New Lightgun Testing - What would you like to see?

[Titchgamer]

Ok Guys I said a few weeks ago I had some interesting opportunities coming up regarding lightgun tech.
Well this weekend I am meeting up with Andy Sinden (The guy behind the Sinden lightgun), He is allowing me to have a play with his product and do some tests etc. He has asked me as I live within a reasonable distance and has realized I am a light gun whore which you all know :p
I think he is looking for some feedback as well as allowing me to try this out first hand as a independent reviewer.

Now I have a list of stuff I would like to test out and games to try but what would you guys like to see?

• I am obv going to be checking how well it tracks both from normal in front positions but also while being off at angles etc
• Try to test it out on a CRT if I manage to track a working one down before Sat.
• Be trying to work out min distances from screen
• Emulator/PC game compatibility
• Effects of light and reflective surfaces
• Effects of lag

Now obv we will be constrained in terms of what I have available in terms of equipment and time but is there any burning questions you would like me to ask or things to test out (if possible)?

I was hoping I could maybe do a side by side with my A51:S4 cab but allas mame does not emulate S4 properly yet so thats a no go.
I also dont have a capture card so everything will be filmed via a standard cam.

We will be capturing video footage and maybe some stills etc but I obv have to be respectful of his IP if there are things he does not want in the public domain yet.

Any who I think this is a great opportunity to try this hardware out and give the guy some help in terms of positive feedback along with any improvement or limitations etc.

So yeah let me know if you have anything.

[BadMouth]

I wish someone who wasn't so happy with their Aim-Traks was testing it.

Move the gun around a lot during play.  Make sure MAME has been set up properly.  People complain about lag on positional gun games when they haven't even adjusted sensitivity or dead zone.

[BadMouth]

If you have a go pro, mount it on the gun looking down the sights.

[Titchgamer]

Cheers for the vote of confidence there!
:s

To be clear I am happy with my AT’s because they do the job and are better than anything else on the market that I have tried (and I have tried nearly all of them).

No they aint as good as a real light gun but they are far better than all other IR guns.

I do have a small go pro style camera which I can hopefully tape on.

Was planning on playing point blank as that moves the gun around and tests accuracy better than any other game I can think of.

[markc74]

I think if u can get hold of a crt to test that would be handy to see how it handles (or doesn’t!) the curvature of the screen

[Titchgamer]

Sadly despite my best efforts I have been unable to acquire a VGA CRT monitor (God knows I have tried the last 2 weeks!)

However Andy has asked if he could use my CRT TV that I use for my old console games and hook it up to a Pi.
Of course this is fine by me but we will not be able to test any games as it is not supported yet by the Pi yet.

But he thinks we should be able to prove in principal if it would work or not if it will track.
I will of course update you all with that one.

I have also knocked up a sort of camera harness that I can strap to my wrist so hopefully you will be able to see the sights with any luck, I may not be able to though on the other hand haha!

I am also planing on doing some comparison videos with Aim traks and My GCON 45. I did want to do some with my site 4 cab however the tracking mark on the screen does not correlate to where the gun is pointing (always low and right despite the gun shooting centre!) plus it is very hard to see on camera.

I will be doing those videos on my own though after Andy has gone as time will be short to play with the sinden gun which is obviously the main interest. Plus I want to try and test as many variables as possible.

[SammyWI]

1. Accuracy using only the the gun sights (no on screen cross hair) as mentioned earlier.
2. Possible to use with a projector screen and the accuracy there?
3. Any way to produce just a mouse click as a background program?  (For use as a generic input to any program.)

Apologies if any of those have been answered but I'd like to hear it from an independent tester.  Thanks!

[Titchgamer]

1. Accuracy using only the the gun sights (no on screen cross hair) as mentioned earlier.
2. Possible to use with a projector screen and the accuracy there?
3. Any way to produce just a mouse click as a background program?  (For use as a generic input to any program.)

Apologies if any of those have been answered but I'd like to hear it from an independent tester.  Thanks!

1) Yup we will be doing that for sure.

2) I will test with a projector if we have time but he has told me he has proved it with a projector himself so at least that is a known worker lol

3) Can you explain that a bit better? Not sure I understand?

[SammyWI]

As a generic mouse click: For instance this would allow you to play any of the web based games out there that you would normally use the mouse cursor to shoot with.  If this 'lightgun' could just act as a standard mouse click in the OS it would open up lots of options without needing specific integration with a particular program.

[Titchgamer]

As a generic mouse click: For instance this would allow you to play any of the web based games out there that you would normally use the mouse cursor to shoot with.  If this 'lightgun' could just act as a standard mouse click in the OS it would open up lots of options without needing specific integration with a particular program.

It emulates a standard mouse as far as I am aware so this should be standard but I will confirm

[SammyWI]

Awesome, thank you. 

P.S. More of a question for the dev than a test: Will this be available as a kit for the guts to mount in our own shell?

[Titchgamer]

Awesome, thank you. 

P.S. More of a question for the dev than a test: Will this be available as a kit for the guts to mount in our own shell?

I know he had considered this, Again I will ask no problem

[Howard_Casto]

Try something with small sprites like duck hunt or the tin can section of Hogan's alley.  Be sure to try it with the crosshairs off. 

[Titchgamer]

Try something with small sprites like duck hunt or the tin can section of Hogan's alley.  Be sure to try it with the crosshairs off. 

I know he has done a video with duck hunt before but I will try hogans alley for sure.

Here is a link to the duck hunt video btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=128&v=GhgzUVu-fHU

[opt2not]

Ask Sinden if he ever considered doing a bluetooth/wireless solution for his guns. Something un-tethered and better working than the AT would be incredible!

[Titchgamer]

Ask Sinden if he ever considered doing a bluetooth/wireless solution for his guns. Something un-tethered and better working than the AT would be incredible!

I certainly will

[MikeyJ122]

I've seen his videos. I'm interested in price and what the chances are it actually sees manufacturing.

[baritonomarchetto]

Let me ask: is this an open hardware or a commercial product?
I like open hardware and software sooo much

[Titchgamer]

I've seen his videos. I'm interested in price and what the chances are it actually sees manufacturing.

I think that will depend on the support and interest it can generate.
He tried to do a kick starter but made a few mistakes so it never got funded.

Let me ask: is this an open hardware or a commercial product?
I like open hardware and software sooo much

I will ask this, He seems pretty keen on building a community up behind it so it may become open in the future?

But I will check! Good q!

[BadMouth]

Most important thing is to move around and not hold it stationary while only pivoting the barrel.

Also simulate tall player, short player, etc standing in different spots with no recalibration in between.

[MikeyJ122]

I would also like your honest assessment with this gun vs aimtrack. Like I said, I watched a couple of his videos (even before I made the other thread here), so it was definitely on my radar.

I'm just worried about the possibility of it ever seeing the light of day. Do you know if he is willing to make guns for people by request (if it doesn't get supported). Which again that would depend on whether or not you think it's better than aimtrack (at least for me anyways). I'm trusting your opinion 👍

[Titchgamer]

Ok guys Andy has just left and there is sooo much info to try and convey!

So firstly I want to say thanks to Andy if he happends to read this for traveling over to my house and bringing his stuff for me to play with.
He has been here for around 5 hours and in that time it has been pretty much non stop light gun games!
As you will probably imagine my shoulders are killing and now physically and mentally tired so I am not going to even think about sorting through video footage at this time but I will do a quick write up of our findings, pro, cons etc.

So I will start with some of the basic questions that have been asked and that I myself had:

Distance from screen ratio: We have been unable to fully test this so no confirmed numbers at this time but initial tests would seem to indicate approx 1 1/2 times the screen size minimum.

Does it work on a CRT? YES! We managed to fully prove this today and video footage will follow!

Does it work on other emulators other than MAME? Yes!! Today we have been playing on MAME, Demul, Sega M2 and a few others.

Does it suffer any tracking loss at the edges of the screen? Yes and No.
This is something we have played with ALLOT throughout the day with me really being picky about it!
Directly in front of the TV regardless of height or position the Sinden lightgun tracks beautifully all around the outside edge of the screen and through the middle I could move around without issue. However standing at angles to the TV it does bring in some horizontal movement, Not as much as the AT's but its still there. Interestingly its more noticeable in the middle of the screen than the outside edges.
Andy accepts that this needs improving and thanked me for pointing this problem out and will now be working on his algorithm to improve this.

Do lights or reflections affect the Accuracy? I personally never witnessed any evidence of this, But Andy admits that during heavy sunlight etc this can be a problem due to the white out effect. But as I said this has not been a problem for us today with lights on or off, Near my glass display cabinet or with the conservatory door curtains being open.

Any Lag? Nope not that I noticed! There was lag with the cursor following my sights when I was doing tracking tests but in terms of actual shooting and the games no. Only some slow down of the actual games themselves on occasions but that is obviously another matter.

Will it be sold as a kit? At this time, No but more on that shortly....

Will it be wireless?  Andy hopes to make this a possibility in the future and believes it will be possible. However the investment for this would be substantial as all the processing is done via the PC at this time, So it would require some form of micro computer to be installed in the gun itself.

Recoil? Being looked into but not at this time.

Will it be a open source project? Not at this time no. Because of the time and financial investment he has currently put into this he obviously needs to make some money back from it (hence no kits yet) BUT his dream is to make this open source eventually and allow more people and devs to inprove the code, mount in their own guns, develop games for etc etc etc.

