Pac-Man Legion

[Ond]

With an arduino, would’t you just base the input to trigger only when the selection switch is changed?

Yep, the switch input is to the Arduino not the OS.  Output of the Arduino can be used by the OS/system in a number of ways, none of which would impact running applications.  Jim would be correct if there was some constant key press but it doesn't work that way.  We'll look at this in detail soon.  I love the great ideas you guys have been suggesting but right now I'm woodworking 

[PL1]

Here's something to consider after you take care of the woodworking, Ond.   

With an arduino, would’t you just base the input to trigger only when the selection switch is changed?

Yes, you only want the Arduino to send a keystroke to the PC for a short period when there's a change detected.
- That keystroke should trigger a script or .bat file on the PC that closes the current game and launches the new game.

Another good feature to add in the Arduino code is to only send the keystroke after the new setting has been stable for several seconds.
- That way if you're switching from game 1 to game 4, you don't end up launching and closing games 2 and 3 in rapid succession.   

I'll leave the down-in-the-weeds coding details to someone who, unlike me, actually has the talent to make this work.      


Scott

[bobbyb13]

Even though it makes my head hurt sometimes (and I often have to read these posts half a dozen times before I START to get it) I do like reading threads that have this particular assortment of people chiming in on them.

This is one of those threads.

[Ond]

Is that PVA glue?

What veneer/stain are you going to use? Or were you thinking to give it another light sand and go tung oil?

It's Rust-Oleum general purpose  clear coat, one end is already stained with Mahogany stain.  If you check page 2 (near the bottom) of this thread you'll see where I constructed and stained the first end-panel.

Even though it makes my head hurt sometimes (and I often have to read these posts half a dozen times before I START to get it) I do like reading threads that have this particular assortment of people chiming in on them.

This is one of those threads.

Brainstorming ideas and creative collaboration is one of the best things about the forum IMO 

So I now have a number of interesting options for the game selection/boot up mechanism.  The Stream Deck controller WP34 suggested is cool but not what I had in mind for this project. I'll keep it in mind for something else though.  javeryh's  RFID solution could have a lot of novelty factor, I'm going to give it some thought.  Vigo's idea for a switch with labels is great. Thanks PL1 for the Rotary switch details, using a single switch for both input selection and LEDs had not occurred to me.  I'm going to concept up something over the next few days and post it here.

I'm showing the work I did on the second end panel even though I sort of detailed this on page 2 for the first one I did.. Half decent veneering that doesn't look like ass takes patience and a few hours works.  So here it is:

[Zebidee]

Awesome 

[Ond]

I have the 'menu' solution.  It is a combination of ideas really, but I will credit javeryh with the inspiration.  Heh, I'm already due to help him with his Pi-4 setup but I will add some artwork effort to that as he likes.  Thank you javeryh!

First the high level concept for easy reading (and then the more detailed low-level for anyone interested).

High Level - Concept:
The side panel without the coin door will have module for fitting a 'cartridge'.  I can't think of any other name for it at the moment but the cartridge will be about CD case size.  To start with just six.  Each one will feature artwork of the game to load much like a console cartridge.  They will not slot in to the module but lock in flat against the panel so you can see the artwork at all times. Press a button and the machine boots into that game.  To change the game, you must change the cartridge and reboot.

Low-Level - Concept:
Each cartridge or plate will be made from acrylic sheet and embedded with a small connection point.  Each connection point will be binary coded to four bits allowing a maximum of 16 combinations.

1. The four bits will be monitored by some simple Arduino code which translates to a variable value for each binary combo.

2. Arduino will transmit the variable value via tx-rx serial connection to a USB port on the system PC

3. A batch file (which runs on boot) on the PC will listen for the variable value and execute the appropriate game in Mame.  Once the game is running the batch file will tell Arduino to stop sending anything with an tx response back.

