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Author Topic: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?  (Read 7826 times)

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leapinlew

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Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« on: December 15, 2018, 09:52:59 pm »
It's so crazy how cool "retro" is right now. There is no shortage of merchandise and tons of options to play your classic arcade games and to decorate a game room. Microcenter carries everything you need to build a machine, Arcade1up and Tinyarcade exist, retropie can be setup in 1/50th the time it took to setup MameWah. At one point, we were hacking keyboards, waiting for new Mame releases, using marble contact paper, and spending some serious cash to wax nostalgia.

It's just .... crazy.

if there is one thing I know, it's that this too shall pass. One day, Arcade1up & Tinyarcade will litter yard sales, people will once again give away machines for free to clear it from their house and finding a Pac-Man shirt will be difficult. My love for arcades will transcend this new fad, but what about you? I think we are in a bit of a retro bubble and I wonder what the other side looks like.



keilmillerjr

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2018, 10:14:30 pm »
I saw today in Walmart on an end cap they are promoting a Namco flashback hdmi stick with a 6 action button wireless controller so you can play all favorite 0-1 button classic games! Yes! You now have options for which button you use to fire at those pesky enemy swarms!

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2018, 11:51:52 pm »
It's so crazy how cool "retro" is right now. There is no shortage of merchandise and tons of options to play your classic arcade games and to decorate a game room. Microcenter carries everything you need to build a machine, Arcade1up and Tinyarcade exist, retropie can be setup in 1/50th the time it took to setup MameWah. At one point, we were hacking keyboards, waiting for new Mame releases, using marble contact paper, and spending some serious cash to wax nostalgia.

It's just .... crazy.

if there is one thing I know, it's that this too shall pass. One day, Arcade1up & Tinyarcade will litter yard sales, people will once again give away machines for free to clear it from their house and finding a Pac-Man shirt will be difficult. My love for arcades will transcend this new fad, but what about you? I think we are in a bit of a retro bubble and I wonder what the other side looks like.

I think it is something bigger than that.  I fear it is some sort of experiment to see a viable legal action from those financial institutions whom have been quiet/dormant and now waking up against the procreation of rom sites, such as the recent legal action of Nintendoh demonstrates.  You might see this hobby outlawed, especially if Joe public starts buying these crap retro units.  I mean the recent PSX questionable hardware offering from Sony is prime example.  I for one am glad I got my collection safe.  Just creating new projects on this site could bring unwanted attention from the FBI.

10 billion for the old Donkey Kong IP is shocking.  Nintendoh could be planning a coup right now, monitoring your Switch behaviors for tell-tale signs.  It has the resources, and 18 years in planning.  All this free gaming will come to an end.  Look at Napster and companies like Apple, Deezer, Spotify, Amazon.  Who has been p2peering mp3s recently?  Right?

It will all end in tears. Better hide those rom collection HDDs under the bed.   Just remember where you heard it first.  :P
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Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2018, 12:37:50 am »
Yeah, I want whatever Ark’s been smoking tonight. :cheers:

I don’t think people like US have to worry about it. It’s people trying to make a buck, selling multicades and things like that, that might need to worry.

I’m assuming all these toys and stuff you see is officially licensed in some way.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2018, 08:12:46 am »
I've wondered if the relaxing of MAME's usage policies a couple years ago had anything to do with it.  They may not be running MAME, but you can be sure the programmers used it as a reference.

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2018, 08:44:34 am »
I've wondered if the relaxing of MAME's usage policies a couple years ago had anything to do with it.  They may not be running MAME, but you can be sure the programmers used it as a reference.

The 1upArcade units are running an old version of MAME, except the SF cab.


Its not paradise or jumping the shark, its just a cash grab riding the trend.
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leapinlew

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2018, 10:48:20 am »
Its not paradise or jumping the shark, its just a cash grab riding the trend.