Price? - Currently unknown but he is aiming to produce this at as fairer price as possible to allow everyone to afford it.

Does it click like a mouse? Yes it emulates a mouse fully.

Will he be custom building them? Not at this time, He really wants to get this thing to market for everyone to be able to enjoy light gun games. He plans to launch a 2nd kick starter in the not so distant future but has learned from his mistakes and wants to get more content out there first, more people trying it, public showings etc etc.


So there is the answers to your Q's I hope.

Next the actual product, So Andy brought his original prototype with him to show me and the new one he has had custom built and designed.
He has asked me not to take any pics of his current prototype as he wants to reveal that as part of a big reveal himself but i can say its very nicely designed with some very cool features that I have never seen on any other light gun! It is lefty or righty friendly and feels very nice in the hand.

As you will recall from his original videos the gun requires a white defined edge border to work, He has developed a method of short cut keying this as a overlay so it will work for other emulators or with hyperspin etc. It is still a work in progress getting it to work fully but what I have seen of it today is good. It also is adjustable in the config program he has designed for it.
He explained to me that sometimes you need a thicker border for it to correctly work in say harsh light etc but the border used today for most of the games was quite thin and did not subtract from the experience. When we did run a thicker border it sometimes overlapped part of the game screen but this is again something he is working on to be able to window the game inside the border.

So how does it work? Well really damn well to be honest, Videos can not do this thing justice. There are some issues such as the horizontal movement when at angles and the over lap border but remember this is still in prototype development at the moment.
We found trying to video it "in action" was really damn difficult as when I had a camera infront of the sights I could not see wtf I was shooting at (had to guess) So I have some footage of that but it does not do it justice tbh.
I also have some tracking footage of taking a cursor around the screen however watching it back now I fecked up and forgot to move around! But as I stated earlier vertical movement has no effect just substantial horizontal movement like standing at 45 degrees to the TV etc.
Possibly one of the most impressive things about it is the calibration, Because it is calibrated to the white border you can literally plug it into any screen and it will be pretty much spot on! I was playing virtua cop on my 42" LCD and I was able to literally turn 90 degrees and continue playing on the tiny laptop screen to the side of me! Really was very impressed by that! So yeah dual screen shooting could be a thing! Not sure how that would be used yet but ya know devs....
Accuracy wise as I said above once calibrated as long as I stayed within the horizontal confines of my 42" screen I had no issues I could play point blank and I have not missed one of those 1 shot 1 target games at all today, Even the one with the camera mounted behind!
Needless to say the only time I have had a cross hair turned one is when I was doing the tracking experiments all the playing has been done without the crosshairs.

We took a screen capture of Sega sports shooting as well with me playing which I will post up once I have the energy.
I have never played this game before today (or even heard of it) But the accuracy required and the speed was substantial with small and large targets.
I will say now I sucked at it but we did jump straight in the deep end on master difficulty!
Again no cross hairs were used as you will see and I was approximately 100" away from my 42" screen while playing so it was very frantic but I think it really shows what the gun can do.

I admit now that we fecked up and didnt really start doing videos until we had been playing for around 4 hours by which time my arms feel like they were gunna fall off so my shooting started getting sloppier as we went on....

But yeah I will be happy to answer any Q's in the mean time until I get the videos up but this is a real thing guys, It works really well and with some interesting extra possibilities!.

It destroys the Aim traks in terms of accuracy and the features (Yup I just said that....)

Also Andy is a really really nice guy, He has a genuine love for light gun games and really knows his stuff.
He is literally improving on his software on a weekly basis and wants to make it work with everything from a Pi to the original hardware.
So I am really excited to see where this goes in the future because I think it could be really big.

I feel genuinely honored to of been considered for this sneak peak and asking my opinions (which he was very receptive of both positive and negative!)

Sorry I have been waffling for far to long now and will stop there haha.

Watch this space ppl.....

[MikeyJ122]

Sounds great!!! I want to buy one!!!

[Titchgamer]

Sounds great!!! I want to buy one!!!

Get in the que :p

[markc74]

Sounds very positive. I do like my aim traks even though they're nowhere near as accurate/easy to use as my act labs were (I was a fool for selling them) 

Is this not something he could get help from ultimarc/ggg from? Those guys must have some of the knowledge/backing that he needs to bring these to market?

[Titchgamer]

Sounds very positive. I do like my aim traks even though they're nowhere near as accurate/easy to use as my act labs were (I was a fool for selling them) 

Is this not something he could get help from ultimarc/ggg from? Those guys must have some of the knowledge/backing that he needs to bring these to market?

Yeah I really like my AT's (no secret there) But using the Sinden gun today really did blow them out of the water in terms of performance.
Playing the sega sports game the way I did would of been damn near impossible with the AT's I think due to the accuracy that was required over the distance. It was basically speed target shooting which I have not done for some time and made me realize how out of practice I am LMAO.
Admittedly I only got to play through that twice, Once just to see how the game worked and once I recorded the screen capture.
But also as I mentioned earlier my arms were like jelly by that point, I did a video of be playing point black with the cam strapped to my wrist, its a terrible video tbh but you can really see how much I was shaking by that point! I will prob post that up the next few days just for a laugh!

As for the other companys, Not sure, Guess its a case of how open they would be to a collaboration?

I just shoot them got no business skills LOL

[markc74]

If they're as good as you say they are then hopefully the next Kickstarter will get further. Just seems like he needs a fair amount of cash injection to get these thinks through prototyping and marketable. A good light gun that just works is probably the last remaining controller that hasn't been perfected so you would think it would do well. There's certainly a lot more light gun games then there are trackball/spinner and people seem willing to spend ££ on those.

I truly wish the guy well and hope he can pull if off. If it makes it to production then I'll buy one. Make it work with recoil and wireless and I'll empty my bank account.

[Howard_Casto]

Personally, I think to reduce cost and speed up release time I would be ok with just a pcb that we can put into a shell of our own choosing.  Making it wiimote-size would be best so all of those cheap wiimote gun shells could be put to good use.  As for recoil, an output line that could power a relay or ect.  would be fine with me.  Xinput, Force Feedback, even serial.... mamehooker supports it so the software end is already taken care of. 

[Titchgamer]

Yeah originally his kick starter included the money for development and production.
Obviously since then he has taken the development costs on himself.

The recoil thing although easy to do in terms of wiring and software in practice I think is quite difficult to pull it off well.

From my experience there are 3 basic types:

Rumble motor style
Blow back style
Solenoid style

Each have pros and cons but IMO the rumble motors are not really recoil, The blow back style have always been naff and prone to break.
The best feeling one is the solenoid but thats also the one that tends to suffer most from heat issues.

We had a pretty decent convo about it, And I got the impression that he really wants to include it but not at the expense of the product in general.
He also wants to make sure it feels right.

[BadMouth]

Arcadeguns.com had shells made for the Aim-Traks and sold them as complete guns before Ultimarc did.  They could probably be partnered with if he didn't want to worry with having shells manufactured.

If he does another Kickstarter, it needs to do a much better job showing how well the guns function.  Video of him sitting on a couch or screen capture of gameplay doesn't show the product working.

Does the bullet go exactly where the gun sights are pointed regardless of how tall/short the player is or whether they move a foot or two off center while playing?  That is the question.

The other question is if Ultimarc will release the more accurate dual sensor bar firmware they already sell for commercial use as soon as this gun hits the market?

[Titchgamer]

Arcadeguns.com had shells made for the Aim-Traks and sold them as complete guns before Ultimarc did.  They could probably be partnered with if he didn't want to worry with having shells manufactured.

If he does another Kickstarter, it needs to do a much better job showing how well the guns function.  Video of him sitting on a couch or screen capture of gameplay doesn't show the product working.

Does the bullet go exactly where the gun sights are pointed regardless of how tall/short the player is or whether they move a foot or two off center while playing?  That is the question.

He has made a custom design for the shells which is really good,  Like I said he wouldn't let me take any pics of that to show you guys yet as that is part of his big reveal but yeah its got some interesting features and its really comfy.

As for KS yeah he has learnt his lessons there, He is planning to do lots of videos showing different games in different environments etc.
We never had time to hook it up to a projector but he showed me a video he did with him playing on a very large projector screen (around 12ft wide not sure of the actual screen size) which was good.

Here is the quick one we did of it working on my CRT TV upstairs just to wet the appetite:


The gun shown in that video is his original prototype mounted into a GCON 45. His newest prototype is in the new custom shell and has a different camera lens which allows it to be used much close to the screen.
Just to clarify that was not being used as a min distance though, it was just comfortable to sit in that position when playing lol

But yeah as long as you stayed within the confines of the screen width the differing height was not a issue (He is very tall and I am very short lol) and we were swapping the gun between us and moving around a bit.
As I mentioned above when you went outside of the screen width (stood at 45 degrees to the TV) it did suffer some horizontal shifting, Only minor considering the size of the TV and the distance involved but it was noticeable.
He is going to work on improving his algorithm to improve on that.

When I get the screen capture edited and uploaded that will give you a good idea of how accurate it can be as some of the targets are very small.
Unfortunately by that time I was tired and making silly mistakes but it should give a good idea that the bullet was hitting where I was aiming (rightly or wrongly :p) I was also swapping hands and shuffling about allot to try and stop myself cramping up but you obv dont get to see that :p

I think Andy did start to record me on his phone at one point though while I was doing the screen grab so a video of that may emerge I dont know haha.