4. Arduino will get it's power directly from the switched PC PS, so long as the machine is plugged in, Arduino will remain running regardless of the PC.  It will monitor for a cartridge change and we go back to step 1.

The novelty factor was too high to resist and is way more fun than just a switch solution.  Although in the end, it behaves much like the switch solution does anyway.  RFID could be used as well, but I think in this instance my solution is more simple.

More updates soon, plenty to do in the workshop today. 

[pbj]

That sounds incredibly stupid, Ond.  You’ve lost me on that one.

[Ond]

  Do you mean the way it works, or just the whole idea in general.  I'm listening.

[pbj]

Eh.... I could come around if you get rid of the reboot part.

[Ond]

ok, that's fair.  I thought you were objecting because I'm crossing some console/arcade boundary or something.  The reason I wanted to reboot on every game selection is that I didn't want this particular machine to be easy to hop from game to game.  I wanted it to be more like a single game machine but which you could change games on a restart.  That was always the case. I'm deliberately limiting the amount of games this thing can play as well.  Playing a multitude of games is more for my other arcade projects.

I have thought about changing without a reboot though and moving away from my original requirement.  Try not to think about the use of a card/key as per a console cartridge, it's making use of the blank space on the panel for something that might look cool and be functional as well.

Nothing is set in stone though, yet.

[Zebidee]

"Cool and functional", I like that.

There's always a dynamic marquee idea - you can display art from the selected game on a mini-screen in the panel  (say from an old smartphone, like what you did for the media box) before performing a soft reboot.

I feel that your keycard idea, while cool, is unnecessarily complicated. It takes away from a principles of simplicity yet elegance, form fitting function that I see in most of your work.

[Ond]

The idea probably sounds complicated from my low level concept description (it's not).  If it worked it would certainly be very easy to use, easier than browsing  a menu with joystick and buttons for instance.  One thing I definitely don't want is any sort of screen based menu system.  If I go down that path I might as well just use an FE and be done with it.  Not happening.

Here's what I'll do, first, just a concept render, so you can at least see what it would look like and then later on, a proof of concept in hardware.  If the idea is not both cool looking AND functional, I promise to drop it all together and move to another solution.  Howzzat?   

[PL1]

I could come around if you get rid of the reboot part.

Agreed on not rebooting -- the delay created by physically swapping carts should be long enough to discourage people from idly flipping through games.

Each cartridge or plate will be made from acrylic sheet and embedded with a small connection point.  Each connection point will be binary coded to four bits allowing a maximum of 16 combinations.

This sounds like it could be a weak spot, depending on your plan.   

While we're waiting for your concept render, here are three approaches that sprang to mind listed in ascending order:

5 position (ground + 4 bits) edge connector and custom printed PCBs
- Great contact
- Probably needs a bit more force than you'd like to plug/unplug the cart

Pogo pins/spring loaded contacts on cab and slotted metal plate on bottom/back of cart
- Metal plate has 5 tabs (ground + 4 bits), cut off tab(s) that you don't want to make contact
- Hardly any force needed to plug/unplug

4 short roller-arm lever microswitches mounted vertically (roller down) on the cab with just the roller exposed
- No slot in the back of the cart = switch pressed
- Slot in the back of the cart = switch not pressed
- Lip on bottom-front edge of frame to hold bottom of cart against switches
- Taller lip on top edge to hold top of cart so it doesn't topple forward
- Spring loaded plate behind top lip to gently press the cart down when you're not loading/unloading the cart (might not be needed)
- Finger hole in bottom lip so you can press up and pivot the bottom of the cart back/forward to load/unload the cart




Scott

[Vigo]

The rebooting threw me off a little too, but mostly because I try to run how I would do this task, in my mind, and programming a hotkey script to shutdown and reboot with a new game seems much more complex/prone to cause issues than a script to quit out of current game and start a new game (and change the default bootup game). I trust your ability, not so much mine. 

