CRT TV 60 Hz - should I use GroovyMAME?

[meco1999]

I've been reading about GroovyMAME to learn about it, but I'm still not sure if I should use it. I have an RCA CRT TV (NTSC) (model F19430), and I'd like to get a reasonably accurate arcade machine picture on it. I've heard GroovyMAME is only for arcade monitors or CRT TVs with SCART connectors. Do I need to mod my TV and put in a SCART connection (i.e. cut hole in back of TV and install it)? Ouch. Or can I just use a VGA-to-composite adapter and connect TV to my PC with composite cables? Composite connectors are the only type of connector the TV has, other than the coaxial cable connection. I've never even seen a TV in person with a SCART connection, maybe because I'm from the US? 

[keilmillerjr]

We dont have scart in usa. We have rf, composite, and for a short while component - but composite was dominant. I have had awful luck with hdmi -> composite adapters, so i tend to stay away from them. Currently using a raspberry pi because it has composite out at a fixed 50/60hz 480i/240p. Not the best solution, but easy. Following for other ideas for us usa guys.

[Recapnation]

You should use GM, it's that TV set what you should stay away from. Really, there's no reason in 2019 to tolerate composite video's deprivations. Alternatives for you US people:

- Arcade monitor (+ custom case + adapters) / 15-kHz broadcast monitor

- 15-kHz YPP-compatible TV set (+ transcoder)

- 120-Hz VGA CRT PC monitor (there're ~20'' units out there)

- Low-lag LCD monitor (+ shaders and whatnot)

The former solution is usually expensive, but any of the above is way better than composite video (or even S-video, if you ask me).

[keilmillerjr]

You should use GM, it's that TV set what you should stay away from. Really, there's no reason in 2019 to tolerate composite video's deprivations. Alternatives for you US people:

- Arcade monitor (+ custom case + adapters) / 15-kHz broadcast monitor

- 15-kHz YPP-compatible TV set (+ transcoder)

- 120-Hz VGA CRT PC monitor (there're ~20'' units out there)

- Low-lag LCD monitor (+ shaders and whatnot)

The former solution is usually expensive, but any of the above is way better than composite video (or even S-video, if you ask me).

Those solutions are not practical for a “console”, but ok perhaps for an arcade machine of something stationary. I can take my rpi with composite to my fathers when my kids sleep over his house. Everything here is composite, like it or not. I just wish the pi handled it a little better. But it works. Pi + shaders + lcd = god awful.

[snappleman]

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get the absolute best picture quality, that's a rabbit hole you'll never get out of, use what you have and enjoy playing games. Your CRT will be fine, chances are you can mod it for RGB or Component or even Svideo which all look good. If you must use composite then the best way to do that is by getting a 240p S-video signal out of your PC and using an S-video to composite cable from amazon. Composite video from NES and SNES consoles was good but no matter what you do these days you will not get a good composite signal out of a PC.

Once you get started and get a feel for whether you want to continue on the CRT path then you can hit craigslist and start searching for a CRT with Component or Svideo connections. Don't fill your house up with these things before you even know it's something you want to pursue, cuz they're hard to get rid of.

[Recapnation]

Are you both sure you haven't mistaken this forum for some other?

[keilmillerjr]

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get the absolute best picture quality, that's a rabbit hole you'll never get out of, use what you have and enjoy playing games. Your CRT will be fine, chances are you can mod it for RGB or Component or even Svideo which all look good. If you must use composite then the best way to do that is by getting a 240p S-video signal out of your PC and using an S-video to composite cable from amazon. Composite video from NES and SNES consoles was good but no matter what you do these days you will not get a good composite signal out of a PC.

Once you get started and get a feel for whether you want to continue on the CRT path then you can hit craigslist and start searching for a CRT with Component or Svideo connections. Don't fill your house up with these things before you even know it's something you want to pursue, cuz they're hard to get rid of.

nes and snes operate at 50/60hz 239/240 lines... so you can get a perfect output via composite from rpi.

[snappleman]

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get the absolute best picture quality, that's a rabbit hole you'll never get out of, use what you have and enjoy playing games. Your CRT will be fine, chances are you can mod it for RGB or Component or even Svideo which all look good. If you must use composite then the best way to do that is by getting a 240p S-video signal out of your PC and using an S-video to composite cable from amazon. Composite video from NES and SNES consoles was good but no matter what you do these days you will not get a good composite signal out of a PC.

Once you get started and get a feel for whether you want to continue on the CRT path then you can hit craigslist and start searching for a CRT with Component or Svideo connections. Don't fill your house up with these things before you even know it's something you want to pursue, cuz they're hard to get rid of.

nes and snes operate at 50/60hz 239/240 lines... so you can get a perfect output via composite from rpi.

