value of an arcade monitor

[Zebidee]

This is not accurate. The idea that, on a good tv, you can adjust the image size once and then never need to again for arcade games in nonsense. It has nothing to do with the quality of the tv and everything to do with varying resolutions.

It's just a fact that if you make the screen size perfect for a 224 line game like SF2, the image will get cut off at the top and bottom on 254 line games like Mortal Kombat.

Both my arcade monitors handle any vertical refresh rate from 47hz to 70hz. More importantly, crt arcade monitors almost always have v hold and H hold pots so, if the image starts rolling, you can stabilize it.

Even if a Sony Trinitron tv allowed v hold and h hold adjustments in the service menu, it would be hard / impossible to use the OSD with a rolling image...

A Sony PVM or other pro monitors are a different story as they usually have more conveniently located image size adjustments. I have an Ikegami TM20-90rh which I like very much for vintage gaming.

Zebra, you misunderstand me. Thus, I need to make another long post to explain.

I've said it just above, and will repeat it here: "Arcade monitor are simpler to use, often more flexible [ie adjustable], but TVs often (not always) give a superior image."

After setting them up, I don't even try to adjust the image size on my TVs-cum-arcade monitors because of...... COMPROMISE!

Once I've adjusted the TV image size/location in the setup phases, I rarely change it again. Part of the reason is I've compromised and I'm happy with what I get for a very large range of resolutions/games. The TV mostly just fills the screen-space with the mode you have. Occasionally, if I have a game that runs off the screen too much, I might just run it in a slightly larger mode to give it the room to spread out. There are a lot of other things you can tweak in MAME/GROOVYMAME to help here too.

Compromise means that when I run Galaga in 288 vertical lines on a horizontal screen, I loose 2-4 lines top/bottom from overscan. Then change games, and Mortal Kombat also fits similarly, without adjustment. If I overscan a few lines in MK and yet get some black lines top/bottom in SF2 then that's OK too. In fact, it looks bloody great, and with good bezels (black background around screen) nobody can tell the difference unless specifically looking for it (and those people are nitpickers you can safely ignore). Compromise means that I never need to adjust it again.

Yes it would be nice to have easy control over the H/V sizes via pots, would make eliminating that overscan a breeze.  Arcade monitors definitely have an advantage in that regard, though not all are as flexible as you might think. For example, horz width adjustment on arcade monitors is usually limited to maybe 2cm total, or just not present at all. Furthermore, the horz width coil adjustment pot on many (cheaper) arcade monitors often simply doesn't work.

Yes, you can tweak pots for every new game if you have an arcade monitor. However I also follow the principle that once you have your arcade machine fired up and are swapping between games, you shouldn't have to go making pot adjustments because that ruins the "flow", the "vibe", breaks the fourth wall or something like that. So set it to your compromise and leave it there. Also, pots deteriorate quickly with excess use and they will wear out a whole lot faster than your joysticks/buttons. Basically, I don't like constantly fiddling with pots during game-time.

Some people extend their pots so that they can adjust them from a cab's control panel. This usually involves adding a completely new pot and leaves the old one on the board, and is preferable to sneaking around the back of your arcade monitor every time you want to change games. If you have the skill to do this, you also have the skill to change pots when they wear out.

Compromise (without pots) might mean that I have to accept some black borders on certain games, or a few lines cut-off. I'm happy with that. I'm not one of those people that will throw a fit because they can see some black lines, or can't see the very top 2 pixels of the "HIGH SCORE" letters.

Now, you might think with all this "compromise" that I'm lax about quality. In fact, the opposite is true. I am very fussy, and yet I am also realistic. I'm more fussy about game "experience", and I feel that constantly opening things up and adjusting monitor pots ruins that experience, for me and for others, so it is something I'd prefer to avoid.

I also believe that monitors/cabs should be setup for certain kinds of games. Rather than trying to satisfy every possible game, I prefer to have multiple cabs. At the very least, both horizontal & vertical cabs, although I know that not everyone can do this (===> COMPROMISE). Even so, unless I had like 20 cabs, I'd run MK and SF2 on the same cab, avoid adjusting pots, and just not worry about a little bit of black border.

Comparison pics for you, freshly taken from my cab without any tweaking, and I think they look great just as they are, including black lines that you really don't even notice. Learn to love the black. PC with ArcadeVGA. RGB via SCART. TV is an older 80's period Panasonic 29" (Sony is out for repairs).

[Osirus23]

Found a 32" Panasonic CRT. Should I pick it up?

[ark_ader]

Found a 32" Panasonic CRT. Should I pick it up?

Yes pick it up.

Get a friend as it is heavy.

Perfect for a showcase cab.

[Zebidee]

Find two and make an awesome dual-player driving game rig.

[Osirus23]

Found a 32" Panasonic CRT. Should I pick it up?

Yes pick it up.

Get a friend as it is heavy.

Perfect for a showcase cab.

Got it. Not bad for $13.

Composite input only. I wonder if I can do an RGB mod.

[Mr. Peabody]

@Zebidee: black is good. I'd rather a nice image, with the correct color, that doesn't fill the screen, than otherwise that did. The first image is niice. In the second I see no lines.

[paigeoliver]

There is something called a jungle chip or jungle mod you can do to a lot of crts to make them RGB.

Found a 32" Panasonic CRT. Should I pick it up?

Yes pick it up.

Get a friend as it is heavy.

Perfect for a showcase cab.

Got it. Not bad for $13.

Composite input only. I wonder if I can do an RGB mod.

[RandyT]

There is something called a jungle chip or jungle mod you can do to a lot of crts to make them RGB.