I just bought myself a pachislo machine, so an idea on top of my mind is there is a key switch required to be turned to change the odds on the machine. Forcing a key for swapping could be one possible discouragement from rebooting.

Also, regarding the cartridges. I both love and hate it. I love the feeling of a cartridge, even if the game isn't truly present on it, I am a little bit iffy on the loose parts and relying on various connectors playing ball. That said, after reading about PL1's suggestion of roller switches, I am reminded of a board game I had as a kid. It was called "Shrieks and Creaks".



What it had was a little speaker called the talking tombstone, and you plugged it into your tape player, and just played a tape the entire time you are playing the board game. The tombstone was mostly just a speaker, but without any cards inserted, it would just cut the audio. Anyway, Each player had a player card that they would routinely need to insert into the tombstone along with another key card. When the cards were inserted, it depressed different combinations of switches, that worked just like dip switch settings, if the right combination of switches were depressed at the same time, it would connect the audio feed and you would hear the instruction of where to go on the board. If the combination was not triggered, you would get dead silence, and are just able to finish your turn.



Anyway, my thought is that you could avoid doing anything with embedding connectors if you simply had different patterns cut into the sheet of acrylic. Depending on the combination of switches depressed from inserting the card, it would be recognized as a different game. Combine that with a key to lock it in place, if you want.

[Zebidee]

Seeing as we are back to cards again, I had a thought - how about optically-based switches? The light sensor can tell which card is inserted by the tabs present because they interrupt reflection back to sensor. No moving parts required! Easy to insert/remove, low failure rate once you get it setup properly.

[bobbyb13]

Dropping a game specific coin (type) item into a slot which happens to have an rfid in it to launch said specific game would be very cool I think.

I am in no way smart enough to implement my brilliant idea.

[PL1]

Seeing as we are back to cards again, I had a thought - how about optically-based switches?

Seems like the reflective ones wouldn't work well for this application, so that leaves the beam break ones.

I recommend Adafruit 2167 3mm beam break sensors.
- Active low device -- when you break the beam, the white wire drops to logic low.
- They work with 5v (PC) or 3.3v. (RasPi GPIO)

I can easily remix the 3D printable mount available here on Thingiverse.
- That mount was designed for skee-ball machines.


If you set them up so the beam is going straight thru the cart, you'll need a front lip with at least 15mm depth -- the U-channel in the pic above is 1/2" (12.7mm) wide.

If you put the IR LED behind the cart and use a 45 degree reflector in the front lip to redirect the beam to an upward-facing sensor, you can greatly reduce the depth of the front lip.

The other way to use the beam break sensors is to do a variation on the roller arm switch setup described earlier.
- Use the flats (and slots) on the back of the cart to push (or to not push) a lever arm that raises (or doesn't raise) a tab so it doesn't break (or does break) the IR beam.

Dropping a game specific coin (type) item into a slot which happens to have an rfid in it to launch said specific game would be very cool I think.

There are several RFID or Near-Field Communication (NFC) builds that could be helpful, especially JudgeRob's Web of Wonder build.
- Related thread with some useful MAME-related info here.

IIRC Howard was messing around with some (programmable?) Amiibo NFC cards or figures a while back, too.


Scott

[10yard]

The idea probably sounds complicated from my low level concept description (it's not).  If it worked it would certainly be very easy to use, easier than browsing  a menu with joystick and buttons for instance.  One thing I definitely don't want is any sort of screen based menu system.  If I go down that path I might as well just use an FE and be done with it.  Not happening.

Here's what I'll do, first, just a concept render, so you can at least see what it would look like and then later on, a proof of concept in hardware.  If the idea is not both cool looking AND functional, I promise to drop it all together and move to another solution.  Howzzat?   

How about repurposing a credit/smart card reader?  You can get these fairly cheaply and in various shapes and sizes such as the one in the image below. 