Not to split hairs, but that was the intent of calling it a fad and/or bubble. Jumping the shark, in this case, means past the peak. I believe we are basically saying the same thing. Which was the point of the question really, do you expect much more retro arcade gear? I don't know how much cheaper it can get really and I don't know how many times I'll buy Galaga repackaged.  :P


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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2018, 11:31:59 am »
I don't know how much cheaper it can get really and I don't know how many times I'll buy Galaga repackaged.  :P

Was thinking the same thing and then saw on brickseek that one of the local stores had lowered the price of Galaga and Pacman to $150 - wound up buying both and then returned the Pacman with the receipt from Black Friday to the other store and got the $250 I paid for it back !

It's hard not to buy once the price point gets down to less than what it would cost you to build something similar. I'll probably still finish the build I had started of a Mame Cab based on the shape of these - but for $50 more than I had already spent on the Pacman cab to get both the Pacman and Galaga - pretty much already built and with the artwork included it was just too hard to pass up !!

AND I must say so far those 2 have had no problems the assembly was simple (took about 40 minutes) and everything just fit together and they look great ( Sure they are not the sturdiest of builds but as long as you take care of them and don't abuse them they seem plenty sturdy to last awhile and for $300 for the pair they are definitely worth that !)

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2018, 12:13:54 pm »
Not to split hairs, but that was the intent of calling it a fad and/or bubble.
You misused the idiom, that's not on me.

There has not been a decline in quality. All of these mini handhelds and cabinets have been terrible in terms of quality of design and quality of emulation. The only bright spots were the SNES and NES classics but those 2 highlights are just the exception to the rule.
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Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2018, 12:46:17 pm »
Interesting topic.

For me personally, I’m just not interested in any of these retro toys. To me, it’s just ultimately more clutter. I don’t begrudge anyone that wants to buy them, I just don’t see the appeal of owning a mini Galaga when I have a real one at home.

I know some people have one at work for like a conversation starter, which I guess I could get behind if someone gave me one. But I’m not actively out seeking them. I just walk past them when I see them at the store. I don’t know, maybe if I were 10 again, I know I’d want one badly, but I’m not so I don’t.

The only bit of retro stuff I have like this is the Atari Flashback Portable 2, and that’s because the SD slot makes it a pretty good time waster.
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Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2018, 12:51:51 pm »
Oh, and I remember when I started teaching in the late 90s, 70s bellbottoms made a comeback. Girls wore them for like a few months, and they faded away again. I have a feeling after this Christmas season the dearth of these things will quietly fade away as well. You’ll still probably have the @Games stuff, but everyone else will move on to the next thing.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2018, 01:05:18 pm »
Oh, and I remember when I started teaching in the late 90s, 70s bellbottoms made a comeback. Girls wore them for like a few months, and they faded away again. I have a feeling after this Christmas season the dearth of these things will quietly fade away as well. You’ll still probably have the @Games stuff, but everyone else will move on to the next thing.

Looks like Nintendo has already decided they are moving on - once they sell through the existing inventory of the NES and SNES they have pretty much said that future products will be more digital releases on the Switch etc. instead of retro consoles - So wouldn't be surprised if other companies follow suit.

Will be interesting to see what Arcade1Up winds up doing and where the retail pricing on their cabs wind up after the holiday. They are already working on next years releases but if the prices keep dropping like they have been on the existing inventory they may decide to move to something else as well ( will be interesting to see if they ever release the bartop and cocktail models they had shown awhile back and what the pricing on them winds up being.) - It's a shame they didn't have their act together a bit more as the product could have really been good but they missed the quality control bit and have really damaged their chances and all these price drops to get sales aren't going to help them as people are going to be more likely to wait and see if the next series prices do the same rather than buying them at full retail when they release and retailers may even decide they don't want to carry them if there is no profit margin left.

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Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2018, 01:11:34 pm »
Oh, and I remember when I started teaching in the late 90s, 70s bellbottoms made a comeback. Girls wore them for like a few months, and they faded away again. I have a feeling after this Christmas season the dearth of these things will quietly fade away as well. You’ll still probably have the @Games stuff, but everyone else will move on to the next thing.

Looks like Nintendo has already decided they are moving on - once they sell through the existing inventory of the NES and SNES they have pretty much said that future products will be more digital releases on the Switch etc. instead of retro consoles - So wouldn't be surprised if other companies follow suit.