Can you tell me how? I have a Pi and retrotink and the composite is completely useless on it (looks worse than model 3 Genesis). On the Pi I use component out, and sometimes Svideo depending on what the TV supports, but for TVs with composite only I use an Svideo-Composite cable.

[keilmillerjr]

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get the absolute best picture quality, that's a rabbit hole you'll never get out of, use what you have and enjoy playing games. Your CRT will be fine, chances are you can mod it for RGB or Component or even Svideo which all look good. If you must use composite then the best way to do that is by getting a 240p S-video signal out of your PC and using an S-video to composite cable from amazon. Composite video from NES and SNES consoles was good but no matter what you do these days you will not get a good composite signal out of a PC.

Once you get started and get a feel for whether you want to continue on the CRT path then you can hit craigslist and start searching for a CRT with Component or Svideo connections. Don't fill your house up with these things before you even know it's something you want to pursue, cuz they're hard to get rid of.

nes and snes operate at 50/60hz 239/240 lines... so you can get a perfect output via composite from rpi.

Can you tell me how? I have a Pi and retrotink and the composite is completely useless on it (looks worse than model 3 Genesis). On the Pi I use component out, and sometimes Svideo depending on what the TV supports, but for TVs with composite only I use an Svideo-Composite cable.

Perhaps you have a bad cable? Retrotink seems to make an awesome product, though i have not used.

I am using a ttrs cable with sdtv_mode = 16. Using a script to help adjust overscan.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/config-txt/video.md
https://github.com/ukscone/set_overscan/

[snappleman]

Yeah I spent months working on the pi to get decent composite, but from everything I read it looked like getting accurate timings were impossible on it because of the pixel clock being locked or something similar, I forget the details. Either way my overall point is that composite is good for giving you an idea if you even want to go down the CRT path (if it's your only current option), then you should start looking for a better way to do it.

[Recapnation]

"For giving you an idea" of what? Of this?

a reasonably accurate arcade machine picture on it.

Laughs. He'll see how awful that looks and then think why bother.

Please, stop spreading nonsense.

[Substring]

Yeah I spent months working on the pi to get decent composite, but from everything I read it looked like getting accurate timings were impossible on it because of the pixel clock being locked or something similar, I forget the details. Either way my overall point is that composite is good for giving you an idea if you even want to go down the CRT path (if it's your only current option), then you should start looking for a better way to do it.

Indeed getting accurate timings (i.e. perfect matching pixel clock) is, for now, impossible on the pi. The raspberry foundation seems not eager to invest some time on this, despite the hardware is supposed to handle any pixel clock.

The only solution for now is using super resolutions, and several projects have achieved some rather good results with this method : using a 1920x240 resolution, and then adjusting the width of the image. But only retroarch allows that. And retroarch should have a native Pi support for super resolutions, haven't check recently the state of this feature.

[Arroyo]

Hey Mecco, before you make any decisions read up on this website:

https://www.retrorgb.com/rgbmonitors.html

There is a big difference in picture quality when choosing a connection type.  Here’s an example:



You should aim to get an RGB signal into any monitor/TV.  It’s possible to do with most TV sets despite having a Composite/Co-Axial (RF) connection, there are ways to mod the chassis of a TV and inject an RGB signal, but it means learning more about CRT’s, understanding the safety in removing the casing and getting comfortable with researching the chassis PCB and soldering.

If that sounds like too much then the next easiest option is to find a TV with Component inputs, and using a transcoder.  It’s more expensive due to the transcoder, and you will have to play a guessing game on if the TV will accept the various refresh rates of arcade games.  PVM’s are a simple solution but expensive and smaller.  Arcade monitors are also an easy solution if you can find one as they have RGB readily available and accept various refresh rates for games.

If you want to try RGB modding that TV start doing Google searches for “RGB mod TV”, there are good YouTube videos and websites dedicated to it such as this:
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=56155

EDIT:  you can also try a tube swap by buying an Arcade chassis online and using the tube from your TV.  Again more complex and requires learning more about how a CRT works.

[sharpfork]

If that sounds like too much then the next easiest option is to find a TV with Component inputs, and using a transcoder.  It’s more expensive due to the transcoder, and you will have to play a guessing game on if the TV will accept the various refresh rates of arcade games. 

I'd like to know more about the transcoder and what am I looking for in the guessing game?  I have two 480 CRT cabs with component video in and am looking at options for moving to a PC brain for emulation.

Thanks!

