New Build need suggestions for part

[idgarad]

Objective:

4 Player Station for PC\Retropie builds.

Per player

• 1 Joystick
  
• 10 Buttons per player (1-8, coin, start)
  
• 1 Spinner for each player (We play a lot of Warlords)
  

Universal Command Station

• Single Trackball
  
• L/R Mouse buttons
  
• Save \ Load buttons for snapshots
  
  

Optional

• LED Lit buttons (5v, don't want too bright)
  
• Dedicated save\load slot selector buttons
  

I originally was going to build each of the 4 joystick stations to be standalone but would 'fit' together with a dedicated navigation center (So think 5 pedestals, 4 identical player stations (each with a spinner) on one small control station with the trackball)

I wanted to make each of them standalone pedestals so they are easier\lighter to move then one big console.

I need to build a part list so I can start budgeting.

As I see it however I would need at a minimum 8 USB ports to drive 4 a 4 player setup assuming I use something like an IPAC but if I use something else that doesn't have a spinner\track ball on board then I am looking at 3 USBs per player for a total of 12 USB ports. I am concerned that using a USB hub on the command station might increase latencies but then I would only need to run 3 USB cables from the command station to a PC or Retropie unit. Cosmetically I am not too worried about the cables from the 4 stations since the only time they would be split out is when playing fighting games for extra elbow room.

Budget wise I can build the command station and player 1, then as my fun account recharges just replicate the player stations for 2-4 players.

Thoughts, suggestions, comments?

[Titchgamer]

Sounds to me like you are going to give yaself one Almighty headache with that many inputs!

Each spinner is 1x USB port so 4 in total.
Plus the trackball thats 5x.

Then you have the encoder which is another 1 or 2 depending.

And the main problem you will have is fixing the USB id’s down otherwise they will change every time you turn on and off.

I would ask yaself do you really need all of that and how often will you use it.

It can be done but its going to be very pricey and a headache to set up.

[keilmillerjr]

For great mame inspirational ideas Click Here!

[PL1]

Before you go any further, you should read the "2.1 What type of build meets my needs?" section of the FAQ. (located in the wiki)

A few general observations:

1. Four single-player separate stations is a lot more woodworking and finishing effort than one 4-player or two 2-player setups. (P1/P2/trackball/"command center" and P3/P4?)

2. 8 buttons per player is almost certainly overkill.
- Make a list of your "gotta' have" games. ("All of them" ==> guaranteed fail)
- How many buttons do those games actually need?

3. I agree that instead of 4 gamepad encoders, you'll probably want to go with keyboard encoders like an IPac4 or two IPac2's.
- One or two USBs instead of four.
- No issues with Windows changing which gamepad is assigned to which player.

4. You can reduce the number of optical (mouse) encoders to three -- possibly two if you can put two spinners on the Z-axis, but you might run into the Windows Scroll Wheel (Z-axis) 4x problem.
- One for trackball. (X-axis and Y-axis)
- One for two spinners. (X-axis and Y-axis)
- One for the other two spinners. (X-axis and Y-axis)
- Enable "multimouse" to keep the devices separate.
- If you use two IPac2's, you can use the trackball pins for X-axis and Y-axis on each IPac.
- If you'd like to save a few bucks on optical encoders, consider using StefanBurger's Illuminated Spinner firmware on an Arduino Pro Micro.

5. You can save a lot of money using rotary encoders like this one instead of a TT2 or SpinTrak.
- Not as nice or high quality, but they work well.
- Harder to mount in a wood panel unless you can 3d print a mount.

6. LED buttons
- For less brightness, lower current draw, and longer life, run 12v LEDs off 5v.
- I usually use them for admin buttons, but not for player buttons.  YMMV.

7. Mouse buttons
- Once you finish setting up the system, do you really need them?
- Lots of guys keep a cordless keyboard handy for just such an emergency.