[SammyWI]

Glad to hear that it works well.  Looking forward to the vids and I'll probably end up backing the new kickstarter.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah originally his kick starter included the money for development and production.
Obviously since then he has taken the development costs on himself.

The recoil thing although easy to do in terms of wiring and software in practice I think is quite difficult to pull it off well.

From my experience there are 3 basic types:

Rumble motor style
Blow back style
Solenoid style

Each have pros and cons but IMO the rumble motors are not really recoil, The blow back style have always been naff and prone to break.
The best feeling one is the solenoid but thats also the one that tends to suffer most from heat issues.

We had a pretty decent convo about it, And I got the impression that he really wants to include it but not at the expense of the product in general.
He also wants to make sure it feels right.

Well what I meant was he could just give us an unpopulated output and then we could source a solenoid ourselves and install it.  Imho a solenoid is the only way to go as it's the only thing that would make the appropriate "thump" on pistol games while still being able to rapidly fire for games like operation wolf. 

[Titchgamer]

Yeah originally his kick starter included the money for development and production.
Obviously since then he has taken the development costs on himself.

The recoil thing although easy to do in terms of wiring and software in practice I think is quite difficult to pull it off well.

From my experience there are 3 basic types:

Rumble motor style
Blow back style
Solenoid style

Each have pros and cons but IMO the rumble motors are not really recoil, The blow back style have always been naff and prone to break.
The best feeling one is the solenoid but thats also the one that tends to suffer most from heat issues.

We had a pretty decent convo about it, And I got the impression that he really wants to include it but not at the expense of the product in general.
He also wants to make sure it feels right.

Well what I meant was he could just give us an unpopulated output and then we could source a solenoid ourselves and install it.  Imho a solenoid is the only way to go as it's the only thing that would make the appropriate "thump" on pistol games while still being able to rapidly fire for games like operation wolf.

Agree with you regarding the solenoid thing.

[Titchgamer]

Sorry guys my video editing sucks as much as my video making LOL

But here is the screen capture I promised, Again I was physically tired at this point so please excuse my poor performance but as you will see no crosshairs, small targets and good accuracy by the gun (not so much by the guy holding it lol)



And the tracking test, Again apologies I forgot to get up and move!

[Easybeatuk]

I am very interested in this as I am also a light gun nut as well and I've been on mission this year to pull together a list of every light gun game across every platform and test them out using Aimtrak's. The one thing I have noticed is a lack of extra buttons meaning access to a keyboard for credits, start etc, I managed to wire in a few more to make 7 on the Aimtrak but having them built in would be excellent. 5 covers nearly all the emulators with the basics and having 2 extra program specific buttons is very useful.
Fire
Reload
Credit
Start
Exit
Programmable
Programmable

Also I moved the position of the reload button on the Aimtrak back towards the trigger as opposed to the front, this is more inline with how I like to hold the gun and is similar to the Guncon 2.

Incidentally I've managed to find 560+ games (300 working) across around 30 platforms but I'll set up a separate topic on that later in the week.

[yo1dog]

Have to say that tracking looks incredibly delayed. Like 500ms+ delayed.

[Titchgamer]

Have to say that tracking looks incredibly delayed. Like 500ms+ delayed.

Yes the tracking is delayed visually but the shooting itself is not as far as I could tell playing fast games like point blank was fine.

One of the videos Andy posted had a crosshair he could not turn off and it was following his shots around the screen with a visual delay.

Something to do with the mouse speed settings in windows maybe?
Not sure.

[BadMouth]

Have to say that tracking looks incredibly delayed. Like 500ms+ delayed.

Yes the tracking is delayed visually but the shooting itself is not as far as I could tell playing fast games like point blank was fine.

One of the videos Andy posted had a crosshair he could not turn off and it was following his shots around the screen with a visual delay.

Something to do with the mouse speed settings in windows maybe?
Not sure.

If it was a positional gun game, it could be that the sensitivity in MAME's in game menu was left at the default.  Increasing the sensitivity gets rid of the lag on mounted potentiometer basee guns anyway.  The option isn't there for true light gun games, but there still might be a global setting somewhere affecting it.

Mouse settings in windows will also have an effect unless multimouse(raw input) is enabled.

[Titchgamer]

Have to say that tracking looks incredibly delayed. Like 500ms+ delayed.

Yes the tracking is delayed visually but the shooting itself is not as far as I could tell playing fast games like point blank was fine.

One of the videos Andy posted had a crosshair he could not turn off and it was following his shots around the screen with a visual delay.

Something to do with the mouse speed settings in windows maybe?
Not sure.

If it was a positional gun game, it could be that the sensitivity in MAME's in game menu was left at the default.  Increasing the sensitivity gets rid of the lag on mounted potentiometer basee guns anyway.  The option isn't there for true light gun games, but there still might be a global setting somewhere affecting it.

Mouse settings in windows will also have an effect unless multimouse(raw input) is enabled.

It was Point Blanks service menu that test was done on.
We never played any positional games tbh never even thought about them but as you say they take some pissing around to get working right!

My guess it was the mouse settings.

I will post up the point blank footage if you guys want but it did not come out well as you can only see the back of the gun and 2/3 of the screen lol.

[Zebra]

There is no light gun that has "blow back" as a recoil mechanism.Blow back is a firearms term that describes how some semi and full auto rifles cycle and chamber a round.

Airgun manufacturer like Cybergun (who made a few light guns too) use "blow-back" as a term to describe their models with simulated recoil. It doesn't describe to the type of recoil mechanism (which could be gas, motor or solenoid).

The 3rd option for recoil is a to use a motor (like the one used on Operation Wolf). I think this is the best option for full auto as they deliver continuous cycling without additional components or software.

I'd be ok with either a solenoid or a motor for recoil (if done well). I don't consider vibrating ones to be real recoil.

I would definately not buy any new light gun that did not have recoil, no matter what. If I don't get the arcade experience, I prefer not to play gun games at all.

I'm a little tired of these half finished products that make you fit your own solenoid, find your own PSU etc. I want one that is ready to use out the box with everything you need included.

[Titchgamer]

There is no light gun that has "blow back" as a recoil mechanism.Blow back is a firearms term that describes how some semi and full auto rifles cycle and chamber a round.

Airgun manufacturer like Cybergun (who made a few light guns too) use "blow-back" as a term to describe their models with simulated recoil. It doesn't describe to the type of recoil mechanism (which could be gas, motor or solenoid).

The 3rd option for recoil is a to use a motor (like the one used on Operation Wolf). I think this is the best option for full auto as they deliver continuous cycling without additional components or software.

I'd be ok with either a solenoid or a motor for recoil (if done well). I don't consider vibrating ones to be real recoil.

I would definately not buy any new light gun that did not have recoil, no matter what. If I don't get the arcade experience, I prefer not to play gun games at all.

I'm a little tired of these half finished products that make you fit your own solenoid, find your own PSU etc. I want one that is ready to use out the box with everything you need included.

And yet you know exactly the type of recoil even though it doesn’t exist lol

Obviously a light gun cant use the gas pressure to cycle the slide which does nothing at all....

However, Personally I would prefer a quality gun that tracks perfectly over one that has recoil and doesn’t.

Not all arcade gun games had recoil, Infact there are prob more that dont than do.

[baritonomarchetto]

A recoil is a second order feature ATM. When a good tracking method will be studied and implemented it will gain first order. This is something a prototipe with commercial will should take into account.
In my experience rumble is better than nothing and rise the driving experience to another level. It's not FF, but anyway...

[marioxb]

There is no light gun that has "blow back" as a recoil mechanism.Blow back is a firearms term that describes how some semi and full auto rifles cycle and chamber a round.

Airgun manufacturer like Cybergun (who made a few light guns too) use "blow-back" as a term to describe their models with simulated recoil. It doesn't describe to the type of recoil mechanism (which could be gas, motor or solenoid).

The 3rd option for recoil is a to use a motor (like the one used on Operation Wolf). I think this is the best option for full auto as they deliver continuous cycling without additional components or software.

I'd be ok with either a solenoid or a motor for recoil (if done well). I don't consider vibrating ones to be real recoil.

I would definately not buy any new light gun that did not have recoil, no matter what. If I don't get the arcade experience, I prefer not to play gun games at all.

I'm a little tired of these half finished products that make you fit your own solenoid, find your own PSU etc. I want one that is ready to use out the box with everything you need included.

And yet you know exactly the type of recoil even though it doesn’t exist lol

Obviously a light gun cant use the gas pressure to cycle the slide which does nothing at all....

However, Personally I would prefer a quality gun that tracks perfectly over one that has recoil and doesn’t.

Not all arcade gun games had recoil, Infact there are prob more that dont than do.

That's true, my favorite light gun games are the ones that don't have recoil. Lethal Enforcers and the Nintendo Vs games.

[Retro77]

I am very interested in this project too. I really want to add lightguns to my cab

[Titchgamer]

Pretty cool update regarding it working with the Pi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzyDJM6bkKg&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=6F-pvRgQMOHLigkT%3A6

[ZTylerDurden717]

Mr. Sinden is doing something that could blow the lid off the stigma of light guns on LCDs.

Based on that RPi video there's some delay in the shot.  Did you experience that in the non-Rpi test?

[Titchgamer]

Mr. Sinden is doing something that could blow the lid off the stigma of light guns on LCDs.

