Pac-Man Legion

[Zebidee]

Ha ha, nope, your idea BadMouth, is the best solution in terms of switch type and design simplicity.  I completed the Arduino code for it and tested - all good.

My setback with this project is a mistake I've made with the CRT dimensions.  It fits into the cab (just!) but sits too high for the top panel with no possibility of modification to solve the problem.  To be honest I'm not that disappointed, a slightly smaller CRT will be better aesthetically and functionally.  Finding another CRT is my challenge and could take some time.  Other than that bobby is right, I've been real busy with full time study.

Depending on what CRT you find, RGB or component modding it may be your next challenge

[pbj]

Ond, you are my bro but this is ---smurfing--- hilarious.

Onwards and upwards.

 

[romshark]

Each cartridge or plate will be made from acrylic sheet and embedded with a small connection point.  Each connection point will be binary coded to four bits allowing a maximum of 16 combinations.

1. The four bits will be monitored by some simple Arduino code which translates to a variable value for each binary combo.

2. Arduino will transmit the variable value via tx-rx serial connection to a USB port on the system PC

3. A batch file (which runs on boot) on the PC will listen for the variable value and execute the appropriate game in Mame.  Once the game is running the batch file will tell Arduino to stop sending anything with an tx response back.

4. Arduino will get it's power directly from the switched PC PS, so long as the machine is plugged in, Arduino will remain running regardless of the PC.  It will monitor for a cartridge change and we go back to step 1.

The novelty factor was too high to resist and is way more fun than just a switch solution.  Although in the end, it behaves much like the switch solution does anyway.  RFID could be used as well, but I think in this instance my solution is more simple.
 

This is weird. I had an idea to do the same type of thing a year or so ago (even down to just using 4 bits). My usage case though was for switchable control panels. One panel for Street Fighter type, one for 4-way, one for Neo-Geo, maybe even one for trackball and one for just lightguns. The front-end would use the Arduino to identify the panel and display a list of games that panel works best with, switching in real time.

I didn’t go forward with this idea since my knowledge of programming isn’t up for making a front-end.

Anyway, if you’re still going this route on your setup, I see that system rebooting is seen as unwanted by some. May I suggest the Arduino keeps monitoring the cart pins while the game is running. Then, if the cart is removed and all the pins go to low [ 0 ] (or high [ 15 ] if you’re using pull-up resistors instead), the Arduino momentarily activates a relay. This relay is connected to your keyboard encoder to activate ESC and quits out of MAME. Then, the batch routine loops and waits for the next cart to be put in.

[Ond]

Depending on what CRT you find, RGB or component modding it may be your next challenge

If I find a decent CRT TV with component in, I'll use a VGA to component converter like yours just as before.  I note there's at least one guy here in Oz selling modded TVs but he's in NSW and the price is a bit high.  I'd be ok doing the mod you're talking about if I had to I think.

Ond, you are my bro but this is ---smurfing--- hilarious.

Onwards and upwards.

 

Yeah I know Jim, I knew you'd get a chuckle out of it.  Meh, I make mistakes all the time, most of em I don't tell anyone about.  At least I didn't bust the neck of it!.  I still have a useless (too big) tube to get rid of now. On the plus side the cabinetry work is mostly done and the machine would be nice and comfortable to play (from an ergonomics point of view).
I doubt I'll score a kerbside freeby like this again though    A slighty smaller CRT 22" - 26" would be really nice in it.

This is weird. I had an idea to do the same type of thing a year or so ago (even down to just using 4 bits). My usage case though was for switchable control panels. One panel for Street Fighter type, one for 4-way, one for Neo-Geo, maybe even one for trackball and one for just lightguns. The front-end would use the Arduino to identify the panel and display a list of games that panel works best with, switching in real time.

I didn’t go forward with this idea since my knowledge of programming isn’t up for making a front-end.

Anyway, if you’re still going this route on your setup, I see that system rebooting is seen as unwanted by some. May I suggest the Arduino keeps monitoring the cart pins while the game is running. Then, if the cart is removed and all the pins go to low [ 0 ] (or high [ 15 ] if you’re using pull-up resistors instead), the Arduino momentarily activates a relay. This relay is connected to your keyboard encoder to activate ESC and quits out of MAME. Then, the batch routine loops and waits for the next cart to be put in.

