES program I was hoping I could use as a "failsafe" to make sure the system drops back to a usable resolution ... it doesn't seem to work for me.

Any suggestions on how i can program a hotkey to MAKE SURE I can get back to 640x480p in the case of a problem?