From what I can figure out, if the TV has an overlay for the menus, the inputs for these signals, which just happen to be raw RGB, are commandeered.  However, some TVs' internals have only a single color input, or a different form of data for the overlay, so it can be a bit of a crap shoot.  It takes some digging for service manuals and chip datasheets to flesh out if it's possible.

That monitor could probably look pretty nice, if it has the right guts for the mod.

[Zebidee]

Read about state-of-the-art RGB modding on the shmups forum (all 72 pages)
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155&sid=b5439b1fe08ed932143e7be92936d6f0

I've even modded a cheap Korean/Chinese 21" TV to take component inputs. It's OSD was built into the jungle chip, so no RGB inputs to take advantage of. But the jungle had an un-utilised ability to accept YCrCb inputs so I used them instead. This was really very easy, just finding the input pins and tracing it back so I could solder wires in without being even close to the jungle.

[RandyT]

It's OSD was built into the jungle chip, so no RGB inputs to take advantage of. But the jungle had an utilised ability to accept YCrCb inputs so I used them instead. This was really very easy, just finding the input pins and tracing it back so I could solder wires in without being even close to the jungle.

That's where I found my info.  Like I wrote, service manuals and chip datasheets .  Unfortunately, not all of these jungle chips have the ability to do this, and even if they do, some of the documentation for more obscure parts is almost impossible to find.  I have a dozen older 19" tube sets here with no way in, as far as I have been able to find, even though they have a simple OSD.  So it's best to try to find a set that someone has already successfully modified, unless you like to do a lot of digging and experimenting.

[pbj]

Don't those jungle chip mods require composite sync?  I don't see anyone hooking up arcade boards to CRTs with those mods.

I've looked into doing it for consoles, but I realize that isn't how consoles looked back in the day so the point is lost on me.

[RandyT]

Don't those jungle chip mods require composite sync?  I don't see anyone hooking up arcade boards to CRTs with those mods.

I've looked into doing it for consoles, but I realize that isn't how consoles looked back in the day so the point is lost on me.

I think most arcade boards are composite sync, aren't they?  Regardless, there are some simple circuits to produce the type of sync you need.

Whether consoles looked that way or not, I can't take looking at dot crawl anymore. RGB provides a ridiculously nice and clean image that makes the alternative difficult to accept, once experienced.

[Zebidee]

All you really need is the datasheet for the jungle IC - or for one close to it! The one I modded had no service manual and most of the datasheets were in Chinese. But I found datasheets/manuals for similar models in English and that was enough.

All you really need is to identify where the relevant pins are, and hopefully some info about how to get into the TVs service mode to change some settings.

Don't those jungle chip mods require composite sync?  I don't see anyone hooking up arcade boards to CRTs with those mods.

I've looked into doing it for consoles, but I realize that isn't how consoles looked back in the day so the point is lost on me.

I think most arcade boards are composite sync, aren't they?  Regardless, there are some simple circuits to produce the type of sync you need.

Whether consoles looked that way or not, I can't take looking at dot crawl anymore. RGB provides a ridiculously nice and clean image that makes the alternative difficult to accept, once experienced.

Most TVs take composite sync, and you can usually just feed the sync in via the TV's composite inputs.

EDIT: Arcade PCBs can be composite or some combination positive and negative H&V sync, so to reliably use a TV for arcade boards you would have to include a sync "cleaner" like an LM1881 chip in your RGB TV mod. You would also want to put some (say) 220ohm resistors (or a 500ohm pot) on each RGB input as arcade RGB signal levels can be up to 5vp-p (TVs want 0.7vp-p).

Seems that "Console kiddies", the 35-50+ age group, are among those taking the lead with RGB modding TVs for retrogaming, as they are now of an age where they have their own kids, stable lives and enough disposable income to start thinking about these things.

These folks often aren't even really interested in arcade cabs, just the CRT TVs

I've heard the NES in RGB is often considered a downgrade, as it is just TOO sharp lol.

[pbj]

Whether consoles looked that way or not, I can't take looking at dot crawl anymore. RGB provides a ridiculously nice and clean image that makes the alternative difficult to accept, once experienced.

How close do you sit to your TV exactly?

[RandyT]

How close do you sit to your TV exactly?

I have big TV's 

Seriously though, ever see that moving "checkerboard" pattern that seems to overlay images on NTSC output with older consoles?  I can't see why anyone would choose to keep that, given the option.  It's a display artifact, and not a useful one.

As to the images being too sharp, it's easily fuzzed up a bit with a slight tweak of the focus knob, if that's what you like.

[Zebidee]

Seriously though, ever see that moving "checkerboard" pattern that seems to overlay images on NTSC output with older consoles?  I can't see why anyone would choose to keep that, given the option.  It's a display artifact, and not a useful one.

As to the images being too sharp, it's easily fuzzed up a bit with a slight tweak of the focus knob, if that's what you like.

I've never really been into consoles myself. I was a little too old to be into them as a kid, at that time they were mostly crap versions of arcade games or PC games. I still enjoyed gaming, but and PC games were (as a general rule) superior to whatever I could've been spending my time with on consoles.

Now imagine the scene in Terminator II when young John Conner laments his lost childhood, spent riding around in helicopters and blowing stuff up, while all the other kids were into "Nin-ten-dooooh". 

These days I appreciate consoles more, at least for some of the better games eg my kids are getting into Zelda.

But yes, the console kiddies are now doing RGB mods to their TVs and their consoles and think of it as a great thing, except perhaps for the NES players. Some of it is pretty good.

[Mr. Peabody]

Since Zebra hasn't commented on my display settings, I'll post an image. 640x480 with scanlines.png. The color of my camera may be a little brighter. Also, the image has been reduced 60% and saved as JPEG to fit here.