Will be interesting to see what Arcade1Up winds up doing and where the retail pricing on their cabs wind up after the holiday. They are already working on next years releases but if the prices keep dropping like they have been on the existing inventory they may decide to move to something else as well ( will be interesting to see if they ever release the bartop and cocktail models they had shown awhile back and what the pricing on them winds up being.) - It's a shame they didn't have their act together a bit more as the product could have really been good but they missed the quality control bit and have really damaged their chances and all these price drops to get sales aren't going to help them as people are going to be more likely to wait and see if the next series prices do the same rather than buying them at full retail when they release and retailers may even decide they don't want to carry them if there is no profit margin left.

From what I read on a few Facebook groups, apparently some of the retailers are not happy with the product and the amount of returns they were seeing, and are not planning to stock them anymore. One thing I know is true (because A1Up referenced it on their official site) is that Costco, for example, declined to continue carrying them, effective immediately. That can’t bode well.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 01:22:01 pm by yotsuya »
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2018, 02:39:36 pm »
I kind of predicted that companies would start riding on the coattails of mame when the license changed, but it fell upon deaf ears.  We'll see a lot more of these fly-by-night companies selling novelties made from arm chips running mame over the next few years.  That being said I think it's a shame because arcade1up seems to "get it" in terms of what people want, but I'm guessing production was rushed to get stuff ready for the holiday season and nobody bothered to wear test the machines before they were sent to stores.  If the quality was a little better they might have a hit on their hands, but as-is they are just too junky for the price. 


As for Nintendo they made it quite clear in interviews that the NES/SNES classics were stop-gaps until the switch made them some money, and it has, so it's done.  They'd much rather throw the nes roms on their online service and have you buy $60 nes gamepads (which is crazy).  Sony, as per-usual, blatently copies whatever Nintendo does, and again, as per usual, totally misses the point of why the original product was so popular.  I saw a bunch of stores selling them for $75 online with a $25 gift card, so my guess is they can't give those away. 


I think this 80's culture nostalgia with reproduction everything 80's is similar to the 50's/60's nostalgia that we saw in the 80's and 90's.  It'll hang around for a while in terms of pop-culture, but the actual products are going to get culled as the years roll on, with only the best stuff surviving. 

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2018, 02:40:50 pm »
Oh, and I remember when I started teaching in the late 90s, 70s bellbottoms made a comeback. Girls wore them for like a few months, and they faded away again. I have a feeling after this Christmas season the dearth of these things will quietly fade away as well. You’ll still probably have the @Games stuff, but everyone else will move on to the next thing.

Looks like Nintendo has already decided they are moving on - once they sell through the existing inventory of the NES and SNES they have pretty much said that future products will be more digital releases on the Switch etc. instead of retro consoles - So wouldn't be surprised if other companies follow suit.

Will be interesting to see what Arcade1Up winds up doing and where the retail pricing on their cabs wind up after the holiday. They are already working on next years releases but if the prices keep dropping like they have been on the existing inventory they may decide to move to something else as well ( will be interesting to see if they ever release the bartop and cocktail models they had shown awhile back and what the pricing on them winds up being.) - It's a shame they didn't have their act together a bit more as the product could have really been good but they missed the quality control bit and have really damaged their chances and all these price drops to get sales aren't going to help them as people are going to be more likely to wait and see if the next series prices do the same rather than buying them at full retail when they release and retailers may even decide they don't want to carry them if there is no profit margin left.

From what I read on a few Facebook groups, apparently some of the retailers are not happy with the product and the amount of returns they were seeing, and are not planning to stock them anymore. One thing I know is true (because A1Up referenced it on their official site) is that Costco, for example, declined to continue carrying them, effective immediately. That can’t bode well.

Totally agree. I don't know much about the retail side, but doesn't marking a product down to 50% off before Christmas seem backward? I don't see how they'll be able to stay afloat if the price point everyone thinks they will get if they wait is $150.

As for the rest of the merchandise... I guess enough people have decided to dedicate some space in their house to a gameroom. There are lots of good Arcade decorations. I do like picking up a shirt or two, but it's a little different now. Now I look like I'm following a trend. 

I'm going to take a trip to Micro-center and check out their arcade scene, just to see.

