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Author Topic: PC Specs for Today's Emulation  (Read 13965 times)

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FrizzleFried

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PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« on: November 12, 2018, 11:37:16 pm »
OK... my 11 year old MAME PC has finally died... not entirely sure where the issue is,  but I suspect the HD is dying... whatever it is,  it's giving me an excuse to UPGRADE...

Gimme a run down of what today's emulation PC's consist of?

What's the CPU of choice for MAME?

How much RAM?

I imagine an Arcade VGA is still the way to go?

SSD surely...

That kinda stuff.

I figure if I have to re-do my MAME it's time to update to the latest and greatest...
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 01:20:51 am by FrizzleFried »
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    • MikeArcade
Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2018, 01:46:59 am »
Entirely depends on your setup and what kind of games you play. Some games are easier to emulate than others. The newer 3d stuff also requires more hardware. If everything played well on your old setup... well you have your answer.

If you are using a CRT you will want a video card that CRT Emudriver supports. No reason not to get one of the cheep, newer supported AMD cards as far as I know.

As far as MAME goes, there certainly have been a lot of great fixes and improvements since '07. Remember that you will have to update your rom set as well.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2018, 04:27:27 am »
Quote
No reason not to get one of the cheep, newer supported AMD cards as far as I know.

Stay clear of the RX580. Mine died 6 weeks in play.  Go Nvidia like a GTX 950 or 1050.  Redream plays pretty good on that card.
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2018, 09:43:47 am »
Quote
No reason not to get one of the cheep, newer supported AMD cards as far as I know.

Stay clear of the RX580. Mine died 6 weeks in play.  Go Nvidia like a GTX 950 or 1050.  Redream plays pretty good on that card.

I'm not looking for a PC gamer... but rater an emulation machine.  At least BITD emulation required CPU horsepower,   rather than GPU.  Is that not the case anymore?   I WOULD like to play the latest and greatest emulated games if possible...

Back in the day NFL BLITZ 99/2K required a Core 2 Duo to play... which I got... what is today's more horsepower hungry games to emulate?  What CPU (or GPU now?) will handle such tasks?

PS: My pc gaming rig has a Radeon RX580 ... now I've only had it since April,  but it's still rocking.  You got a bad card I suspect.


« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 09:50:48 am by FrizzleFried »
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FrizzleFried

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 09:53:38 am »
BTW... as far as EMULATION/ARCADE MAME CAB is concerned... what's a better soluation... the Arcade VGA or this software option.  I currently use a very old ArcadeVGA in my current rig.
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 10:04:35 am »
Any last gen stuff is going to be overkill for MAME and the like. Newer stuff like  CXBXR and Teknoparrot require more horsepower.

CPU:  Get a 5th or 6th gen i5 or i7 dirt cheap and cost effective
RAM: Get as much DDR3 RAM as you can afford and the board supports
HD: SSDs wont impact the actual emulation, but the CHD based games will load faster and so will the PC. You can get a quality Samsung SSD for like $80, its a no brainer.
Video: Get the best card that is supported by CRT Emudriver if you plan to output to an arcade monitor, else just get the best nvidia card you can afford
Sound: jk, onboard is fine nowadays.

OS: I prefer Win7 for the most part but there's nothing wrong with Win10.  Time to let XP go, you need 64 bit OS and 64bit XP sucked.
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 10:30:20 am »
Sound: jk, onboard is fine nowadays.

You joke, but I spent like an hour trying to convince my friend (who is new to the scene) that there was NO REASON to spend $150 on "high fidelity" sound card, amp, and speakers.

... he ended up buying them anyway.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2018, 10:50:59 am »
Sound: jk, onboard is fine nowadays.

You joke, but I spent like an hour trying to convince my friend (who is new to the scene) that there was NO REASON to spend $150 on "high fidelity" sound card, amp, and speakers.

... he ended up buying them anyway.

Audiophoolery is the strangest consumer phenomenon I've ever encountered. People will cling to outrageous, nonsensical beliefs all so they can justify wasting thousands of dollars of their own money.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 10:58:55 am »
Any last gen stuff is going to be overkill for MAME and the like. Newer stuff like  CXBXR and Teknoparrot require more horsepower.

CPU:  Get a 5th or 6th gen i5 or i7 dirt cheap and cost effective
RAM: Get as much DDR3 RAM as you can afford and the board supports
HD: SSDs wont impact the actual emulation, but the CHD based games will load faster and so will the PC. You can get a quality Samsung SSD for like $80, its a no brainer.
Video: Get the best card that is supported by CRT Emudriver if you plan to output to an arcade monitor, else just get the best nvidia card you can afford
Sound: jk, onboard is fine nowadays.

OS: I prefer Win7 for the most part but there's nothing wrong with Win10.  Time to let XP go, you need 64 bit OS and 64bit XP sucked.

Thanks Malenko...

Questions ... How elegant is CRT Emudriver?  The old Soft15khz that I used for one of my rigs works fine,  but it's ugly as hell when I power up and the monitor isn't synced until windows boots and Soft15khz loads up.  I suspect that's the same with this CRT Emudriver?  Would you advise AGAINST an Arcade VGA?

Also,  can you name off some games that "push" current systems a bit ... something I can aim for so to speak?

Is MAME emulating Golden Tee Fore yet?  How about Silver Strike Bowling or any of that generation IT game?  PGA Golf?

It's been a long time since I dipped in to MAME other than to get a classic Pi3 machine (or 3) going (ARpiCADE)...
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 11:37:19 am »
There is a bios modification system for AMD cards that are supported by the CRT Emudriver which allows for 15Khz display prior to windows booting, however it looks like you run into issues with UEFI boards, as their bios screens are sometimes higher resolution than can be outputted in 15Khz.