Based on that RPi video there's some delay in the shot.  Did you experience that in the non-Rpi test?

No noticeable lag while playing on a Laptop no.

[ZTylerDurden717]

That's amazing.

[TOMMYGUN]

If you contact Mr Sinden again make sure he produces a black gun, i hate the colored ones just because they are colored, now that sounds racist... but i want realism and black is also sleek looking, and i would want no recoil mech it makes to much sound and pulls you out the experience, and a silent trigger let the speakers make the sounds.
Very impressive project, let us know when the kickstarter starts, i might pre-order 2, very impressive 

[RandyT]

If you contact Mr Sinden again make sure he produces a black gun, i hate the colored ones just because they are colored, now that sounds racist... but i want realism and black is also sleek looking...

That would be the death knell for his product.  A number of states have instituted strict color requirements for "toy guns", and a few sellers have even been prosecuted with huge fines for non-compliance.  Meanwhile, BB and Pellet pistols can look absolutely identical to a .45 or .357 magnum.   

[opt2not]

If you contact Mr Sinden again make sure he produces a black gun, i hate the colored ones just because they are colored, now that sounds racist... but i want realism and black is also sleek looking...

That would be the death knell for his product.  A number of states have instituted strict color requirements for "toy guns", and a few sellers have even been prosecuted with huge fines for non-compliance.  Meanwhile, BB and Pellet pistols can look absolutely identical to a .45 or .357 magnum.   

But can BB and Pellet pistols be purchased by a minor?  Last I saw, those pistols are still locked up behind glass, or behind counters in most stores that sell them.

As much as I'd love to have a realistic looking light gun, I remember a traumatizing memory of when I was 15 and my friends and I were playing "guns" in the park. We had our toy guns that we spray painted black and looking pretty legit.  A police car was driving by and saw us with these guns, immediately stopped, the officer got out and drew his gun on us, yelling at us to drop our toy guns and get on the ground. 
We complied of course, pretty much shitting our pants at the time. After the officer "secured the scene", he looked at our toys and said to us "if you guys had raised these things when I was ordering you to drop them, I would have shot you".  I was 15!  I never played with realistic looking toy guns again. 

[BadMouth]

I have a pair of walther P99 replica wii guns purchased through amazon Germany.
Never got them working with my cab to my satisfaction.
They look cool, but feel chincy.

[Titchgamer]

Yeah its a legal nightmare the colour thing.
Though its not law over here most are now not black.

So I wouldn’t get your hopes up on that one but I would personally prefer black if a choice was given.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah its a legal nightmare the colour thing.
Though its not law over here most are now not black.

So I wouldn’t get your hopes up on that one but I would personally prefer black if a choice was given.

The reason there hasn't been a decent megatron figure in years is because of this.  Even the masterpiece line, which is clearly for adults, is required to have orange tips glued in all the barrels. 

[TOMMYGUN]

When i search lightguns in Google i see many black ones including Aimtrack, so it could be a possibility, who is realy going to check if a lightgun is black or red, and then issue fines..
Or they could advertise it differently find a loophole in the system, and sell it as replica's with usb cable 
Or they can sell it as a kit, with a little bottle of black car paint, or even Alclad chrome

[TimeCrisis]

if he focuses on full arcade recoil and turns it into a premium item in the £300+ range it would be good.

we should wait for the rasperri pi to emulate dreamcast and ps2 with mouse understanding so it works with the lightgun, if it works withuot the plugin hassle that would be great.

full support for 5:4 monitors with the pi should put it on the map for a dediated ligthgun arcade cabinet with some minor letterboxing, and can cover with bezel.

[Howard_Casto]

if he focuses on full arcade recoil and turns it into a premium item in the £300+ range it would be good.

No, no it wouldn't.   People are complaining that light gun solutions currently available are way too expensive.  If they ballooned to +300 virtually no one would buy them. 

[opt2not]

we should wait for the rasperri pi to emulate dreamcast and ps2 with mouse understanding so it works with the lightgun, if it works withuot the plugin hassle that would be great.

full support for 5:4 monitors with the pi should put it on the map for a dediated ligthgun arcade cabinet with some minor letterboxing, and can cover with bezel.

FYI, the raspberry Pi is slowly being phased out of the emulation scene (thank goodness!). It's going to be superseded by more powerful FPGA solutions like the Mister, which is built for emulation first and foremost, rather than the Pi that was originally created as a cheap desktop computer solution.

[RandyT]

But can BB and Pellet pistols be purchased by a minor?  Last I saw, those pistols are still locked up behind glass, or behind counters in most stores that sell them.

As much as I'd love to have a realistic looking light gun, I remember a traumatizing memory of when I was 15 and my friends and I were playing "guns" in the park. We had our toy guns that we spray painted black and looking pretty legit.  A police car was driving by and saw us with these guns, immediately stopped, the officer got out and drew his gun on us, yelling at us to drop our toy guns and get on the ground. 
We complied of course, pretty much shitting our pants at the time. After the officer "secured the scene", he looked at our toys and said to us "if you guys had raised these things when I was ordering you to drop them, I would have shot you".  I was 15!  I never played with realistic looking toy guns again. 

Doing something like that in a park isn't very smart anyway, but if the color of a toy is all that stands between cops drawing on kids, there's a much larger problem.  Also, you might need to be 18 to purchase a BB gun, but most of them are purchased for minors.  I had one since I was 10.

It's not even a matter of not being a minor, though.  If it's a "toy" (i.e. not real gun (Pellet, BB or other), or "replica" for a collector) it has to be defaced.  That includes "toys" purchased by non-minors.

[opt2not]

Doing something like that in a park isn't very smart anyway, but if the color of a toy is all that stands between cops drawing on kids, there's a much larger problem.  Also, you might need to be 18 to purchase a BB gun, but most of them are purchased for minors.  I had one since I was 10.

It's not even a matter of not being a minor, though.  If it's a "toy" (i.e. not real gun (Pellet, BB or other), or "replica" for a collector) it has to be defaced.  That includes "toys" purchased by non-minors.

Oh, totally, it was definitely not smart. But hey, we were dumb teens back then without a care in the world. Definitely learned our lesson.

[Titchgamer]

if he focuses on full arcade recoil and turns it into a premium item in the £300+ range it would be good.

No, no it wouldn't.   People are complaining that light gun solutions currently available are way too expensive.  If they ballooned to +300 virtually no one would buy them.

^ truth.

[lodoss118]

I disagree about the price being too expensive the aim traks with recoil x2 cost nearly £180, I have a usb2gun cost me (£320) and that thing was hard to setup and only works with happ guns, which I am not a fan off. I say if his product is easy to setup, and has extra features (already in case, recoil etc..), I am willing to pay around 200+ range for 2 guns

[Titchgamer]

I disagree about the price being too expensive the aim traks with recoil x2 cost nearly £180, I have a usb2gun cost me (£320) and that thing was hard to setup and only works with happ guns, which I am not a fan off. I say if his product is easy to setup, and has extra features (already in case, recoil etc..), I am willing to pay around 200+ range for 2 guns

£200 for 2 guns would be fine.

But not £300 each!

[Rockstead]

Titchgamer,

Could you ask Andy Sinden if he will consider retrofit kits for Aimtracks, I think it would be a smart move targeting an audience that are already light gun enthusiasts and have the equipment, it would be an easy sell in my opinion and he wouldn’t have to wait to manufacturer gun molds, packaging, etc.

[Titchgamer]

Titchgamer,

Could you ask Andy Sinden if he will consider retrofit kits for Aimtracks, I think it would be a smart move targeting an audience that are already light gun enthusiasts and have the equipment, it would be an easy sell in my opinion and he wouldn’t have to wait to manufacturer gun molds, packaging, etc.

Next time I get to talk to him I will ask for sure.

Must admit its something I never considered.

[Rockstead]

Titchgamer,

Could you ask Andy Sinden if he will consider retrofit kits for Aimtracks, I think it would be a smart move targeting an audience that are already light gun enthusiasts and have the equipment, it would be an easy sell in my opinion and he wouldn’t have to wait to manufacturer gun molds, packaging, etc.

Next time I get to talk to him I will ask for sure.

Must admit its something I never considered.

Cool, thanks.

Personally if I were him, that’s how I would test the waters before heavily investing.

[Titchgamer]

So Andy has released an official video with his updated prototype gun which I was previously not aloud to talk about :p



So as you will notice it now has weaver rails (for those who want to add red dots etc if you are into that sort of thing!)

He has also added a pump action switch and some side buttons.

I think there will be one more revision of this before he re-launches the kick starter which he plans to do in march I believe.

The gun itself is really comfy and well balanced my only real negative comment about it was the distance between the rear sights but that is one of the amendments he plans to make I think.

[SammyWI]

Looking nice.  I see what you mean about the rear sight - that notch is gigantic!  I still want to pull it apart and make my own shell (or shells) for a more realistic trigger, etc.  But that looks nice enough that I'll want to keep one stock for easy use, friends, etc.  Cost permitting of course.

[Titchgamer]

Looking nice.  I see what you mean about the rear sight - that notch is gigantic!  I still want to pull it apart and make my own shell (or shells) for a more realistic trigger, etc.  But that looks nice enough that I'll want to keep one stock for easy use, friends, etc.  Cost permitting of course.

Yeah its pretty large lol
Still useable though, I also suggested he 2 toned the front and rear sight to make for better viewing.