Ha hah, yeah I stole your idea! Not really.  That's a good idea to cover cart removal mid game.  I've used Arduino before for relay control and they work really well for the task.

[Zebidee]

If I find a decent CRT TV with component in, I'll use a VGA to component converter like yours just as before.  I note there's at least one guy here in Oz selling modded TVs but he's in NSW and the price is a bit high.  I'd be ok doing the mod you're talking about if I had to I think.

I'm pretty sure you'd be fine with it. The trickiest part is that every TV is a little different so a bit of research and thinking involved, but there are heaps of people doing it now and the information is out there. I even know a couple of people in Melbourne who could probably help you for the price of a few beers and a chat while having a look, lockdowns permitting.

[Ond]

The saga continues ...  .  So I found a nice nice working 24" Sony CRT TV.  This time I had to pay for it.  After some bargaining the price was ok for me.  Zebidee has been really helpful in advising me on mod approaches to use for the new unit  which I'm very grateful for.   I have to say regardless of how my efforts go, I'm having a lot of fun with the challenge!  My workshop is a mess with disassembled parts and tools all over the place.
If any particular mod approach is successful I'll cover it in detail in this thread.  If it doesn't work out I'll hush it up and we'll pretend it never happened 

I guess the reason I'm enjoying the process is because I'm gaining new knowledge.  I generally learn stuff quickly, with help from you guys, even more so.  I have my eye open for more CRT TVs working or not, freebies or paid for.  Not just for this build but for future use (and some insurance).

The Sony OSD RGB mod I've seen, makes a lot of sense (for other brands as well).  This Sony unit is not suitable for that mod but we'll see.

[bobbyb13]

Good to hear you have found a candidate (and happy you may be finding time to work on fun stuff even?!)

I have a pile of Sony TVs here which sadly can't benefit from the brilliance of a GeenAntz so I am curious to see how you do also.

[Zebidee]

If any particular mod approach is successful I'll cover it in detail in this thread.  If it doesn't work out I'll hush it up and we'll pretend it never happened 

A very sensible approach! I won't say a thing 

Most CRT TVs can be modded in some way. Learning how is not that hard, and once you know a few tricks you start to look at most CRTs as potential arcade monitors. Understanding how CRTs work is hand-in-glove with understanding many principles of electronics, so it can be seen as an "applied" way to improve your knowledge.

Good to hear you have found a candidate (and happy you may be finding time to work on fun stuff even?!)

I have a pile of Sony TVs here which sadly can't benefit from the brilliance of a GeenAntz so I am curious to see how you do also.

Many Sony TVs are good candidates for RGB modding, and RGB is King. Even so, component modding is another option and sometimes easier when you consider TVs often convert lesser signals (eg AV/composite/svideo) into component for processing via their "jungle" chips into RGB for injection to the CRT cathode guns. This means that the jungle chips may already have direct inputs designed for component video, even if they are not used.

[bobbyb13]

I'm getting closer to understanding it all recently.

I'll just have to keep hoarding TVs until I'm a genius
 

[XSFDriver]

I'm getting closer to understanding it all recently.

I'm hearin' ya there man, I've been pouring over threads here for months (even though I haven't been on here for a while)...and I think I can see some light at the end of the tunnel.... Yep, it's a tiiiiny little pixel, waaay off in the distance. (Cool job on the 'ehukai project BTW Bobby)

Actually, OND, I wish I'd have read this last page earlier, about your CRT issue (I've been following it for a while up 'till then, love the pic's and the concept BTW, cool design)...every now and then I see CRT freebies on the footpath, did I read correctly?...are you in Melbourne? If so, I was thinkin' I might have been able to score you one,  but I am about an hours drive west of Melbourne, and I see you've already got one to fit anyway.

Anyway, can't wait to see the next batch of pic's mate.
Cheers 

[Ond]

I'm getting closer to understanding it all recently.