Link to Amazon - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Credit-Reader-Military-Compatible-Windows/dp/B091C7YRPT
Link to product info - https://www.rocketek.hk/portfolio-item/rocketek-new-arrival-iso7816-emv-id-ic-smart-card-reader/

I think it could work be made to work as a cartridge slot.   Your cartridges would be old credit cards  .  You can make the cars look pretty by smoothing the faces down and applying game specific artwork stickers.
There are PC/SC command line programs that will provide you with a unique ID from an inserted card.  That ID could then be used in a script to determine what action to take,  what game to launch.

[Malenko]

I hate to be the voice of reason by why not just a single button inside the coin door that makes the machine go to the next game in the list? Optionally another button to go back a game.


All that up there^  seems like an overengineering nightmare.

[wp34]

Anyway, my thought is that you could avoid doing anything with embedding connectors if you simply had different patterns cut into the sheet of acrylic. Depending on the combination of switches depressed from inserting the card, it would be recognized as a different game. Combine that with a key to lock it in place, if you want.

I like this idea.  With my cocktail cabinet I usually have a drink(s) and so I keep coasters on the glass.  It would be cool if you could design coasters to match your cabinet and also be used to change games.  Vigo's idea would eliminate any connectors that wouldn't react well to beverages.

[Jimbo]

Ond... I just want to say I love the cartridge idea!  Reminds me of the Vectrex!

Regardless how it's done technically, I would think the most important thing should be that it should be instant (or as near as) for the games to switch.   If you have to accomplish that by rebooting or whatever, just please please please make it really quick.  I think it'll ruin the effect if you have to wait for a PC to boot.  It has to feel like you are changing a cartridge, powering off/on or resetting, then the game is there, ready to play instantly.  That's what cartridges did.

I'd also say don't limit it to 4 or 5 games, if you're allowing cartridges, you might want to add a lot more in the future, so I'd design it around that.   

[pbj]

Just put a 60 in 1 in there and be done with it.

[javeryh]

All that up there^  seems like an overengineering nightmare.

Reason has no place in here!  I want to see Ond do something crazy just because he can.   

I like the idea - my only hesitation would be doing this on the side panel without the coin door instead of below the coin door itself.  Not only would all the action be on that one panel, the entire machine will be able to sit against a wall in a game room.  If there is stuff on all 4 sides, it will have to "float" in a room, which could be awkward.

But I love the creativity people are throwing out here.

[circusfreak]

I'd like to add my 0.02. For retro coolness, perhaps implement "The Clapper"? Done with Pac Man...CLAP CLAP.

[Zebidee]

Just put Siri or Alexa or whatever in there... "Legion: play Pacman"

[Hoopz]

Anyway, my thought is that you could avoid doing anything with embedding connectors if you simply had different patterns cut into the sheet of acrylic. Depending on the combination of switches depressed from inserting the card, it would be recognized as a different game. Combine that with a key to lock it in place, if you want.

I like this idea.  With my cocktail cabinet I usually have a drink(s) and so I keep coasters on the glass.  It would be cool if you could design coasters to match your cabinet and also be used to change games.  Vigo's idea would eliminate any connectors that wouldn't react well to beverages.

Coasters with RFID chips or whatever that change the game based on placement would be cool.

[Ond]

[nitrogen_widget]

Install win 7 on multiple USB thumbdrives.
Each one configured to boot up to a specific game.

[Ond]

I hate to be the voice of reason by why not just a single button inside the coin door that makes the machine go to the next game in the list? Optionally another button to go back a game.


All that up there^  seems like an overengineering nightmare.

Too much cycling through games to get to the one you want.  I'm happy to implement my actual proposed design.  I've done similar linked control with Arduino before.

Ond... I just want to say I love the cartridge idea!  Reminds me of the Vectrex!