But yeah its a really well designed and balanced gun otherwise.
Very comfy to hold and the pump action works really well.

[argonlefou]

Looks good  

[Trnzaddict]

I would definitely get rid of my Aimtraks for these. Seems like there is much less cursor lag, the elimination of the light bar is great too, no more calibration issues.

How far back do you have to be from the screen? That is the one thing I so miss with CRT light guns (and the only way I ever beat Gangster Town for the Sega Master System as a kid), you could be a few inches from the screen and they are still dead on.

[RandyT]

It looks promising, but the demos still seem like the gun is being handled in a somewhat "rigid" pose.  Maybe that's just his play style, but it kind of sends the message that performance will not be the same if the gun loses it's points of reference between shots, or if it's not held perfectly vertical.

The other thing I don't quite understand is why the necessity for the border.  There would be literally no difference between doing things this way, and placing an IR LED marker at somewhere close to each corner of the screen and storing a calibration value.  A line between two points of reference is still a line, whether or not it's visible to the player.  The only possible benefit would be the ability to track closer to the screen, if (and only if) the code was very adept at tracking a partiality of the reference, but at the distance it is being demoed, this doesn't seem to be the case?

Unless this gun is absolutely perfect (something of which I am a bit skeptical) the demos are showing some cherry-picked footage, which makes it difficult to truly assess it's real-world performance.  Demonstrated failures are often more telling than just the successes.

[Titchgamer]

Think I covered the hold and movement things above Randy.

As for the border well its easier applying a border to a window than it is to install LEDs etc which is one of the main disadvantages of all other solutions out there.
I suspect it is also used to help with the algorithm for working out the shot placement when you are stood at angles to the TV which again is a problem with existing solutions but that is only my assumption :p

We both know there is no such thing as perfect, Even the original CRT guns had their little problems and quirks but this is the nearest I have used to Arcade quality guns on a LCD.


As for the distance thing no you wont be able to get right up to the TV sorry :p

Basically it depends on the screen size how far back you need to be.
The camera needs to be able to see the border at all times to work properly so the bigger the screen the further back you will have to be.
Obviously 4:3 screens will have a advantage over 16:9 in that respect.

[Mike A]

I would take what titch says at face value. It looks like this guy has a viable light gun. Whether or not he can turn it into a viable product is a completely different subject.

[Titchgamer]

I would take what titch says at face value. It looks like this guy has a viable light gun. Whether or not he can turn it into a viable product is a completely different subject.

Yup, I really hope he manages to pull this off 2nd time round as I would love to get a pair of these!

I know he is intending to relaunch the KS in March and he has more exciting news coming out shortly that will seriously interest some people.

But I am again not aloud to speak about it so sorry about that!
But its worth the wait!!

[TOMMYGUN]

There is usb power going to the thing, how about having very dim green leds in the sights like these phosphor sights.

[Titchgamer]

There is usb power going to the thing, how about having very dim green leds in the sights like these phosphor sights.

Thats what I was thinking when I suggested it to him.

No idea if the LED’s would be plausible but pretty cool and doable.

[Mike A]

Just use glow in the dark paint. Or leave indents and people can paint the dots themselves. Simple. Cheap. Easy.

[Titchgamer]

Just use glow in the dark paint. Or leave indents and people can paint the dots themselves. Simple. Cheap. Easy.

Thats what I did on my paintball pistol!
Worked great haha

[TOMMYGUN]

Just use glow in the dark paint. Or leave indents and people can paint the dots themselves. Simple. Cheap. Easy.

In a dark room it only lasts a few minutes, leds keep burning, he could make hollow sights pained white or green inside with a dim led underneath it, just thinking

[RandyT]

I would take what titch says at face value. It looks like this guy has a viable light gun.

Not in dispute.  The comment was made with regard to what thoughts the manner of the demos might invoke in a potential customer.

The comment regarding IR markers was made as a veiled suggestion that, for those who might find the frame offensive, the addition of an option to use IR markers might be worth implementing.  The code base shouldn't need to be changed much, given that the gun seems to need to see the entire screen anyway.  Of course, there could be a patent issue or processor speed limitations standing in the way of that, so there could be reasons for not doing it.

I also wouldn't worry much about accuracy issues presenting at extreme angles.  The only time someone wouldn't be pretty darn close to the center of the screen, would be a 2-player simultaneous shooter.

[Titchgamer]

I agree the angle thing is a bit daft.

I always sit central to the screen because well thats what you are supposed to do!

But people like to be able to move around etc and this does give that option.

I also think his 3D movement concept is very cool. Imagine being able to play Time Crisis (well a similar game!) where you physically moved to duck in and out of cover?
It would be like a VR FPS with no headset.

I think that would be awesome but thats a bit of a way off atm I think.

[RandyT]

I also think his 3D movement concept is very cool. Imagine being able to play Time Crisis (well a similar game!) where you physically moved to duck in and out of cover?
It would be like a VR FPS with no headset.

I think that would be awesome but thats a bit of a way off atm I think.

Not sure that this really makes sense in practice.  While it makes for an interesting tech demo, I'm struggling to find a practical scenario when the camera is on the end of the gun.  Now, add a headband unit, and you might have something.

[SammyWI]

I agree the angle thing is a bit daft.

I always sit central to the screen because well thats what you are supposed to do!

But people like to be able to move around etc and this does give that option.

I also think his 3D movement concept is very cool. Imagine being able to play Time Crisis (well a similar game!) where you physically moved to duck in and out of cover?
It would be like a VR FPS with no headset.

I think that would be awesome but thats a bit of a way off atm I think.

This would be useful for a firearms training simulator rather than a pure game. 

[Titchgamer]

I disagree, Think time crisis....

The game is purely ducking in and out of cover while shooting.

Imagine instead of hitting a floor switch or a side button you could physically lean/step out or duck.

It would be a hell of a work out. Be a bit like a Wii game really!

[BadMouth]

I would definitely get rid of my Aimtraks for these. Seems like there is much less cursor lag, the elimination of the light bar is great too, no more calibration issues.

I'm not a fan of AimTraks (or any home IR gun), but any lag is probably the result of not adjusting sensitivity properly in MAME.
It's in the in game menu under analog.  Increase it until the cursor no longer lags.  Has to be done individually for every game.

Not sure if it affects guns showing up as mice, but also make sure the saturation is set to 1 (100%) and deadzone is zero or close to zero in mame.ini
Can't hurt.


As far as the Sinden gun goes;
I like the pump action.
The video footage looking down the barrel (which I keep asking for) shows only very slow and narrow movements.
Make a camera mount and get some gameplay footage down the barrel showing that the bullets are going where the gun is aimed while it is whipped around the screen.

Don't make me post my old Act Labs gameplay vid for the tenth time.....
too late.  Here is how much the gun should move around when playing light gun games properly. 

[lettuce]

Wonder how this will stack up to the Hyperkin Zapper

[Titchgamer]

I would definitely get rid of my Aimtraks for these. Seems like there is much less cursor lag, the elimination of the light bar is great too, no more calibration issues.

I'm not a fan of AimTraks (or any home IR gun), but any lag is probably the result of not adjusting sensitivity properly in MAME.
It's in the in game menu under analog.  Increase it until the cursor no longer lags.  Has to be done individually for every game.

Not sure if it affects guns showing up as mice, but also make sure the saturation is set to 1 (100%) and deadzone is zero or close to zero in mame.ini
Can't hurt.


As far as the Sinden gun goes;
I like the pump action.
The video footage looking down the barrel (which I keep asking for) shows only very slow and narrow movements.
Make a camera mount and get some gameplay footage down the barrel showing that the bullets are going where the gun is aimed while it is whipped around the screen.

Don't make me post my old Act Labs gameplay vid for the tenth time.....
too late.  Here is how much the gun should move around when playing light gun games properly. 

I only have one such video but it came out horribly.

I couldnt multi task enough to hold the camera, aim and shoot at the same time but if you really want to see how much the gun had to be moved on my TV to play these games I will upload it.

I didnt hit hardly anything due to the aforementioned problems.

That being said if you watch the previous videos I posted (the screen cap and the tracking test) you would be able to appreciate how much “whipping around” as you put it was required to play.

And that sports gun game requires lots of accuracy believe me!!

[Zebra]

I disagree about the price being too expensive the aim traks with recoil x2 cost nearly £180, I have a usb2gun cost me (£320) and that thing was hard to setup and only works with happ guns, which I am not a fan off. I say if his product is easy to setup, and has extra features (already in case, recoil etc..), I am willing to pay around 200+ range for 2 guns

No, no it wouldn't.   People are complaining that light gun solutions currently available are way too expensive.  If they ballooned to +300 virtually no one would buy them.
[/quote]

I also disagree (a little bit). My local Best Buy is selling $400 racing wheels for the PC, PS4 and One, so there is clearly a market for genuinely high quality gaming peripherals. There are also VR guns selling for up to $1000.

The main issue with the $100 price tag on an Aimtrak is that they are not very good. It's a $30 product at best. They are made with thin plastic. They lack a decent recoil option and they only come with one sensor bar, so they lack the line of sight accuracy they claim to have.

I would pay $250 or maybe even $300 for a genuinely arcade quality light gun as long as it was good enough to be the last light gun I would ever need. It would need to work for all my current systems and have proper (signed) driver support. It would need to be as accurate as the TC4 arcade gun (10 sensors) and the shell would need to be made of thick plastic like in the arcades. It would also need reliable full auto and semi auto recoil with a metal mechanism. No plastic gears etc. any lenses should be glass.