[Arroyo]

I have two 480 CRT cabs with component video in and am looking at options for moving to a PC brain for emulation.
Thanks!

What are the monitors you are using, or are you saying you are researching what to get?

[sharpfork]

I have two 480 CRT cabs with component video in and am looking at options for moving to a PC brain for emulation.
Thanks!

What are the monitors you are using, or are you saying you are researching what to get?

I have had deceased flat glass CRT TVs with component (and s-video/composite) in my cabs for over ten years.  Horizontal cab has a 27" Sony trinitron and my tate has what I think is a Toshiba brand.  It is a 25" with the Component called "color Stream".  I don't know the models of either but might be able to figure it out from the PCBs.

I researched more last night and am digging into the idea of a Retrotek VGACTV1 + CRT Emudriver 2.0 + grooveyMAME (or Retro arch).

Thanks!

[Arroyo]

So I’ve picked probably 10+ CRT’s in the last 8 months.  4 were Sony Trinitron flat tubes, 1 Sony PVM, a couple of Arcade monitors and 5 old school standard curved CRT TV’s.  Just giving you some background, I haven’t tried them all but here’s what I can tell you.

The flat screen Trinitrons I’ve tested are KV-FV310, KV-FV300, and KV-FS12, all three of which I was using the component inputs and a Retrotek VGACTV1. 

I’m using this with an AMD R7 240 card and using CRT Emulation driver to output the native resolution AND refresh rates.

First off the picture is beautiful on a properly calibrated TV, HOWEVER, the issue comes when trying to play games with refresh rates lower than 60hz (a lot of Midway games from the 90’s like NBA Jam, Smash TV, Mortal Kombat series, and a lot of vertical games, Galaga, Pac-Man, etc.)

These TV’s, and from what I’ve read with talking with other owners who have confirmed (KV-FS120) just wont handle the lower refresh rates they will either produce a picture that looks like it has a pebble thrown in water with wobbly edges, or it will produce a constantly scrolling vertical image. I should clarify that I’m talking U.S. models many folks in European countries don’t seem to have this issue as they operate on the PAL standard which is a lower refresh rate.

I’ve picked up a generic 20inch TV that happened to have component inputs and it had no issue displaying these games.  Arcade monitors and professional or broadcast monitors have no issue playing these games.

Older CRT’s with the more traditional curves most likely will have less issue, although I’ve only tested that one.  The issue with these is that they don’t usually have component inputs and so the only way to get a really good picture is to perform an RGB mod of the chassis (see my link in above post).  They can also sometimes be tube swapped with an Arcade chassis (electronics that drive the TV tube).

I haven’t tried other brands of flat screens like Mitsubishi Diamondtron, or the Toshiba’s or others.  They are all using Sony’s until then, proprietary aperture grill, which I figured would mean a similar chassis to drive them and similar issues with refresh rates, but it’s possible it could be different and work.

When asking the question to other folks who know a lot there doesn’t appear to be a way to know if a consumer TV will have these issues or not, you have to try and see what happens.

See these threads if you want to read up on some the experiences in more detail with the Sony’s:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,159544.0.html

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,159464.0.html

User Neilalphazeta started a number topics trying to get this working on his Sony.  You can lookup threads started by him in the GroovyMame sub-forum.  There is some compromises you can do to get these games working but they are compromises (resolution, speed of the game, etc.) but really they are less than ideal arcade monitors.  Great for consoles though.

[sharpfork]

First off the picture is beautiful on a properly calibrated TV, HOWEVER, the issue comes when trying to play games with refresh rates lower than 60hz (a lot of Midway games from the 90’s like NBA Jam, Smash TV, Mortal Kombat series, and a lot of vertical games, Galaga, Pac-Man, etc.)

lots to consider there, thank you for the thoughtful response.  All I have at this point is the Flat Glass Component CRTs and 3 year old PC that needs a video card.  I don't mind picking up a Retrotek VGACTV1 and video card.  Any recommendations for a CRT Emudriver 2.0 compatible, more recent video card? I know I can RTFM and pick one that is supported but figured I'd ask.

[Arroyo]

Any recommendations for a CRT Emudriver 2.0 compatible, more recent video card?

Seems getting a AMD HD-5000 or newer, up to an R9, would be good as you use the latest version of drivers and still have native analog output without having to get a digital to analog converter.

I guess it depends on what you want it to run, only 80s/90's games, or more modern games?  The more modern the games the higher the GPU.  As you can see I am not running the newest card, and I have yet to run into any issues with Arcade games.  I've even run Wii games and haven't really run into too much trouble.

EDIT:  you can read up more about it here:
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=295