That having been said, booting into a stripped down Win10 solution on an SSD, on a modernish processor means the time spent displaying garbage is on the order of 9-10 seconds.

Many motherboards allow for disabling any kind of splash screen on boot (instead displaying minimal text based information), and you can disable the Windows loading screen in msconfig with 'noguiboot', which just displays a black screen.

GroovyMAME and the CRT Emudriver are really utterly unique and if you're running an arcade monitor it's the only way to go.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 08:49:20 pm »
BTW... as far as EMULATION/ARCADE MAME CAB is concerned... what's a better soluation... the Arcade VGA or this software option.  I currently use a very old ArcadeVGA in my current rig.

CRT EMU with Groovymame is in a different league to the arcade VGA cards. With an arcade vga you are limited to a handful of resolutions and refresh rates which means you can't play a majority of games in mame at their native refresh rate. This results in screen tearing n stuff.

CRT EMU with Groovy mame generates custom refresh rates on the fly so almost every games comes out perfect with no further need for messing around with settings. There is no better option to use with a CRT. It does everything for you.



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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2018, 04:51:01 am »
I recently went on Newegg and they sell Arrow-Direct refurbished PCs.  I got an i3 2gb (bumped it up to 8gb) 250gb HDD and Windows 10 Home for $57.00 with free shipping.  They had i7s and i5 for $150 more but the i3 is overkill for emulation only.  You cannot make it for the price.  Also the cases are SFF and you can easily stick a 6450HD low height card in there for anything discrete struggles with.  Most are Dells and HP with a few AMD A8s.
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2018, 07:38:43 am »
Any last gen stuff is going to be overkill for MAME and the like. Newer stuff like  CXBXR and Teknoparrot require more horsepower.

nothing is really overkill when it comes to CPU.  MAME is just as demanding as the ones you mention (and the PS3 emulators etc.) but for different reasons and in different areas.  eg. many of those will work with a weaker CPU than MAME, but will require a higher end video card.

even some of the Voodoo based stuff (CartFury etc.) fails to maintain 100% on a 4Ghz i7 from 2 years ago, by my reckoning you'd need something that would clock up to about 5Ghz for that, and that's even after heavy driver optimizations.  Even some of these TV games, that don't look like much more than a SNES are challenging from a performance view (250% here) because the 6502 core was written to be cycle accurate, which is fine at ~3Mhz, but actually *really* demanding if you start trying to run cycle accurate emulations at 20+Mhz, and have a system where every memory access is going through multiple stages of redirect.

high end emulators tend to be programmed around taking advantage of the best hardware available that's beneficial to them.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 07:41:04 am by Haze »

yo1dog

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2018, 09:47:21 am »
because the 6502 core was written to be cycle accurate, which is fine at ~3Mhz, but actually *really* demanding if you start trying to run cycle accurate emulations at 20+Mhz, and have a system where every memory access is going through multiple stages of redirect.

You sound like you know your stuff. As a programmer, I have always been interested in learning more about how accurate emulation works. Got any resources/reading to recommend?

FrizzleFried

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2018, 12:33:35 pm »
I have a spare Dell Optiplex 320 in the shed... but it only has a Pentium Dual Core E2160 @ 1.8GHz.  I'm guessing that's not going to cut it...unless I want to stick with just the classics in which case I might as well stick with the spare Pi3 (ARpiCADE) I have here...?
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2018, 12:37:07 pm »
I have a spare Dell Optiplex 320 in the shed... but it only has a Pentium Dual Core E2160 @ 1.8GHz.  I'm guessing that's not going to cut it...

Easy enough to figure out: just try it. See how it preforms with various games. Let us know the results.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2018, 12:47:18 pm »
It appears that I also have an old AMD A8-5500 APU with built in Radeon graphics... garbage I am sure (the graphics end)... but how's the "CPU" end of things when it comes to an A8?

EDIT: From what I can see here it appears this AMD chip sits right about around the mid-high range of the Intel i3...

...any recommendations for a good CHEAP graphics card for the build?   Does GPU matter now?  I could use the cheap GPU in the current MAME PC... or the on-board if necessary?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 12:53:04 pm by FrizzleFried »
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2018, 01:02:47 pm »
Again, just try it out.

From https://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/FAQ:Performance

Quote
As of this writing, MAME does not pass polygons down to the video card of your system; instead, it renders all 3D graphics by hand in software. Although this code is generally optimized to take advantage of multiple CPUs, it is still quite taxing to do this. Some 3D games give you control of the output resolution; reducing it will reduce the CPU requirements.

However, it also states:
Quote
How can I get games to run faster? ... Upgrade your graphics card, or update your present card's drivers. Swapping your generic (cheap) card for a high-quality (not cheap) card will certainly boost performance. If you are using on-board (integrated) video, you'll see a great performance increase by simply getting a new graphics card. Check your graphics card drivers, too. Newer drivers — especially for cheaper cards — can make all the difference.


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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2018, 01:19:14 pm »
I don't know when that was written and it contradict what I've always heard (that a better video card won't help performance). :dunno

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2018, 01:25:09 pm »
Again, just try it out.

From https://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/FAQ:Performance

Quote
As of this writing, MAME does not pass polygons down to the video card of your system; instead, it renders all 3D graphics by hand in software. Although this code is generally optimized to take advantage of multiple CPUs, it is still quite taxing to do this. Some 3D games give you control of the output resolution; reducing it will reduce the CPU requirements.