Scott

[Mike A]

I use this keyboard. It was like 15 bucks on Amazon. It is the size of an Xbox controller, but much thinner.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[idgarad]

Talked with a wood working buddy and he came up with a novel way to handle the 4 player station. He quickly mocked up a tongue and groove setup so the whole station can be broke down and moved. The joystick console simply has two large slots in the bottom that fit into the base. The base is similarly slot fitted so the whole thing can be flat packed away with a lock lid that fits over the top of the unit for transportation. Since I am older I can't build a full cabinet, it would be impossible to move but this setup seems slick. Moving the joystick panel itself ideally will be a two person operation but his mockup has two handles on the back (Think like a electronic piano gig case, that is what he actually based the mockup on). 30 lbs was his estimate. Mine was closer to 40lbs.


For me this build is more a Museum piece so getting the highest % of usable games is needed. I did timing on a 12 port USB hub and there doesn't appear to be any extra latency so I think internally I'll mount the hub and then I have just a single USB coming out. Question will be how a Pi digests the hub. Windows 10 doesn't seem to care but I haven't tested the latency with 4 players worth of crap running through it.

Wiring is trivial for me, I've been elbow deep in in considerably more complex wiring projects, just never worked with IPACs and encoders. That part doesn't worry me at all.

I noticed that a lot of kits have pre-done wiring harnesses so my guess is I should use pre-existing joystick \ button templates so I can keep the spacing proper. The only thing I think I have to modify is finding space for the 4 spinners then.

I was thinking using 4 Xin-Mo XM-09s for each station giving me joystick behavior (And 12 buttons total per player, and let the nephew plug it in to his PS/Xbox) so there is 4 USB. Which gives me 5v LED control. Don't need super bright, just enough to see the buttons.

Then I was thinking an pair of IPAC 2 to drive the spinners and some utility buttons for save\load\select snapshots and a pause button. +2 USB
(Was thinking Save state (A), Load State (B), Save State +(C), Save Stat - (D), Next Shader (E), Previous Shader (F), Pause(G), Screen Shot (H))
CD - G - EF
-A----H----B-

As top row

Lastly just leaving the trackball as it's own USB device +1 USB.

That means 7 total USB ports which I can easily do with a USB 3 8 port hub and results in a single USB cable going to the machine and possibly an external wall wart for power.

Was thinking putting the spinner north of the buttons for each player. With Coin and Start on the facing surface of each player

[Mike A]

Yeah. What do any of the people here know about building arcade cabinets? Don't listen to any of them. Everyone will enjoy wading through a list of 20000 games. Oh and all of those joysticks and spinners and buttons will be super intuitive.

There is a reason PL1 and Titch posted what they did. Listen to the arcade control guys and not your woodworking buddy. Listen to the woodworking guy when you need some furniture built.

[Osirus23]

People here (including and especially myself) are rude and poignant, but their advice is sound.

[Mike A]

I only said what I did because he completely disregarded sound advice from two solid guys. It annoys me. Why bother asking for advice if the OP already knows everything? To me that is rude.

[Osirus23]

I only said what I did because he completely disregarded sound advice from two solid guys. It annoys me. Why bother asking for advice if the OP already knows everything? To me that is rude.

You did nothing wrong.

[idgarad]

Yeah. What do any of the people here know about building arcade cabinets? Don't listen to any of them. Everyone will enjoy wading through a list of 20000 games. Oh and all of those joysticks and spinners and buttons will be super intuitive.

There is a reason PL1 and Titch posted what they did. Listen to the arcade control guys and not your woodworking buddy. Listen to the woodworking guy when you need some furniture built.

Odd since I literally took PL1's suggestions down to the two IPacs and Andy Warne's suggestions on managing the spinners and track ball. So where exactly am I disregarding their input?

[Mike A]

Good luck with your build smart guy. I am out.

[Titchgamer]

If this is a "history piece" you defo do not need 8 buttons per player.
How many traditional arcade cabs have you seen with 4 players and 8 buttons??
Most old games used between 1-3 with the exception of things like SF2 which nearly all used 6.
You never got to 8 buttons until you get to PS1 era games.

Also be aware of your power draws if you are using a Rpi they are not great with hubs and lots of peripherals not to mention the even bigger headache of configuring them all.

If this is what you really want to do go for it, Build what you feel man but dont say we didnt warn you 

[Howard_Casto]

You know what really annoys me?  This is the 5th post essentially asking the same damn thing.  So not only are people not listening to veterans' advice, they don't even bother to look at the recent posts before making their own. 