I'm hearin' ya there man, I've been pouring over threads here for months (even though I haven't been on here for a while)...and I think I can see some light at the end of the tunnel.... Yep, it's a tiiiiny little pixel, waaay off in the distance. (Cool job on the 'ehukai project BTW Bobby)

Actually, OND, I wish I'd have read this last page earlier, about your CRT issue (I've been following it for a while up 'till then, love the pic's and the concept BTW, cool design)...every now and then I see CRT freebies on the footpath, did I read correctly?...are you in Melbourne? If so, I was thinkin' I might have been able to score you one,  but I am about an hours drive west of Melbourne, and I see you've already got one to fit anyway.

Anyway, can't wait to see the next batch of pic's mate.
Cheers 

Thanks XSFDriver, sorry this reply is way late but I haven't hardly looked at the forum in last many weeks except to send a few messages.  Just too damn busy with study. That is about to change however...

With about 2 weeks to go to term break and Spring being here I'm getting ready to get back into this here hobby.

Forum seems real quiet....nevertheless even if there's only bobbyb13 and me standing amongst tumbleweeds this project (and others) will continue to be posted...intermittently   wuteva!

Updates,  despite Zebidee's help I just couldn't get the Sony CRT to work with any video mod. Fortunes twist and turn my friends.  A few days later I scored not one but two free CRTs .  Both with component video inputs.  Both were in peoples curbside trash.  The first is a 27" CRT TV which has a slightly smaller (fractions of an inch) footprint than my first 27".  It fits in the cab!  That's what I designed for and that's what I'm going to use - all being well.

The second TV well, can I share a short story on that?   My wife and I were driving the neighborhood when I spied a lovely looking candidate lying on its back on the curbside.  I shouted "stopppp!"  We pulled over and I greeted the guy standing near his hard rubbish pile.  I said "do you mind if I take that TV mate?" He said "be my guest, it worked perfectly, sadly its all wet from the rain now - probably no good".  I told him that was no problem at all since I would disassemble it clean and dry it.  At that he walked inside and came back out with the remote!     The unit happens to be a Panasonic widescreen 100Hz progressive scan CRT.  Here in Aussie these TVs still sell for ~$450 to willing CRT enthusiasts.  They are the last in line before the age of plasma's dawned. After some TLC it works perfectly and picture looks BEAUTIFUL.  I have plans for this, but that's for another day.  The guy also handed me an Xbox 360 ..."keeps re-booting, any good to you?"   "Sure" say's I.

Anyway picture of 27" tube crammed into cabinet:

It looks too big right?  But once the top plate is on it will be as per the design.

Zebidee hooked me up with his mate here in Melbourne for my GreenAntz which is now on it's way to me.

The guy even sent a video of the unit working with GroovyMame and a few select games - very crisp images indeed!  See ya's all soon.

 

[Zebidee]

Good news indeed, Ond!

Those 100hz CRTs... they have some issues with regard to retrogaming. They do produce some artifacting, colour bleeding and "dot-crawl". I've never had a Panasonic but, at least, that's what I get with my Loewe 100hz CRT TV, and it seems pretty consistent with others.

These issues are more noticable with 8-bit games, especially games with static solid areas of colour like Pac-Man and Mr. Do!. They look "OK", but there is a lot of noticeable colour bleed etc.

However, they are GREAT for fast scrolling games like shmups, like Flying Shark or Batsugun, Raiden games, Cave games. The 100hz capabilities allow these CRTs to easily keep up with weird refresh rates like 55hz, possibly by doubling the scan rates, and prevents these scrolling games from looking "flickery".

In short, my impression is that the 100hz CRTs want to "fill-in" the boring bits of old games like solid areas of colour (thus the issues above), but are great for video and fast-moving detailed action. So, maybe not so good for "Classic" era (roughly speaking, pre-1985 to 2000) games. If you want to put a 100hz into a cab, consider the games you want to play (I put my Loewe 100hz into a vertical cab and I love it for playing shmups).

[bobbyb13]

Difficult to quantify how much I have learned from always reading posts by you gents.

What is more entertaining is I keep learning that I haven't even reached the equivalent of my sophomore year in this hobby yet.

Ond, stoked you got a tube that suits the project so well.
Oh, these fortuitous events in life!

And quite the haul all way round I must say.

Grandaddy used to tell me "At times, I'd rather be lucky than good"

Even better when you're both!
Good on ya

Hope studies are going just as well.