However, it also states:
Quote
How can I get games to run faster? ... Upgrade your graphics card, or update your present card's drivers. Swapping your generic (cheap) card for a high-quality (not cheap) card will certainly boost performance. If you are using on-board (integrated) video, you'll see a great performance increase by simply getting a new graphics card. Check your graphics card drivers, too. Newer drivers — especially for cheaper cards — can make all the difference.

Life is too short to play around with this stuff when you can ask a few key questions and skip right to the meat of things.  I really don't have a bunch of time to put in to this build so I have to pretty much decide what I am doing and do it.  I'm actually on the fence with this cabinet anyway... I currently have two dozen arcade machines in the garagecade... and to be honest,  I play this MAME cabinet very very little.  I'm sort of trying to decide what path I want to go down.  I wouldn't mind making a more modern emulation cabinet,   but I am hamstrung with the standard resolution monitor currently in it.  I don't have a spare Tri-Res sitting around to drop in either.  With that in mind,  I'm guessing I could get away with using what I have here without issue as it's faster than the current rig in the cabinet... but do I want to bother knowing I won't be able to do much more than what it already does (I might get a few FPS more in Blitz).

I might just drop a Pandora's Box in the cabinet (something I too having sitting around) then sell the damn thing on CL for $500 and call it a day.

:D

There was a time when I relished dicking around with my MAME cabinet.  Those days are long-gone... Ease is king in my old age...

;)

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2018, 01:29:00 pm »
I gotcha. I am jealous of your garage.

Well the only thing I can tell you fore sure is that the 6700K ($300) benchmarks well: http://www.mameui.info/Bench.htm :lol

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2018, 03:06:19 pm »
the main issue with those SFF PCs is the half height video card, really limits the selection. I guess unless you wanna Dremel the case.

If it were me, I wouldn't put an 8 year old PC in to replace a 15 year old one, you'll just have to do it again in 8 years. Pick up a last gen trick it out, then don't worry about it for the next 2 decades.
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and
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Thats for performance, if you want it based on price, flip em ;)


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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2018, 04:45:30 pm »
Well you can future proof your cab by adding a Steam Link in it.  I added a spare Steam Link into a 1UP Galaga.  I can use my main PC as an extension or rather any mame cab as a controller.  Your encoder reads like a keyboard and the Steam Link is good to go.  The other idea is to get an Intel NUC with Iris discrete graphics.  These things are tiny and have a somewhat decent CPU, yet so is a Pi3.  I would not want to go out and buy a $500 PC when I have one in the study that is on 24/7.  Zero lag too.

Just make sure you wire it up and not use wifi.
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2018, 12:09:20 pm »
because the 6502 core was written to be cycle accurate, which is fine at ~3Mhz, but actually *really* demanding if you start trying to run cycle accurate emulations at 20+Mhz, and have a system where every memory access is going through multiple stages of redirect.

You sound like you know your stuff. As a programmer, I have always been interested in learning more about how accurate emulation works. Got any resources/reading to recommend?

I'm not really sure there are any specific resource on 'accurate' emulation.  Accuracy isn't a black/white thing, there are varying degrees.  For CPUs a lot of old cores simply execute each instruction as one block of logic with a block 'time' value it takes to execute, a more accurate emulation divides that into multiple calls for each step of the instruction (fetching opcodes, fetching oprands, fetching data, processing data, writing data etc.) each with their own timing value.  That's obviously a lot more overhead, but for accurate emulation, necessary, because external devices can often halt CPU execution in the middle of opcodes etc.

It's not really a simple thing to write about as there are so many cases to consider, and even if you know all the variables, writing code that works for every case can be difficult.  MAME still doesn't do a good job of actual waitstates etc. and in most cases doesn't emulate CPU cache, or the associated cache hit / miss penalties etc. for 32-bit and above CPUs etc.  Again in some cases you really do have to emulate that stuff, as there is software that erases the RAM it's running code from, but doesn't crash because the actual code is running from instruction cache and hasn't seen that the RAM was erased beneath it etc.

Keeping everything properly in time is key to accurate emulation too, and of course a big factor in things running more slowly as you have the overhead of checking what needs to run next and switching all the time.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2018, 08:09:02 am »
the main issue with those SFF PCs is the half height video card, really limits the selection. I guess unless you wanna Dremel the case.

EVGA makes a nice half-height gtx 1030 card, which is a great card for emulation use. Passively cooled also, so no noise. $79.

https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-GeForce-Passive-Graphics-02G-P4-6332-KR/dp/B073VPKV26/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1542546390&sr=8-6&keywords=gtx+1030+low+profile

You can get a gtx 1050 half height also, but costs about $150

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2018, 11:52:46 am »
Ho-lee----fudgesicle---! Vanilla Gorilla! Long time no see!
%Bartop

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2018, 01:20:13 pm »
Aw, the feels! Despite reports to to the contrary, reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated. Nice to see they haven't painted the place, still feels like home!

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2018, 04:04:01 am »
Curious if anyone might share specs on a machine they have that runs Rush 2049 as well as can be expected.. I know it is listed in Mame as NOT WORKING, but I see videos of it all over youtube..

- Thanks

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2018, 05:13:16 am »
ArcadeVGA is our, crt_emudriver is in. Check the groovymame sub forum and stickies. Grab any compatible card.

Your correct about SSD.

I use windows 10 1607 enterprise as it’s quick and I can 100% hide windows booting easily.

My setup is an i3-2100 4gb ram. It plays gauntleg and blitz over 100%. Better components will yield a faster boot, and isn’t a bad thing. My boot into attractmode takes 11 seconds. Stick with Intel I series cpu.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2018, 08:39:40 am »
the main issue with those SFF PCs is the half height video card, really limits the selection. I guess unless you wanna Dremel the case.