For extra points to seal the deal, I'd like to see (finished) software support to do what Mame hooker does but without asking people to write code. No consumer product should ever require users to solder or program.

What we absolutely don't need is more of the same. We have EMS Topguns, Aimtraks, PS Moves and Wii remotes and for the most part, we don't like them.

[Titchgamer]

Some more cool developments!
PS1 games on a Pi!



There seems to be a bit of lag on some of the games but I am not really surprised by that given the power of the Pi and the demands of PS1 emulation.

Maybe some overclocking of the Pi would help but its a pretty cool proof of concept between it working with MAME and PS1 thats a hell of allot of light gun games!!

[ark_ader]

Some more cool developments!
PS1 games on a Pi!



There seems to be a bit of lag on some of the games but I am not really surprised by that given the power of the Pi and the demands of PS1 emulation.

Maybe some overclocking of the Pi would help but its a pretty cool proof of concept between it working with MAME and PS1 thats a hell of allot of light gun games!!

Sorry for tipping the apple cart over, but why not just use the wii mote?

https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroPie/comments/9128rv/wii_remote_as_lightgun/

[Titchgamer]

Some more cool developments!
PS1 games on a Pi!



There seems to be a bit of lag on some of the games but I am not really surprised by that given the power of the Pi and the demands of PS1 emulation.

Maybe some overclocking of the Pi would help but its a pretty cool proof of concept between it working with MAME and PS1 thats a hell of allot of light gun games!!

Sorry for tipping the apple cart over, but why not just use the wii mote?

https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroPie/comments/9128rv/wii_remote_as_lightgun/

Coz its pants?

[Zebra]

In my experience, the Wii remote is the worst of all the home IR "guns". Then the Aimtrak, then the PS Move and the Guncon 3 is the best home IR gun I have tried.

I only rate the Move above the Aimtrak because it is not sensative to tilt issues but it still sucks.

The Guncon 3 is the only IR gun I own that is accurate enough to aim line of sight (just).

I haven't tried a Topgun 3 but my understand is that they are great.... for around 3 minutes before they break. Plus... they are let down by poor driver support... or something.

[Titchgamer]

In my experience, the Wii remote is the worst of all the home IR "guns". Then the Aimtrak, then the PS Move and the Guncon 3 is the best home IR gun I have tried.

I only rate the Move above the Aimtrak because it is not sensative to tilt issues but it still sucks.

The Guncon 3 is the only IR gun I own that is accurate enough to aim line of sight (just).

I haven't tried a Topgun 3 but my understand is that they are great.... for around 3 minutes before they break. Plus... they are let down by poor driver support... or something.

Not tried a guncon 3.

But the topguns are terrible!

But as for the move being better than the aim traks, Really!?

[markc74]

I've not not tried the guncons but aim traks are the best of the available all purpose (crt/lcd) I've tried. Top guns were way less accurate and I got rid of them quickly. Best CRT guns were the act labs ones and I'm gutted I got rid of mine. Move/Wii controls are not the same thing at all so cant be compared.

Back to topic: I'm liking the looks of this gun a lot but like others I'd really like to see a video with lots of quick movement as close to the screen as is possible (ie a cab situation). I think the reload function looks good but I prefer to shoot my enemies with my hand resting on my hip classic 1880 duel style so be good if there's a reload that doesn't involve holding the gun with 2 hands like in the last vids.

[Howard_Casto]

The wiimote is kinda crappy on the pc mostly due to software.  I'm trying to fix that, but like usual I got distracted.  If you guys can keep reminding me maybe I can try to release something with some actual calibration options sometime next week... at least enough for a test. 

Sadly lag is going to be an issue with any gun that relies on some sort of image processing because processing an image takes time (duh).  It can be greatly reduced with efficient coding though. 

[Titchgamer]

I've not not tried the guncons but aim traks are the best of the available all purpose (crt/lcd) I've tried. Top guns were way less accurate and I got rid of them quickly. Best CRT guns were the act labs ones and I'm gutted I got rid of mine. Move/Wii controls are not the same thing at all so cant be compared.

Back to topic: I'm liking the looks of this gun a lot but like others I'd really like to see a video with lots of quick movement as close to the screen as is possible (ie a cab situation). I think the reload function looks good but I prefer to shoot my enemies with my hand resting on my hip classic 1880 duel style so be good if there's a reload that doesn't involve holding the gun with 2 hands like in the last vids.

The reload thing can be set in mame so either shoot off screen or use the pump handle/side buttons totally customisable.
Nice to have options

As for the fast movements as I keep saying (repeatedly!) Look at the videos of point blank or the sports gun video I posted those are about as fast as you will get!

You can not get right up to the screen like you would with a CRT light gun its just not possible.
And the ability to literally touch a target with the muzzle of the gun does not make it accurate.
You dont target shoot with your gun touching the target do you?
Its done at a distance.

[Titchgamer]

Also just to add....

If I play my A51 cab my arm movement across the 21” screen corner to corner is around 21”.
Prob a little less to be realistic but lets stick with 21”.

Now when I was playing sportsgun on my 47” wide screen LCD I was probably moving around 18” corner to corner.

Of course these distances can increase slightly if you get closer but it does not really prove anything by doing so.

The main question is does it shoot where you are pointing it and the short answer is yes it does.

[markc74]

I just like to see the whites of their eyes 

I'll check out that vid.

There was a thing a while ago (about a different gun) using fish eye lenses to decrease distance. Is that something that could be possible here? If its software driven I'm guessing anythings possible but curious if it would work

[ark_ader]

I just like to see the whites of their eyes 

I'll check out that vid.

There was a thing a while ago using fish eye lenses to decrease distance. Is that something that could be possible here? If its software driven I'm guessing anythings possible but curious if it would work

Not sure if that would be a good idea but it would have helped Marty out I guess....

[Titchgamer]

I just like to see the whites of their eyes 

I'll check out that vid.

There was a thing a while ago (about a different gun) using fish eye lenses to decrease distance. Is that something that could be possible here? If its software driven I'm guessing anythings possible but curious if it would work

Yes it would be possible to use a wide angle lens in theory but I would guess it likely to cause other issues.

I think the camera/lens he is using atm is pretty wide anyway but you still would not be able to get super close as for it to shoot it needs to see the whole screen to work.

So yeah no seeing the whites of their eyes unless you have eagle vision lol

[SammyWI]

Also just to add....

If I play my A51 cab my arm movement across the 21” screen corner to corner is around 21”.
Prob a little less to be realistic but lets stick with 21”.

Now when I was playing sportsgun on my 47” wide screen LCD I was probably moving around 18” corner to corner.

Of course these distances can increase slightly if you get closer but it does not really prove anything by doing so.

The main question is does it shoot where you are pointing it and the short answer is yes it does.

That's pretty much all I'm looking for.  I really don't get the desire to get super close to the screen but different strokes and all, I guess.  I really hope it will work on a projector screen at a reasonable distance (8 to 10 feet from a 7 foot screen or so).  So bring on the Kickstarter!

[Titchgamer]

Also just to add....

If I play my A51 cab my arm movement across the 21” screen corner to corner is around 21”.
Prob a little less to be realistic but lets stick with 21”.

Now when I was playing sportsgun on my 47” wide screen LCD I was probably moving around 18” corner to corner.

Of course these distances can increase slightly if you get closer but it does not really prove anything by doing so.

The main question is does it shoot where you are pointing it and the short answer is yes it does.

That's pretty much all I'm looking for.  I really don't get the desire to get super close to the screen but different strokes and all, I guess.  I really hope it will work on a projector screen at a reasonable distance (8 to 10 feet from a 7 foot screen or so).  So bring on the Kickstarter!

Well it defo works with a projector!
No idea of distance though :p

[thet0ast3r]

I just like to see the whites of their eyes 

I'll check out that vid.

There was a thing a while ago (about a different gun) using fish eye lenses to decrease distance. Is that something that could be possible here? If its software driven I'm guessing anythings possible but curious if it would work

Well it *should* definetly work with a wide angle lens. The question is how robust, flexible and performant the software is written. It should be no problem to get rid of the lens distortion. Accuracy *should* not be a problem. If its possible to correct for lens distortion and detect the screen in realtime; thats another story. Detection time also adds to the input lag. Best case andy uses a 60 fps camera: 16,67 ms delay + processing and displaying. It`s gonna add up, hopefully not too much.

[Zebra]

In my experience, the Wii remote is the worst of all the home IR "guns". Then the Aimtrak, then the PS Move and the Guncon 3 is the best home IR gun I have tried.

I only rate the Move above the Aimtrak because it is not sensative to tilt issues but it still sucks.

The Guncon 3 is the only IR gun I own that is accurate enough to aim line of sight (just).

I haven't tried a Topgun 3 but my understand is that they are great.... for around 3 minutes before they break. Plus... they are let down by poor driver support... or something.

Not tried a guncon 3.

But the topguns are terrible!

But as for the move being better than the aim traks, Really!?

Yes. I have all of them. It's close as both suck for the same reason but the move has a slight advantage as the crosshairs don't jump when you tilt the gun.