[BeastlyBoy]

Outside the box thinking for cutting large clean curves.  I'm postioning aluminium strip in place onto the plan with some nails. Now you can see why I needed 1:1 scale plans:

Ancient history now but you can actually buy products that do this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TREND-CURV-8X500-CURVE-GUIDE/dp/B0722YKXQN

It's pretty expensive for what's essentially a strip of plastic but a handy thing to have.

[Zebidee]

I have some long, flexible metal rulers that I use all the time, one over 1 metre long, and I used it in a similar way to Ond last time I needed to cut a curve for a monitor bay. Used less and smaller nails, but same principle. Ironically, I was inspired to make the curve by one of Ond's earlier builds. I took photos of the process, but they got lost with the phone I took them with.

In my case I just applied the ruler directly to the plywood, between two fixed top and bottom points, to draw the curve. Then I cut it directly with a jigsaw, rather than making a paper template. I cut both left and right panels at same time to make sure they matched, and sanded down any inconsistencies with the curve on both pieces at the same time, to make sure they matched. There were no visible nail holes by the time it was done, and no metal rulers were harmed (they continue to be used).

[Martijn]

Outside the box thinking for cutting large clean curves.  I'm postioning aluminium strip in place onto the plan with some nails. Now you can see why I needed 1:1 scale plans:

Ancient history now but you can actually buy products that do this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TREND-CURV-8X500-CURVE-GUIDE/dp/B0722YKXQN

It's pretty expensive for what's essentially a strip of plastic but a handy thing to have.

Whoa, i wish i knew this sooner. i made my own like Ond did. And didnt turn out that even..

[BeastlyBoy]

Yeah I tried a few manual methods but couldn't sleep at night with a curve I was working on being ever so slightly off center if you look really really close (we've all been there!). Hence I wound up spending 30 quid on a plastic strip haha.

[wp34]

Outside the box thinking for cutting large clean curves.  I'm postioning aluminium strip in place onto the plan with some nails. Now you can see why I needed 1:1 scale plans:

Ancient history now but you can actually buy products that do this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TREND-CURV-8X500-CURVE-GUIDE/dp/B0722YKXQN

It's pretty expensive for what's essentially a strip of plastic but a handy thing to have.

Thanks for the tip!

[Ond]

Initial testing of GreenAntz VGA-Component transcoder:

I received the transcoder in a padded mail bag.  The board is small with closely placed components all hand soldered including some small SMD parts, quite impressive for being done by hand. I added some PCB feet to the board and hooked it up.

The PC rig for this build is on the bench connected to both LCD and CRT for setup and config.

GreenAntz unit connected to both VGA and Component cables

Initial CRT images are good.  Display is at (or close to) original game resolution. The CRT TV has an over-scan issue which I will need to correct in the service menu of the TV.

Close inspection shows a crisp image.  Just some minor adjustment needed.

[bobbyb13]

Excellent...
Nice to see you are getting some free time to work on that!

If you don't mind my prying...
What are your software and gpu choice here?

Inquiring minds with recently aquired legit internet speeds want to know...

 

[Ond]

Excellent...
Nice to see you are getting some free time to work on that!

If you don't mind my prying...
What are your software and gpu choice here?

Inquiring minds with recently aquired legit internet speeds want to know...

 

No worries bobby, this system is running on a Core 2 Duo CPU, Windows 7 OS, Radeon HD 6670 GPU With GroovyMAME and CRT Emudriver (recent versions).  The older hardware is just fine for this build.  I'm also only using a 250Gb Samsung SSD drive.  The hardware is all just stuff from older PCs no longer in use by my family.

I spent much of the day hunting for a universal Logitech remote I thought I had (but seems I don't) that I wanted to use to access the service menu on the CRT TV. I ordered a suitable remote on eBay, it should be here in a few days. I just want to improve some geometry settings for the display and fix the over-scan issue it has. 

[bobbyb13]

Thanks Ond.

I imagjned such but nice to get confirmation.

I struggle with CRT emudriver install and tuning myself and want to experiment with front ends finally and wonder about order of business.

Hope your remote arrives soon so you can keep at it.