EVGA makes a nice half-height gtx 1030 card, which is a great card for emulation use...…….


I didn't say that there weren't any good ones, just a lot fewer. I didn't even know 1030 cards existed, I thought 1050s were bottom of the 10XX line lol
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2018, 01:00:32 pm »
ArcadeVGA is our, crt_emudriver is in. Check the groovymame sub forum and stickies. Grab any compatible card.

Your correct about SSD.

I use windows 10 1607 enterprise as it’s quick and I can 100% hide windows booting easily.

My setup is an i3-2100 4gb ram. It plays gauntleg and blitz over 100%. Better components will yield a faster boot, and isn’t a bad thing. My boot into attractmode takes 11 seconds. Stick with Intel I series cpu.

Really?
That's a $70 PC shipped off ebay
did not know.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2018, 12:58:07 am »
because the 6502 core was written to be cycle accurate, which is fine at ~3Mhz, but actually *really* demanding if you start trying to run cycle accurate emulations at 20+Mhz, and have a system where every memory access is going through multiple stages of redirect.

You sound like you know your stuff.


Oh perhaps.....


https://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2018, 11:54:26 am »
ArcadeVGA is our, crt_emudriver is in. Check the groovymame sub forum and stickies. Grab any compatible card.

Your correct about SSD.

I use windows 10 1607 enterprise as it’s quick and I can 100% hide windows booting easily.

My setup is an i3-2100 4gb ram. It plays gauntleg and blitz over 100%. Better components will yield a faster boot, and isn’t a bad thing. My boot into attractmode takes 11 seconds. Stick with Intel I series cpu.

Really?
That's a $70 PC shipped off ebay
did not know.

Yep. I made two revisions of this computer. Second revision was with a smaller motherboard and case, but same socket due to reduced cost. They are practically giving the cpu’s away now because the socket is phased out.

If size wasn’t a concern for me, I’d grab a refurbished optiplex. They are going for cheap and have better cpu specs than mine. Add video card and ssd, good to go. I just wanted a small case, so I spent the money - but knew where to save.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2018, 09:43:46 pm »
Sound: jk, onboard is fine nowadays.

You joke, but I spent like an hour trying to convince my friend (who is new to the scene) that there was NO REASON to spend $150 on "high fidelity" sound card, amp, and speakers.

... he ended up buying them anyway.

 These Audio Arguments are Far from the truth... and are largely based on Ignorance.. as well the possibility of these individuals not having decent hearing ranges.


 First... I will state that Onboard Audio has improved in quality over the years... but... it still falls Far short of dedicated hardware that is decades older.


 At work,  I have a PC that has Onboard sound.  Its a Realtech based chipset,  and has all sorts of features,  as well as a software based EQ.
To get decent sound out of it... you really need to use the EQ... as the base output is wretched.   The problem?

 The EQ is wildly erratic.   For one... there is a delay between the time you adjust it,  to it actually changing.   That alone, would not be that bad... but... the real problem is that the EQ sliders are not stable nor accurate.   If you crank up the treble ranges,  it will suck some "power" from the low end bass.   Each slider is sort of tallied into an algorythm, that ends up spreading power levels between all of the sliders.   This is not how an EQ is supposed to work!  >_<    Worse yet... is that if I slide a few of the levels up and down... then return them to the original positions... the EQ does not sound the same.   I have to actually max out a slider value,  to get it re-calibrated to the correct level that it visibly reports.   What this is indicating... is that not only are power levels being slid around... but actual frequency values are being slid around as well.   Its a damn mess.

 Now.. if your Music / Movies...etc.. are all relatively balanced,  and you do not need to adjust the EQ... then this may be acceptable for you.   Add in some distortion of the Audio signals... and thus some muddying of the sounds.

 The other issue with Any "Onboard" device... is that they tend to use  "Shared Ram".   If you have a lot of ram... this may not seem like that big of a deal... but its much deeper than that.   These chips are heavily reliant on  Software functionality.  This means, that your CPU is also going to be doing a lot more processing,  than it would if you were using a dedicated 100% hardware card solution.

 Those in the know... will Immediately disable ALL onboard hardware in the PCs Bios... to Maximize the PCs performance.  (Also removing all traces of any potential Drivers that were installed... if the system was previously loaded with the hardware enabled)    One might think that the onboard hardware doesnt impact performance that much... but I can assure you,  that the performance boost can be quite Surprising.


 My older Soundblaster Audigy,  and even soundblaster cards older than that... blow my work PCs onboard Audio out of the water,  in every way.
The stock sound almost perfectly balanced... without much, if any, need for EQ.   The audio seems far less radical in swings,  between different songs, movies, games..etc.   The Treble / Bass  sliders are rock solid... and there is no frequency drifting issues... nor is there any issues of power-sharing.  If you crank up the bass... the highs do not drop in frequency, nor volume.  Likewise for the inverse.     The best part about the card is the crystal clear, distortion free highs.  There is a magical quality of these cards to produce audio so cleanly... that once you have heard the Onboard comparison... it makes you want to Vomit in disgust.


 You must realize... that there is a reason why these cards have so many components, and are quite complex in their looks.   You can not expect to get Lamborghini results... from a Dump Truck.