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2018, 02:41:32 pm »
if there is one thing I know, it's that this too shall pass. One day, Arcade1up & Tinyarcade will litter yard sales, people will once again give away machines for free to clear it from their house and finding a Pac-Man shirt will be difficult. My love for arcades will transcend this new fad, but what about you? I think we are in a bit of a retro bubble and I wonder what the other side looks like.

I was just talking to my youngest about retro t-shirts the other day.  My kids like to wear my old retro stuff I've (ahem) grown out of. and we were looking through a box of stuff I've saved.  In the 90's it was a lot harder to find this stuff and thus a lot more fun to wear.  Now that you can walk into a Kohl's and buy not only a Star Wars t-shirt but a Star Wars Atari Arcade game t-shirt it just isn't as fun.

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2018, 03:13:02 pm »
I kind of predicted that companies would start riding on the coattails of mame when the license changed, but it fell upon deaf ears.  We'll see a lot more of these fly-by-night companies selling novelties made from arm chips running mame over the next few years.  That being said I think it's a shame because arcade1up seems to "get it" in terms of what people want, but I'm guessing production was rushed to get stuff ready for the holiday season and nobody bothered to wear test the machines before they were sent to stores.  If the quality was a little better they might have a hit on their hands, but as-is they are just too junky for the price. 

We'd be quite happy for them to be using MAME with licensed ROMs if they actually used a version from after the license changed.  It would represent a legitimate use of our technology in a way that we could support.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.

They would have done this regardless of license change, because they clearly set out with intent to violate (or just plain ignore) the licenses of the software they were using hence also entirely hiding that it was MAME until somebody hacked one open.  Had they been open about using MAME, and actually followed the law (ie use 0.172 or higher) the team would even have been happy for them to slap the MAME logo somewhere on the packaging.  Instead they chose to hide it, and use a version they couldn't legally use.  As I said elsewhere, Sony showed how you do this the legal way with the Playstation Classic.

This is no different to the Chinese bootleggers who have been using MAME like this for 15+ years.  Wouldn't even surprise me if they outsourced it to the same people.  It has nothing to do with the license change.

People are reporting that at least some of the units also contain extra ROMs, not available from the frontend, but still clearly there without any kind of license otherwise they would be available for selection.  Simply being on the unit is another copyright infringement however.

I mean, I'll agree, they'll be some people taking advantage of the license change for less than positive reasons, it's a risk we have to accept, but this isn't one of those cases, this is people who couldn't give a monkeys from the start, hoping that their violation wouldn't be noticed, or that by the time it was they'd already made enough money that everything being pulled from stores wouldn't matter.  I'm told a team member has notified a number of the outlets carrying these things that they are copyright violations, which may well affect the choice to restock or not.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 03:22:38 pm by Haze »

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2018, 03:47:10 pm »
Good info, Haze.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2018, 04:06:58 pm »
This stuff ebbs and flows. The technology is so cheap that vendors are taking another chance. We've been through this before..

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2018, 10:01:34 pm »
Instead they chose to hide it, and use a version they couldn't legally use.

Again, sue them or STFU.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2018, 11:04:03 pm »
Yeah pretty much.  The problem about mame having a public license to begin with is that, as far as I know anyway, the mame team doesn't have a staff of lawyers to enforce said license.  It does have something to do with the license btw.... it was made public but since mame was in existence long before the license change, it can be confusing to third parties. So even though I'm sure it isn't meant to be retro-actively applied and is worded to that effect, since there's no lawsuit to enforce it, people are take advantage of it, even inadvertently...so the wording means squat.  All I know is prior to the license change the only people that dared to put mame on commercial products were shady foreign companies in regions where ip isn't strictly protected.  Post license change we are seeing mame pop up on products available at Walmart. 


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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2018, 01:03:54 am »
Quote
We'd be quite happy for them to be using MAME with licensed ROMs if they actually used a version from after the license changed.  It would represent a legitimate use of our technology in a way that we could support.