[XSFDriver]

That's comin' along nicely man... looks like you're nailin' it

[Ond]

That's comin' along nicely man... looks like you're nailin' it

Thanks mate!  It's kinda dumb on my part posting renders like that and then trying to live up to them.  They are a good visual reference though to keep me on track.   

[XSFDriver]

That's comin' along nicely man... looks like you're nailin' it

Thanks mate!  It's kinda dumb on my part posting renders like that and then trying to live up to them.  They are a good visual reference though to keep me on track.   

I dunno mate, I mean, I'm not blowin' sunshine on ya, but I reckon you couldn't be more spot on....

...that's why I couldn't resist puttin' up your two pic's together like that....

...besides, I know myself, (and probably a lot of others on here could relate...), It's a bit of a curse when these ideas pop into your head in a second, and then you've got this urge to actually create them.

That's what I love about this site.... sooooo many ideas and cool creations, I think that's why I seem to be reading more on here than what I post... two "four letter words" come to mind... "Time" and "life"  (such as yourself with studies you mentioned)

Anyway, can't wait to see the next batch of pic's, when you've got time, of course.
Cheers 

[Ond]

I spent the last few days getting the game switching rig working with my CRT.  I don't want any visible signs of an operating system and everything has to synchronize nicely for a clean power up and game select. This means tweaking the Arduino code and the Operating system, testing and repeating. Until the cabinet is ready to properly seat the CRT with all its boards and the PC etc. I'll make use of the TV case to test the CRT for now. A bit of disassembly and reassembly required if I want to work on components tucked in under the tube.  I'm getting quicker at the pull-down every time!

Soldering some control cable to the button board - to allow the Arduino to switch AV modes after boot-up.

Solder a relay in across the main switch - allowing the CRT to turn on when the PC boots.

Refitted into the TV case before refitting the main board:

The various boards that make up the switching assembly so far (this will probably grow!):

Next up, completing the proof of concept using Pacs and reed switches.

[javeryh]

I spent the last few days getting the game switching rig working with my CRT.  I don't want any visible signs of an operating system and everything has to synchronize nicely for a clean power up and game select. This means tweaking the Arduino code and the Operating system, testing and repeating. Until the cabinet is ready to properly seat the CRT with all its boards and the PC etc. I'll make use of the TV case to test the CRT for now. A bit of disassembly and reassembly required if I want to work on components tucked in under the tube.  I'm getting quicker at the pull-down every time!

Soldering some control cable to the button board - to allow the Arduino to switch AV modes after boot-up.

Solder a relay in across the main switch - allowing the CRT to turn on when the PC boots.

Refitted into the TV case before refitting the main board:

The various boards that make up the switching assembly so far (this will probably grow!):

A quick n dirty video to show the switching working.....yay! 

Next up, completing the proof of concept using Pacs and reed switches.

This is so clever.  If I am understanding this correctly, you are going to have 5 switches inside of the cabinet and depending on how they are set a different game will boot with no ability to change games unless you reconfigure those switches?  So on/on/on/on/on might boot Pac-Man but on/on/on/on/off might boot Ms. Pac-Man?

What is the main thing driving this?  A traditional PC or a single board computer?  This is really original.

[Ond]

Thanks javeryh, you are correct about the binary combos determining which game to play.  The testing with mechanical switches is just the first part.  The next part is testing with reed switches and magnets i.e. no physical switching by hand just proximity activation.  The reed switches I'm using are tiny hair like things.  I'm going to mock up three initial Pacs to satisfy myself that the idea works as I'd imagined (and discussed a few pages back).

It's just an old PC sitting behind this - the kind folks throw away these days.  I'd briefly tested my Arduino code with regular mame on a laptop some time back, but this test was all about getting it to work properly with Groovymame and a CRT.

[javeryh]

I remember people discussing different "keys" for the front of the machine that will determine the game once placed in the slot.  I am really looking forward to seeing how this plays out.  It's a super cool idea and I'm a huge fan of completely hiding the fact that there is a computer inside running the show.  This way, there are no settings for anyone to ever mess up. 

I wish I had your computer/electronics knowledge - my brain is buzzing!   

[Zebidee]

Wow, impressive work Ond 

... And yet, this is just your prototype! Will look even better after you sort your reed switches out.