 As for the argument about Audio-foolery...  that depends on what you are talking about.   Paying +$200 for specialty Monster-audio cables... isnt going to really net any discernible value, to the average speaker + amp + volume levels...etc... if at all.    However... any time I have handed someone my Sennheiser HD 590 headphones to listen to... their jaws hit the ground... their eyes widen,  and they are absolutely blown away by the difference in the experience.   Even from people whom first admitted that their ears were not the greatest...  even they could tell the difference,  and were astounded.

 People latch on to heavily advertised name-brands... like Bose, Beats, and Klipsch...  but these companies are Smoke and Mirrors + Garbage (in comparison to Real Audiophile grade equipment).   Beats uses a horribly inaccurate driver set,  that is not much better than a cheap 20$ headphone.   Id wager that the drivers cost about 5$ to manufacture... and are really poor in their ability to deliver clear and precise audio... let alone a true spatial 3d image.   As for speakers... Bose and Klipsch use very low powered drivers... that basically require a sub-woofer to TRY to cover the huge gapping mid and low woofer frequencies.  They use ports, with distort the bass sounds... as well as the audio in general.  And they use a sub/woofer that is too small in diameter,  and or case tricks to amplify a bass-effect... which results in a very artificial sound...  (that tends to get even worse with higher volumes)

 A fellow collector friend of mine,  had just ordered a very expensive pair of Bose headphones.  I had my older HD 500  headphones on me at the time... and had him listen.  He nearly cried... at how much better they sounded... and how much cheaper they were.   Not only that... but how comfortable,  and durable.  Mine lasted about 13 years before I managed to break the band,  due to extreme temperatures,  when I was forced so sleep with them on in my minivan,  in the middle of the winter.    As good as the 500 was... the 590  was Leaps and bounds over it,  from frequency ranges, to clarity, accuracy, and pretty much Zero distortion...even at the highest of volumes.


 Audiophile Speakers  -vs-  Modern big-box speakers  -vs-  Overpriced PC speakers


 I have a pair of EPI 100mv  speakers.   They are about bookself size... with only two drivers.   An 8" woofer,  and a 1" inverted dome tweeter.
I used to own FOUR technique 3-way speakers... that were rated for 200 watts each.   After listening to the EPIs at a friends local business... and being blown away by the fact that I could not located the speakers without him pointing out where they were  (thats how amazing the 3d imaging is)...  I could never go back to the Techniques.   Not only are the EPIs far superior in the 3d imaging... (nearly the whole room is the "Sweet-spot" !) .. but the Bass is far deeper, richer, accurate, and powerful.   The EPIs are not ported... so the bass is not  Farty-Fake,  as is the case with the Techs.

 The EPIs are nearly half the size of the techs... but if you were to pick each of them up... you would be shocked.  The Techs are light as a feather... were as the EPIs are heavy as an Anchor.   The reason?   EPIs use thicker wood for the cabinet.. but thats just the start.  The woofer driver itself,  has a FAR stronger magnet driver.  While the techs woofer is a 12"... the EPIs 8" totally decimates it,  in every way.

 The most Modern speakers are even worse.   They use even smaller drivers,  such as using three low quality 6 inch mid-woofer drivers.  They lack power, depth, and accurate control... AND,  because of their weak magnets + ported design... they are horribly artificial and distorted.   They tend to require a person to buy a Subwoofer, to try to fill in the lows.  However... the Subs that tend to come with these systems... and or are recommended...  are low quality "Thumpers".  They are not Musically accurate... and are mostly for filler and Effect.  Yet... because they are subs.. and not actually woofers... these speakers are lacking a large spectrum of bottom end... all the while... are giving the end user a distorted farty and thumpy mess.

 PC speakers are the worst Rip-Offs of all...  as they use even lower powered, and lower quality drivers...  that are powered by an  All-in-one  Sub+Amp.   They are FAR over-priced... especially for the performance.  But worse yet... is that their Amps are such low quality.. that they tend to fail in less than a 2 year span of time.

 I bought my EPI speakers used + re-foamed,  for about $100.   They blow away EVERYTHING that is at my local high-end stereo shop... including their most expensive $3500 ish pair.   Not by a little...  the EPIs totally Slaughter them,  in every way possible.

 My advice to people... IF they love good high quality music... is to get a  Soundblaster Sound-Card,  a used stereo amp from a  thrift / 2nd hand shop  (the older models tend to be better + more powerful in general),  and a used pair of restored Vintage speakers.   One will have to do some research into which vintage models are good..  and get to understand the reasons why.   Not all EPI models,  for example... are great.  Towards the 80s... many speaker companies started cutting corners, using ports, cheaper drivers... thinner cabinets,  poor quality crossovers...etc.

 The rise in labor and materials did play some factor in this... but also,  there is an environmental agenda,  that also drove this.  Ported speakers sound louder, due to more sound being able to exit the cabinet.  Since they do not have to deal with high air-pressure environments that you will find in a sealed box... they can use lower powered magnet drivers... and thus,  will need less Electricity to drive them.   Of course... the quality and clarity of the audio suffers Dramatically, as a result.


 The agendist do not want the average Joe to know that they are being Scammed with over-priced garbage.   And to make things worse... most all music that has been produced over the years,  has been highly compressed... to further reduce power consumption.   You may notice that a CD made 10 years ago... sounds quieter than one made in recent years.  Thats because they peg all of the channels at near maximum volume.  You get louder audio.. but you lose the dynamic range and clarity.  Every year over the last 20 years.. studios have been compressing audio, progressively worse and worse,  each passing year.   And those over-prices Re-masters?!  They are FAR inferior to the original CDs / tapes / masters... because of that compression.  (in addition to some other horrible practices)

 So... the Shills will try to create a Divide,  to keep people Ignorant,  of what they are being denied.   To keep people fighting among themselves,  and their own ignorant Ego-drivin bias's.   The truth does not care about your Pride / Ego / feelings.