That would give you an excuse or clause to use if someone brought a copyright suit,  You (MAME) gave the Chinese a legitimate/easy way to sell xx in 1s.  You guys didn't bat an eye when they removed all the copyright credentials in the early versions, heck you even added it to the Mame library.  Hypocritical about it now don't you think?  This gives a legitimate way for any company to bundle licensed roms in a product for retail sale.  Thinking about it, a great way to give back to the copyright holders to make money from their IP.  :applaud: 

Quote
They would have done this regardless of license change, because they clearly set out with intent to violate (or just plain ignore) the licenses of the software they were using hence also entirely hiding that it was MAME until somebody hacked one open.  Had they been open about using MAME, and actually followed the law (ie use 0.172 or higher) the team would even have been happy for them to slap the MAME logo somewhere on the packaging.  Instead they chose to hide it, and use a version they couldn't legally use.  As I said elsewhere, Sony showed how you do this the legal way with the Playstation Classic.

 :laugh2:  Sorry that was funny.  Slap a MAME logo.......  Do any companies donate money to MAME when they print copyrighted mame logo artwork for collectors or hobbyists?  Does mame invoke any website takedowns?  No money eh?  I guess Dave Foley was on to something.

Quote
People are reporting that at least some of the units also contain extra ROMs, not available from the frontend, but still clearly there without any kind of license otherwise they would be available for selection.  Simply being on the unit is another copyright infringement however.

Quote
I mean, I'll agree, they'll be some people taking advantage of the license change for less than positive reasons, it's a risk we have to accept, but this isn't one of those cases, this is people who couldn't give a monkeys from the start, hoping that their violation wouldn't be noticed, or that by the time it was they'd already made enough money that everything being pulled from stores wouldn't matter.  I'm told a team member has notified a number of the outlets carrying these things that they are copyright violations, which may well affect the choice to restock or not.

Is this speculation or do you have any evidence of this?  Is this officially from MAME or are you thinking out loud?  I wonder what 1UP Arcades would think of that.   ::)

The reason why mamedevs will not do anything or anyone else for that matter:




Instead they chose to hide it, and use a version they couldn't legally use.

Again, sue them or STFU.

Indeed.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2018, 07:25:57 am »
We'd be quite happy for them to be using MAME with licensed ROMs if they actually used a version from after the license changed.  It would represent a legitimate use of our technology in a way that we could support.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.

They would have done this regardless of license change, because they clearly set out with intent to violate (or just plain ignore) the licenses of the software they were using hence also entirely hiding that it was MAME until somebody hacked one open.  Had they been open about using MAME, and actually followed the law (ie use 0.172 or higher) the team would even have been happy for them to slap the MAME logo somewhere on the packaging.  Instead they chose to hide it, and use a version they couldn't legally use.  As I said elsewhere, Sony showed how you do this the legal way with the Playstation Classic.

This is no different to the Chinese bootleggers who have been using MAME like this for 15+ years.  Wouldn't even surprise me if they outsourced it to the same people.  It has nothing to do with the license change.

People are reporting that at least some of the units also contain extra ROMs, not available from the frontend, but still clearly there without any kind of license otherwise they would be available for selection.  Simply being on the unit is another copyright infringement however.

I mean, I'll agree, they'll be some people taking advantage of the license change for less than positive reasons, it's a risk we have to accept, but this isn't one of those cases, this is people who couldn't give a monkeys from the start, hoping that their violation wouldn't be noticed, or that by the time it was they'd already made enough money that everything being pulled from stores wouldn't matter.  I'm told a team member has notified a number of the outlets carrying these things that they are copyright violations, which may well affect the choice to restock or not.

But who’s the actual victim of this heinous crime?

The current MAME development team doesn’t appear to care. Why should they? They’ve already agreed in principle that it’s beneficial for the MAME project to be re-licenced under GPL2. Indeed, they don’t even bother mentioning on their website that the new licence is only applicable to MAME version 0.172 and higher. That fact alone would give Arcade 1up a pretty strong defence in the unlikely event that they were ever sued.

Also, a far as I’m aware, no past contributor has ever explicitly objected to the licence change (at least you’ve never mentioned this in any of your many previous posts on this subject).

So that just leaves the tiny number of contributors that the current MAME devs were unable to contact about the licence change. Theoretically, they might object, but in reality they almost certainly wouldn’t. One would assume that if they still cared about MAME (and are still alive), they’d remain in touch. In any case, it’s up to them to pursue Arcade 1up (if they care enough about it), not you.

tl;dr – chill out, this is a non-issue.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2018, 01:17:01 pm »
The continued trolling from ark_ader does not even warrant a reply.