The Guncon 3 is a noticeable step up over all the others. You can play TC4 with no visible crosshairs on-screen (like the arcade) as it is (just) accurate enough for line of sight. For games like Razing Storm where the crosshairs are on-screen, the GC3 has noticeably less lag.

It's a mute point currently though as there are only 3 games that can use a GC3. Someone started writing PC drivers to use it with mame a while ago. I'd like someone to finish them at some point if nobody is ever going to release a decent PC gun.

For now, the GC2 with a crt is the only acceptible way to play light gun games on a PC. I have my GC2 converted recoil gun for light guns games and a pair of fixed directional guns for the rest.

[Titchgamer]

In my experience, the Wii remote is the worst of all the home IR "guns". Then the Aimtrak, then the PS Move and the Guncon 3 is the best home IR gun I have tried.

I only rate the Move above the Aimtrak because it is not sensative to tilt issues but it still sucks.

The Guncon 3 is the only IR gun I own that is accurate enough to aim line of sight (just).

I haven't tried a Topgun 3 but my understand is that they are great.... for around 3 minutes before they break. Plus... they are let down by poor driver support... or something.

Not tried a guncon 3.

But the topguns are terrible!

But as for the move being better than the aim traks, Really!?

Yes. I have all of them. It's close as both suck for the same reason but the move has a slight advantage as the crosshairs don't jump when you tilt the gun.

The Guncon 3 is a noticeable step up over all the others. You can play TC4 with no visible crosshairs on-screen (like the arcade) as it is (just) accurate enough for line of sight. For games like Razing Storm where the crosshairs are on-screen, the GC3 has noticeably less lag.

It's a mute point currently though as there are only 3 games that can use a GC3. Someone started writing PC drivers to use it with mame a while ago. I'd like someone to finish them at some point if nobody is ever going to release a decent PC gun.

For now, the GC2 with a crt is the only acceptible way to play light gun games on a PC. I have my GC2 converted recoil gun for light guns games and a pair of fixed directional guns for the rest.

Simple solution is not to tilt the gun gangsta! :p

I only ever play with the gun held normally so never experienced this jumping you describe for the AT but as the move is basically just a colour tracker I am surprised to hear it jumps if its rotated??

[Zebra]

It is virtually impossible to hold the gun completely straight when playing. There is no solution except put the Aimtrak in the trash.

The tilt issue is far from the main problem with them. They are not accurate. They are not well made. They feel cheap and are no fun to use. They have too few sensors so all the calibration in the world will not help. The lag is terrible.

For directional gun games with a crosshairs on screen, you are better off with a real arcade gun plus an Apac. For light gun games, a Guncon 2 is $15 on eBay and is unrivaled for accuracy for home light guns.

[Titchgamer]

It is virtually impossible to hold the gun completely straight when playing. There is no solution except put the Aimtrak in the trash.

The tilt issue is far from the main problem with them. They are not accurate. They are not well made. They feel cheap and are no fun to use. They have too few sensors so all the calibration in the world will not help. The lag is terrible.

For directional gun games with a crosshairs on screen, you are better off with a real arcade gun plus an Apac. For light gun games, a Guncon 2 is $15 on eBay and is unrivaled for accuracy for home light guns.

Cant say I have those issues.

The plastic they are made from is not the best though I agree there.

Mine hold their calibration fine and suffer no noticeable lag except in games which lag themselves but thats not the guns fault.

The only time I ever have any real problems is with heavy sunlight but thats a easy fix.

They are the best LCD guns I have used with the exception of the Sinden one but obv thats not released yet and was still a prototype when I used it last.

As for the GC2 its probably the finest lightgun ever made for home use and I still have 2 for my PS2 but of course I need the CRT to....

[BadMouth]

That's pretty much all I'm looking for.  I really don't get the desire to get super close to the screen but different strokes and all, I guess.  I really hope it will work on a projector screen at a reasonable distance (8 to 10 feet from a 7 foot screen or so).  So bring on the Kickstarter!

Standing 8-10ft from a 7ft screen would pretty much be the same as standing 2.5-3ft from a 24"(4:3 ratio) screen.
This is about the range people are asking for IMO. 
My cab has 5ft of open space in front of it.  By the time extend my arm, there is only 2-2.5ft left between the gun and the screen.

The gameplay video I posed above was on my old setup.  The gun is about 36" away from a 32" CRT TV.
I could have stood as far back as I wanted, but that is what felt right based on arcade experience.

[ark_ader]

It is virtually impossible to hold the gun completely straight when playing. There is no solution except put the Aimtrak in the trash.

The tilt issue is far from the main problem with them. They are not accurate. They are not well made. They feel cheap and are no fun to use. They have too few sensors so all the calibration in the world will not help. The lag is terrible.

For directional gun games with a crosshairs on screen, you are better off with a real arcade gun plus an Apac. For light gun games, a Guncon 2 is $15 on eBay and is unrivaled for accuracy for home light guns.

Other than the software drivers issue, my LCD Topguns work pretty well in nearly all applications, including my old modded Xbox, and the Cronus for PS3, (et al.) and everything else.  I have recoil (great for 2 minutes) and the LED tracking is superb.  The emitters are a bit untidy but there are other solutions.  Nothing like playing House of the Dead on a 100" projector wall, or on the side of a garage.  I can also take them out with me to the liquor store if I wanted to be killed by the police.  Yeah they look that real. 

Far superior to the Aimtrak in every way.

[SammyWI]

That's pretty much all I'm looking for.  I really don't get the desire to get super close to the screen but different strokes and all, I guess.  I really hope it will work on a projector screen at a reasonable distance (8 to 10 feet from a 7 foot screen or so).  So bring on the Kickstarter!

Standing 8-10ft from a 7ft screen would pretty much be the same as standing 2.5-3ft from a 24"(4:3 ratio) screen.
This is about the range people are asking for IMO. 
My cab has 5ft of open space in front of it.  By the time extend my arm, there is only 2-2.5ft left between the gun and the screen.

The gameplay video I posed above was on my old setup.  The gun is about 36" away from a 32" CRT TV.
I could have stood as far back as I wanted, but that is what felt right based on arcade experience.

I may have been reading a bit too much into some of the back and forth here along with some of the talk about a wide angle lens.  At the size to distance ratio I posted a standard web cam has no problem seeing the entire screen (and could be a bit closer).  Although that's pointed at center of screen, so when pointed at the screen edge it may need a wider angle lens or software that can work with a partial screen view.

[Zebra]

It is virtually impossible to hold the gun completely straight when playing. There is no solution except put the Aimtrak in the trash.

The tilt issue is far from the main problem with them. They are not accurate. They are not well made. They feel cheap and are no fun to use. They have too few sensors so all the calibration in the world will not help. The lag is terrible.

For directional gun games with a crosshairs on screen, you are better off with a real arcade gun plus an Apac. For light gun games, a Guncon 2 is $15 on eBay and is unrivaled for accuracy for home light guns.

Other than the software drivers issue, my LCD Topguns work pretty well in nearly all applications, including my old modded Xbox, and the Cronus for PS3, (et al.) and everything else.  I have recoil (great for 2 minutes) and the LED tracking is superb.  The emitters are a bit untidy but there are other solutions.  Nothing like playing House of the Dead on a 100" projector wall, or on the side of a garage.  I can also take them out with me to the liquor store if I wanted to be killed by the police.  Yeah they look that real. 

Far superior to the Aimtrak in every way.

Thanks for the Topgun info. I wondered about them because they were designed to be used for games like Time Crisis 2 and 3 with no crosshairs on screen. They have four sensors which is more than any home IR gun so they seem like they had potential. Still not the 10 you get on arcade IR guns but better an Aimtrak or Wii remote.

From reading the very mixed reviews, it seems like they are good if you get a working one but at least 50% of the reviews said they broke quickly (within a week) or never worked at all. So... it's a bit of a gamble. Sounds like you got a good one.

My bet is that a large portion of the technical issues were related to those poor drivers and associated user error. Apparently they required windows to be in test mode like CRT EMU drivers. That alone is enough to confuse 99% of the world...

[Titchgamer]

I still have a topgun 2 in the loft and although its not broken it would never hold calibration.

Sure as hell couldn’t use it without crosshairs anyway!

I tried flogging it a while back but nobody wanted it funnily enough lol

[Zebra]

I still have a topgun 2 in the loft and although its not broken it would never hold calibration.

Sure as hell couldn’t use it without crosshairs anyway!

I tried flogging it a while back but nobody wanted it funnily enough lol

Um.... that sounds broken to me...

[Zebra]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know enough about IR guns to say if it is possible to add more sensors to an Aimtrak?

I.e., could you wire a bunch of extra LED boards into the main sensor and position them all around the screen like in Arcade cabs, or.... would you need to rewrite the drivers to make it recognize a greater number of sensors and sensors positioned on the Y axis?

It doesn't seem to require different drivers when you use the super long IR bar.

[Titchgamer]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know enough about IR guns to say if it is possible to add more sensors to an Aimtrak?

I.e., could you wire a bunch of extra LED boards into the main sensor and position them all around the screen like in Arcade cabs, or.... would you need to rewrite the drivers to make it recognize a greater number of sensors and sensors positioned on the Y axis?

It doesn't seem to require different drivers when you use the super long IR bar.

The AT sensor is angled upwards not straight so It wouldn’t help if they were bellow the screen.

[BadMouth]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know enough about IR guns to say if it is possible to add more sensors to an Aimtrak?