 Feeling you are right... is not the same thing as Being right.
 Having the Opinions and Assumptions of something... is Not the same as Depth of Knowledge and Experience.


 TLDR -  High Definition Audio is Far Superior to overpriced name brand Garbage,  and Cheap Onboard Chipset Junk.
 
 ++ And...  If you disable Onboard junk,  and remove all of the drivers... you will get a nice Performance Boost
 
 +++  Finally... Not all PC motherboards are Optimal.  Companies like Dell do not use high quality components,  AND, they do not spend
a lot of time / energy on making their Circuitboard designs as Efficient / Performance  based.. as a Custom companies Motherboard does.
Even with the Fastest CPU... the poor designs of Pre-Build motherboards, can radically slow and cripple its performance.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 10:01:08 pm by pixel »

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2018, 03:35:57 pm »


 TLDR -  High Definition Audio is Far Superior to overpriced name brand Garbage,  and Cheap Onboard Chipset Junk.
 


Unless you're listening to something like this, it doesn't matter.




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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2018, 04:40:49 pm »
Right out of the gate he opened up with Audiophool Nonsense Excuse #0001: "You just don't have golden ears!" so I disregarded the rest.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2018, 04:58:38 pm »
I rarely just sit still and listen to music, so $300 headphones would be lost on me.  Might be fun to pump some of my industrial ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- through them and see if the screaming sex robots sound any better.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2018, 07:59:05 pm »
I built a new PC this year and was very dissappointed in the onboard audio (Asus tuf x470 plus).

  I couldn't use my old Asus xonar card because the Mobo didn't have a full size pci slot.  The onboard sound bothered me enough to spend $40 on a new xonar card with the shorter pcix1 connector.

 No idea what the card does that the mobo doesn't, but it sounds much more dynamic (higher highs & lower lows) and more detailed.

I also have one in the MAME cab.  Doesn't make any difference on the old school games, but let me tweak the sound to get the the Naomi Shmups like psyvariar 2 sounding spectacular.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2018, 08:21:47 pm »
 I usually find onboard sound completely fine for regular use.  I'm going deaf anyways. There is one reason for hifi hum.
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2018, 08:48:04 am »
After all this I ended up taking the easy way out.  I already had a spare ARpiCADE sitting here (Pi3+ JAMMA interface for those not familiar) and,  well,  it does all I ask it to do.  After a bit of testing the only game that I played on my old MAME rig that I can't on the Pi3+ is Blitz... which I rarely played anyway.  World Class Bowling... Shuffleshot... Shuuz... all play great...

My trackball and spinner plugged right in and worked... what more can I ask for?

As a bonus... much less heat!

:D
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2018, 09:13:16 am »
Put blitz in standard res via dip switches and see if it runs better
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2018, 12:55:30 am »


 TLDR -  High Definition Audio is Far Superior to overpriced name brand Garbage,  and Cheap Onboard Chipset Junk.
 


Unless you're listening to something like this, it doesn't matter.




 Old School Arcade games, and the elder console games... use FM Synthesizer chips.  These chips are capable of some of the most hi-fidelity, dynamic sounds.
(unlike todays pop tunes... which then to use pre-recorded low-fidelity  "Samples".

 As a result,  if you so choose to use low quality options... you may miss out of what these systems are capable of.   From dull and missing treble.. to a lacking in the low end bass.

 I have an old  Yamaha DX7 IID  keyboard (which sadly, got damaged in all of the moves Ive made). There are sounds the DX7 makes... that will totally astound you.
There is a certain magic about FM sounds... especially when they are clean and clear... though a great output system.

 For me... clean and clear audio is just as... if not more important than video quality.   Many older games do not have that great of graphics to begin with... but... they have ICONIC sound effects and music.   These sounds far make up for the lacking graphics.. as they create an emotional environment.   This is why some of the more Iconic films are such big hits.   If the original  Star-Wars  series came out with a techno-soundtrack... it Never would have reached the worldwide success it has gained.  The genius emotion packed score... enhances the scenes into a whole other level of depth and emotional impact.

 All I can say... is that if you believe Onboard is just fine... them play side-by-side  Onboard -vs- Dedicated Soundblaster.   Put your ears and your soul... to the test.  I doubt most people will have any issue telling the two apart.

 And as Ive said... you get a nice performance boost as well.... with dedicated soundcards.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2018, 01:25:57 am »
Right out of the gate he opened up with Audiophool Nonsense Excuse #0001: "You just don't have golden ears!" so I disregarded the rest.

 So... Right out of the Gate... you failed due to your Butthurt Bias.

 What do you think about a Chef that smokes often?    Do you think they have the same palette as someone whom does not smoke?!

 NOPE!

 The Truth does not care about what you FEEL.   Its merely is or is Not.

 If you have a low level of tastebud receptors... you can eat almost anything... and consider it absolutely wonderful... as your depth of sense
would be limited in such a way... as potentially to not be able to taste something that is  "Off ".    I have met several people like this... whom
have recommended certain estamblishments to eat at... with RAVING positive reviews.   I take one bite... and I am instantly regretting it.  >_<

 The same of true for the Eyes.   Many people on this site... took an Online color Test.   There were like 120 colored boxes,  and you had to
arrange them perfectly,  in spectrum shade and order.  This was not an easy test... as many of the colors looked so close to each other... that
it was hard to tell them apart.   It took me a good amount of time to complete the test... but I actually scored 100%.   However... I was
quite shocked to see that many other people were getting 60% or far lower.   It turns out... that many people lack the ability to sense
certain color hues.   They are not color blind... but simply,  see less shades of each color.  To them... them may see 10 shades of Red... and
all of them look 100% the same... where as I... and many others... can see all 10 different shades,  very clearly and easily.