A 2 Player panel, one 8-way stick per player and a maximum of 6-8 buttons per player plus a start button.  No grubby admin buttons or anything.  If this is your first cab that is what you should be building.  If you have grand designs for something else, save that for a future build.  I assure you though,  unless you are really hardcore,  that second build will probably never come because you'll be perfectly satisfied with that layout. 

[PL1]

The advice part of my earlier post is the first line about going through the design process in the FAQ.

The rest is general info/observations not intended as encouragement to proceed, but mentioned in case you do.

I agree with Howard that for almost everyone the place to start is with a simple 2 player setup.
- You may want a few dedicated admin buttons (Coin, Start, Exit, and Pause are the most common ones) instead of using "shifted functions".  There's a section of the FAQ that covers the pros and cons of each approach.
- Depending on your "gotta' have it" game list, spinner(s) and/or a trackball might be worth it.
- If you want the option to use other controllers, one or two external USB ports like the Neutrik NAUSB-W-B might be worth it.

By doing a 2P build first, you'll have a chance to explore the "Unknown Unknowns" of emulation/controls/interfaces and find what you like/don't like and, more importantly, what you need/don't need.   


Scott

[Osirus23]

Do a 1:1 mockup of the 4-player/10 buttons per layout first. Maybe seeing the absurdity up close will give you a moment of clarity.

[idgarad]

Do a 1:1 mockup of the 4-player/10 buttons per layout first. Maybe seeing the absurdity up close will give you a moment of clarity.

X-Arcade Tank Stick is literally a 10 button setup per player. I was just going to copy that layout but shift the coin and start to the front face which frees up the top row where the start buttons would be normally. Then throw the 3rd and 4th player at about a 30 degree to keep the length down. That gives me plenty of space to fit in the usb hub. I tested the hub with 6 controllers on it and at least windows 10 digests it all just fine and timing doesn't seem to add any lag at all. On USB3 port there seems to be enough power to the devices but the hub has a supplimental power adapter up to 34v. My only concern is I'd like to avoid putting in a dedicated power supply for the LEDS with 40+ buttons at 5v each. So I am thinking of just keeping LEDS on player 1 and the utility buttons.

[Felsir]

Do a 1:1 mockup of the 4-player/10 buttons per layout first.

This is actually very sound advice. Do you have any idea of dimensions?

For me this build is more a Museum piece so getting the highest % of usable games is needed.

Everyone will enjoy wading through a list of 20000 games. Oh and all of those joysticks and spinners and buttons will be super intuitive.

A lot of us are building these things with a sense of nostalgia. Whom is your target audience?

Because if it is "museum piece" just for yourself; do the exercise: take a blank piece of paper (or open Notepad.exe) and write down as many games as you can think of. Any videogame you remember. The resulting list will be less than 2% of what is out there. Then again, less than 15% of your list are games you are likely to play on the cabinet.

If the museum piece is for your buddies- pick the games you and your buddies will actually play; Simpsons, X-Men, Gauntlet, Towerfall, Broforce etc.

If the museum piece is for anyone else, put Miss Pacman, Space Invaders, Bubble Bobble and Galaga on it. They will only play it once because they will ask "Nice, does it play Pacman?" and then play it out of courtesey because your response is an enthousiastic "Yes ofcourse!". These category of people don't care that your machine can play Super Shanghai Dragon's Eye.

Seriously reconsider the 10 button per player build. Only a handfull of games support that many buttons.
Even with a 2 player, 6 button layout- you will be anwering the question "so... what button is jump?" more often than you like.

[javeryh]

Definitely build a full-sized mock up of your control panel out of cardboard or something.  You will be surprised how freaking huge the thing you are proposing actually is.  Trust people here when they say you do not need it to play as many games as possible.  That is a recipe for disaster.  Everyone that comes over just wants to play Galaga or Ms. Pac-Man or Donkey Kong or Frogger.

[idgarad]

Do a 1:1 mockup of the 4-player/10 buttons per layout first.

This is actually very sound advice. Do you have any idea of dimensions?

For me this build is more a Museum piece so getting the highest % of usable games is needed.