I.e., could you wire a bunch of extra LED boards into the main sensor and position them all around the screen like in Arcade cabs, or.... would you need to rewrite the drivers to make it recognize a greater number of sensors and sensors positioned on the Y axis?

It doesn't seem to require different drivers when you use the super long IR bar.

Andy from Ultimarc has commented that he sells a commercial version with more IR LEDs.  IIRC it was 4 LEDs and the normal aim-traks with different firmware. So it is possible.  What wasn't said was how much it costs to get that other firmware and how good the results are.

[Zebra]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know enough about IR guns to say if it is possible to add more sensors to an Aimtrak?

I.e., could you wire a bunch of extra LED boards into the main sensor and position them all around the screen like in Arcade cabs, or.... would you need to rewrite the drivers to make it recognize a greater number of sensors and sensors positioned on the Y axis?

It doesn't seem to require different drivers when you use the super long IR bar.

Andy from Ultimarc has commented that he sells a commercial version with more IR LEDs.  IIRC it was 4 LEDs and the normal aim-traks with different firmware. So it is possible.  What wasn't said was how much it costs to get that other firmware and how good the results are.

You sure he wasn't talking about their "super wide" IR bars?

It's hard to believe that he has a better product available but he doesn't offer it for sale or any info on it on his site... who would he be selling these commercial versions to? I am fairly sure that no arcade game makers are using Aimtraks in their cabs. If not for arcades, what commercial use could there be?

[Zebra]

Watching this review of the Topgun 3, it looks like it works fairly well on the PS2 and Xbox with games that were designed for real light guns. It's the PC performance that seems to let them down:



As they have a Guncon 2 mode, I wonder if they would work better with the Wingun (Guncon 2 windows drivers)?

I'm just glad I stocked up on CRT monitors. I don't have the patience to deal with all the IR gun issues. Even the very best arcade CCD gun is no match for official Guncon 2.

[SammyWI]

.... I really hope it will work on a projector screen at a reasonable distance (8 to 10 feet from a 7 foot screen or so).  So bring on the Kickstarter!

Well someone seems to be listening.

Virtua Cop on giant projector screen - Sinden Lightgun

[Mike A]

Now I am interested.

[Titchgamer]

Did I not mention the projector before??

Yes fully working on a projector lol

And CRT but I know i defo mentioned that before!!

[Mike A]

I still won't contribute to a Kickstarter. If a viable product comes to market I will definitely be interested.

[SammyWI]

Did I not mention the projector before??

Yes fully working on a projector lol

And CRT but I know i defo mentioned that before!!

Yes you did. I just found it amusing that video came out shortly after my comment.

[Titchgamer]

Did I not mention the projector before??

Yes fully working on a projector lol

And CRT but I know i defo mentioned that before!!

Yes you did. I just found it amusing that video came out shortly after my comment.

Ohh thought it would be odd of me to of missed that :p

[ZTylerDurden717]

.... I really hope it will work on a projector screen at a reasonable distance (8 to 10 feet from a 7 foot screen or so).  So bring on the Kickstarter!

Well someone seems to be listening.

Virtua Cop on giant projector screen - Sinden Lightgun

Take.  My.  Money.

[Zebra]

Playing on a large screen is awesome for shooting games (and driving games and flying games).

This is a video of me playing Alien 3 the gun on a 110" screen with the real arcade recoil gun:



The large screen definately makes it feel more immersive and the lag free fixed gun is a joy to use.

The main thing for a new light gun tech (that I might buy) is that it is not limited by distance or screen size. I don't want to be forced to sit 12 foot back when playing arcade games. I like to play at the same distance as the original arcade. 

[Titchgamer]

Playing on a large screen is awesome for shooting games (and driving games and flying games).

This is a video of me playing Alien 3 the gun on a 110" screen with the real arcade recoil gun:



The large screen definately makes it feel more immersive and the lag free fixed gun is a joy to use.

The main thing for a new light gun tech (that I might buy) is that it is not limited by distance or screen size. I don't want to be forced to sit 12 foot back when playing arcade games. I like to play at the same distance as the original arcade.

That aint really possible with fixed gun games though.

The gun is mounted pretty much immediately infront of the screen like maybe 12” back.

Allot of the light gun games though you could  stand pretty far back.
Obv every game is different but I can stand about the same distance from my A51 cab as I can with my Aim traks on my mame cab.
If you read the manual it actually states to calibrate the guns at full extension.
Admittedly I am not sure why as most people stand within distance to hit the start button but who knows.

[lettuce]

.... I really hope it will work on a projector screen at a reasonable distance (8 to 10 feet from a 7 foot screen or so).  So bring on the Kickstarter!

Well someone seems to be listening.

Virtua Cop on giant projector screen - Sinden Lightgun

Hmm can you not aim off screen to reload??

[Titchgamer]

.... I really hope it will work on a projector screen at a reasonable distance (8 to 10 feet from a 7 foot screen or so).  So bring on the Kickstarter!

Well someone seems to be listening.

Virtua Cop on giant projector screen - Sinden Lightgun

Hmm can you not aim off screen to reload??

Yeah off screen reload is supported by some emulators.

[Zebra]

Playing on a large screen is awesome for shooting games (and driving games and flying games).

This is a video of me playing Alien 3 the gun on a 110" screen with the real arcade recoil gun:



The large screen definately makes it feel more immersive and the lag free fixed gun is a joy to use.

The main thing for a new light gun tech (that I might buy) is that it is not limited by distance or screen size. I don't want to be forced to sit 12 foot back when playing arcade games. I like to play at the same distance as the original arcade.

That aint really possible with fixed gun games though.

The gun is mounted pretty much immediately infront of the screen like maybe 12” back.

Allot of the light gun games though you could  stand pretty far back.
Obv every game is different but I can stand about the same distance from my A51 cab as I can with my Aim traks on my mame cab.
If you read the manual it actually states to calibrate the guns at full extension.
Admittedly I am not sure why as most people stand within distance to hit the start button but who knows.

I am using a fixed gun in the video. If you build your own arcade controls, you can mount the guns wherever you want. On projection arcades, the gun pedestal is often separate to the screen / main cab anyway.

A few things I learned from my big screen fixed gun session:

Choosing the right type of projector and screen is key. I have a black projector screen designed to work with the lights on. It's great for movies but it requires that the projector be mounted as close to your eye level as possible. That's fine for watching TV but not so great when you are sat up in front of the screen shooting.

The best way to avoid issues is to use an ultra short throw so the projector is in front of you. The absolute best option, if you can one, is an LG Hecto "laser TV". They come with a 100" black screen that is designed to work with an ultra short throw with the lights on.

A second best choice would be to use a rear projection set-up if you have room. If not, a bright ceiling mounted projector with a grey or silver screen.

My Gunblade and T2 guns both worked very well on a large screen once they were recalibrate for the 4:3 image on a 16:9 screen.

[Titchgamer]

I was referring to original cabs not home built

[Zebra]

I was referring to original cabs not home built

I don't see how the issue applies to original cabs. On the original cabs the guns were mounted at the right distance for the size of screen. If you are using a front projection set-up then you clearly are not using the original cab (unless it's one like a super deluxe Terminator Salvation which uses a front projector).

The only real limitation for screen size with fixed guns is the gears / range of movement. I have tried a number of fixed guns and, so far, the only ones I had issues with were Taito fixed guns. For some reason they have a super restrictive range of movement so you would have to sit very far back for a 100"+ screen.

With Midway, Sega, Raw Thrills and Global VR fixed guns, I was able to aim at both corners on my 110" screen from around 8ft away (which is as close as you would want to sit to a screen that large).

[Titchgamer]

I was referring to original cabs not home built

I don't see how the issue applies to original cabs. On the original cabs the guns were mounted at the right distance for the size of screen. If you are using a front projection set-up then you clearly are not using the original cab (unless it's one like a super deluxe Terminator Salvation which uses a front projector).

The only real limitation for screen size with fixed guns is the gears / range of movement. I have tried a number of fixed guns and, so far, the only ones I had issues with were Taito fixed guns. For some reason they have a super restrictive range of movement so you would have to sit very far back for a 100"+ screen.

With Midway, Sega, Raw Thrills and Global VR fixed guns, I was able to aim at both corners on my 110" screen from around 8ft away (which is as close as you would want to sit to a screen that large).

That is exactly my point.

It is not possible to do that with a modern lightgun.

You need the distance for it to work so you will never be able to play T2 with a modern gun 12” from the screen like you would of done with the original.

[Howard_Casto]

You should be able to.  I mean you can in real life, so I think dismissing the idea is a bit premature. 

[Titchgamer]

You should be able to.  I mean you can in real life, so I think dismissing the idea is a bit premature.

The idea is premature.

Sure in the hopefully not so distant future you may be able to.

But atm it just aint there.

[dgrace]

Blue Estate 2 player dual gun support would be sweet. I know ArgonLefou is working on it but hasn't had much luck yet, to my knowledge.  Thanks

[SammyWI]

FYI, from his latest video description on Youtube:

"My new Kickstarter launch is planned for the first weekend in April in less than a month."

[Titchgamer]

And another new video to.

[lightgungamer]

And another new video. I haven't seen this game before. It looks fun.

[Titchgamer]

And another new video. I haven't seen this game before. It looks fun.

Yeah its a good game.
Played on Teknoparrot.

I played it with Andy when he brought me his prototype, My laptop aint man enough to run it though heh.