 Sound is no different.  Some people have different hearing abilities.   Part of this is due to different shapes of the ears.  Part is due to limited
sensory ability.  Part is due to actual hearing damages.    I have met many people whom experience audio very differently.  I tend to turn up
treble and bass... lowering the midrange.   Yet... I had a friend whom could not stand high treble... and had to blast the midrange spectrum...
because he clearly could not hear it on the same level as me.   Another guy I met, liked my Sennheiser headphones... but chose to order some
AKG headphones.   I tried them on... and the midrange was way too over-powering.   I tried everything I could to reduce it... but they were so
over-blasted... that no amount of EQ could regulate them to an acceptable level.   He found them to be perfectly awesome... and so obviously,
his mid-range reception ability... was not very good.


 This is why you see so many headphone reviews all over the map.   Part of this is because people are using poor under-powered amps.
Part is because people are not using  High-Quality  audio sources.   Some of it is because people are not properly EQ-ing the audio to
make the most of their headphones.  Some is due to poor quality Amps.   And finally... some is due to everyone's different Audio Sensory
abilities.


 I placed that FACT up front... to denote the reality.   Just because "I",  and maybe 85% of the rest of the world can hear the differences
between an Audiophile headphone... and a POS generic headphone...   does not mean that  YOU   will be able to experience the same thing...
should you decide to invest in better, and sometimes more expensive... equipment.


 But... if You DO  have a decent set of ears... then you Should read on... in that you may be lead to a whole other level of
experience.   Something so radical... that you still do not even know exists  /  is  possible.    Something that will turn your
current idea of an audio experience of  "7 out of 10"...   into a 2.   Something so profound... that you will find that you end
up having a pair of HD Headphones on your head... for over 10hrs out of every day... as you can not accept anything beneath
this experience,  anymore.   That is how much Difference there is.   It will literally change your life.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 01:31:02 am by pixel »

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2018, 02:43:53 am »
Ohh.. and No.   Orchestral Music is not the Prime motivator for Audiophile equipment.

 Let me explain the story of how I... a very POOR $$$ guy...  got into Audiophile headphones and speakers...

 I am not so nice with my headphones.  I tend to wear them for long periods of time.  End up falling asleep with them on.
Take them out into the winter weather...as earmuffs + music.   I end up dropping them,  or catching the cord on things...
often due to the chaotic level of life I have lived...

 Therefore... most headphones I have owned..   tend to last less than 3 months,  before they break in some way.
Typically... the headphone cord is the thing that broke... but some headphones also broke the mounts completely.

 After buying several pairs... ranging from $20 to $80...  and not having good luck...  I saw a pair of $120 headphones
next to an 80-ish pair.   I think it was a Circuit-City.   Anyway... $80  was a lot of extra money for me at the time... so
$130 seemed way too much to every consider... BUT... the higher dollar set had one massive difference that
intrigued me:  A Removable (Replaceable)  Cord.

 Being that cords were the thing that used to break on me the most often... I decided that it would Probably be worth
the extra money... even IF the sound quality was not any better than what Id heard before.   In fact... I was quite
depressed in that many times I had chosen more expensive headphones... only to get a similar sound quality.  After a
while of getting the same types of results... you figure that there is nothing really beyond that level of experience.

 So... I squeezed my wallet dry of its cash... and bought the Sennheiser HD 500 headphones... and to be honest,  I had
a sinking feeling in my stomach... that It was a dumb purchase, that I would regret.

 I get home... and it takes me a while before I finally open them up,  and decided to test them out.   It was probably
about 2am in the morning,  and there were a few others in the house asleep.   I actually had one of the first few
5 speaker Pioneer Surround sound Amps,  that they made.   I also have FOUR  Technique's,  12"  Three-Way speakers.
Each of these speakers was rated for 200 watts.   I had even modified them,  with an additional super-tweeter... to
make them even more refined.   They were quite clear, and powerful.

 I fired up the PC,  popped in a DVD,  turned on the Amp,  donned the headphones... and then hit PLAY.

 Suddenly... the movie came on,  and was blasting Loudly..  all over the room.   Ohh my God!   I must have forgotten to
turn off the main speakers!!!   I ripped off the headphones,  and DOVE to the Amp... to reach for the speaker channel
toggles...  but then I realized something amazing...    The main speakers were not on!!!    The headphones were so
precise and 3d... that it sounded like my Entire Surround Sound system was on!!!   I had NEVER experienced something like
that with ANY of the 30 or so previous headphones I had owned before.   Not even CLOSE to that.   It was mind-blowing.

 In fact... those headphones produced better audio than my house speakers.  So... after that moment... it was pretty rare
that I actually used my Techniques.   I wore my Senns like +10hrs a day... often falling asleep with them on.  Because they
are so comfortable and light... I sometimes forgot I had them on... as suddenly Id feel the cord pop out of them, as I
got up and started to walk out of the room.

 The Senns did not sound like headphones.  When you had them on... it simply felt like there was speakers on in the room.
You didnt feel like the sound was in or near your ears.  You felt like the band was live... in your room.  You could often
pinpoint where each instrument played... was in 3d space... all over the room.