The facts have been stated, the machines are illegal except for the SF2 ones, some of the bigger outlets have been advised of this.

You can defend them all you want and try to write MAME off as the thing that is in the wrong, but there are enough precedents with Open Source licensing etc. that it's not even worth my time trying to educate such an intentionally abusive audience.

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2018, 01:32:00 pm »
The facts have been stated, the machines are illegal except for the SF2 ones, some of the bigger outlets have been advised of this.

ANd has A1U or Tastemakers been advised ?? If so what has their response been - or are you just contacting the distributors without even notifying the manufacturer. You said you'd be happy to see them use Mame but then have you even tried to contact them to explain your position on how they are violating the terms of use (which on your site says it is free to use without mention that that stipulates that new versions are free to use but not versions older than a specific point ? )

YOur site merely states :

Quote
License

MAME
Copyright (C) 1997-2018  MAMEDev and contributors

This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
(at your option) any later version.

This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
GNU General Public License for more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along
with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc.,
51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA.


I don't see any mention that this license only applies to versions after a certain point so how would a company that is not familiar with the history of the project know using an older version is not allowed even if they had gone to your site to read the license information it only says that it is free to use, redistribute or modify.

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2018, 02:03:53 pm »
I don't see any mention that this license only applies to versions after a certain point so how would a company that is not familiar with the history of the project know using an older version is not allowed even if they had gone to your site to read the license information it only says that it is free to use, redistribute or modify.

because it's 100% standard practice that license changes can't be retroactive, it doesn't *need* to be stated.  You follow the license that was included with the software you obtained, and make sure you obtain it from the original source.

It's actually scary to think that some people don't know that, if you work at any games / software development company it's one of the first things that is drilled into you so that you don't accidentally end up contaminating their codebases.

I even had it explained to me for a recent piece of work, because they wanted to make absolutely sure I wasn't going to take anything from older versions of MAME that I'd worked on.  Knowing I was from an open source background they'd researched the work I'd done prior as part of the recruitment process.  It wasn't even relevant to the job (it was non-emulation work) and they still researched it.  Of course i explained that I was well aware of the situation, but still, as part of their standard due diligence they wanted to make sure.

It's actually in stark contrast to cases where I've been approached for emulation work, then during the initial 'interview' they've asked if I'd just be able to close my eyes and pretend the old code was fine to use, to which I've said I can't, and almost certainly as a result I've not had any follow up of a job / contract offer.  Most of these developers know they're not meant to be using it but presumably already have codebases based on it.

Use 0.172 or newer, follow the appropriate licenses for the parts you use, job done.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 02:37:02 pm by Haze »

TheManuel

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2018, 02:28:25 pm »
I don't think the fad will last more than a month or two after these holidays.  With the flood of bad products out there, this will all come down crashing soon.  My favorite part of all this is that commercial about a teenager playing Galaga (I can't remember for sure) in an 80's arcade, and then flash-forwards to him as an adult and his kid asking him for help to play one of those mini-cabs.

Now, regarding the bickering here, and especially on MAMEWorld, I have to admit that I don't remember things being so dicey before I went on a hobby hiatus about 6 years ago or so, and I have been in this scene on and off since 2001.  There used to be all kinds of trolls as there are on any forums, but some of the in-fighting I've seen on these two forums since becoming active again the last couple of months, is of a more chronic nature than I remember and between regular members, instead of just trolls.  There is also less active membership too, apparently.  I kind of remember the forums being more active.

I think we're just getting old, or at least I should speak for myself, but I bet at least half of us here are forties or older.

"Can we all just get along?"  ;D
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2018, 02:49:54 pm »
Some day an actual lawyer will comment on these threads.

Some.... day....

 :'(

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2018, 03:09:07 pm »
Use whatever version you want ,ignore the licenses, MAME group wont lift a finger.