Everyone will enjoy wading through a list of 20000 games. Oh and all of those joysticks and spinners and buttons will be super intuitive.

A lot of us are building these things with a sense of nostalgia. Whom is your target audience?

Because if it is "museum piece" just for yourself; do the exercise: take a blank piece of paper (or open Notepad.exe) and write down as many games as you can think of. Any videogame you remember. The resulting list will be less than 2% of what is out there. Then again, less than 15% of your list are games you are likely to play on the cabinet.

If the museum piece is for your buddies- pick the games you and your buddies will actually play; Simpsons, X-Men, Gauntlet, Towerfall, Broforce etc.

If the museum piece is for anyone else, put Miss Pacman, Space Invaders, Bubble Bobble and Galaga on it. They will only play it once because they will ask "Nice, does it play Pacman?" and then play it out of courtesey because your response is an enthousiastic "Yes ofcourse!". These category of people don't care that your machine can play Super Shanghai Dragon's Eye.

Seriously reconsider the 10 button per player build. Only a handfull of games support that many buttons.
Even with a 2 player, 6 button layout- you will be anwering the question "so... what button is jump?" more often than you like.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't a typical playstation controller 10 buttons? L1,L2,R1,R2,Select,Start,ABXY? Wouldn't it be simpler to treat each controller just as a typical PS1 style controller without the analog sticks? Seems to hit the highest % of compatibility and most EmuStation configs and Mame already have configs for that. Retroarch already has configs for that. I've already tested using 5 controllers the 5th acting as those admin buttons I planned. The only thing I am really adding is 4 spinners and a trackball.

[Mike A]

Try to play a game with ten buttons in an arcade layout. Read the countless threads where people try to play these games and it is a complete failure. Playstation games are meant to be played with a Playstation controller. Perverting them to another configuration is a dumb idea.

[idgarad]

Try to play a game with ten buttons in an arcade layout. Read the countless threads where people try to play these games and it is a complete failure. Playstation games are meant to be played with a Playstation controller. Perverting them to another configuration is a dumb idea.

You mean like the X-Arcade tank stick which is 10 buttons? Seems to work just fine. What is the problem with the X-Arcade Tank Stick?

[Mike A]

.

[Titchgamer]

.

Dont waste ya breath Mike....

[javeryh]

Holy crap a 4 player cabinet with 10(!!!) buttons and a spinner for each player plus a trackball is absolutely bonkers. 

[opt2not]

[Gilrock]

I looked up the X-Arcade tank stick and I only see 8 buttons per player.  Building 4 independent stations seems crazy.  When we were all together at ZapCon one of the things I heard joked about several times was how every new person wants to build a 4-player aircraft carrier.  Then the day I get home here's this post...lol.  Seriously do you really have 3 friends that are going to want to come over and play?  Or was the thinking more along the lines of "if you build it they will come".

[idgarad]

I looked up the X-Arcade tank stick and I only see 8 buttons per player.  Building 4 independent stations seems crazy.  When we were all together at ZapCon one of the things I heard joked about several times was how every new person wants to build a 4-player aircraft carrier.  Then the day I get home here's this post...lol.  Seriously do you really have 3 friends that are going to want to come over and play?  Or was the thinking more along the lines of "if you build it they will come".

There is a start button and a coin button for each player.

https://shop.xgaming.com/collections/arcade-joysticks/products/x-arcade-tankstick-trackball-usb-included

There is literally 10 buttons per player.

[Felsir]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't a typical playstation controller 10 buttons? L1,L2,R1,R2,Select,Start,ABXY? Wouldn't it be simpler to treat each controller just as a typical PS1 style controller without the analog sticks? Seems to hit the highest % of compatibility and most EmuStation configs and Mame already have configs for that. Retroarch already has configs for that. I've already tested using 5 controllers the 5th acting as those admin buttons I planned. The only thing I am really adding is 4 spinners and a trackball.

The issue is, the tank stick is a ‘fight’ stick. The layout is often used for versus fighting games.
The missing analog stick is exactly the problem in many PSX era games. Also shoulder button layout: try SSX, impossible to play. Race games? These feel akward with such layout and often rely on analog controls for throttle and steering. Gamecube games? A lot need the additional analog and yellow stick.
Other than a handful of games and the arcade fighters, a cheap gamepad will outperform the tankstick for playing  most post SNES era games. Hence the “many have tried”  Mike A was referring to.