 Unlike my Techs... the Senns bass was clean... which was something I was not used to.   The techs, with their port... made
very Muddy and Distorted bass sounds... and so hearing much cleaner and clearer bass... was so much more pleasing to the
ears.   They also were able to produce very crystal clear high frequencies... that did not distort... even with heavy bass.
Also... the bass itself did not distort at all... even at the maximum volume that I could stand.  Where as most headphones Id used
before this... could not take half as much power... and would be totally distorting from being over-driven.

 One day I was playing my MP3 player... and one of my songs starts out as rain and a light thunder sound.   It was so realistic
from these headphones... that I actually thought it was raining outside... and I turned my head to look out of the window.
I have to say... that its Really hard to fool my ears... as they are very sensitive...  even in my elder age... so it was amazing that
I was completely fooled into thinking that the sound was from outside of the house.   I found that so awesome... that I decided to
try and see if someone else wound have that same reaction.   I handed the set to my father... and asked him to listen to
hold on while I find the song I wanted him to hear.  I selected the "Rain" song... and as soon as he heard it... he immediately looked
out of the nearest window!  lol

 Playing Movies via the PC... was just as good as using surround sound speakers.  I never would have imagined that one could get
such a 3d sound... from only two speaker drivers.   It was mind blowing.   Especially since there was no digital effects nor any
special electronics in them.

 Playing music with them was insane... because all of the sudden,  you would hear things in music,  that in a +10 years of previous
listens... you had never heard before!   Many songs that I previously never could make out what the singer was saying... I was finally
able to hear 100% clearly,  and could actually understand!    I found myself re-listening to every CD / MP3... that I ever had... just
to experience the clarity difference.


 Fast forwards...


 The Sennheiser Headphones lasted my about 13 years before I finally managed to break them completely.   I replaced the cable
a few times,  and replaced the ear pads at least once (less than 15$ shipped,  for the ear pads).

 I then found a pair of  HD590  headphones on Craigslist.   They looked as if they had never been used.   I think I paid the man $150
for them.   Initially... I thought they were way too weak on bass... and was almost not going to purchase them.  I quickly found out...
that these headphones were far more Sensitive than the 500's.  They also had a far greater frequency response.   When I finally started
feeding it high quality audio... rather than lower quality MP3s..   they Really shined.   The bass got even Lower than the 500s... so long
as the recording was produced that way.   The 500s sort of artificially boosted and smoothed things out... where these were Surgically
Precise.   Once fed better audio... I was in true heaven.   The biggest thing of note... was that the high-end was about 70% clearer.
It was Breathtakingly accurate and detailed.

 When I was considering buying them... I figured that the jump from the 500 to 590... would not be that noticeable in audio fidelity.
Boy was I wrong!   It was monolithic.

 And finally... more recently... I had got the HD650,  via  Massdrop...  for a mere $250.  (A total Steal of a deal,  for Audiophile headphones)
I had to say... that they seem to be far more durable than the 590s... but,  they are not as comfy.   A little more head-clamping force than
I care for... but its certainly not that bad at all.   As for the musical difference...  It seems that these can handle more power, and have
a very decent out-of-the-box  level of sound.. even without any EQ'ing.   They seems to be able to smooth the sounds a bit better,
when using lower quality audio-sources... than the 590s.   That said... they do not have as wide of a 3d Soundstage,  as the 590s...
and I really miss that.  Other than that... they are very similar in audio reproduction... as far as I can tell.

 The only thing that has ever came close to my Sennheiser headphone experience... is the EPI 100 speakers,  that I heard at a friends
shop.  They had the most insane clarity, punchy clean bass, and 3d soundstage... that Id ever heard.  The 3d sound was so amazing...that
I actually could not physically located where the speakers were within the room!   After 10 min of searching... I finally broken down, and
asked my friend what they were, and where the hell they were!  lol

 I was floored... as he pointed these tiny bookshelf speakers out... that were in the most non-optimal spots!   One was laying on its side.
Both were topped with items / magazines.  One was even partially blocked,  by a machine.  Yet... the music was All around the room... as
crystal clear as if it was a damn live performance.   It didnt take long after that... before I got my mittens on a pair for myself.


 I am leaving out a lot of other things... such as how I experimented with various speakers + custom boxes.   Id often collect low-cost
used vintage speakers from the thrift shops.  It learned the hard way... that simply trying to insert a bunch of speakers into a box... was
not going to make good high fidelity sound.   Its far more complex than that.   I eventually started learning about the differences of the
components,  and the types of speakers design differences.   There is a lot more to learn... than I ever expected would be.
 

Malenko

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2018, 08:24:25 am »
And as Ive said... you get a nice performance boost as well.... with dedicated soundcards.

No you don't.  Modern day on board sound cards have their own processor embedded in the motherboard. Using a dedicated card would have little to no impact on PC performance. On board cards haven't used significant CPU cycles in well over a decade.
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
I also need to follow this advice. Ignore or report, don't reply.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2018, 09:41:18 am »
Pixel. You are the richest poor guy I know. You claim poverty all of the time, but you own or have owned everything.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2018, 04:26:38 pm »
Pixel. You are the richest poor guy I know. You claim poverty all of the time, but you own or have owned everything.

Some people spend all their money on one thing. Then again poor to him might mean he can't afford $2000 speakers. Regardless, it's wildly off topic, and given the length a bit obnoxious. He could've posted once stating the crux of his idea, and started a topic in Everything Else and linked to it. He might have gotten some conversation out of it.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2018, 04:31:39 pm »
Off topic, too long, and obnoxious are all kind of his thing.

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Re: PC Specs for Today's Emulation
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2018, 10:41:44 pm »
I’m cool with old @ss emulated sound coming from whatever integrated sound in my pc and out to my original old @ass 4” speakers. :dunno