Air mouse light guns???

[MikeyJ122]

So today a thought occured to me, since the mouse is ALREADY designed to act as a lightgun in emulation, why hasn't anyone developed an actual product yet? I know aimtrack produces a lightgun with similar function, but you have to have that bar, plus they are not exactly cheap. It just seems like a no brainer, you just need a gun that the PC thinks is a mouse, trigger is left click, and a second button for right click.

I've been trying to find something like this, but no luck. Has anyone here developed such a thing?

[Titchgamer]

So today a thought occured to me, since the mouse is ALREADY designed to act as a lightgun in emulation, why hasn't anyone developed an actual product yet? I know aimtrack produces a lightgun with similar function, but you have to have that bar, plus they are not exactly cheap. It just seems like a no brainer, you just need a gun that the PC thinks is a mouse, trigger is left click, and a second button for right click.

I've been trying to find something like this, but no luck. Has anyone here developed such a thing?

There is something possibly in the pipeline.
Still waiting on final details though.

[Howard_Casto]

I'm confused by the question.  Act labs created several light guns over the years for the pc that acted as mice.  They weren't cheap either btw.  Light guns don't work on the lcd monitors thus why act labs guns use a sensor bar. 


As for the mouse thing... actually mouse emulation is probably the wrong way to go.  Reading individual mice requires raw input polling and while it is supported now I don't think it's one of those api's that Microsoft values and thus it could go away eventually.  If you think about it any modern game that is light gun like will mostly likely use the joystick anyway. 

There are some other ways to do it, but none of them are simple and thus I doubt any of them will be cheap.  If there are some AVR friendly positioning sensors that might be a route to go that wouldn't cost too much, but I'm not aware of any inexpensive ones that are accurate enough.  Sensors would have to be mounted to the bezel though. 

[MikeyJ122]

I just know for my model 2 games, I can use the mouse and didnt configure ANYTHING, it was just set up that way. I also know of a device called Air Mouse that you point at the screen and acts like a mouse. It just seems like an obvious solution to the lightgun issues. Is it better than aimtrack IDK, probably not. But using the air mouse technology I dont see why a light gun couldn't be created. It would probably be cheaper as well.

[Howard_Casto]

I think you are referring to gyroscopic mice...… they aren't a great solution because they can only determine their own relative position and have no clue where your monitor is.  They also get confused if you move super quickly, ect...  You can fix that via calibration but you have to constantly calibrate, ect. 

The model 2 emulator hasn't been updated in over 10 years, so it probably isn't the best example. 

[baritonomarchetto]

Apart from the drifting issue (which is a show stopper alone) the other main problem with gyro is that you can control only movements relative to non gravitational axis. In other words you have control on pich and roll axes, but not yaw. Show stopper #2.
Mouse can be absolute on some hardware (who said arduino!?) but you always need a first calibration to set your zero.
There's a sensible delay too.
I made some testing in the past with arduino with no luck.

[Titchgamer]

Like I said watch this space.
Will hopefully have some interesting news in the next week or 2.....

[MikeyJ122]

Like I said watch this space.
Will hopefully have some interesting news in the next week or 2.....

I plan on it!!!

[edgeofblade]

I tried this. After I started using the air mouse, I knew it was a nonstarter. Not accurate, kinda jerky, usually had to hold down or lock a key to engage tracking. Maybe it was a bad mouse, but I noted as soon as I rolled the mouse at all, the motion felt all off.

I don’t recommend attempting this. It was a disaster.

[Zebra]

What you want for Mame or any PC emulator is a directional gun. This is what a large portion of arcade gun games used (if not most of them) anyway.

They work with a pair of analog pots (x and Y).

You can buy a real arcade gun like one from T2 or, in my case, I bought an Operation Thunderbolt gun and wire the pots and trigger to an A-pack board which allows mame (or any emulator) to see the analog pots as a mouse and the trigger as a mouse click. Essentially, in this context, the A-PAC is a USB encoder for an arcade directional gun.

The wired set-up and fixed guns are a lot more reliable and accurate than an Aimtrak. It's not ideal for the few actual light gun games that are worth playing but still better than an Aimtrak. There are no genuinely good pc light gun solutions unless you invest close to $500.