FTFY
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2018, 07:55:59 pm »
I get what Haze is saying. It’s up to the A1Up people, not MAMEDev, to do their due diligence and make sure the version of MAME is correctly “licensed”. If you go to the website, the License assumes you’re using it for the most current version. If you download .083 because it works best with your cellphone processor, you need to look at the .083 license. Common sense.

Anyway, I’m 99% sure the A1Up guys were the idea men and someone in China took care of the details.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2018, 08:22:14 pm »
Well, considering as they're clearly a Pandoras Box joystick panel bolted to an LCD I'd say that's a safe bet.

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2018, 11:06:33 pm »
I didn't say they weren't at fault, they clearly are.  It's just that this is how people/companies are is all.  I'm not trying to pick a fight anyway. 

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2018, 12:02:34 am »
Quote
The continued trolling from ark_ader does not even warrant a reply.

You cannot reply, because you cannot defend it, as it is damn near to the bone.  If anyone is to blame it is the ones that use the emulator for games.  The hobbyists.  We the community actively encouraged you to do it and eventually became the superstar, the software developer in you is guarding authorship.  He has to otherwise all is lost. (his interview tells all)  He has as much say in the availability of MAME in retail as I do.  It is all conjecture.

That being said, at least we are in agreement that MAME served its purpose and can be laid to rest.  The rest of the hacks devs (if you can call them that) will not fix the 10000000000 bugs currently in it and the latest versions come with so much broken bloat, M$ could take a page from their book.  Maybe some kind soul will attempt the impossible and at least get the colors right.  Maybe in 20 years when us old joystick stranglers have another Amazon retro revival.

We can look back and say it was a cool ride and thank Haze for all this good work and efforts.   :applaud:

I didn't say they weren't at fault, they clearly are.  It's just that this is how people/companies are is all.  I'm not trying to pick a fight anyway. 

The fight left him years ago.  Just humor him.

Use whatever version you want, ignore the licenses, MAME group wont lift a finger.


Use whatever you want and call it something else, everyone else does, just don't tell Haze.  ;)
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2018, 05:12:52 am »
Plus arguing with a mamedev like Haze is a lot like wrestling a pig in the mud; after a while you realize the pig likes it.  :hissy

Indeed, one should take MAME as it is and do whatever he wants with it, never talk or answer directly to mamedevs like him if it's to say anything but "thank you!" or "you're right!" which are the only words they want to hear, ever.
Or maybe formally contribute to the project with a dump/donation/bug-report then forget about it, no one should involve any further than that if he wants to keep his sanity.
Even better; avoid reading them at all, never inquire about their ideology, opinions and policy statements because a fair part are too f*up and will inevitably trigger dismay and anger. The whatsnew.txt is all the news we need from mamedev.
Then any questions and help needed we ask people who've learned to stay at a healthy-enough distance from them and the echo-herd (or what's left of it)

To answer the topic I think one major issue with the retro wave is that it started with a passion for rediscovering and exploring real used games+hardware, then it crashed when it all morphed into collection-mania and pseudo-retro-business.
What maybe still a lot of people haven't yet realized is that emulation followed the same curve, the thriving era is long over and these days anything better, the refinements we hoped for only come to us in tiny doses through slow often unexciting development(s), we'll hardly ever experience earth-shattering emu news again nor witness full-circleness in several areas (lost of things were achieved and completed, lots will never be no matter how long we wait or spend) or in other words; our expectations were a bit too high.

If we could be really honest though, we'd admit that for a lot of us we're way past the age for all that retro video games stuff, and that goes for mamedevs too
(who in fact for most never really cared about games but are rather a group of extreme geeks more interested in hardware and code and living their specific flavour of the fantasy away from the rest of the other retro crowds, which surely is the most ironic thing that's happened in the entire history of that 'retro' period considering how heavily they contributed to stimulate it against their own - stated - standards)
The retro-game demographics no matter which group they fit into, purist gamers, collectors, realist or alien devs, and 'fast-food emu' customers, will continue to decrease to extinction no matter what.
Oh well, like the mammoths and a select few ancient world species, tiny pockets will survive the extinction event for some more time on isolated islands (forums) like you know, now.  :P

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2018, 09:12:01 am »
Can somebody catch me up on any recent history that explains why nowadays the MAME team is binned under the same category as the Antichrist?