Reed switch contact wires are often made of specially plated gold or copper (for flexibility+conductivity), probably why they're so thin!

[Ond]

Thanks Zebidee, I got quite excited when this actually worked after several hours of messing about with it.

There will be 16 15 of these sitting in a little display stand to choose a game from.

Magnets are embedded in the PAC to trigger reed switches in the mount panel. There is also a small metal plate embedded in each PAC which sticks to an embedded rare earth magnet in the mount plate. The PAC will attach in place around a small wedge shape which fits the 'mouth' of the PAC. The power button powers everything up or down.

To switch to another game at any time, just change one PAC for another.  No menu, no exit button.  That's the theory anyway 

[wp34]

This is so cool.   

[SpaceHedgehog]

Damn, talk about innovative! Awesome solution 

[emphatic]

 

[javeryh]

This is going to be so cool.  16 dedicated cabinets in one.  The dream!  Do we have a game list yet?

1.  Pac-Man
2.  Ms. Pac-Man
3.  Frogger
4.  Donkey Kong
5.  Burger Time
6.  Dig Dug
7.  Eyes
8.  Galaga
9.  Lady Bug
10. Mr. Do!
11. Nibbler
12. Pengo
13. Space Invaders
14. Jr. Pac-Man
15. Pac & Pal
16. Donkey Kong Jr.

DKII not here... hmmm... what would you change?

[Ond]

Pictures are a lot easier than words ...sometimes.  That  list is pretty close javeryh, I'll post my actual one soon.  Glad you like the concept guys...work is in progress.  Insomnia is keeping me up lately, this is the result...

More soon...

[Ond]

Ok, this was kind of important, getting the perfect list (for me) of 15 games for this machine.  I originally mentioned 16 games but I need the '0000' number for control purposes, so 15 it is.  Here is my list, quite similar to javeryh's suggestion with a few notable differences.  I'm not a fan of Pac & Pal, it wasn't a particularly good variation of Pac-Man, so I'm leaving it out to fit in another game. I'd like a few vertical shooters so I'm putting in 4 favs into the list also.

1.  Pac-Man
2.  Pac-Man Plus
3.  Ms. Pac-Man
4.  Jr. Pac-Man
5.  Pac-Mania
6.  Frogger
7.  Donkey Kong
8.  Galaga
9.  Burger Time
10. Dig Dug
11. Nibbler
12. Flying Shark
13. Aero Fighters
14. 19XX The War Against Destiny
15. 1943 The Battle of Midway

If anyone feels strongly that something should replace anything (and why) I'm happy to hear suggestions  otherwise this is it.

[Malenko]

The hardest thing in the world to do is change someone's mind on a game list but here goes......

For me, that's a bit too much pac. I don't know what Jr Pacman brings to the table that the rest don't. Wider mazes and no warps.....I'd rather play Ms.Pac. Maybe replace with a puzzle game like Tetris or Klax (or Puzzle Fighter?)

Pac-Mania, Frogger, DK, Galaga, Dig Dug, and especially Burgertime are all wins and should definitely be on the list
I like Ladybug a little more than Nibbler, I think the gates are a pretty neat variation but I see the appeal of Nibbler as well.
I'd  take 19XX over 1943 , then you have a slot for Mappy, Kangaroo, or DK Jr.

My suggestions are based on having a bigger variety of games, but I also get that the cab is called Pac-Man Legion

[javeryh]

OK here's my $0.02...

Flying Shark, Aero Fighters, 19XX and 1943 are all 8-way games and you are building a very focused 4-way cabinet.  It's hard to include shmups because most are 8-ways.  Maybe you are planning on a ServoStik (which is excellent) but a legit 4-way might add to the authenticity in this case.

I also like Lady Bug, Mr. Do! and Eyes a lot and would not omit those.  I'm not a huge fan of Pac-Man Plus (I'm not even sure how it is different from Pac-Man) but this is a Pac-Man cabinet so I get it.  I've also never really played Pac-Mania... maybe I should since you and Malenko think highly of it.  Hmmm...

 

[Gilrock]

Yeah I like 1942 but with a 4-way joystick I had trouble playing it.  I'm sure 19XX and 1943 are similar.  I'd probably want Ghouls and Ghosts.