Regardless how it's done technically, I would think the most important thing should be that it should be instant (or as near as) for the games to switch.   If you have to accomplish that by rebooting or whatever, just please please please make it really quick.  I think it'll ruin the effect if you have to wait for a PC to boot.  It has to feel like you are changing a cartridge, powering off/on or resetting, then the game is there, ready to play instantly.  That's what cartridges did.

I'd also say don't limit it to 4 or 5 games, if you're allowing cartridges, you might want to add a lot more in the future, so I'd design it around that.   

Why does it need to be instant Jimbo?   My priority for player control over game selection is very low for this machine.

Install win 7 on multiple USB thumbdrives.
Each one configured to boot up to a specific game.

Functional, but not very cool.

[Malenko]

Too much cycling through games to get to the one you want.

16 game matrix means you are at most 8 games away with a 2 button config Its a neat idea and I know you can pull it off and in style.

Are you going to add non-mame games like Pacman 256 or either pacman championship edition?

[Vigo]

My biggest concern would be hitting that sweet spot with magnetism and easy to grip and remove, without wiggling too much. Also, storage of the “disks” would need to be part of it. Having them lined up in a row would make a nice art piece on a wall above the machine.

[PL1]

I like the idea of magnets and switches.   

The two possible issues that I see based on the current render are:

  1. How do you grip the Pac-Man figure to remove it?  A finger hole in the eye?  An eject lever with a ghost on it?

  2. The mostly-round shape of Pac-Man makes it a bit hard to align unless you make first contact with the points of the mouth.
- Maybe a rounded square or rounded rectangle with a mouth notch for the start button and the game name or mini-marquee above/behind the Pac-Man figure?
- That would allow you to make first contact with a flat edge then tilt the plate into position -- much easier to align than a mostly-round shape.
- If you're storing them upright in a bin so you can flip through them like albums at a record store, a flat bottom keeps the title at the top.


Scott

[Ond]

I appreciate the feedback and critical thinking on the concept guys, it's a great way to fine tune and improve it.  You can see that It's less of a console cartridge approach and more of dual-purposing an artwork feature.  The decorative Pac-Man motiff could very well just be a static adornment on that panel with no practical function other than bling. Each 'Pac' would be labelled on the back with the game name.  Originally I thought off adding per game artwork decals to the front of each but I think that idea sucks now 

Are you going to add non-mame games like Pacman 256 or either pacman championship edition?

If these games would work well i.e. not look out of place, they would be great to include!

My biggest concern would be hitting that sweet spot with magnetism and easy to grip and remove, without wiggling too much. Also, storage of the “disks” would need to be part of it. Having them lined up in a row would make a nice art piece on a wall above the machine.

Its a mechanical/physics challenge!  I'm sure I'll be trying various combinations of geometry and components to get it right.  I find that lots of fun!  One thing I had in mind was to use micro switches that are more sensitive than Cherry switches.  I've used some in the past that require only a very light pressure to switch on.

I like the idea of magnets and switches.     We think alike eh? 

The two possible issues that I see based on the current render are:

  1. How do you grip the Pac-Man figure to remove it?  A finger hole in the eye?  An eject lever with a ghost on it? Maybe the render doesn't show it well but there is a chamferd edge around each 'Pac'. Finger tips should fit nicely behind that to remove it.

  2. The mostly-round shape of Pac-Man makes it a bit hard to align unless you make first contact with the points of the mouth. I'm fairly confident that the beveled edge around the cutout will help locate and align the shape. We'll see.
- Maybe a rounded square or rounded rectangle with a mouth notch for the start button and the game name or mini-marquee above/behind the Pac-Man figure?
- That would allow you to make first contact with a flat edge then tilt the plate into position -- much easier to align than a mostly-round shape.
- If you're storing them upright in a bin so you can flip through them like albums at a record store, a flat bottom keeps the title at the top.  I have in mind a nice custom made display case which could hold all 16 Pacs.  It could sit on a shelf. Each Pac module can rest on a triangular shape fitting the 'mouth' of each module.