With that said, apparently there are semi-functional windows 7 drivers for a Namco Guncon 2. I ran out of patience though and ended up buying a used PS2 (for $20) to play light gun games like Time Crisis 1, 2 and 3.

I don't know what an "air mouse" is or if it could work but, given mame's lack of gun calibration options, any solution would need a way of making adjustments which limits options.

[baritonomarchetto]

The directional gun is the only solution for me too, but let see what Titchgamer comes out with!

[shaolindrunkard]

Its been done. I think it depends on the quality of the Air Mouse. I just don't think anybody's ever shoved one into a gun yet, which for me is not super hard to do. Honestly never liked the Aimtracks, especially price vs performance. I bet if you got a good air mouse it wouldn't be too bad.

[MikeyJ122]

Its been done. I think it depends on the quality of the Air Mouse. I just don't think anybody's ever shoved one into a gun yet, which for me is not super hard to do. Honestly never liked the Aimtracks, especially price vs performance. I bet if you got a good air mouse it wouldn't be too bad.

I've watched this video, and a few others.  It seems a lot more plausible than some realize. At least it does to me anyways.

[Howard_Casto]

It's not.  it's been tried over the years and it doesn't perform any better than an aimtrack or wiimote.  You asked why... we told you why.  If you don't believe us that's fine, but I'm not sure why you asked then. 

[MikeyJ122]

It's not.  it's been tried over the years and it doesn't perform any better than an aimtrack or wiimote.  You asked why... we told you why.  If you don't believe us that's fine, but I'm not sure why you asked then.

I'm not saying "I dont believe you." But Titchgamer has stated that he knows it IS being worked on, so clearly it IS a possibility. Have you watched ETA Primes video on this? I think it works better than you realize. I'm not saying "it's better than aimtrack" or that its bound to be the ultimate solution for lightguns. But based upon my searches, it also doesn't seem like it's been a route thoroughly explored either.

I'm by no means arguing about this, maybe it's a complete dead end? That's why I started this thread. I've read a couple of people say it IS a dead end, but another say "stay tuned." So I'm gonna stay tuned and see for myself.

[shaolindrunkard]

It's not.  it's been tried over the years and it doesn't perform any better than an aimtrack or wiimote.  You asked why... we told you why.  If you don't believe us that's fine, but I'm not sure why you asked then.

I don't think hes saying its going to be better or perfect per say, but if its cheaper and wireless and without sensor bars then it worth a shot.

Since all the guns available for lcds use this kind mouse method and thats the best we have right now, then it doesn't hurt to discuss it.

[Osirus23]

I've conceded that light guns died with CRTs.

[Titchgamer]

It's not.  it's been tried over the years and it doesn't perform any better than an aimtrack or wiimote.  You asked why... we told you why.  If you don't believe us that's fine, but I'm not sure why you asked then.

I'm not saying "I dont believe you." But Titchgamer has stated that he knows it IS being worked on, so clearly it IS a possibility. Have you watched ETA Primes video on this? I think it works better than you realize. I'm not saying "it's better than aimtrack" or that its bound to be the ultimate solution for lightguns. But based upon my searches, it also doesn't seem like it's been a route thoroughly explored either.

I'm by no means arguing about this, maybe it's a complete dead end? That's why I started this thread. I've read a couple of people say it IS a dead end, but another say "stay tuned." So I'm gonna stay tuned and see for myself.

Just to be clear the project I know is being worked on is not based on a air mouse.

My comment was just to say that someone somewhere is working on another solution for modern light gun technology.

[MikeyJ122]

It's not.  it's been tried over the years and it doesn't perform any better than an aimtrack or wiimote.  You asked why... we told you why.  If you don't believe us that's fine, but I'm not sure why you asked then.

I'm not saying "I dont believe you." But Titchgamer has stated that he knows it IS being worked on, so clearly it IS a possibility. Have you watched ETA Primes video on this? I think it works better than you realize. I'm not saying "it's better than aimtrack" or that its bound to be the ultimate solution for lightguns. But based upon my searches, it also doesn't seem like it's been a route thoroughly explored either.