True, Retroarch and many emulators have configs for those. Retroarch also expects you to have a gamepad connected as default. Most emulators provide the config options but that doesn’t mean the tankstick makes the games playable.

I recommend build or buy a tankstick, play a few weeks and then decide if you want to do this. Let alone make four. With spinners.

[keilmillerjr]

I didnt think he would actually follow my clickbait crapmame link. Sorry. That backfired.

[ZTylerDurden717]

oof

[idgarad]

I don't see how it is terribly bonkers. The Megacade 2496 for example has everything I've described and more. I don't see a need for 3 extra joysticks they have for example, or light guns. I'm just looking to move the start and coin buttons to the skirt for example and reuse some space at the top for some admin buttons.



I'd order one of those (Sans the upper portion) but I am just bored and need a project to keep me busy and something to do with my nephews.

I'm honestly disappointed in the conduct here. I expected better.

[pbj]

Woof.

[Mike A]

You keep picking examples of horrible designs. That abomination makes me sad. Take a guess how much I care about your disappointment? Everyone here has told you how bad your idea is. You continually ignore that fact. Open your eyes and try to learn something.

[Malenko]

Woof.

I know. only 1 trackball? Pleb.


Also, Hi Felsir! Big fan.

[Titchgamer]

I don't see how it is terribly bonkers. The Megacade 2496 for example has everything I've described and more. I don't see a need for 3 extra joysticks they have for example, or light guns. I'm just looking to move the start and coin buttons to the skirt for example and reuse some space at the top for some admin buttons.



I'd order one of those (Sans the upper portion) but I am just bored and need a project to keep me busy and something to do with my nephews.

I'm honestly disappointed in the conduct here. I expected better.

That picture right there sums up the whole problem.

Mario Kart GP.

Ever played it with a joystick? Go on give it a go.

[Mr. Peabody]

I was going to quote and upvote Felsir's comment....and then you posted that picture and explained a little, and I changed my mind. Go for it. Come back and tell us you told us so.

[javeryh]

I'm honestly disappointed in the conduct here. I expected better.

This makes me kind of sad because I wish the forums were more active and we can be hard on first timers but I assure you we are all trying to give you good advice because we've made similar mistakes in the past.  The most common one is trying to build a cabinet that plays "everything".  The one you posted is freaking gigantic.  The trackball in the middle is 3" in diameter for scale.  It's way too big.  There are too many control schemes to cover everything.  I mean you can't even play Q*bert and Pac-Man properly on the same cabinet without sacrificing and they both use 4-way joysticks.  The widescreen monitor will barely be used (and look horrible for 3:4 games, which will get a ton of play).  The button layout is so confusing - I've been playing arcade games for 35 years and it would take me an hour to figure out everything - imagine someone coming over who has no idea.  Simplicity is often overlooked but it is critical to a well-functioning cabinet.  If there was an optimal design, trust me we would point you to it. 

Browse the Project Announcement forum.  Check out the Hall of Fame thread that is stickied.  Read and then read some more.  There are so many inspirational projects that accomplish a lot of what you want to do but in a way more streamlined manner.  People can be harsh here because harsh criticism will make for a better end result.  If you want to be praised no matter what you build then the r/cade subreddit will suit you better - they love almost any POS cabinet over there that someone slaps together in a weekend.  If you stick around here you will learn a ton I promise.   

[Mike A]

I don't think we are hard on new people. We are hard on new people who come in and ignore the years and years of experience that are contained here. Most of these guys come in without looking through the projects threads. They announce their ridiculous idea and then get mad when everyone tells them it is a terrible idea. Walk into anywhere else and act like that. I assure you the reception will be the same.

[javeryh]

I don't think we are hard on new people. We are hard on new people who come in and ignore the years and years of experience that are contained here. Most of these guys come in without looking through the projects threads. They announce their ridiculous idea and then get mad when everyone tells them it is a terrible idea. Walk into anywhere else and act like that. I assure you the reception will be the same.

Exactly right.