Scott

Should the Pacs double as coasters? Hmm not sure  I feel they would get scratched up?  They could be re-designed so that the metal disc was larger and was covered in cloth or flock (and still work magnetically).

I have assignments due for my studies so I will be taking a few days off from the workshop.  In the meantime maybe some of you could give some thought to the "ultimate 16 games" to feature on Pac-Man Legion.  Pac-Man variations of course, and must include Frogger (my wife's request).  Other than that, what to include?  I'm reluctant to add any more buttons unless I really can't find games that suit.

When we get to proof of concept, I will do some videos of using the Pac system prototype.  In the end it either works well and looks right or it won't be used at all.   

P.S. If you hate the look of the Pac, the start button etc it can be improved.  Rear lit acrylic, bigger, smaller, colors..whatever.  I still want to stay roughly within the scope of the concept though.

[PL1]

  1. How do you grip the Pac-Man figure to remove it?  A finger hole in the eye?  An eject lever with a ghost on it? Maybe the render doesn't show it well but there is a chamferd edge around each 'Pac'. Finger tips should fit nicely behind that to remove it.

The render does show a small chamfer on the back of the Pac, but when the Pac fits into the Pac-shaped recess, it looks like that chamfer will be covered.

Option 1:
Small chamfer on the shallow recess, taller chamfer on the back of the Pac.  (Pac thickness - recess depth = enough room to get fingers under the tall chamfer.)
- Might be difficult to match the diameters.

Option 2:
Maybe use some type of "finger grip" router bit on the outer perimiter of the Pac above the recess then a small chamfer on the part of the base that fits into the recess?
- Might make the Pac profile look odd.   

   

To use those bits on the outer perimeter of the Pac, you may need to make a center pivot point jig (recommended) or a "pipe jig" like the one mentioned here in LT's Mario Pedestal build.




Scott

[Jimbo]

Ond... I just want to say I love the cartridge idea!  Reminds me of the Vectrex!

Regardless how it's done technically, I would think the most important thing should be that it should be instant (or as near as) for the games to switch.   If you have to accomplish that by rebooting or whatever, just please please please make it really quick.  I think it'll ruin the effect if you have to wait for a PC to boot.  It has to feel like you are changing a cartridge, powering off/on or resetting, then the game is there, ready to play instantly.  That's what cartridges did.

I'd also say don't limit it to 4 or 5 games, if you're allowing cartridges, you might want to add a lot more in the future, so I'd design it around that.   

Why does it need to be instant Jimbo?   My priority for player control over game selection is very low for this machine.

Just seems you're putting a load of effort in for a really cool effect, and to me a slow boot up might take you out of the 'cool-factor moment' and the experience of 'swapping a cartridge'.

Surely there must be a way to switch games without resorting to rebooting?  If you can send a signal to a PC to reboot, can't you send a signal to a script that kills a process and starts another?

Saying all that, whatever way you do it I have no doubt will be cool as hell anyway!

[BadMouth]

Reed switches and magnets

[Ond]

.

[BadMouth]

« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 03:55:44 am by Ond »

Since there hadn't been any updates I was worried that my idea sent you into the feature creep abyss.
Now I'm even more worried.

[bobbyb13]

I suspect the man is busy.

Was hoping to cross-ocean collaborate on something and I have been so busy myself that all I can do is check in here and pozt inane replies to stuff-
 

[Ond]

Ha ha, nope, your idea BadMouth, is the best solution in terms of switch type and design simplicity.  I completed the Arduino code for it and tested - all good.

My setback with this project is a mistake I've made with the CRT dimensions.  It fits into the cab (just!) but sits too high for the top panel with no possibility of modification to solve the problem.  To be honest I'm not that disappointed, a slightly smaller CRT will be better aesthetically and functionally.  Finding another CRT is my challenge and could take some time.  Other than that bobby is right, I've been real busy with full time study.