I'm by no means arguing about this, maybe it's a complete dead end? That's why I started this thread. I've read a couple of people say it IS a dead end, but another say "stay tuned." So I'm gonna stay tuned and see for myself.

Just to be clear the project I know is being worked on is not based on a air mouse.

My comment was just to say that someone somewhere is working on another solution for modern light gun technology.

Well I'm staying tuned regardless, lol.

[baritonomarchetto]

Me too! We all (and i mean ALL WITH NO EXCEPTIONS) want a cheap, affordable solution for gun games

[Howard_Casto]

Well the wiimotes are really cheap and almost turn-key so I'm only interested if it's easier to use or has better accuracy. 

[Zebra]

Its been done. I think it depends on the quality of the Air Mouse. I just don't think anybody's ever shoved one into a gun yet, which for me is not super hard to do. Honestly never liked the Aimtracks, especially price vs performance. I bet if you got a good air mouse it wouldn't be too bad.

I think that's right. The quality of the components and design seems to make a lot more difference than the choice of underlying technology.


The Raw Thrills and Namco arcade IR guns are excellent and feel very accurate and reliable. So far, nobody has made a decent or even passable home IR gun though. The arcade variety seems to utilize a lot more sensors which allows them to retain accuracy when people move or for different height players etc. using just two axis of motion tracking is not enough to retain line of site accuracy for IR sensors as you can change where you aim without moving the gun up, down, left or right.

[Howard_Casto]

Just something I ran across while looking at some of the newer solutions down the pipe....  As I've mentioned in the past, a NES zapper *should* work on NES games even on an lcd assuming the flash could be detected fast enough.  Well some clever hackers have decided to go the other way around and add a user-defined delay between the flashes on all the old NES roms.  John Riggs threw up a vid and it seems to work just fine.  That should work in nes emulators as well assuming the trigger and flash inputs are hooked up.


http://neslcdmod.com/ 


I need to look into the source of the NES/SNES classic.   It should be possible to map the flash and trigger to buttons and get things working on it as well. 

[Zebra]

Just something I ran across while looking at some of the newer solutions down the pipe....  As I've mentioned in the past, a NES zapper *should* work on NES games even on an lcd assuming the flash could be detected fast enough.  Well some clever hackers have decided to go the other way around and add a user-defined delay between the flashes on all the old NES roms.  John Riggs threw up a vid and it seems to work just fine.  That should work in nes emulators as well assuming the trigger and flash inputs are hooked up.


http://neslcdmod.com/ 

I saw that write up on another site a while ago. Their solution was curtainly clever and well beyond anything I could ever do but I couldn't help thinking that it was a lot of effort for very little reward.

I can understand people wanting to revisit duck hunt for nostalgia's sake but the Nes light gun was never that good and the library of games that used it was very weak IMO. There are better options for light gun gaming on old consoles.

I was just playing Time Crisis 3 on the PS2 with a Guncon 2. It was a real pleasure. Obviously, you still need a diy project to get an arcade quality shell and recoil but the accuracy is fantastic. Now is a great time to pick up some cheap PS2s and Dreamcast consoles with an old crt TV for people that like light gun games. That is the best generation of consoles for arcade gun games.

For me, part of the fun of gaming now is being able to revisit and play real arcade games that I would have killed to have at home when I was a kid. Nes, Master System and Genesis arcade games are not so exciting now that you can play the actual arcade roms instead of a port...

[Howard_Casto]

They are surprisingly fun though and for maybe a $8 investment in a third-party zapper and minimal effort you are off to the races. 

[Titchgamer]

I actually think the NES zapper is one of the best gun systems ever made!

No the NES does not have a amazing library of lightgun games but the shear simplicity of it was imo brilliant!

It never needs calibrating and never looses its tracking like later light guns.

It just works!

[Osirus23]

I actually think the NES zapper is one of the best gun systems ever made!

No the NES does not have a amazing library of lightgun games but the shear simplicity of it was imo brilliant!

It never needs calibrating and never looses its tracking like later light guns.

It just works!

I agree. It's so simple. It doesn't rely on positional or screen math to calculate where it's going to hit. It really does effectively look down the barrel and check if its pointed at a target.

The downside is it can't handle very many simultaneous targets on the screen since each trigger pull needs a separate flash for each possible target.