Surely  there is an objective set of circumstances that has led to this, rather than just ranting out of boredom.  I had been away from the hobby for years and find myself a bit disoriented by this crossfire.  It's easy to take MAME for granted now that it is rather mature and emulates so many games well, but it's taken a lot of people a lot of effort to get there, and that should not be so quickly disregarded.  Sure, MAME is not exciting anymore, in terms of development, what with all the focus on useless (to me) gambling machines, but that's in part because most of the fertile emulation ground on arcade machines has already been covered; most of the low hanging fruit plucked.

The MAME team has also catered to people like us that use it just for entertainment, by implementing features like HLSL, bringing back hiscore support, multiple control options, etc., so it's not just been dry documentation work with total disregard for what users want.

I'm not trying to be the MAME fanboy here, even if it sounds that way, but I'm just honestly confused by all the hostility.  Somebody please list the many grievances that have resulted in the buildup of the attitude reflected here towards MAME.  I'll keep an open mind.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2018, 10:08:03 am »
Can somebody catch me up on any recent history that explains why nowadays the MAME team is binned under the same category as the Antichrist?
Wow hold on a minute, that's considerably exaggerating things here, MAME has a long history, it's many things and people, overall it's awesome and everyone's glad it exists, but there's also aspects where MAME disappointed, some choices they've made and attitudes, narratives that have generated disagreement and infuriated/alienated part of the users.
I'm one of them, I have criticism sometimes strong, but that doesn't mean I think MAME is crap nor that I'm looking down on the long list of people who contributed to make it. Maybe some genuinely hate MAME, if so that's overkill.

As for detailing, it would be too long and that's pointless anyway because such discussions will always be fruitless, which was my main point on the MAME part; that it's mostly useless to interact with mamedev if you have anything but thanks or contribution to bring.
Also this would derail the thread too much :p
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 10:10:29 am by schmerzkaufen »

Malenko

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2018, 10:50:21 am »
Can somebody catch me up on any recent history that explains why nowadays the MAME team is binned under the same category as the Antichrist?

No nobody has an issue with MAME or the MAME dev team, that I know of.  I'm just tired of hearing about the MAME copyright and license, on how people are doing it wrong, and Haze not taking the needed steps to enforce the license. Its not a new thing, been going on for a really long time. I can respect Haze for the work he's done but still get irritated about hearing the same tripe over and over.  I doubt he's even done the most menial task of trying contacting Arcade 1up.

I don't have a MAME cab, none of my arcade machines run emulation. The closest thing to an emulator I use is the Darksoft loaders for my CPS2 and NeoGeo systems.
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2018, 11:29:43 am »
I mean, it's non-monetary, and hey, you could use some fresh blood and younger people interested in helping out with the project. 

Some of us would take the situation as an opportunity to get out there and say, "hey, guess what? There's cool things under the hood and you can learn more here!"  And others send anonymous e-mails to retailers trying to get them pulled from the shelves. 

Because how dare someone not respect a software license.  Which is the ultimate irony in this situation.

 :cheers:

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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2018, 12:39:36 am »
Haze cannot do anything as he is not considered an official MameDev, and when he does opens up on other message boards, there can be a fashion of typed exchanges that are not funny or pleasant. I know I'm a fine one to talk, but I am respectful.

Haze has an opinion, which I share, on how things are progressing with the project.  If he was coordinator again things on the team would be a lot different.  Haze is a code contributor extraordinaire, not an enforcer.  It is unfair to suggest such methods.  I do wish he had a donation link, to support him and his work. To hire him would cost an arm and a leg.  In reality we should all be grateful. :) 

I don't know where he gets his energy from.
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Re: Retro-paradise or retro-jumping the shark?
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2018, 08:10:29 pm »
Checked out the Microcenter near me to see what their retro-arcade scene was all about (and purchase a pi zero). They are selling everything you need to build your own machine. The T-molding was reasonably priced. The trackballs were ultimarc. The price of the kits seemed a bit on the high side, but it's pretty cool to actually see everything on the shelves.

They had amps, speakers, encoders, buttons, joysticks - not much variety (other than color) but everything needed.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:13:16 pm by leapinlew »